palestine - wheres the politics?

[scott thesocialist]

what do people think about palestine? it totally sickens me when i hear people talk about the terriosts that they are the ones to blame. the u.s.a give israel $5 billion in military aid every, the israeli government have broken countless un resolutions. they are not shooting and killing internation protesters. something needs to be done but what i ask you they, need our help!

[Invader Zim]

Both are equily to blame. The palistinians are fighting a pointless cause, there are about 3 million of them in neibouring countrys to fit in about 100 Miles square... impossible.

The whole conflict is as you can see pointless.

[scott thesocialist]

how can you say its pointless do you even know the facts? israel stole their land and kill tens of innocent peopel every week. the palestinians have the right to return to their home, and both aren't to blame if israel didn't invade and kill them, then they won't have a reason to kill them would they.

[Invader Zim]

So you suggest the murder of all the Jews that have lived there up to 3 generations? You suggest that they be thrown from there homes?

Perhaps *************** is a more sutible site for you.

[scott thesocialist]

how can they live there if they are dead? its also about the fact that israel break international rules everyday, one rule for them and another for others that doesn't sound right to me.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from AK47 on 4:40 pm on May 19, 2003
Both are equily to blame. The palistinians are fighting a pointless cause, there are about 3 million of them in neibouring countrys to fit in about 100 Miles square... impossible.

The whole conflict is as you can see pointless.


A pointless cause? Fighting for existence is pointless? How are they both to blame? The UN has specific sanctions against Israel keeping the occupied territories and yet they have been continually ignored. The Israeli's are also confiscating Palestinian private land at a rate of about 3 square miles per month, denying them even more of their land.

Where the hell do you come up with this 100 square mile figure? Modern day Palestine is approximately 2,410 square miles, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians have been continually pushed back and out since 1948. The West Bank alone has over 200 Jewish settlements at present.

So assuming your 3 million population figure is correct, then 2,410 sq. miles should be more than enough room for them to live.

Even considering your size figures, New York City is approximately 300 square miles. Roughly 8 million people live there and during a working day, there are as many as 11-12 million people.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Disgustapated on 2:12 pm on May 19, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 4:40 pm on May 19, 2003
Both are equily to blame. The palistinians are fighting a pointless cause, there are about 3 million of them in neibouring countrys to fit in about 100 Miles square... impossible.

The whole conflict is as you can see pointless.


A pointless cause? Fighting for existence is pointless? How are they both to blame? The UN has specific sanctions against Israel keeping the occupied territories and yet they have been continually ignored. The Israeli's are also confiscating Palestinian private land at a rate of about 3 square miles per month, denying them even more of their land.

Where the hell do you come up with this 100 square mile figure? Modern day Palestine is approximately 2,410 square miles, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians have been continually pushed back and out since 1948. The West Bank alone has over 200 Jewish settlements at present.

So assuming your 3 million population figure is correct, then 2,410 sq. miles should be more than enough room for them to live.

Even considering your size figures, New York City is approximately 300 square miles. Roughly 8 million people live there and during a working day, there are as many as 11-12 million people.

So you are suggesting that those Jewish people should be kicked out. Or do they not have the right to survial? You are a fool that seams obvious, you see as i clearly stated i support niether side, try reading posts.

Also Isreil is only around 8000 miles accross you expect them to give up a whole quater of there country and more, to a people who will allow then to be invaded by there neighbors. Basically to commit suicide, i dont think so.

100 square mile figure

The aproximate size of the Gaza Stip

2,410 sq. should be more than enough

You really are a fool, do you have any understanding that NY has a far larger are for farming. You cannot support that many people on such a small area, Rhode Island is 4 or 5 times bigger just to give you some idea of the scale. You expect 3 million be supported in an area 4 times smaller than Rhode Island. You really are a fool.

A pic to give you an idea of scale http://www.masada2000.org/isr-us1.gif

You expevt a quater of that tiny nation to beable to support 3 million people? Are you insane, especially when considering large preportions of the area is stoney desert or mountins.

I syimpathise for the Palistinian people but i see no way they can possibly expect what they are asking for.

- Isreil to commit suicide by opening her self up to attack
- Exspect the Jews to pack up and leave after several generations.
- Feed 3 million people in a tiny bit of stoney desert and mountinus land.

I can not see how it is possible.

israel stole their land

Dont even go there if you go back far enough Jews have been populating that region for thousands of years.

[scott thesocialist]

it wasn't israeli land and the arabs lived there before. thats how you'll fit the palestinians back into their own land cause they all lived there before or did you think that they just appeared to grow by the millions.so get your facts right and if your talking about land that people owned before, then i say give the usa back to the indians the rainforest tribes their land back and get the english the fuck out scotland, ireland and wales

[Pete]

Okay we should give the jews anartica and the palestinians greenland. that should stop the fighting between the two no?

Seriously that is what it sounds like when both sides argue with eachother.

[scott thesocialist]

its more than just the land its the politics, the israeli army get away with murder, the palestinians are called terrorists what defence do they have against a aggressor like sharon? Its about the refugees that live in there millions in gaza, west bank and other countries who understand their cause, its more than land its international politics one rule for them another for the rest.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from AK47 on 8:37 pm on May 19, 2003

Quote: from Disgustapated on 2:12 pm on May 19, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 4:40 pm on May 19, 2003
Both are equily to blame. The palistinians are fighting a pointless cause, there are about 3 million of them in neibouring countrys to fit in about 100 Miles square... impossible.

The whole conflict is as you can see pointless.


A pointless cause? Fighting for existence is pointless? How are they both to blame? The UN has specific sanctions against Israel keeping the occupied territories and yet they have been continually ignored. The Israeli's are also confiscating Palestinian private land at a rate of about 3 square miles per month, denying them even more of their land.

Where the hell do you come up with this 100 square mile figure? Modern day Palestine is approximately 2,410 square miles, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians have been continually pushed back and out since 1948. The West Bank alone has over 200 Jewish settlements at present.

So assuming your 3 million population figure is correct, then 2,410 sq. miles should be more than enough room for them to live.

Even considering your size figures, New York City is approximately 300 square miles. Roughly 8 million people live there and during a working day, there are as many as 11-12 million people.

So you are suggesting that those Jewish people should be kicked out. Or do they not have the right to survial? You are a fool that seams obvious, you see as i clearly stated i support niether side, try reading posts.

Also Isreil is only around 8000 miles accross you expect them to give up a whole quater of there country and more, to a people who will allow then to be invaded by there neighbors. Basically to commit suicide, i dont think so.

100 square mile figure

The aproximate size of the Gaza Stip

2,410 sq. should be more than enough

You really are a fool, do you have any understanding that NY has a far larger are for farming. You cannot support that many people on such a small area, Rhode Island is 4 or 5 times bigger just to give you some idea of the scale. You expect 3 million be supported in an area 4 times smaller than Rhode Island. You really are a fool.

A pic to give you an idea of scale http://www.masada2000.org/isr-us1.gif

You expevt a quater of that tiny nation to beable to support 3 million people? Are you insane, especially when considering large preportions of the area is stoney desert or mountins.

I syimpathise for the Palistinian people but i see no way they can possibly expect what they are asking for.

- Isreil to commit suicide by opening her self up to attack
- Exspect the Jews to pack up and leave after several generations.
- Feed 3 million people in a tiny bit of stoney desert and mountinus land.

I can not see how it is possible.

israel stole their land

Dont even go there if you go back far enough Jews have been populating that region for thousands of years.


You're the fool. Do you understand that the land the Israeli's are occupying they are doing so against UN resolutions. That capturing and expanding/occupying the territory is considered by the UN as illegitimate?

Or that the Palestinian Land is considered Gaza and the West Bank?

Why would it be suicide for Israel to vacate occupied territories? Your supposition is that the Palestinians would go on a murdering rampage once getting their land back. That's an absurd statement.

As far as the statement that the Jews have been inhabiting that region for thousands of years, so haven't Arabs/Palestinians. Are you saying that the Jews have more right to the territory than anyone else?

As for your pathetic argument about food and crop raising in an arid territory, people live there now don't they? It's not like the area is uninhabited is it? The West Bank has over 200 settlements. How do they support themselves now? How would anything change there now with regards to that? Your statement about NY having a larger area for farming is laughable at best. Do you honestly believe that every citizen of NYC (or even NY for that matter) is being fed by products grown and produced in NY? (hahahahaha).

The bottom line is that in 1948, Israel's borders were set and they didn't include the occupied territories. They have no legitimate claim to them.

[GCusack]

No way is it pointless AK!!! Israel need to b restricted!!! both sides are to blaim, yes but the Israelis do alot worse!!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 3:56 pm on May 19, 2003
it wasn't israeli land and the arabs lived there before. thats how you'll fit the palestinians back into their own land cause they all lived there before or did you think that they just appeared to grow by the millions.


Actually yes they did just grow by the millions you fool.

aproximatly 200,000 60 years ago every 20 years a new generation is born. Having on average say 3 children, (not sure about the real national average)

2.5 * 200000 = 500000

500000 * 2.5 = 1250000

1250000 * 2.5 = 3125000

When taking into account the national death rate after 60 years you can expect to lose most of the first generation to natural causes and old age perhaps 60%. 60% of 200,000 = 120000

3125000 - 120000 = 3005000

Approximatly 3 million.

Welcome to the world of natural increase in a NIC (newly industrialised country). Good old A - Level geography.



Why would it be suicide for Israel to vacate occupied territories? Your supposition is that the Palestinians would go on a murdering rampage once getting their land back. That's an absurd statement.


No but they would allow the other Arab nations who all hate Isreil to invade, like they did in the 60's. History does not lie. Isreil would be destroyed and the Jews forsed out. No amount of your willful thinking will stop that happening. The Arab nations have even publicaly admited that they would invade given the oppertunity.

You're the fool. Do you understand that the land the Israeli's are occupying they are doing so against UN resolutions. That capturing and expanding/occupying the territory is considered by the UN as illegitimate?

That is not indispute you idiot. I clearly stated earlier that i support neither side, and in many other threads i have stated that what the Isreilis have done is terrible. However that does not alter the fact that the Palistinian ideals of gaining there own state in that region are geographiacaly impossible to achive. As i have pointed out, maps dont lie.

Unless the palistinians imported enough food to support there country of 3,000,000 they could not grow enough food. Who is going to provide the money to give them the food exactly?

There whole idea is stupid, they would just not beable to support them selves, simple as that.

As for your pathetic argument about food and crop raising in an arid territory, people live there now don't they? It's not like the area is uninhabited is it?

No but its not going to be any where near 3,000,000 people is it, more live 3,00,000 at most. Also are you suggesting that all the Jews who have lived there for several generation just get killed or kicked out. NAZI alert, i think if that is what you are suggesting.

How would anything change there now with regards to that? Your statement about NY having a larger area for farming is laughable at best. Do you honestly believe that every citizen of NYC (or even NY for that matter) is being fed by products grown and produced in NY? (hahahahaha).

Of course not you fool. It has the entire USA several million square miles of farm land etc. It also ghas the money for forign imports, do you really think that a tiny little state with few national recources is goining to be able to afford the import of food, you really are a fool arent you.

its more than just the land its the politics, the israeli army get away with murder, the palestinians are called terrorists what defence do they have against a aggressor like sharon? Its about the refugees that live in there millions in gaza, west bank and other countries who understand their cause, its more than land its international politics one rule for them another for the rest.

Like i have said i dont support the Isreili's. But if you feal so badly about it, go off to Isreil and blow your self up for your impossible objectives. But im sure you dont have the balls to do something like that. All talk no action.

The bottom line is that in 1948, Israel's borders were set and they didn't include the occupied territories. They have no legitimate claim to them.

Those borders got taken when the palistinians supported an invasion by a cohilition of Arab countrys. It was a stratigic location being used to invade Isreil. Do you support the Invasion of Alsas Lorein by the germans because its the precise same situation, just in a different country and without the terrorists. Not that i think its right they have not given it back already. However the sheer numbers issue raises its head again. Mathimatical impossibility.

[scott thesocialist]

i was talking about since 1945 the popluation hasn't increased that much and for your theory that popluation must increased in scotland it is decreasing and thats a FACT. so you think the arabs will invade israel i don't they haven't got the balls to stand up 2 the u.s.a who back the idf. so in reality the israelis should stop killing the palestinians and fuck off back behind the borders which they where given, and then we will see what happends maybe a stop to the killing on both sides and the end of the suffering refugees who have been kicked out their homes and how about the end of the israelis destroying civilians homes!

[Sabocat]

Alright AK...let me put in a way that even you may be able to understand...


If I came over to the UK and kicked the ever loving shit out of you for constantly antagonizing me by calling me an idiot and a fool and even a Nazi, then took over your house, because what the hell, I just kicked the shit out of you, who's gonna stop me? Then because you now have no place to live, you call the police who then tell me to vacate the house, but I tell them to piss off, and they just shrug and leave me there, with you on the outside looking in, how would you feel about that?

I'm not going to argue this to death with you. You base all your argument on land mass size. I would suggest you read "Middle East Illusions" by Noam Chomsky. Then you'll maybe have a better understanding of the Palestinian situation.

I'll leave you this quote from General Moshe Dayan. (heard of him?) Speaking at funeral of a murdered friend.

"We must beware of blaming the murderers. Who are we to reproach them for hating us? Colonists who transform into Jewish homeland the territory they have lived in for generations."

(Edited by Disgustapated at 7:21 pm on May 20, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 2:09 pm on May 20, 2003
i was talking about since 1945 the popluation hasn't increased that much and for your theory that popluation must increased in scotland it is decreasing and thats a FACT. so you think the arabs will invade israel i don't they haven't got the balls to stand up 2 the u.s.a who back the idf. so in reality the israelis should stop killing the palestinians and fuck off back behind the borders which they where given, and then we will see what happends maybe a stop to the killing on both sides and the end of the suffering refugees who have been kicked out their homes and how about the end of the israelis destroying civilians homes!


Actually it has increased that much. As to your point about scotland you have to understand that Scotland has less people born per person. 1 family = 1 child most likley. That means that less people are born than die. Its fits in perfectly with "my" theory. It is not my theory it is a well known geographical theory created by some of historys finnest geographical minds. Its called natural increase and decrease.

If I came over to the UK and kicked the ever loving shit out of you for constantly antagonizing me by calling me an idiot and a fool and even a Nazi, then took over your house, because what the hell, I just kicked the shit out of you, who's gonna stop me? Then because you now have no place to live, you call the police who then tell me to vacate the house, but I tell them to piss off, and they just shrug and leave me there, with you on the outside looking in, how would you feel about that?

No let me put this in a way that you can understand. I agree with youthat the Isreilies have done terrible things and i dont support them at all, and agree that they should give the land back. I am mearly saying that they need far more land that palistine alone. It is very simple.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE ISREILIES IN THIS. You got that? Have i put it in simple enough words. Howmany times do i have to say it before you understand, i just think it is impractical thats all, i never said that there was no case for the palistinians. All i said was what they wanted was impractical and therefor pointless, i did not say they were not fundermentaly correct. The number of times i have had to say this makes me come to the conclusion that you are a fool.

so you think the arabs will invade israel i don't they haven't got the balls to stand up 2 the u.s.a who back the idf.

Didnt stop them last time, infact the only thing that did stop them was the Isreili air force.

so in reality the israelis should stop killing the palestinians and fuck off back behind the borders which they where given, and then we will see what happends maybe a stop to the killing on both sides and the end of the suffering refugees who have been kicked out their homes and how about the end of the israelis destroying civilians homes!

See my earlier comment to Disgustapated. But what i am saying is that realistically they need more land than the origional borders. It is that simple.

[Sabocat]

You keep stating over and over again that you don't support the Israeli's, yet you state in the same breath that the Palestinians quest for soverignty is "impractical and therefore pointless."

I would hope that you would understand that that statement looks like support for Israel. I think Palestinians would not consider their plight impractical and pointless.

[Blasphemy]

Unfortunately, the claim that establishing a Palestinian state is almost impossible isn't that far from reality.

Right now, there about one quarter of a million people living in Jewish settlements in the occupited Palestinian lands. Most of the settlers live in large residential concentrations, and only a few of them in desolate settlments that have no physical connection with Israel. So, evacuation the desolate settlers is possible, but then you will still have close to 230,000-240,000 settlers living in large towns, right by the Green Line.

They are the main problem. Evicting such a large number of people from their homes will cause chaos, maybe even a civil war. It is impossible to take tens of thousands of people and just move them. The military tried to dismantle a small 50 people settlement last year, and utterly failed due to the heavy resistence the soldiers met there. People from all over the country came to prevent the dismantling of the settlement. So, after a few days of struggles, the military shamefully pulled back. You can only imagine what will happen when they try and evacuate a 10,000 people settlement like Givat Zeev - as I said, chaos.

Establishing a Palestinian state with the settlements is also impossible, because it will create impossible borders. The only practical solutions is that the Jewish settlers, if they wish to continue living in the settlements, will have to renounce their Israeli citizenship, and accept a Palestinian one. Another option is that they will be foreign citizens in the Palestinian state. These are the only pragmatic solutions, and they are also hard to execute. Once again, the settleres will not accept such a solution, and opposition will be strong, on the Israeli as well as on the Palestinian side.

The issue of the settlemets is a delicate, complicated one. You have to understand the demographic situation, which is quite complex. Saying that Israel should just evacuate all the settlements is a very nice thing to say, and it is also very correct, but it is just not possible.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Disgustapated on 3:19 pm on May 20, 2003
You keep stating over and over again that you don't support the Israeli's, yet you state in the same breath that the Palestinians quest for soverignty is "impractical and therefore pointless."

I would hope that you would understand that that statement looks like support for Israel. I think Palestinians would not consider their plight impractical and pointless.


I am not saying the palistinians should not have a home land but if your going to find a people willing to be kicked out like Blasphemy pointed out, and an area large enough to support 3,000,000 people then i am all ears. But until then i will stick by my statment that what they are attempting to achive is a geographical impossibility, and there for impossible.

If you know that something is impossible do you spend a lot of time to achive it? I would call that pointless. However i suppose that there efforts do have a point, just a very impractical one well int the bounds of impossible. So what they are doing is just impossible not pointless.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

FIRSTLY, can those of you who have said it stop saying JEWS. Religion has nothing to do with this.

Secondly, both sides are not to blame, whoever said that. You have been told that already. This is an ancient rivalry. But the recent acts of the Israeli's have been hanes. The sprawl of Israeli settlements built on Palestinian soil is an infringement of law.

The only infringements of law we're told about though are those committed by the Palestinian "terrorists". As many of you have pointed out, the Palestinian freedom fighters are only doing what they need to do to exist.

What people need to do is look into the history if this. Go back further than the creation of the new Israeli state.

AK47, the plight of the Palestinians is NOT impossible. The land that is rightfully theirs is easily enough for them all to inhabit. What do you think they fight for?

Tulkarm, Janin, Nabulus, Jericho, Ram Allah, Hebron, Gaza, Khan Yunis, Rafah.....these lands all belong to the Palestinian people. But they have all been raped from them. This land will house all the Palestinian people.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 6:52 pm on May 20, 2003


AK47, the plight of the Palestinians is NOT impossible. The land that is rightfully theirs is easily enough for them all to inhabit. What do you think they fight for?

Tulkarm, Janin, Nabulus, Jericho, Ram Allah, Hebron, Gaza, Khan Yunis, Rafah.....these lands all belong to the Palestinian people. But they have all been raped from them. This land will house all the Palestinian people.

AK47, the plight of the Palestinians is NOT impossible. The land that is rightfully theirs is easily enough for them all to inhabit. What do you think they fight for?


Maps and geography do not lie Socialsmo. I have already showed you that. You expect 3 million people to lives soley on a piece of deasert and mountin, with a thin valley (very thin only a few miles wide in some places). Practically it cant be done, not with the large numbers. This completly leaves aside whats right and whats wrong with the situation, just the practicalitys of the situation. (or impracticalitys to be more precise)

You are suggesting that the Isreil's just get kicked out then are you, the only solution to the problem you put forward, is that they are executed or kicked out of there home's. Are you sure that you really want that?

the Palestinian freedom fighters are only doing what they need to do to exist.


Or perhaps they could give up there arms make a treaty with the Isreil's and live in peace, but that idea is way to radical for you im sure. :P Or vise versa

Tulkarm, Janin, Nabulus, Jericho, Ram Allah, Hebron, Gaza, Khan Yunis, Rafah.....these lands all belong to the Palestinian people. But they have all been raped from them. This land will house all the Palestinian people.

As i have said i agree.
READ THE FUCKING POST

How many times do i have to say that before i finally get it through to you guys. I AGREE, Jesus your going to drive me insane at this rate.

What people need to do is look into the history if this. Go back further than the creation of the new Israeli state.


If you go back far enough then niether side have any claim to the land. But who cares about the history, thats not the problem the present is. Jews (as in the religios element as well as the people, have been living there for thousands of years, long before the birth of the Islamic faith, so dont bring history into this.

The sprawl of Israeli settlements built on Palestinian soil is an infringement of law.


So's invading Isreil in the 6 day war in the 60's (which the palistinans started i must add), causing the Isreil's to invade your country. But were on history again.

The only infringements of law we're told about though are those committed by the Palestinian "terrorists".

Do you actually listen to the news. Nearly every week or month you here of new Isreili attrocitys agianst the Palistinians. If there's one thing which you cant accuse the BBC of being its not bias on this subject. It is quite literaly always reporting attrocitys commted by the Isreili state and vise versa. It is very fair.

This land will house all the Palestinian people.

You believe your own foolish ideas then, even though they goe agianst the basic principals of all human geography and economics.

Also another impracticality is easily spotted. Even if the Arab nations did not use palistine to invade Isreil (which i find highly unlikley that they would not) then how would palistine operate, considering the two parts of the nation would have a massive gap between them. I will show you.

http://www.masada2000.org/4-c.jpg

Again more geographic impracticalitys There a gap between the Gaza strip and the west bank. They spit germany up like that that had a major economic disaster because of it. How would they communicate, you can be sure that the Isreil's would not be helpful allowing people to just cross over as they want. What about the transportation of the little food they have, that would make it very difficult and expensive as well.

I think that any one with half a brain cell can see that this is completly impossible. NO WAY. Not that i disagree with the motives, but just the practicality of what they want.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

"You are suggesting that the Isreil's just get kicked out then are you, the only solution to the problem you put forward, is that they are executed or kicked out of there home's. Are you sure that you really want that?"

I don't want innocent Israeli's executed. I wouldn't care if the leaders did. But that's beyond my point. They would only need to be kicked out of "their" homes because of the faults of their government. They can then take it up with them.

I did understand that you agree the situation is unfair. But I disagree that it is impractical. And if it is, it is only the fault of the Israeli government.

"Or perhaps they could give up there arms make a treaty with the Isreil's and live in peace, but that idea is way to radical for you im sure. :P Or vise versa"

It's like with Saddam though. How long do the Palestinians have to wait for diplomatic resolutions? Yasser Arafat told the UN YEARS ago "I hold in my hand an olive branch and a gun....do not make me drop this olive branch" Well, it just had to be dropped.

I know I didn't go through all of what you said. All of it is very true and valid of course. But there's always another side to anything on this issue....except the fact that the Palestinian people need the land which is rightfully theirs.

It's the world's most complicated situation. It shouldn't be so, but history has made it so. I fear, as we all do I think, that this will not be solved any time soon. All I can say is God Bless Itzhak Rabin and may those who killed him burn.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 9:09 pm on May 20, 2003
"You are suggesting that the Isreil's just get kicked out then are you, the only solution to the problem you put forward, is that they are executed or kicked out of there home's. Are you sure that you really want that?"

I don't want innocent Israeli's executed. I wouldn't care if the leaders did. But that's beyond my point. They would only need to be kicked out of "their" homes because of the faults of their government. They can then take it up with them.

I did understand that you agree the situation is unfair. But I disagree that it is impractical. And if it is, it is only the fault of the Israeli government.

"Or perhaps they could give up there arms make a treaty with the Isreil's and live in peace, but that idea is way to radical for you im sure. :P Or vise versa"

It's like with Saddam though. How long do the Palestinians have to wait for diplomatic resolutions? Yasser Arafat told the UN YEARS ago "I hold in my hand an olive branch and a gun....do not make me drop this olive branch" Well, it just had to be dropped.

I know I didn't go through all of what you said. All of it is very true and valid of course. But there's always another side to anything on this issue....except the fact that the Palestinian people need the land which is rightfully theirs.

It's the world's most complicated situation. It shouldn't be so, but history has made it so. I fear, as we all do I think, that this will not be solved any time soon. All I can say is God Bless Itzhak Rabin and may those who killed him burn.

They would only need to be kicked out of "their" homes because of the faults of their government. They can then take it up with them.

You cant just go up to a bunch of people and tell them to piss off even though they have lived there for upto 3 generation, that would be even more immoral than what they are doing to the palistinians. At least the palistinians are aloud in the country.


(Edited by AK47 at 11:34 am on May 21, 2003)

[Zombie]

"All I can say is God Bless Itzhak Rabin and may those who killed him burn. "

i hear ya.

AK47, what's up with that last post of yours.

[scott thesocialist]

so wheres the politics the land belongs to the palestinians right? the israelis are breaking international laws right? the israelis are breaking international law everyday by building new settlements, killing civillians from across the world right? the israelis control the movements of the palestinians by closing the roads so that can't go to work to make money to feed thier kids right? so tell me who is in the wrong here and must be stopped?

[scott thesocialist]

some web pages if anyone is interested
www.freepalestinecampaign.org
www.palsolidarity.org
www.pflp-pal.org

[Invader Zim]

Hmm my last post occured in a server down point and i had to refresh the page afew time, it must have lost the material... Ok a major edit is in order.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 10:47 am on May 21, 2003
so wheres the politics the land belongs to the palestinians right? the israelis are breaking international laws right? the israelis are breaking international law everyday by building new settlements, killing civillians from across the world right? the israelis control the movements of the palestinians by closing the roads so that can't go to work to make money to feed thier kids right? so tell me who is in the wrong here and must be stopped?



so tell me who is in the wrong here and must be stopped?

I do not agree with this website at all really however it does raise some questions about the moralisty of the war. Before you read it do understand that i do not agree with most of what it says however it does show the situation from another angle i think you guys should at least be aware of even if you dont agree. Basically just read it and feal free to rip its arguments: -

Lame ideas, good maps (http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html)

[sc4r]

This problem like many many others (Ireland springs to mind) cannot be resolved within the established paradigm of nations and nationalities.

If you view land and territory as belonging to an exclusive group of people then you will always be faced with the problem of what to do when one part of that group decides that they want to exist under different laws than the rest.

The practical consequence is what we see all the time. A group bonds and forgets its differences only until such time as the obvious enemy is defeated - then it splinters and the calls that 'this bit is ours' are renewed with altered parameters for inclusion. Alliances may be made with larger groups and then nations expand, or one of the sub groups becomes powerful enough to enforce its self declared boundaries and then devolution occurs. Its a never ending merry go round in which all sides can bring arguments which satisfy themselves (but never the other side) that they have right on their side.

As always the central problem is the docrine of 'ownership' which as socialists we really ought to recognise is a crock.

The facts are :

1) Israel is paranoid and Israelis have nowhere else to go.
2) Palestinians are disadvantaged and have nowhere else to go.
3) Both sides want to exclusively write the laws that govern behaviour in the same physical space.
4) They cant both do it
5) Both believe strongly in ownership.
6) Both believe they are fundamentally different from the other

There is no solution within a capitalist paradigm. At best there will eventually be a winner.

Emotionally I tend to side with palestinians (because they are the underdog) but intellectually there is nothing to choose between them; both do their utmost to exert the maximum force they can get away with to see that their particular side wins.

The only solution lies in getting both sides to accept that their is no divine right to anything and getting both to see themselves as equal citizens. Practically this DOES involve persuading Israeli's to accept the worse end of any deal (because they are the ones who currently have the better deal).

Can international socialism and its solution of common ownership be instilled in these sides ? No chance, not in the short term. We should not waste time trying to help two sets of capitalists resolve their differences just because one of them is a lot weaker than the other.

If there is a solution is lies at a lower level. Find a way to let individual SOCIALISTS on either side come together and voluntarily share what they do own (under either lawset). This requires a hellava lot more trust from each than would be ideal, but we at least should support it and as far as possible facilitate it.

Socialism is lacking power to deliver international support and it badly needs to find a way to provide it. It is our challenge to find it.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

scottthesocialist,

"so tell me who is in the wrong here and must be stopped?"

As in any conflict...everyone involved is in the wrong for something. Most in the wrong...well, not suprisingly it's, in my opinion, the USA.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 2:51 pm on May 21, 2003
scottthesocialist,

"so tell me who is in the wrong here and must be stopped?"

As in any conflict...everyone involved is in the wrong for something. Most in the wrong...well, not suprisingly it's, in my opinion, the USA.

Agreed

[RAM]

I can't stand Israel at the moment with its settlement demolition and just generally pissing off the Pulsations. The reason why we have all of these suicide bombing is because there are a large amount of young people who can't find work and have nothing better to do but bomb Israel! Also some of them have lived in a refugee camp since 1948!

Israel give the Palatines a break!

Do you also reckon that the Second Coming of Jesus plays a part in Israel’s policy on Jerusalem? The Pre-Millennialism view of Revelation 20. The Second Coming of Christ when he well literally reign on earth in Jerusalem becuase before hand things will get progreessibly worse becuase of the Devil will be deciving the nations and weakening the church? (I know that there are Jews in Israel!)

[scott thesocialist]

they have nothing better to do? are you fucking stupid these people are fighting for their land their fucking lives and the lives of their family and friends.
and whats this about jesus and that shit do you even know what your talking about?
i agree the usa is in the wrong it seems they have their hand in every pie in the world.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 5:10 pm on May 22, 2003
they have nothing better to do? are you fucking stupid these people are fighting for their land their fucking lives and the lives of their family and friends.
and whats this about jesus and that shit do you even know what your talking about?
i agree the usa is in the wrong it seems they have their hand in every pie in the world.


"Do you also reckon that the Second Coming of Jesus plays a part in Israel’s policy on Jerusalem? The Pre-Millennialism view of Revelation 20. The Second Coming of Christ when he well literally reign on earth in Jerusalem becuase before hand things will get progreessibly worse becuase of the Devil will be deciving the nations and weakening the church? (I know that there are Jews in Israel!) "



Holy fuck.

I guess you have to expect this from someone with a goofy football player avatar and the players stats for his quote. Gotta be a midwest guy. You know...bible belt and all....

[scott thesocialist]

i'm not really into religion in fact i don't believe in god. i'm saying there isn't a god people can belive in one, its got fuck all to do with me. so you see i can't really coment on the jesus part.
every war has been over religion or its had a big part to play.

[kylie]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 1:05 pm on May 22, 2003

every war has been over religion or its had a big part to play.
Jesus, christianity, and religion in general had nothing to do with the cause of world war one, two, the gulf wars, the Falklands, Vietnam, the Korean war, the various civil wars in Africa,. The cause of these, as with most other wars, has been imperialism. Either competing imperialists, or one imperialist oppressing a smaller country.

[scott thesocialist]

I'm sorry man calm down, can't we make mistakes and not say what we really mean cause i couldn't be fucked. but in the past some wars did involve religion, the arabs in spain the romans in europe. i don't even what to get involved like i said i don't care for religion and i don't know anything about it and i don't wish to.

[Blasphemy]

It seems that you are all ignoring the main point - the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, but establishing such a state in the occupied territories is simply IMPOSSIBLE, it can't be done! Arguing about Israel's crimes and how unfortunate the Palestinians are is all very nice, but eventually, no one has a pragmatic solution. You can't just establish a state in the territories for reasons I have mentioned in my previous reply. You are wasting your time supporting something that cannot exist. We should stop looking at the conflict as such a simple one that you can solve by doing a very simple thing like establishing a state. The conflict is very complex, and every pragmatic solution for it will be just as complex, but you are all ignoring this.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 2:48 pm on May 22, 2003
It seems that you are all ignoring the main point - the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, but establishing such a state in the occupied territories is simply IMPOSSIBLE, it can't be done!

I SEE YOU'RE IGNORING HOW THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

[Zombie]

Guardia is making somewhat a strong statement there..

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

But it's takent he words out of my mouth...

That is the point behind this all..

And whoever brought religion into this argument is just ignorant. This war has NOTHING to do with religion. And those who believe it is have just been brainwashed by mentions of Judaism against Islam in the media.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 4:10 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Blasphemy on 2:48 pm on May 22, 2003
It seems that you are all ignoring the main point - the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, but establishing such a state in the occupied territories is simply IMPOSSIBLE, it can't be done!

I SEE YOU'RE IGNORING HOW THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!


Actually the territory was created in a British protectorate in a sparsly populated piece of desert. When the Arab countrys ivaded via the occupied countrys the Isreil's captured the tactically advantagious positions to protect there new nation. It was never an occupied territoy until the 60's, it would not ever had been if the palistinians and other arab partys had not invaded.

Shows how little history you have read on this. The Isreil's should have given the land back after the ending of the war, but the Arab's should not have invaded.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Why should they have not invaded?

[Zombie]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 1:16 pm on May 22, 2003
But it's takent he words out of my mouth...

That is the point behind this all..

And whoever brought religion into this argument is just ignorant. This war has NOTHING to do with religion. And those who believe it is have just been brainwashed by mentions of Judaism against Islam in the media.


Clearly you have never set foot in the Middle East, or at least in that part of it.
It's very black and white, or most of it ; the Jews hate the Muslims, who hate the Christians, who hate them back etc etc.
Yes there's always a small minority of tolerant people, but have you ever tried to go to Saudi Arabia or Lebanon and tell everyone you were Jew? You would not get the warmest of welcomes.
The situation is that fucking delicate, and religion, unfortunately, is playing it's deadly part in the conflict.

.A.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from AK47 on 7:14 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 4:10 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Blasphemy on 2:48 pm on May 22, 2003
It seems that you are all ignoring the main point - the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, but establishing such a state in the occupied territories is simply IMPOSSIBLE, it can't be done!

I SEE YOU'RE IGNORING HOW THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!


Actually the territory was created in a British protectorate in a sparsly populated piece of desert. When the Arab countrys ivaded via the occupied countrys the Isreil's captured the tactically advantagious positions to protect there new nation. It was never an occupied territoy until the 60's, it would not ever had been if the palistinians and other arab partys had not invaded.

Shows how little history you have read on this. The Isreil's should have given the land back after the ending of the war, but the Arab's should not have invaded.


I never denied those events seems stupid on your part to use history when I'm talking about an Israeli state.
Since the state of Israel exists the palestinians have the right to their own state just like they explain It in the peace negotiations and most importanly what is oficially written in the UN. Don't forget that the declaration of the state of Israel also contained the creation of a palestinian state.

But going back to your great imperialist heroes.
Well they are the primre reason to blame for most of today's civil war and cultural tension.
Keep that in mind before you post anything about the greatness of brittish empire or any other empire.

BTW read up on UN declarations.

[Vinny Rafarino]

AK. Before the terrorist state of isreal was created, jews were arab. You make very valid, educated points and even provide excellent graphics. I also agree with you that it is a lost cause and NOT WORTHY of any good socialist revolutionary's time. We've got other things to accomplish correct? However, Scott IS correct in what he says. Anglo-Isrealies have no right to the land that they took by major military action from palestine. I applaud the PLO for not giving in, but their war cannot help mine to any favourable degree. So in turn, It really should not matter to any of us....3 whole generations huh??

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 3:33 am on May 23, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 7:14 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 4:10 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Blasphemy on 2:48 pm on May 22, 2003
It seems that you are all ignoring the main point - the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, but establishing such a state in the occupied territories is simply IMPOSSIBLE, it can't be done!

I SEE YOU'RE IGNORING HOW THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!


Actually the territory was created in a British protectorate in a sparsly populated piece of desert. When the Arab countrys ivaded via the occupied countrys the Isreil's captured the tactically advantagious positions to protect there new nation. It was never an occupied territoy until the 60's, it would not ever had been if the palistinians and other arab partys had not invaded.

Shows how little history you have read on this. The Isreil's should have given the land back after the ending of the war, but the Arab's should not have invaded.


I never denied those events seems stupid on your part to use history when I'm talking about an Israeli state.
Since the state of Israel exists the palestinians have the right to their own state just like they explain It in the peace negotiations and most importanly what is oficially written in the UN. Don't forget that the declaration of the state of Israel also contained the creation of a palestinian state.

But going back to your great imperialist heroes.
Well they are the primre reason to blame for most of today's civil war and cultural tension.
Keep that in mind before you post anything about the greatness of brittish empire or any other empire.

BTW read up on UN declarations.


seems stupid on your part to use history when I'm talking about an Israeli state.

But you said that Blasphemy was ignoring how the state came into being... I am not, that was all i was showing.

Also the state never came into being with a war as some poeple seam to think. Just a few minor corrections.

But going back to your great imperialist heroes.

WTF???

Keep that in mind before you post anything about the greatness of brittish empire or any other empire.

Again wtf are you chatting about, is this some sort of half assed attempt at a flame?

What the hell does the British empire have to do with my stance on this subject. When did i praise the empire in this thread.

:confused:

[Blasphemy]

Guardia, when Israel was founded, thousands of innocent Palestinians were removed from their homes, some through the use of force on the Zionists' part, some left because of their leaders. Ultimately, I think that about 500,000 innocent men and women were removed, and didn't come back. Does that seem right to you? Do you think that removing 250,000 from their homes in the territories is a fair compensation? Of course the settlers shouldn't be in the territories, but forcing them out of their homes is just as immoral and unjust and forcing a Palestinian out of his home. It is very unlikely that the settlers will leave voluntaringly, so we are facing a very difficult problem. Oversimplyfing reality in such an extreme fashion as you are doing is not beneficial to anybody.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from AK47 on 8:58 am on May 23, 2003

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 3:33 am on May 23, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 7:14 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 4:10 pm on May 22, 2003

Quote: from Blasphemy on 2:48 pm on May 22, 2003
It seems that you are all ignoring the main point - the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, but establishing such a state in the occupied territories is simply IMPOSSIBLE, it can't be done!

I SEE YOU'RE IGNORING HOW THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!


Actually the territory was created in a British protectorate in a sparsly populated piece of desert. When the Arab countrys ivaded via the occupied countrys the Isreil's captured the tactically advantagious positions to protect there new nation. It was never an occupied territoy until the 60's, it would not ever had been if the palistinians and other arab partys had not invaded.

Shows how little history you have read on this. The Isreil's should have given the land back after the ending of the war, but the Arab's should not have invaded.


I never denied those events seems stupid on your part to use history when I'm talking about an Israeli state.
Since the state of Israel exists the palestinians have the right to their own state just like they explain It in the peace negotiations and most importanly what is oficially written in the UN. Don't forget that the declaration of the state of Israel also contained the creation of a palestinian state.

But going back to your great imperialist heroes.
Well they are the primre reason to blame for most of today's civil war and cultural tension.
Keep that in mind before you post anything about the greatness of brittish empire or any other empire.

BTW read up on UN declarations.


seems stupid on your part to use history when I'm talking about an Israeli state.

But you said that Blasphemy was ignoring how the state came into being... I am not, that was all i was showing.

Also the state never came into being with a war as some poeple seam to think. Just a few minor corrections.

But going back to your great imperialist heroes.

WTF???

Keep that in mind before you post anything about the greatness of brittish empire or any other empire.

Again wtf are you chatting about, is this some sort of half assed attempt at a flame?

What the hell does the British empire have to do with my stance on this subject. When did i praise the empire in this thread.

:confused:


I was talking about how the state of Israel was created politicaly no religion no war I mean by international law.

If I were talking to you you would have known what I meant.

Funny but Blasphemy already had a reply with no mention of they "shouldn't have invaded " or the land was a "desert wasteland".

Thing is you always jump in these topics without even reading the posts.

And of course you always use your Brittish empire to justyfy everything.

Saying that the arabs should have respected the brittish made border is crap the only laws that HAVE to be respected and often are not are the UN laws.

I'm I defending arab attacks? No

But I'm also saying anything one country did to "take care of others" on It's own is crap.


"half assed attempt at a flame?"

Take It anyway you want , but If you're going to spam in politics please don't use my posts to spam with.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 12:55 pm on May 23, 2003
Guardia, when Israel was founded, thousands of innocent Palestinians were removed from their homes, some through the use of force on the Zionists' part, some left because of their leaders. Ultimately, I think that about 500,000 innocent men and women were removed, and didn't come back. Does that seem right to you? Do you think that removing 250,000 from their homes in the territories is a fair compensation? Of course the settlers shouldn't be in the territories, but forcing them out of their homes is just as immoral and unjust and forcing a Palestinian out of his home. It is very unlikely that the settlers will leave voluntaringly, so we are facing a very difficult problem. Oversimplyfing reality in such an extreme fashion as you are doing is not beneficial to anybody.


I agree with you on that Blasphemy.

But I believe that the problem is "simple" to end politicaly but impossible to put into action.

The arabs are against the existence of Israel.

Israel has the right to exist regardless of It's politics or religious views.

But like I said before Officialy two states were created Israel and Palestine.

The jews already have what they wanted.
A state of their own.

So for peace they have to compromise. On the human aspect It's sad that jewis settlelers would get driven away.

But moraly what their doing is wrong.

And that's the thing Israel has to agree to "loose" in some points like the settlements.

Peace will never come is Israel and Palestine don't get ready to end some of their pretensions.

And the "colonies" will have to be mooved If they truelly ever want that peace.

And It wouldn't be the palestinians responsability but the Isreali goverments responsability since It's part of their politics.

They have to respect the palestinians territories.

[Blasphemy]

Of course the settlers should be removed and the settlements dismantled, for they are the biggest risk to all the residents of Israel-Palestine. But practically, removing 250,000 people from their homes without heniously hurting human rights and physically hurting the people is impossible. Such a move may be supported as part of some "historical justice" being done to the Palestinians, but justice which is achieved through crimes committed against human rights isn't worth anything in my eyes. That is why some form of a Jewish-Arab federation is the only possible and most just solution. But of course, it has its risks. The rise of fanaticism in Israel and amongst the Palestinian is perilous, and the problem is making the people believe in peace, though we are very far from it, especially due to the settlements.

[Zombie]

Do you think that removing 250,000 from their homes in the territories is a fair compensation?

Let's assume you and your family were forced out of your house for no rationnal reason whatsoever. Now, there's a brand new bourgeois family living and sleeping under what used to be your roof. You are out on the streets, a couple of blocks away, with no real shelter. Even worse, what few shelters there was, are being destroyed by the same kind of people that stole your house in the first place.
Are you implying that you should not attempt to gain back your due, because that would hurt the people already living in your old domicile?
In my opinion, no agressor should EVER deserve pity. Those Jewish settlers are happily taking the piss out of those Palestinians, and taking their land. Am I for removing them? F'cking right I am. Sometimes, fighting fire with fire is the only option you got, specially after everything else has failed.

.A.

[Blasphemy]

And if the Palestinians manage to get their lands back by force, the settlers will look upon these lands as their own, and will try to gain them back by force. What you are suggesting is an endless cycle of violence and blood that will only break once one side is utterly destroyed. You are not offering any coexistence, just violence as a legitimate method to solve conflicts.

As I have stated endless times in the past, the settlements must be removed so a Palestinian homeland could be established. When using force to drive people away you are breeding more hatred, that not even the most peaceful local leader will be able to deal with. When you have 250,000 pissed off fanatics, that enjoy the support of many other people, things cannot turn out good. The people in Israel, including people from the left, will not support a forced expulsions of the settlers because such an expulsion violates human rights. It will create massive opposition within Israel. As we see today, the settlers are backing away from their stances. After the unofficial publication of the American Road Map, the settlers published their own "peace" plan, according to which the Palestinians will control some areas of the territories. For us such a suggestion seems ridiculous, and justly so, but for the settlers this is a huge compromise that also sets a precedent. Until now, the settlers uncompromisignly opposed any kind of Palestinian sovereignity, and such a reservation from their original policy will make it easier for them in the future to pull back a little more. It is, of couse, a slow process, but one that shows a positive process in the Israeli society and amongst the right wing. A forced move that will expell the settlers will send everything down to waste.

The issue of the settlements needs to be dealed with surgically. It is a matter that will need years of patience before it is concluded.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Well my idea is simple the WILL to do the job.

Look at Kosovo and Iraq.
Many problems an relatively quick actions.

What has to be done is to create a sort of KFOR for Israel Isolate the palestinians from attacking the jews or recieving weapons.

Isolate the Israelies from getting US made helicopters and other high teck materials used for war as well as creating no fly zones.

This will prevent any fighting and would make the final peace accords easier and inevitable.

I'm not saying this will happen or that It can be done.

But I really feel that the people involded in the peace project don't really want peace!

The internationnal community should have more do to with this.

And I really doubt some Israeli postures like for instance being nuclear.

I think that the US-Israel relations are the ones making the crasis worst, especially with all these new wars that only create more hate and tension.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Zombie on 7:13 pm on May 23, 2003
Do you think that removing 250,000 from their homes in the territories is a fair compensation?

Let's assume you and your family were forced out of your house for no rationnal reason whatsoever. Now, there's a brand new bourgeois family living and sleeping under what used to be your roof. You are out on the streets, a couple of blocks away, with no real shelter. Even worse, what few shelters there was, are being destroyed by the same kind of people that stole your house in the first place.
Are you implying that you should not attempt to gain back your due, because that would hurt the people already living in your old domicile?
In my opinion, no agressor should EVER deserve pity. Those Jewish settlers are happily taking the piss out of those Palestinians, and taking their land. Am I for removing them? F'cking right I am. Sometimes, fighting fire with fire is the only option you got, specially after everything else has failed.

.A.


yes but how quickly would it be the Jews in the place of the palistinians, and how quickly would it be the palistinians being the oppressors, in the eyes of the Mob?

Then back to square one, bombings, killings military murder. But it would be the Jews who are being oppressed.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Great point AK....notice how that one stopped the thread for 3 days...cheers!

We ALL should agree that Isreal is wrong. We should also ALL agree that there is nothing to be done about it.
With the US systematically taking over the middle east it makes it even more of an impossibility, and it was impossible even before the US occupied Iraq.

[red rich]

if you rekon nothin can be done about it, why waste your time typin about it? should the whole thing just be ignored? surely we should be putting as much pressure on our govmnts to become involved in a peacekeeping roles and to stop giving bloody arms companies tax breaks and allowing them to deal with genocidal bampots? i m not sayin ave got the answers but i think giving in to a problem such as this is totally defeatist and needs to be addressed if humans are every to acheieve a socialist plant

[red rich]

that last words meant to be planet

[Vinny Rafarino]

Thanks for the spurring. Your post was quite eloquent.
It makes me want to strap some explosives to my chest and detonate myself right in the centre of Jerusalem...That would be bang-up wouldn't it mate? In more ways then one I reckon. Why does a fight between two religious fundamentalist groups matter to you? Neither of them support socialism and are in no way willing to advance the movement. Why not simply allow them to soften up each other's military and drop the morale of their populace to the point where socialist subversionists can begin to mobilise their populace when they are at their most vulnerable. Fuck all!!! That sounds easy enough eh mate??

[Pete]

RAF, you are a smart ass strapped inside a socialist's body. Welcome to this site! Although I know you've been hear for a while, your last two posts in this thread have made me laugh and not want to kill my self while writing my beautiful Pan-Arabism paper that I am one page into after 2 hours :)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Cheers comrade! Without a bot of humour we may all just clip ourselves. Check out the human nature thread in opposing ideologies...I get to slag that capitalist wanker Kelvin9...I know you will dig it..

Back to the topic...

I read in the former-liberal-media-newsprint today that the the isreali prime minister agreed to allow Palestine
to develop their own state. We will see what happens.

[Zombie]

The tread wasn't stopped for 3 days because AK47 made some divine comments. It's because it has become useless to talk about this matter here, you're new here but I don't know for how long you've been reading posts on the forum: bottom line is, those discussions lead nowhere. Hence the shutting up.

So according to you, because we don't have socialist fighting against each other, we shouldn't care for the welfare of both populations? We should just forget about it and let them destroy each other, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FREAKING SOCIALISTS? I admire your (in)humanity.

the morale of their populace to the point where socialist subversionists can begin to mobilise their populace when they are at their most vulnerable.

Yeah I reckon the morale of the terrorised Palestinian (and Israeli) populations aren't low enough for you, eh? Where do you live anyway? A nice quiet suburban neighborhood where your life as well as your family's existence aren't threatened every frigging minute of the day?

Easier said than done my friend.

After my (harsh) comments, I'd like to welcome you to the community, hope you have a nice time here. And don't expect everyone to agree with you ;).

.A.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Zombie on 4:36 am on May 27, 2003
The tread wasn't stopped for 3 days because AK47 made some divine comments. It's because it has become useless to talk about this matter here, you're new here but I don't know for how long you've been reading posts on the forum: bottom line is, those discussions lead nowhere. Hence the shutting up.

However you want to look at it comrade...AK still made a great point, so relax a bit.


So according to you, because we don't have socialist fighting against each other, we shouldn't care for the welfare of both populations? We should just forget about it and let them destroy each other, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FREAKING SOCIALISTS? I admire your (in)humanity.

As I have said several times during this thread. I do believe Isreal is wrong. And yes, I do not have time to deal with two ultra-religious parties when there is nothing to gain for the movement. I'm not heartless, just practical. Try being a communist for 20 years and perhaps you will understand.


the morale of their populace to the point where socialist subversionists can begin to mobilise their populace when they are at their most vulnerable.
Yeah I reckon the morale of the terrorised Palestinian (and Israeli) populations aren't low enough for you, eh?

Did you not read the post this was in response to?
These statements were made to show affect to my original post and were by no means serious...I thought the general tone of the respose was fairly obvious...try reading it again...from a sarcastic standpoint.


Where do you live anyway? A nice quiet suburban neighborhood where your life as well as your family's existence aren't threatened every frigging minute of the day? Easier said than done my friend.

This one is just a bit out of line. But only a bit. I was born in Brixton, London 1968...I have been o member of the communist party since '83. (originally SWP) After leaving LondonI lived in Morocco, Hong Kong, Mexico City, Mexico before residing currently in the USA. I will not tell you precisely where for obvious reasons...But it's hardly a suburb...as I have no children at all and no family in the US...the suburbs would be pointless...I've been around this game a long time comrade.


After my (harsh) comments, I'd like to welcome you to the community, hope you have a nice time here. And don't expect everyone to agree with you ;).

I thank you for your hospitality. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. If that were the case the entire world would have been socialist quite a few years ago.


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 8:05 am on May 27, 2003)


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 8:12 am on May 27, 2003)

[Sinistra]

i have read some posts , that says " how come the palestenians are being called terrorists only for prtecting there land " .

can you help me understand how killing children on a buss is self defence ???????

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Sinistra on 12:46 pm on May 27, 2003
i have read some posts , that says " how come the palestenians are being called terrorists only for prtecting there land " .

can you help me understand how killing children on a buss is self defence ???????


That kind of intreages me as well... well is some one going to answer, OR IS IT ONE OF THOSE POINTS THAT WILL BE IGNORED AS YOU CANT THINK OF AN ARGUMENT?

I hate my caps lock...

[chamo]

That is the outcome of Islamic fundamentalism I'm afraid. I'm no expert, but some terrorists carry out the prophecy of the prophet Mohammed, who told that all infidels should be killed, rather like the Christian Crusades of the last millenia.

Sometimes the terrorist (Hammas) also carry out suicide bombings as a revenge for Zionist attacks on their people as well. Some terrorists do defend their communities on the edge of the Gaza strip for instance, where Israeli watchtowers overlook the Palestinians homes, shoot randomly and demolish Palestinian homes.
You will know this if you saw a program called "The Killing Zone", on Channel 4 two weeks ago, where a journalist is reporting from the Palestinian-Israeli edge of the Gaza strip. While they are filming one of the peaceful protestors (Tom Hurndall a British man) from the International Solidarity Movement, the group as Rachel Corrie, is shot in the head by a sniper when trying to help some children as an Israeli attack continues. The Israeli Defence Force (IDF) claimed they shot an armed gun-man in camoflage clothing. They had in fact shot an unarmed protestor wearing a flourescent orange jacket. The IDF still denies this truth.
http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/special_...lling_zone.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/special_reports/dispatches_killing_zone.html)

The IDF also shoots at journalists and reporters working in the Palestinian areas. James Miller, cameraman, was shot as he approached Israeli tanks with a white flag, his hands in the air, and with "TV" stuck to his helmet and bullet-proof jacket.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2...,950069,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,950069,00.html)
Seems there is no possibility of the IDF letting people report form the other side of the story.

Not that I was attacking Islam as a culture and religion in the first place. It's just that fundamentalist extremists take things too far in their fascist interests to kill "infidels". There are Islamic priests and politicians who condem those kind of suicide attacks on innocent people in Israel. Yet some are against the attacks but do not comment or condem them when they actually happen. "All that is needed for evil to flouish is for men to do nothing."

(Edited by happyguy at 2:10 pm on May 27, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

What the fuck are you on about.

That has nothing to do with "Islamic Fundamentalism". Do you know what that concept, created by some ignorant idiots, means? Clearly not.

The Palestinian people are not acting like they are for the sake of their religion. They are acting because they want the right to exist as Palestinians. They are not doing what they do because they are Muslims.

And who asked the stupid question about howcome children being killed on a bus is justified? You must be one of those idiots who claims that war is wrong because innocent people die right? THIS IS A WAR. People die. It doesnt matter who dies or how they die, they will die. And it is the fault of the powers that be, not those who kill them. If a few people have to die so that around 3 to 4 million people get their land and right to exist back then so be it, whether those people be men, women, children, elderly, white, black, disabled or whatever. It does not matter.

Some people need to open their eyes and see what this all means

[chamo]

The Palestinian people are not acting like they are for the sake of their religion. They are acting because they want the right to exist as Palestinians. They are not doing what they do because they are Muslims.

The Palestinian People are not. If you try and read through my post you will see that I said "terrorists" and not civilians. Note the difference.

Seriously, do you believe that it is not Islam that these suicide bombers par-take in. They die for their religion, and they are killed for their religion. Killing innocent Israelis is not effecting their "right to exist as Palestinians". Try to have a look at what I said. There is a distinction between the Palestinian People and the terrorists who carry out attacks on innocent Jews, extremists are using the situation to make their influence.

I was referring to the bus-bombing comment.

(Edited by happyguy at 4:57 pm on May 27, 2003)

[Zombie]

Quote: from Sinistra on 7:46 am on May 27, 2003
i have read some posts , that says " how come the palestenians are being called terrorists only for prtecting there land " .

can you help me understand how killing children on a buss is self defence ???????



Sinistra, haven't seen you in a while.
That post of yours isn't anything new, you post the same material over and over. And we all know arguing with you is like trying to teach my friend's dog to brush his teeth.

Socialismo is correct. When, in a previous post of mine, I talked religion, I didn't exactly mean it as a cause, but as a consequence of the ongoing conflict. Even if it is not all that religious at first, it most likely is taking that aspect, as it is making the hatred among the Jewish and Muslim communities grow like Hell in the ME.

[Zombie]

Quote: from happyguy on 11:46 am on May 27, 2003
The Palestinian people are not acting like they are for the sake of their religion. They are acting because they want the right to exist as Palestinians. They are not doing what they do because they are Muslims.

The Palestinian People are not. If you try and read through my post you will see that I said "terrorists" and not civilians. Note the difference.

Seriously, do you believe that it is not Islam that these suicide bombers par-take in. They die for their religion, and they are killed for their religion. Killing innocent Israelis is not effecting their "right to exist as Palestinians". Try to have a look at what I said. There is a distinction between the Palestinian People and the terrorists who carry out attacks on innocent Jews, extremists are using the situation to make their influence.


How can you make the distinction between a man fighting for his people, and a man fighting for his so called beliefs? It's not that easy, yes I agree with you on the fundies point, but don't you agree that the conflict is made up of both religious and non-religious aspects?

[El Che]

If I was palestinian I`d take up arms and I dont give a **** about anything else.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from El Che on 7:04 pm on May 27, 2003
If I was palestinian I`d take up arms and I dont give a **** about anything else.

And this will surely bring us peace!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Sinistra on 12:46 pm on May 27, 2003
i have read some posts , that says " how come the palestenians are being called terrorists only for prtecting there land " .

can you help me understand how killing children on a buss is self defence ???????



Can YOU help me understand how can lauching rocket attacks from cobra helicopters, destroying the houses of palestinian families ,killing entire palestinian communities and shooting at young protesters armed with only rocks not be labeled as terrorism??????

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 5:22 pm on May 27, 2003)

[chamo]

Quote: from Zombie on 4:56 pm on May 27, 2003

Quote: from happyguy on 11:46 am on May 27, 2003
The Palestinian people are not acting like they are for the sake of their religion. They are acting because they want the right to exist as Palestinians. They are not doing what they do because they are Muslims.

The Palestinian People are not. If you try and read through my post you will see that I said "terrorists" and not civilians. Note the difference.

Seriously, do you believe that it is not Islam that these suicide bombers par-take in. They die for their religion, and they are killed for their religion. Killing innocent Israelis is not effecting their "right to exist as Palestinians". Try to have a look at what I said. There is a distinction between the Palestinian People and the terrorists who carry out attacks on innocent Jews, extremists are using the situation to make their influence.


How can you make the distinction between a man fighting for his people, and a man fighting for his so called beliefs? It's not that easy, yes I agree with you on the fundies point, but don't you agree that the conflict is made up of both religious and non-religious aspects?


There are both aspects, I wasn't saying that the bombings were always driven by religion, but it is the extremists who organise the terror groups.
It is difficult to distinguish what drives the bombers, but there is definetly an argument that there are others who drive them to suicide.

One wonders if a Free Palestine was created and all Zionist attacks stopped, would the attacks on Israeli people stop altogether?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

It is so ironic and, in a way, amusing to hear you all flinging the word "terrorist" around. All you "Socialists", "Communists", "anti-imperialists", "anti-colonialists" and "anti-Americans". For it was our destructive, right-wing, imperialist Western governments who invented the word "terrorist". And they invented it to mask what people are fighting for.

They invented it to cover up the fact that people are bombing, fighting and rioting for freedom and for a just cause. They invented it to trick everyone into believing that these people we hear about aren't fighting for a just cause, but for the sake of fighting.

"Terrorists"....

Ohh, they're just bored idiots who want to cause some hassle. They're just a bunch of anti-authority nuts who want some power.

"Terrorists"...

Killing and maiming people for the sake of it when they should just all sit around a table with a few bits of paper and pens and talk the situation through.

"Terrorists"....

They're just religious fanatics who take their beliefs to extremes and brutally murder people.


You lot make me laugh. These people are freedom fighters. They are fighting for their right to exist as a people. They aren't just launching grenades for nothing. They aren't just a bunch of radicals with RPG's. There is a fucking cause behind this. And their actions completely justified. Who said violence wasn't civilized? Who wrote that violence and waging war would not gain peace? Where did this idea that everything had to be discussed around a table come from?

I seem to remember it was Che himself that said "A people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy", or something along those lines. The Palestinian people have hatred. Not for Israeli people, but for the authorities. The people who have relegated them and their people to nobody's who can't even have their own state. Authorities who have taken their land and allowed their people to prosper from it. Israeli people have died and will continue to die only because their leaders are incompetent and unable to deal properly with a major issue.

And finally, back to that evil word. I guarantee you, and you should all know this anyway, that the American and Western governments and media would be throwing the word "terrorist" all over Che Guevara if he was around today, but he and the people he fought with were fighting for their existence against an imperialist beast JUST like the PLO, PFLP, DFLP, PNA, Fatah, Hamas and Infitada are all doing now.

It's political and moral, not religious, warfare.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 7:08 pm on May 27, 2003)

[MarxIsGod]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 11:19 am on May 27, 2003

Quote: from Sinistra on 12:46 pm on May 27, 2003
i have read some posts , that says " how come the palestenians are being called terrorists only for prtecting there land " .

can you help me understand how killing children on a buss is self defence ???????



Can YOU help me understand how can lauching rocket attacks from cobra helicopters, destroying the houses of palestinian families ,killing entire palestinian communities and shooting at young protesters armed with only rocks not be labeled as terrorism??????

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 5:22 pm on May 27, 2003)


I think that both sides have legitimate concerns and certainly neither side is blameless. Colin Powell needs to stay out of the Middle East and let Israel and Palestine handle things for once. The new Palestinian prime minister (whose name eludes me) and Sharon have met and plan to meet again and people should not expect instant results. Both sides need to feel safe and I think there should be a cease fire for a reasonable amount of time (3-6 months) to make sure both sides can control their violence, whether it be done by private citizens or directed by the government. Once both sides have shown a capacity to stop, then peace negotiations can commence and at that point both sides should feel safe enough that negotiations can be made quickly.

[Sinistra]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 5:38 pm on May 27, 2003
What the fuck are you on about.

If a few people have to die so that around 3 to 4 million people get their land and right to exist back then so be it, whether those people be men, women, children, elderly, white, black, disabled or whatever. It does not matter.


Some people need to open their eyes and see what this all means


My friend died on the 5 of march 2003 , he was murdered by a hammas terorist . are you treing to tell me that you understand , or even worse , justify his muder ?
i can't believe that people like you exist , FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR 4 MILLION PALESTENIANS . you didn't have to go to his funeral , you didn't have to see his mother's crying eyes , you didn't have see his litle brother walking in the cemetery , not understanding that his big brother will never come home .

Capitalists , fundemebtalists aren't the problem today , the real problem of the world are people like you , people who pretrened to be socialists . humane ... but your the worst kinf of people .

i am not getting into the political argument of "who is right?" . but killing , is wrong .

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I am terribly sorry for your friends death. Equally as sympathetic as I am for the death of every other innocent person that has died in this conflict as well as every single other war int he history of mankind.

But this is about more than one person dying. More than 20 people dying. It's about the freedom of 4 million people who have had their land and their existence raped from them. Many Palestinians have died as a result of Israel's actions, JUST as your friend has sadly been killed.

Many innocents have died but it not their "killers" you should be angry with. It is the people who made those "killers" kill who you should be angry with.

How many innocent relatives of German people died during WW2.... let's just settle at saying 'lots'. And we all wish they didn't have to die. But, however upset they may be, they MUST understand that they were killed in a war that was ESSENTIAL.

Again, I'm very sorry for the death of your friend as I am for the death of thousands of innocent Arab people, and by 'Arab' I mean Israeli's as well as Palestinians. They are, of course, Arab peoples or at least direct descendants of Arab peoples. But I do not take back anything I have said.

You must try to see past the personal affect that the conflict has had on you and your family and/or friends and take a look at the bigger picture.

[Pete]

Just on the fundamentalist point from a while back, I believe it was Nasser (or was it Sadat?) who said that it was not the Fundamentalists who where the problem in Islamic nations, but the nonfundamentalists.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

By that he (it was Anwar Sadat i think) meant Isalmic States. If your trying to point anything towards Palestine by that post, then it's useless because the Palestinian authority is not Islamic state-based...they are just Islamic peoples.

[Sinistra]

FUCK YOU THEN , AND FUCK YOU NOW .

how dare you compare the deaths of the germans in ww2 ( whom my father is one of ) to the terorism that the palestenian .
no land , is worth the death of children .

the palestenians were offered a state in 1947 9 they refused ) they were offered a state in 1967 ( they refused ) the were offered a state in 2000 ( they refused) . they are being offered a state now ( we will just have to wait and see ) .

i am not saying that israel has 100% inocent , but nothing israel has done can make a man to kill 20 kids , by killing his own self .

let me also remind you in ww2 almost 1 milion germans were killed in allied bombings , many more lost there homes . non of them had done what the palestenians are doing now .
6 milion jews were murderd ... non of them , non of them , had done what the palestenians are doing now . non .

so don't tell me that these murderers are killing kids so they can liberate there land , these are fucked up muslims , blinded by their hate and their frustration .

don't forget that almost every time that there is a chance of meeting , "your friends" have to blow somthing up , just to prevent this meeting from hapening . look what had happened last week . when sharon and abu mazen wanted to meet . there were 3 suicide bombings in three days , and two more attempts .

[Pete]

Directed to the 2nd last post: No, I was just meaning towards Islamic states (sorry for the confusion). I remember reading Mufti Kuftaro's speech where he mentioned why Fundamentalism and Extremism where benificial. Just to remove the negative connotations from the words :)

(Edited by CrazyPete at 4:11 pm on May 27, 2003)

[El Che]

If no land is worth the death of childern why don`t all the fucking Isrealies get the fuck out of Palestine.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Crazy Pete...that was easily solved!

Sinastra....the numbers of how many died in what war are irrelevant. It's the concept that I was pointing out. Innocent people die in a war. It's a sad fact of the way things go.

You claims that the Palestinians were offered "states" are laughable. They were offered pickings of what was rightfully theirs. Jerusalem and surrounding towns, one of which was Bethlehem, would all be controlled by UN. These are Palestinian lands. The resolution also sought to create a unified economy between Palestine and Israel. This economy would be controlled more by the Israeli authorities and, therefore, even more so by American authorities. The following resolution offered similar pickings. You expect this to be accepted?

And you say time will tell with this new resolution. Well, you don't need to wait because I can tel you what the Palestinian people will say to this new plan. They will shuve it right back up the arses of Israel and America. The new Road Plan, again, plans to establish a joint economy which would be controlled largely by Israel, USA and the UN.

The Palestinian freedom fighters (that's those terrorists for some of you) will not stop untill their demands are met. And rightly so. Until a resolution giving them all their land back as well as full control over those lands and their own economy is passed, then the war goes on. Again, rightly so. Inevitably, people will die. But remember that the people dying are Israelis and Palestinians. Not Jews and Muslims.

And just as I am about to post this message...I see El Che's post. Blunt...not very subtle...but straight to the point and completely correct.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I will have to apologise to everyone for some of my previous views in this thread..."neither side wants to advance socialism, so I choose not to concern myself."

After further research, I have found out that a large majority of palestinians are indeed loyal socialists.

reference:
http://www.lrp-cofi.org/PR/PalestinePR64.html

(damn good site I must say, I suggest you all view it)

Again, my apologies.

[MarxIsGod]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 1:54 pm on May 27, 2003
I am terribly sorry for your friends death. Equally as sympathetic as I am for the death of every other innocent person that has died in this conflict as well as every single other war int he history of mankind.

But this is about more than one person dying. More than 20 people dying. It's about the freedom of 4 million people who have had their land and their existence raped from them. Many Palestinians have died as a result of Israel's actions, JUST as your friend has sadly been killed.

Many innocents have died but it not their "killers" you should be angry with. It is the people who made those "killers" kill who you should be angry with.

How many innocent relatives of German people died during WW2.... let's just settle at saying 'lots'. And we all wish they didn't have to die. But, however upset they may be, they MUST understand that they were killed in a war that was ESSENTIAL.

Again, I'm very sorry for the death of your friend as I am for the death of thousands of innocent Arab people, and by 'Arab' I mean Israeli's as well as Palestinians. They are, of course, Arab peoples or at least direct descendants of Arab peoples. But I do not take back anything I have said.

You must try to see past the personal affect that the conflict has had on you and your family and/or friends and take a look at the bigger picture.


I don't care which side you are on, the killing of innocent civilians is unjustifiable no matter what.

[MarxIsGod]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 1:54 pm on May 27, 2003
I am terribly sorry for your friends death. Equally as sympathetic as I am for the death of every other innocent person that has died in this conflict as well as every single other war int he history of mankind.

But this is about more than one person dying. More than 20 people dying. It's about the freedom of 4 million people who have had their land and their existence raped from them. Many Palestinians have died as a result of Israel's actions, JUST as your friend has sadly been killed.

Many innocents have died but it not their "killers" you should be angry with. It is the people who made those "killers" kill who you should be angry with.

How many innocent relatives of German people died during WW2.... let's just settle at saying 'lots'. And we all wish they didn't have to die. But, however upset they may be, they MUST understand that they were killed in a war that was ESSENTIAL.

Again, I'm very sorry for the death of your friend as I am for the death of thousands of innocent Arab people, and by 'Arab' I mean Israeli's as well as Palestinians. They are, of course, Arab peoples or at least direct descendants of Arab peoples. But I do not take back anything I have said.

You must try to see past the personal affect that the conflict has had on you and your family and/or friends and take a look at the bigger picture.

[Zombie]

Sinistra - FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR 4 MILLION PALESTENIANS

you think you deserve respect after saying this shit.
No sir, FUCK YOU, and FUCK YOUR UTTER CRAP, your friend's life isn't worth 4 million others, it's worth nothing. You're worth nothing.
You wanna play revenge on a whole population who probably doesn't deserve your petty insults? Go grab a gun and join the army. You wanna talk the talk, now go walk the walk. Or just shut the fuck up you little pussy fuck. I'm sick and tired of your bullshit.


Socialismo - They aren't just launching grenades for nothing.
I don't give a rat's ass about the western meaning of terrorism. What I do understand is, when an islamic fundamentalist comes and publicly declare that it is Allah's will to kill all non muslim, and that everyone should fear muslims, then that idiot deserve death. Not as a martyr, but as a poor motherfucker who didn't get the chance that we all have here : the power to reason.
Get real, there are bad guys in this world, not everything is justified.

Socialismo - It's political and moral, not religious, warfare.

Have you EVER lived in the middle east? Do you have ANY idea how religious these conflicts are? Political?
Do you know what they promise to those suicide bombers? A paradise with tens of virgins waiting for him to bang them til eternity. Political? Can you spell b-r-a-i-n-w-a-s-h-i-n-g?


.A.

[Sinistra]

I am not seeking anyones respect .
i just wanted to clarify it that the lives of my friends come before the "so called palestenian demand for liberty " .

you know what , socialsmo_o_muerte , i have a litle asignment for you , can you tell me what is palestine , what is a palestenian and who are the palestenians ?

one more thing , what do you have to say for the need of a state to the jewish people ?

[chamo]

Have you EVER lived in the middle east? Do you have ANY idea how religious these conflicts are? Political?
Do you know what they promise to those suicide bombers? A paradise with tens of virgins waiting for him to bang them til eternity. Political? Can you spell b-r-a-i-n-w-a-s-h-i-n-g?

My point exactly. Young men who's families have been killed are taken in by the fundamentalists who tell them this exact thing. Have a look at the videos that the suicide bombers record before they go to work, they do not only claim they are dying for a Free Palestine but for Allah and to kill infidels. The September 11th hijackers believed the same thing.

These type of bombings do nothing for either side of the conflict. Israelis attack the West Bank, suicide bomber blows himself up in Tel Aviv, Israelis move in on Gaza Strip, Palestinian kids are shot throwing rocks, bombers strike again. Tic for Tac warfare it is called, the same used to happen in Northern Ireland. It got us no-where until it stopped. It benefits no-one, if anything, suicide bombings anger the Zionists, the Israeli Army and the West.

By your logic, Socialismo, the IRA are not terrorists either.

[scott thesocialist]

so it seems that we are split right down the middle on this discussion with more people joining in, well what can i say that untill the IDF stops killing innocent palestinians then the suicide boming will NOTstop. you have to understand that these people have no army to which they can defend them self against the us/uk bought arms. the israelis have seen to this they have destroyed the palestine governement the economy. the israelis have no desire sorry the israeli government have ho desire to work and live along side the palestine people, Sharon is a right wing extremist who particapated it killed arabs in lebanon he also tried to kill yasser arafat before and will again. sharon is backed by the us who have a agenda to control the middle east for the oil, the us are only in this because they need peace to control the oil the truth is that they and israel don't give a shit about palestine, i grant you that a % of the israeli population what peace but those in power hate the palestinians. might i add that just 2 days ago the israeli government JUST passed the bill to accept the road map for peace which again is totally unacceptable on behave of the palestinians. it offers no hope for anybody.

[Reuben]

I generally agree with scottthesocialist.

I do not se the targetting of Israeli civilians as justifiable. However it is extremely understandable considering the matrial deprivation and perpetual violence suffered by Palestinians in the occuppied territories combined with th fact that they are completely disenfranchised polically. While they have some say in the palestinian authority they have no political means by which they may influence the Israeli Occupation which excersises a considerale amoun of coersive control over their lives, and thus it is understandable that they resort to means which are regarded as less legitiimate.

Having said this i feel it is vital to understand the israeli people in 3-dimensional terms. Many israelies did not choose to move there but were to a great extent washedup there after being stuck in displaced persons camps at the end of world war ne, surrounded by largely hostile populations

[Pete]

The IRA has the same right to fight as the Palestinians, if in a slightly different context.

[Blasphemy]

Trying to justify the evil done by the Palestinian terrorist organizations is a sickening, henious crime. Socialsmo, you said that "Innocent people die in a war", and that we have to accept it because "that's the way things are". It seems to me as if you accept the fact the innocent Israelis die, but not the fact that innocent Palestinians die, because that's a horrible thing. Innocent Israeli children blowing up in buses is a totally acceptable thing because there's a war, right? Wrong.

Next time you walk down the street and some maniac starts shooting everywhere, I want you to tell me that he is not a terrorist. Next time your best friend is killed by a guy with an explosive belt, tell me that guy isn't a terrorist. Next time you sit and home, and someone breaks in and murders your parents, tell me he is not a terrorist. I'm sure you will find it hard to do. But sitting in your home, and watching the entire conflict on TV, it is very easy to call them "freedom fighters". Come here to Israel, watch the tears of children over their mothers' grave, watch the tears of mothers over their children's graves, look in the eyes of the people who will never see their loved ones again, and tell them that the guy who took their beloved one away from them is actually a freedom fighter. If you dare to do so, I will accept your claim. If you can't do that, shut up.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Sinistra, your views are completely invalid due to the personal "experience" you've thrown into the debate.


"i just wanted to clarify it that the lives of my friends come before the "so called palestenian demand for liberty ""

Well you cannot clarify that, because it is wrong. And if you believe that, you have not much desire for peace.


By your logic, Socialismo, the IRA are not terrorists either

You tell me why they ARE terrorists and why they AREN'T freedom fighters. Because they kill innocents? Because they cause destruction? Well if that makes them a terrorist in your view then so be it. But if violence is the only way people can fight for freedom and for what is there's then thats the way it has to be. Not everyone has the chance to act in the way Gandhi did. Circumstances allowed him to be non-violent. The IRA and the Palestinian fighters do not have those circumstances. Violence is their final resort.

Of course scottthesocialist is correct. That is the consensus. It just seems some people cannot accept that violence needs to be used. Whether or not they'd think that if they weren't directly affected by it I dont know.

Incidently, what IS everyones definiton of a freedom fighter exactly?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 4:51 pm on May 28, 2003
Trying to justify the evil done by the Palestinian terrorist organizations is a sickening, henious crime. Socialsmo, you said that "Innocent people die in a war", and that we have to accept it because "that's the way things are". It seems to me as if you accept the fact the innocent Israelis die, but not the fact that innocent Palestinians die, because that's a horrible thing. Innocent Israeli children blowing up in buses is a totally acceptable thing because there's a war, right? Wrong.

Next time you walk down the street and some maniac starts shooting everywhere, I want you to tell me that he is not a terrorist. Next time your best friend is killed by a guy with an explosive belt, tell me that guy isn't a terrorist. Next time you sit and home, and someone breaks in and murders your parents, tell me he is not a terrorist. I'm sure you will find it hard to do. But sitting in your home, and watching the entire conflict on TV, it is very easy to call them "freedom fighters". Come here to Israel, watch the tears of children over their mothers' grave, watch the tears of mothers over their children's graves, look in the eyes of the people who will never see their loved ones again, and tell them that the guy who took their beloved one away from them is actually a freedom fighter. If you dare to do so, I will accept your claim. If you can't do that, shut up.


IF THERE IS SOMETHING JUST THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING FOR THEN IT IS NOT TERRORISM.

People are bringing personal experience into this debate and that is irrelevant. You have to look at this from a world perspective. It's all good getting worked up because a friend has died or whatever but that's not the point. I've had family members directly effected by wars and issues from India to South Africa, Northern Ireland and in Palestine. But I do not mention these because they are not the point. The situation needs to be looked at from a distance.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 4:25 pm on May 28, 2003
The IRA has the same right to fight as the Palestinians, if in a slightly different context.


No not really the Palistinians dont have there own nation, the Irish do. The palistinian terrorists are not just a bunch of drugs/arms smuggling, raqueteraing bunch of thugs. Where as the IRA once had a cause now all they have in there sites is money and profit.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The point is, the IRA are irrelevant in this thread.....

the title is "Palestine: wheres the politics"....

not "Palestine: the same as the IRA?"

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 10:51 pm on May 27, 2003


You claims that the Palestinians were offered "states" are laughable. They were offered pickings of what was rightfully theirs.


Actually in 1967 they were offered all of the Gaza Strip. The Palistinan leaders were also going to accept but bombings continued and the Isreili government called off the deal quite understandably. If the Palistinian terrorists stopped the killings then they would have got what they wanted. Even iff they stop now its to late, there are to many of them for a to smaller space. So they have wasted there only oppertunity.

As to you saying that: -

Sinistra, your views are completely invalid due to the personal "experience" you've thrown into the debate.

I completely disagree he is in a far better position to appriciate the situation, the palistinians do diserve a home land yes, but those who have been killed by suicide bombers diserve life.

[chamo]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 4:25 pm on May 28, 2003
The IRA has the same right to fight as the Palestinians, if in a slightly different context.


Well, let's not go into this too much, but there are plenty of similarities between the Middle East conflict and the Irish conflict. For one thing it is easy to see who supports who. In the "flashpoint interfaces" of Belfast I can see on the Nationalist side of the "Peace" Wall there are Free Palestine flags on lamposts flying alongside Irish tri-colours. Similarily, there are Israeli flags fluttering beside Union Jacks on the Loyalist side.

The historical similarities are that a land, Ireland, was invaded by the British and a Unionist State set-up in the north of Ireland, after the Anglo-Irish Treaty 1929 split the country in two. There were Republican attacks on Northern Ireland's civilian population and British Soldiers after civil unrest for around 40 years. There were also attacks by the British forces on the Catholic Nationalist population, from which there were more attacks by the IRA.

So it remarkably easy to compare the two situations.

"Because they kill innocents? Because they cause destruction?"

They would be terrorists because they intimidate and terrorise a population, and the whole population of Northern Ireland and Britain. They have a cause as much as the Palestinians have a cause, but when you start to target an innocent civilian population indiscriminatley or discriminatley to get your cause into "action" you become a terrorist.
I have heard of very few people call the IRA "freedom fighters" except for the actual members themselves.

You believe Palestinian "freedom fighters" blow themselves up and kill innocent Israelis because they want the peace and freedom of a state? I haven't heard of a freedom granted through killing civilians. If anything the suicide bombings and Israeli attacks are counter-productive towards a solution.

The bombings of the Israelis have results which involve the revenge attacks by the IDF on the Palestinian areas, resulting in the end effect of dead Palestinians.

If you can give me an example of a suicide bombing having a positive outcome for anybody, one which does not involve the counter-attacks on the Palestinians, well then...

"Violence is their final resort."

And yet they refuse to meet and talk with each other. Violence must also be the last resort of the Israelis too then?

(Edited by happyguy at 5:28 pm on May 28, 2003)

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 6:59 pm on May 28, 2003
The situation needs to be looked at from a distance.


And this is where you are completely wrong. From a distance, all you see is numbers and graphs, without really understanding what's going on. From a distance, it is all very simple - Israel gives the Palestinians a state and they will all live happily ever after. From a distance, it just a matter of some power hungry leaders. From a distance, everything is very small and unimportant.

But from the inside you see the ruined houses, the smashed cars, the remains of the buses, the crying people and the burned bodies. Only from there you can truly understand what's going on, and only from there you can find a real solution. Because in the center of the conflict you don't have nations and cities and borders, you have people. You have bereaved mothers, and orphans, and widows, and they stand in the center, they are the heart of the conflict. The Old City of the Jerusalem is not the point, Ramallah isn't the point, Sharon isn't the point, Arafat isn't the point. The points is the ordinary people who live in the midst of an absurd cycle of hatred and death. From a distance, you can't see the terrified looks on their faces, you can't feel their pain. People are not numbers and statistics you hear on TV, but a streams of thoughts and emotions, that if you can't see, you can't have even the slightest idea of reality in Israel-Palestine.

[El Che]

Blasphemy what do expect the Palestinians to do? Role over and accept whatever you offer them?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Terrorism is dictionarily defined as the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

That being written, every country that has ever engaged in any type of violent action towards either themselves or another country for political reasons are terrorists. I believe that covers just about the entire world. Now it can be said that both sides in this case are terrorists. Sure levels the playing field doesn't it?

Why is it that when US led capitalist country's intrests are at stake (crude oil in this case) any formal declaration of war is simply ignored as to regognise it would be counter productive to their interests.

Al-Qaeda has been very clear that they consider themselves "at war" with the US for many years. However, because the US does not recognise their declaration of war, it doesn't exist, converting their act of war to an act of terror. Yet the US will continually bomb other nations and simply say, "Well we did say "we" were at war, so it's completely legitimate".

I see the Israelis showing the same behaviour as the US. What exactly would Isreal do without support from the west?? More than likely they would start throwing around nuclear weapons like they were Ike tossin' around Tina as every arab nation would converge on their little strip of desert to attempt to free their palestinian brothers.

[El Che]

The Isrealies are the aggressor, the palestianians are simply defending them selves the only way they can and know. That doesnt make it right but its Isreal you (the international community) have to deal with severly. But of course that doesnt happen because we live in shit world. I think im going to stop talking about this because its useless and it upsets me.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from El Che on 9:37 pm on May 28, 2003
Blasphemy what do expect the Palestinians to do? Role over and accept whatever you offer them?


Who is "you"? I didn't offer the Palestinians anything as far as I know. If I could offer them something, it would be much more that they were offered thus far.

I expect the Palestinians to rise up, but killing innocent people is not the way to do it. Do you really think that if they blow up buses packed with children Palestine will be free? Do you really think that premiscuous killing is a legitimate method? As I said, as long as you don't have to deal with that terrorism, it is very easy to speak. Before you start praising the Palestinian terrorists, go and visit a family siting "shiva" on their 15 year-old son killed on his way to school. Go and tell them that the guy who butchered him was just trying to free his people, and that they should actually support his just struggle.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Someone asked whether I therefore think that Israeli violence is justified? Well, any violence on the part of Isrealis is reactionary and retaliation. So, fromt he political context it is not justified. However, if we take it that they are fighting to defend themselves personally, then of course it is justified. Anyone is entitled to personal self-defence. If they're defending they're government and fighting because they don't want Palestinians to have land, then they are not justified.

What I am trying to say, and what I sense El Che is trying to say also, is that the Palestinians who fight and bomb do so because they know no other way. They see no other hope or way of being noticed or any other way of their cause being brought to the attention of the world. They have been crushed by the opposing governments and the ONLY way they can get the attention of the world is by committing violent acts. It is their last resort.

Blasphemy, what you said is true. What I wrote did come out wrong. I accept all of what you have said and to say it needs to be looked at from a distance was very poorly worded on my part. What I mean is that it is more important to consider this as a world issue. Arrgh, my mind has gone blank of explaining what I mean. The overall peace and reclaiming of land is more important than the individual deaths. I think that is what I mean to say.

And on the IRA, like I said, this isn't about them. So let us not talk about them. I'm not very educated on their actions so I can't talk much. Although I hear they partake in more than just violent protests. I've heard they smuggle durgs and all this stuff. I don't know. Like I said though, they are not the ones up for debate. I'm sure there are other threads where they are discussed.

[chamo]

"The overall peace and reclaiming of land is more important than the individual deaths. I think that is what I mean to say."

Thus you mean the deaths do not matter, i.e: that they are pointless, unjustified and therefore have no good outcome for Palestine?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

No, the deaths do matter because they highlight the problem. Without the amount of deaths, half of the people who do know about this conflict would notknow about it.

I am saying that talking about one death and saying "my friend died" is irrelevant.

[chamo]

Very fair and well then. People shall die for publicity stunts and that's they way it will be.

You seriously think you need violence and killing to get your message through. Why don't you just strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a neo-Nazi conventin then? Ever heard of rational debate and "television"? It's a great invention that allows people to communicate.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from AK47 on 5:03 pm on May 28, 2003

the Palistinians dont have there own nation, the Irish do.


Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.
And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 10:51 pm on May 28, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 5:03 pm on May 28, 2003

the Palistinians dont have there own nation, the Irish do.


Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.
And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.

Well done youve learned some basic geography, maybe next year you will have learned your 2 times tables.

And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

And??? Oh i get it you dont have a point, your just trying to piss me me off, well bugger off and try again child.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Guys, if you're gonna talk about the IRA, go to a thread about the IRA

[Zombie]

Ever heard of rational debate and "television"? It's a great invention that allows people to communicate

*sigh* if only it was that easy mate.
SoM isn't that far off when he said that violence can be the last resort in order to be heard.
I'm not saying it is very humane or reasonable, but when an entire people is driven to despair, I don't think they would reason the same way you and I would. Debates don't mean much to them in times like these.
In other words, they are going to start using violence as the last mean of defense.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

This thread is not going anywhere since we started to discuss the deaths on both sides of the conflict.

The facts are that real terrorist to their work agaisnt Israel because they are agaisnt the existence of Israel as a state and the jewish religion.
But It's important to point out that the mayority of these big extremist organization are not palestinian.

It's total ignorance to call the palestinians as a people "terrorists".

The same false asumption could be said to the jews , calling them all zionists.

It's clear that the deaths of inocents on both sides is unwanted and should be punished.

But the facts are that Israel doesn't except alot of It's responsabilities and doesn't admit to It's share of crimes agaisnt humanity.

We always see how they condem suicide bombers attacks.
But when the Israeli army(with a lot more firepower then one suicide bomber) rolls into a palestinians town and kills scores of palestinians well I never see the same reaction from the US goverment or any other goverment or organization that lashes out at the palestinians on a day by day basis.

And I you will have to excuse me but using bulldozers to destroy a palestinian family's home is terrorism anywhere you put It.

The only reason the palestinians use suicide attacks is because they have no other way to fight they have no change agaisnt the israeli army.

Like I read in a book "Terrorism is the weapon poor"

Not poor of heart or mind but resources!

The palestinians are deperate and in their desparation the see blowing themselves up as a solution.

OF COURSE IT'S NOT A SOLUTION!

But you have to live the life of a palestian to know what It is.

The palestinians that do they suicide attacks are in their mayority everyday people that just couldn't take It anymore.

And I'm not saying that Israelie jews don't sufer.
But they don't have to fight a superior ocupation force.

And you also have to think about Israeli provocation.

For example the settlements how can't they expect to be attaked?
Do the families really think It's safe to be where they are. I think they know what they are getting into.

Just keep in mine how the israele goverment reacted when Sharon said the word "OCUPATION".

That says alot about israeli double standards.

If you're going to to pass jugement on the palestinians don't forget the israelies.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from AK47 on 11:16 pm on May 28, 2003

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 10:51 pm on May 28, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 5:03 pm on May 28, 2003

the Palistinians dont have there own nation, the Irish do.


Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.
And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.

Well done youve learned some basic geography, maybe next year you will have learned your 2 times tables.

And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

And??? Oh i get it you dont have a point, your just trying to piss me me off, well bugger off and try again child.




How lovely not even someone like you that pots so much bullshit can respond to this post without trying to change the topic.

Like I said only one Ireland exists and none of It can be ruled by Britain.

Oh try to get your head out of your ass before you post.
That way maybe just maybe you'll be able to think straight ,that is If you're capable of thinking.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Firstly, AGAIN, DROP THE IRA!!! It's not to do with this thread guys.

Secondly, Guardia, everything you say is true. EXCEPT, I refuse to accept that this, is it's essence, is a conflict based on religion. I don't think we should mention the words Jew or Muslim. I knwo you all have you reasons as to why this is, but only the media has stirred this us as religious conflict and unfortunately some of the people involved have fallen for it. The Palestinian people are not against the existence of Judaism. Well, some idiots may be. But they're fight is with Israelis, not Jews. And besides, any of them who claim it is against Jews is not a true Muslim. So it therefore ceases to be religious.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 12:06 am on May 29, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 11:16 pm on May 28, 2003

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 10:51 pm on May 28, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 5:03 pm on May 28, 2003

the Palistinians dont have there own nation, the Irish do.


Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.
And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

Yes the Irish have their own country It's called Ireland.

Well done youve learned some basic geography, maybe next year you will have learned your 2 times tables.

And as a sovereign nation It's territory can't be divided by brittish imperialism.

And??? Oh i get it you dont have a point, your just trying to piss me me off, well bugger off and try again child.




How lovely not even someone like you that pots so much bullshit can respond to this post without trying to change the topic.

Like I said only one Ireland exists and none of It can be ruled by Britain.

Oh try to get your head out of your ass before you post.
That way maybe just maybe you'll be able to think straight ,that is If you're capable of thinking.


Well it wasnt me who created a post just to piss me off, with no other reason other than that.

How lovely not even someone like you that pots so much bullshit

No mate, your confusing me with your own ignorance. But speak up as an advocate of freedom of thought and speach even you are entitled to your stupid opinions.

Oh try to get your head out of your ass before you post.

Well perhaps if you had not posted like a dick a comment deliberatly to annoy me, we would not be having this flame fest, so perhaps you you should consider the consequenses of your posts before you make them. But i realise that may exceed your compitance.

Like I said only one Ireland exists and none of It can be ruled by Britain.

Again your point being???

I disagree with the IRA and its motives. If the people of N Ireland wanted to be in the republic they would vote Sinn Fein or another republican party. I have provided reasons what do i see from you, nothing.

If you want to talk about bullshit posts look at your own as perfet examples you dumb hypocrit.

[Zombie]

SoM, I have asked you time after time, yet you seem to be able to avoid the question. Have you or have you not lived in the region to the point of being able to understand or reason with the people's mentality? You seem to shout post after post that this is all political, repeating yourself over and over.

Fine by me, but what do you have to say to the presence of fundamentalism (let it be Jewish or Muslim or even Christian), going back to HappyG's post? Do you honestly think the average Joes and Janes in those poor Palestinian refugee camps, who probably don't know what Internet or Television mean, think of the conflict as pure political? NONESENSE.
When you got a country who is fiercely against you, and that that population is mainly Jewish, what do you think goes on in their minds? Bingo.

.A.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

So AK47 in your mind an annoying post is something you can't answer.

Well them I'm glad I annoy you to the point you can't make up any answers from that little brain of yours.

The only reason you call this a flame war is because you had no clue on how to respond to my post wich you find insulting for reasons of your own ignorance.

That's ok you have a right to be stupid.

But you could at least make an effort and try to respond without returning the question to me.

I mean we wouldn't want the people here to think your a BIGGER dumbass than you already are now would we?

For the good of this important discussion about palestine I won't continue responding to your stupidity since It's a waste of my good time and like we can plainly see you haven't one fucking argument to back you up.

So my friend I leave you with the hopes that you will one day learn to read.
It's hopeless I know..

And about the beautyfull country of Ireland well you know exactly what I meant keep that in mind before you spam.

Well good luck!

PS: FUCK YOU!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

AND, I have told you before (haven't I?) that I have not lived there but I do have family who live there. Any true Muslim and any true Jew will tell you that this is not religious war. And those who claim it is are not staying true to their religion so it therefore ceases to be religious warfare anyway. It is only a small group of fanatics that claim this is religious and they are not the people up for question here. It is the Palestinian organisations we are talking about. Those who fight for PALESTINIANS not MUSLIMS.

This is a war of PALESTINE and ISRAEL (and of course USA...it would not be a war if they weren't involved). Not MUSLIMS and JEWS.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

FOR FUCKS SAKE CAN YOU GUYS TAKE YOUR PETTY LITTLE ROW SOMEWHERE ELSE!

[Pete]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 7:23 pm on May 28, 2003
Firstly, AGAIN, DROP THE IRA!!! It's not to do with this thread guys.

Secondly, Guardia, everything you say is true. EXCEPT, I refuse to accept that this, is it's essence, is a conflict based on religion. I don't think we should mention the words Jew or Muslim. I knwo you all have you reasons as to why this is, but only the media has stirred this us as religious conflict and unfortunately some of the people involved have fallen for it. The Palestinian people are not against the existence of Judaism. Well, some idiots may be. But they're fight is with Israelis, not Jews. And besides, any of them who claim it is against Jews is not a true Muslim. So it therefore ceases to be religious.


The problem is that each side believe that the very same god gave both of them the entire territory, and extremists on both sides are halting any movement towards peace. Rabin was assinated by a jew, Hamas ignored Arafat's orders, ect.

The IRA parallel is very important. The conflicts are fairly similar. Put the IRA to the Palestinians, the Brits to the Israelis and I believe that we can see one result of the current Palestine-Israel struggle. It is different as Israel is not exactly an invading nation, but one created in the midst of another. (Nation refering to cultural/religious/socio group)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 2:39 am on May 29, 2003
So AK47 in your mind an annoying post is something you can't answer.

That's ok you have a right to be stupid.

But you could at least make an effort and try to respond without returning the question to me.



So AK47 in your mind an annoying post is something you can't answer.

Firstly i did answer your post. Which was pointing out the gepgraphical location of Ireland, and saying some bullshit about soverenty, which is the kind of shit you get from conservative twerps... coming from you not a supprise.

And i am still waiting for the point of your post, other than to deliberatly try and annoy me. I am now convinced that is the point of it as all you have done is flame me in the past 2 of your threads, not actually provide any arguments to back up your statments, just flame.

But you could at least make an effort and try to respond without returning the question to me.

You never asked a question you fool. You made pointless statements with no other reason but to try and piss me off. You are a prime example of how dinosours survived for thousands of years with brains the size of walnuts.

and like we can plainly see you haven't one fucking argument to back you up.

But you have not actualy put forward a point we can argue on any more than i already have done. How can i possibly argue with you stating a geographical location. You just made a pointless statement. Tell me were you born ignorant or did you acquire your ignorance over time?

[chamo]

"It's total ignorance to call the palestinians as a people "terrorists"."

Don't confuse me with having said that. I am completely aware of the Palestinian People as inhabitants of the West Bank, Gaza Strip. It's just that there are terrorist/freedom fighters who are Palestinians.

"The same false asumption could be said to the jews , calling them all zionists."

I'm quite aware of that also. Some Jews and Rabbi's are completly against the Zionist state and the fighting of the Palestinians. http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

It's not that the people happen to be Muslims and Jews that this war involves religion. Yes, the Palestinian Arabs had their land taken from them, and they should have it back. And the people who "happen" to have taken their land are the Jewish Zionists. Put two religions side by side who are fighting one another and a religious war is the cause.

As in Northern Ireland, Loyalist Parliamilitaries make it their sick pledge to kill Catholic people, and vice versa for some of the IRA actions also.

[scott thesocialist]

this thread is not about the ira or ireland although i can understand people trying to compare but please don't because you can't! the palestinians didn't always target civilians they started to target the military, but then they changed their plan and hence target civilians, you seem to forget that its nto been an on going war thie lastest uprising only started in 2000. for the people who complain about the family members of a innocent person killed in a suicide attack what about the innocent persons family killed by an isreali tank rocket or a school child killed by a israeli sniper? do you really think that its only the isrealis that have innocent casulties? my point when i started this thread was wheres the politics? the isreali government is bscked by thus/uk governments basically the y get away with anything they want and the worlds governments, stand around doing nothing. of course there is no right or wrong what we need to find is a solution, which i believe has to start with the stoppage of isreali settlements, incursions of the idf, and the world governemnts to impose their power which they say they have(which i believe they don't hold anymore). i believe the only way for peace is for the withdrawal of the idf, the less killing of innocent palestinians the less frustration and determination of revenge from the 'freedom fighters' these people aren't 'freedom fighters' they are defenders of their war torn savage country, which they blame all their troubles on israel and their backers from the west. which is true there is more than just bombings and incursions, the isrealis control the everday lives of the palestinains, from crossing a road to what time they have to go to bed at. now come on if you had to comply to these restrictions from a government who isn't even THEIRS.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Off the point a bit, but anyway, did anyone see the programme on C4 Last night about Palestine?

You know we had all the glorification of the NY firefighters after Sept 11th. Well, I'm not saying they shoudln't have been glorified, because they deserved to, but this programme showed how the Palestinian fire fighters worked. They were called to an emergency when a house caught fire. They rushed to the scene only to be stopped 3 TIMES along their 5 MILE journey by Israeli military. TO SHOW ID!!! Clearly the fire engine and the uniforms weren't enough. The house burnt down and a family of 6 all died.

Also, it followed these two Palestinian men, one 75 and one 77. They were walking to Mosque, their regular routine. The walk was one mile. They were stopped twice by Israeli militia men checking their ID.

And finally, the programme followed 3 boys, I think they were 14. They were going to school in the morning. I believe they said it was a half mile walk. They got ID'd AND had their bags and clothes fully searched by Israeli militia men.

If freedom to save a family from their burning house isn't worth fighting for, what is?

If freedom to walk to your place of worship as a 75 year old man isn't worth fighting for, what is?

If freedom to go to school every day and learn, possibly learn a way to solve this shit out, isn't worth fighting for, then what is?

These people aren't going to write letters to the government. "Please, stop those militia men checking my ID when I go to Mosque." Neither are they going to bow down to the militia men. Indeed, the two senior citizens refused to show their ID and, subsequently, were not allowed to attend Mosque. Instead, they got on their knees and did their prayer ritual, worshiping Allah, right infornt of the militia men who were, if the Hebrew translation was correct, considering "manual movement and arrest" of these two Palestinian men. Men like these have seen enough.

People aren't going to write a letter to somebody, ASKING if their child can walk to school peacefully. No. Of course they aren't going to. Because the world wont care about a letter.

They need to act like they do. It is their only way.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 5:07 pm on May 29, 2003)

[Blasphemy]

Happyguy, we shouldn't be quick to ally ourselves with every anti-Zionist Jew. The people you are talking about a fanatical religious people who oppose to Zionism because the Messiah is yet to come. The reason Communism opposes Zionism and the reason ultra-Orthodox Judaism opposes Zionism is completely different, and cooperation between the two is ridiculous. It will be like cooperating with Shiite Muslims in Iraq against the American occupation, both oppose it, but not for the same reason.

[chamo]

You know we had all the glorification of the NY firefighters after Sept 11th. Well, I'm not saying they shoudln't have been glorified, because they deserved to, but this programme showed how the Palestinian fire fighters worked. They were called to an emergency when a house caught fire. They rushed to the scene only to be stopped 3 TIMES along their 5 MILE journey by Israeli military. TO SHOW ID!!! Clearly the fire engine and the uniforms weren't enough. The house burnt down and a family of 6 all died.

That is a terrible thing, but terrorists are known to use Ambulances and Fire Engines to transport guns and explosives, I saw a different program on Channel 4 where the International Solidarity Movement had to phone the British Embassey and negotiate with the IDF to get safe passage for a Palestinian Ambulance carrying a British man with a gunshot wound to the head. A better system is surely called for.

[chamo]

Blasphemy: I wasn't mentioning collaborating with all the anti-Zionist Jews, I was just clarifying and making the observation against the assumtion that all Jewish Israelis are Zionist.

[Invader Zim]

What do you guys suggest should be done to find a peaseful solution which if not pleases both sides at least doesnt damage the standing of either side? However that may well be impossible, which is the sad thing.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I think the latter part of your post answers the question.

A peaceful settlement is surely impossible. The only way the Palestinians will stop is if they are granted all their land. But the Israelis will continue to fight if that happens.

This looks frighteningly like a conflict that has absolutly no end

[Kez]

is it not clear?

AK you call yourself a socialist (this is a general point AK, im not flaming u, if u think i am apologies), but you ask silly questions such as

What do you guys suggest should be done to find a peaseful solution which if not pleases both sides at least doesnt damage the standing of either side?

The only solution is the socialist one, get rid of the petty bourgeoise view point of reform and work within the capitalist framework.

SoM is very correct in stating this is not a religious war, it is in fact a capitalist imperialist war waged by israeli on the land of palestine. It is in the interests of Israeli ruling class to gain more land, more resources as possible to make use of and take advantage of. The religious element is bullshit

This of it as Bush claimin Iraq has WMD (it is irrelevant whether iraq did or didnt), when clearly the real aim was for a puppet regime and resources.

This has fuck all to do with jews or muslims, but with the ruling class, oppressing the working class

The only solution is a socialist federation which would start the middle eastern socialist federation.
This task sounds daunting, but do you not think the Russian task of revolution in 1899 was daunting with all the setback there?

comrade kamo


(Edited by TavareeshKamo at 12:00 am on May 31, 2003)


(Edited by TavareeshKamo at 12:04 am on May 31, 2003)

[Reuben]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 11:51 pm on May 30, 2003
I think the latter part of your post answers the question.

A peaceful settlement is surely impossible. The only way the Palestinians will stop is if they are granted all their land. But the Israelis will continue to fight if that happens.

This looks frighteningly like a conflict that has absolutly no end

That is not quite true Socialismo or muerte. According o the palestinian general delegate to Britain who i saw seak last night. the great mass of Palestinians have accepted a two state solution. As he said the paelstinains have been unreasonably reasonable. At oslo and prior to then the PLO recognised Israle is 78 per cent of what was the British mandate in Palestine. Argably the most significant sticking point is the right of return. This is completely legitimate right, and one n which the palestinians cannot compromise, uite simply because sucha compromise would be making a concession to th effects of ethnic cleansing.
[/b][/quote]



(Edited by CrazyPete at 7:17 pm on May 30, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

That's all in theory. But do you think all of the so-called "underground" militant groups will settle for that? I doubt it.

[Pete]

Ok. Two things.

First: Rueben I hit edit instead of reply when I went to reply to your post, and didn't realize until after I had posted what I did that I did that. Nothing has been changed!

Second: This is what I posted:And the lst time peace was tried Sharon went to Temple Mounth. Before that Hamas struck hard, before that Netanyahu didn't really want that. And before that Peres lost his election, and then even earlier Rabin was assisinated.

[Zombie]

This has fuck all to do with jews or muslims, but with the ruling class, oppressing the working class

*sigh*, mate, while I agree with you on the socialist revolution, I do not however completely go for your slightly arrogant affirmation which is "The religious element is bullshit".
If you want, I can buy you a ticket to Israel, and Palestine, and any other Muslim or Christian ME country, and you can see for yourself.

Religion has ALWAYS fucked things up, on one level or another, specially in that part of the world.
Muslims, Christians and Jewish will never learn to live peacefully with eachother overthere, the Palestine conflict fueling the neverending hatred they have for each other.

In my own country,a supposedly diverse and peaceful country, Christians and Muslims constantly fight eachother, for whatever reason it may be, fueling the hatred towards one another. Believe me, I have lived in both societies, had friends from both parties, and I can assure you, politics and religion are VERY intertwined in the ME. This is not to mention the cultural aspect.

Forgive me my friend, but I am sick and tired of people not realising that there is more to conflicts than just politics.
What if the Israeli-Palestine conflict was capitalist by nature? You only mentionned territorial invasions, but whatabout cultural and religious ones? Did it ever come to mind that this conflict can be a very devious and vicious circle?

I am not saying Jews, Muslims and Christians hate eachother by nature, I am saying that Religion is playing it's devilish part in any conflict opposing distinct cultures. In this case, Palestine(mainly muslim) vs Israel(mainly Jewish).

Finally, to give a last statement, I do not believe that Israel should entirely go back to Palestinians. This is somewhat of a joke. Maybe in the early days of the conflict it would have worked, but not now. What should be given to both parties, is an opportunity of compromise. OF FAIR COMPROMISE.I'm not saying this is the ultimate solution, but that to go for a 100-0 or 0-100 while disregarding the possibilities of a 50-50 is just plain imbecile.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

No. You are wrong.

The rulers, or "ruling class" but i hate using that term, have turned this subtley into a religious conflict. They have made some of the people believe that this is religious conflict. But it is not. Neither side is really fighting for a religious ideal. Politics is leading this war, not religion.

The capitalist West is turning this into a religious war because they want the eradication of religion just as much as some of the wannabe radicals on this site who continuously quote Karl Marx's oh so wise words, "Religion is the opiate of the people".

There are fanatics. Of course there are. But these exist all over the world and because they are fanatics, they are not following their religion properly and therefore cease to be the religous warriors they claim to be.

And even in the Middle Ages in the conflicts you refer to when you say, "Religion has ALWAYS fucked things up, on one level or another, specially in that part of the world", the politics of the time will have shaped the conflict first, and then the rulers allowed the people to believe they are fighting for their religion.

You do not understand. When fanatics claim to be fighting for their religion, they actually cease to be following their religion properly and this means it is not religious war.

But anyway, again, this is Israelis and Palestinians...not Jews and Muslims

[Sinistra]

coection for ZOMBIE , it is not that christian , jews and mulims will never be able to live together . it is just that the muslims won't be able to live with christians and jews .

alot of you say that this is not a jew muslim issue , it is an israely arab/palestenian issue . what you don't know is that the arab israely conflict is one of the visrsions of the jewish muslim conflist , wich started in~628 , when mohamed chased 2 jewish tribes out of Madina , and as for the third tribe , he killed all the men , and inslaved the women and children . ( can you believe that 1 bilion people follow this sadist ????!!!!!!!! ).

[Blasphemy]

Sinistra, there are over one million Muslim citizens in Israel, who do not work against the country, who do not work against the Jewish population, but, unfortunately, they are treated like second-grade citizens. Maybe if we gave a chance to be part of our society, they wouldn't be so anti-Israel.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Sinistra....Why do you dive into stories from the Qu'ran?

If you want to talk about Muhammed and the children of Israel, it was they who chased Muhammed into a cave. In the cave, the Spider spun his web to hide Muhammed from the Jewish people.

Not that this has any relevance to the topic. I just wanted to prove how uselessly informed you are on stores from the Qu'ran. Read the whole poem before you comment on it.

You've also just said something which abut 5 people have already said about the apparent history of Jew-Muslim conflict. Keep up.

And this IS an Israeli-Palestinian issue. Why you say "arab/palestinian" I don't know, Israeli people are Arab peoples as well.

[Blasphemy]

Socialsmo, it is hard to try and ignore the many religious elements instilled in this conflict. Many Palestinian leaders have called for a "Jihad" against Israel, which is, as you probably know, a religious war waged against infidels. In this case, the infidels are the Zionist Jews, and they must be fought against in Allah's name, according to one belief. Organizations such as Hamas and the Islamic Jihad support a holy religious war against Israel and against its Jewish citizens. Not all, of course, support such a religious war. Some organizations do believe this is a national conflict and not a religious one. Tanzim, PFLP and others are secular national-liberation organizations.

[Pete]

a religious war waged against infidels

Jihad is not always a physical war. It is also mental battle with oneself against the prevailing forces around you. Although it can be either or both, it is wrong to see it always as being violent.

The Final Jihad by Islamic-World.net (http://islamic-world.net/papers/jihad.htm)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

CrazyPete beat me to it....

Don't let our medias confuse you as to the real meaning of Jihad.

[Invader Zim]

I would like to revert back to my origional point as much as you may want a palistinian state, it has got to the point where even if the Isreil's go back to he origional borders then there is not enough room for the farming required to feed 4 million + palistinians. That is also not including the necessaty of kicking the Isreili people out of there homes, which in its self would be a terrible crime against humanity.

Also the political problems of creating a palistinian state would be impossible. The returning of the Gaza strip and West bank would mean that the two parts of Palistine are not connected. What would you do about it? Create a bridge? A tunnel? Or the more likley, taking a chunk of Isreili land as a corridor? This solution would mean that Isreil getting split making communicasion between the two halves of Isreil near to impossible. By comminication I do not mean the phones but transporting of materials etc. No nation should be forced to commit suicide.

Other than the Palistinians and Isreili's simply accepting this and getting on peacefully there is nothing that can be done about it, and unless you can think of a better way of resolving the situation, i rest my case.

[Pete]

There can only be one state. And that state is Palestine.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 11:26 pm on June 1, 2003
There can only be one state. And that state is Palestine.

So you are suggesting that all of Isreil is given to the palistinians? or Just the parts taken from them?

Dont you think that either of these would be a bit harsh on the millions of Isreili's living there, its not like they have commited a crime, there government perhaps but not the civillians.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

That's what the Palestinians had to face in the first place....

So why not?

[Pete]

If some one steals something from you, in the due process of law they do not get to keep it.

[Pete]

The parts taken by Israel from Palestine is the entirety of Israel. Why the west supports a religious state (it was founded as a JEWISH homeland) I do not know. It is bullshit.

[Invader Zim]

The majority of palistine was largley uninhabited, the entire population only had a population of 300,000 the majority of whome will be now dead. So I disagree with the consept of the land being stolen... stolen from what the sand? The fact it was a desert was one of the reasons the British gave it to them, because it had little value to what remained of the empire. The settlers made it what it is now, so it is as much there land as it is the palistinians. However the palistinians hould be given a fair preportion of power in the government so they can be legaly represented in the state.

Also you are suggesting that millions of people should be thrown out there homes, to starve to death. That is sick. That is considerably worse than what RAM said about the MOAB. You would sentance those millions to povery and death... My god dont you think the Nazi's did enough harm to the Jewish people, is it your duty to make it that bit worse for them.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The majority of palistine was largley uninhabited, the entire population only had a population of 300,000 the majority of whome will be now dead.

And that matters why?

As you said, it was still PALESTINE. Completely irrelevant who or how many lived on the land. It was and is PALESTINIAN land. There are now more Palestinians, who need their land.

[Pete]

the entire population only had a population of 300,000

Bullshit. The Arab-Muslim population of both Israel and Palestine in 1947 was atleast 600 000, there were about 300 000 Israeli-Jews on both sides of the Partition line.

Also you are suggesting that millions of people should be thrown out there homes, to starve to death. That is sick

What is it that Israel is doing and has done?

My god dont you think the Nazi's did enough harm to the Jewish people, is it your duty to make it that bit worse for them.

What gives the Israeli's the authority to do this to the Palestinians. Anyways there is a large enough section of Judaism that is anti-Zionist for your label that this is the entire Jewish religion to be ill-founded.

Drop the Nazi arguement. Just because one group, the EUROPEAN group of this religion, suffered does not mean that an ARABIC group of people must suffer.

The very basis of your arguement is bullshit.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 12:00 am on June 2, 2003
the entire population only had a population of 300,000

Bullshit. The Arab-Muslim population of both Israel and Palestine in 1947 was atleast 600 000, there were about 300 000 Israeli-Jews on both sides of the Partition line.

Also you are suggesting that millions of people should be thrown out there homes, to starve to death. That is sick

What is it that Israel is doing and has done?

My god dont you think the Nazi's did enough harm to the Jewish people, is it your duty to make it that bit worse for them.

What gives the Israeli's the authority to do this to the Palestinians. Anyways there is a large enough section of Judaism that is anti-Zionist for your label that this is the entire Jewish religion to be ill-founded.

Drop the Nazi arguement. Just because one group, the EUROPEAN group of this religion, suffered does not mean that an ARABIC group of people must suffer.

The very basis of your arguement is bullshit.

Drop the Nazi arguement. Just because one group, the EUROPEAN group of this religion, suffered does not mean that an ARABIC group of people must suffer.

You are suggesting that millions of people are thrown from their homes because of the crimes commited by there government. If not the forceful eviction of millions and millions of people from there homes is not fascism then the generalisation of a people because of the actions of there government is. It is not the Isreili people commiting these crimes it is the ruling class, the isreili's as a people should not be punished for the actions of there government. What you are saying is fascist.


Bullshit. The Arab-Muslim population of both Israel and Palestine in 1947 was atleast 600 000, there were about 300 000 Israeli-Jews on both sides of the Partition line.

As it happens it appears we were both wrong. The population was 700,000. Which however does not alter my argument at all.

source (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/israelc.htm)

The very basis of your arguement is bullshit.

No its not, but the entire basis of your argument is fascism.

[Pete]

My figures from my Politics class show 300 000 Jews 300 000 Muslims in Israel, 300 000 Muslim and 20 000 Jews in Palestine.

In no way is what I am arguing fascist, but if you want to start name calling you are being Zionist-Nazi scum :)

Now come on and argue properly.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I think you're both being a bit harsh on eachother.

AK is somewhat correct in saying that the complete takeover would be difficult. But what is the answer to this in that case?

The only answer can be that the Palestinians have no option left but to do exactly what was done to them in the first place. I think you've also misinterpreted CrazyPete's words by saying his argument is Fascist. He is right, you cannot use the Nazi argument here.

The Palestinians suffered first. Now they need back what is rightfully theirs.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 12:37 am on June 2, 2003
My figures from my Politics class show 300 000 Jews 300 000 Muslims in Israel, 300 000 Muslim and 20 000 Jews in Palestine.

In no way is what I am arguing fascist, but if you want to start name calling you are being Zionist-Nazi scum :)

Now come on and argue properly.


My figures from my Politics class show 300 000 Jews 300 000 Muslims in Israel, 300 000 Muslim and 20 000 Jews in Palestine

Well according to that university whose site i posted you are incorrect. But it does not matter in the least really and there no real point in arguing about some pointless figure with no real relavance to the argument.

In no way is what I am arguing fascist, but if you want to start name calling you are being Zionist-Nazi scum

Hey i never started name calling you, i never said you were a fascist i said that argument was, you have already proved in countless posts you are not a fascist. Its just that one idea is.

I think you've also misinterpreted CrazyPete's words by saying his argument is Fascist.

Well his argument is to throw millions of people out of there homes and probably causing the death of about 20% of them, which is probably around 1 million people. That seems a little on the fascist side to me. Its not fascist because its Jews on the reciving end again but just because of the sheer brutality of the idea.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

AK47: Well according to that university whose site i posted you are incorrect. But it does not matter in the least really and there no real point in arguing about some pointless figure with no real relavance to the argument.

Dude, you mentioned figures. And yes, they are irrelevant because it doesnt matter how many people were living there. It was Palestinian land. You said it yourself. There is a lot of land in Britain that people aren't living on. Doesnt mean to say someone can come and nick it.

Well his argument is to throw millions of people out of there homes and probably causing the death of about 20% of them, which is probably around 1 million people. That seems a little on the fascist side to me. Its not fascist because its Jews on the reciving end again but just because of the sheer brutality of the idea.

That is, again, irrelevant. It was done to the Palestinian people in the first place. Just like with the Israeli innocent people, therewere innocent Palestinian people who suffered then. And that wasnt even for the actions of their rulers, but rather some insane nut in Germany! At least this time, it will be people suffering for what their actual rulers have done. The rulers which, of course, they elect.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 1:02 am on June 2, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 12:58 am on June 2, 2003


That is, again, irrelevant. It was done to the Palestinian people in the first place. Just like with the Israeli innocent people, therewere innocent Palestinian people who suffered then. And that wasnt even for the actions of their rulers, but rather some insane nut in Germany! At least this time, it will be people suffering for what their actual rulers have done. The rulers which, of course, they elect.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 1:02 am on June 2, 2003)


So you are suggesting that because the Isreili's did some shitty things to the palistinians that they should be punished in the same manner.

Dont you think that takes poetic justice way way way to the extream.

I also disagree it is not irrelavant it is quite possibly the most important part of the situation. No-one could sanley want millions of people to be made homless and to deam that as irrelavant is very odd.

[Pete]

Poetic justice. I never did quite understand that term, being a poet and all.

These people would not be homeless, they would just not be lording over the people who's land they have stolen.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I hate to see people suffering just as much as the next man. I'm of Arab descedant and it hurts more to Arab and anyone of Arab origin to see Arab peoples suffer. So, to see the Israeli people suffer is not something I want. But the Palestinian people are suffering.

They are being punished for something which has absolutly nothing to do with them at all. You are saying we should worry about the potential sufferings of the Israeli people and overlook the immediate suffering which is being forced upon the Palestinian people?

That doesn't work. THAT, to quote yourself, "is very odd"

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 1:15 am on June 2, 2003

They are being punished for something which has absolutly nothing to do with them at all. You are saying we should worry about the potential sufferings of the Israeli people and overlook the immediate suffering which is being forced upon the Palestinian people?

That doesn't work. THAT, to quote yourself, "is very odd"

No im not saying that, i am saying that by making 6 million + people homeless to give 4 million people homes is illogical and fascist.

They are being punished for something which has absolutly nothing to do with them at all.

If you were to kick millions of isreili's out there homes, exactly the same could be said.

Poetic justice. I never did quite understand that term, being a poet and all.

Its just a phrase i dont think it really as any poetic meaning.

These people would not be homeless, they would just not be lording over the people who's land they have stolen.

You did not say that, you said that they should get out of Israel. Also the Palistinians should not have complete control, it should be preportional to the population.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

So the majority should only be catered for?

Let's just give all the wealth of Britain to the middle classes the, yeh?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 1:53 am on June 2, 2003
So the majority should only be catered for?



No, but making 6 million people homless is a bit more than catering for a minority, dont you think?

You really have a talent for twisting other people words. :)

(Edited by AK47 at 2:09 am on June 2, 2003)

[Pete]

Would the palestinians (including those outside of palestine not allowed back in) not out number the israelis?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Just as the majority of the wealth rightfully belongs in the hands of the workers, the land belongs rightfully to the Palestinians.

And if it rightfully belongs to them, then numbers do not matter

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 2:13 am on June 2, 2003
Would the palestinians (including those outside of palestine not allowed back in) not out number the israelis?


Yes it includes the alistinians who are sill in refugee camps outside Israel after 40 years etc.

Just as the majority of the wealth rightfully belongs in the hands of the workers, the land belongs rightfully to the Palestinians.

And if it rightfully belongs to them, then numbers do not matter

I still cant believe that you would make 6 million people refugee's. Dont you think thats sick.

Well anyway its 02:17 am and im going to bed... To be continued.

(Edited by AK47 at 2:20 am on June 2, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

It is a MASSIVE shame that the Israeli people have been put in this situation. Don't get me wrong.

But the underlying fact is that the Palestinian people have been raped of their land and that matters first and foremost. They must be given back their land. Ideally, the people would coexist. Unfortunately, the imperialist powers have enusred that will not happen.

Maybe they can devise a new masterplan for the Israeli people.

[Reuben]

TRAVAREESHKAMO i feel that while your response is concordant with marxist theory it is somewhat divorced from reality on the ground. Of course the ultimate emancipation is class emancipation, however it unrealistic and unfair to expect the palestinians to percieve themselves as having soley class interests when such a great extent of their oppression they suffer on account of their ethnicity. Of course those who work (and their are massive rate of unemployment) suffer exploitation characteristic of capitalism. Yet as an occuppied people besieged by road blocks with no demoratic rights (they have no electoral power over the Israeli occuppying force) their lives are sharply different from those of Israeli workers. the Paleestinan working class, the petty bourgoirsie, palestinain peasents would benefit from an end to the occupationand while there common interest may arguably end here it is understandable that in the current context they percieve some kind of national interest. When their is a greater level ofnational equality between is Israelies and palestinians then that will be the context in which a unified class struggle can and must take place.

[scott thesocialist]

i think you guys all have good points but your to far ahead to even think about whats going on now. first you have to end the killing on both sides stop israel destroying homes in palestine, and the killing of innocent people then maybe just maybe you would have a end to the suicide attacks, then you can talk about land and everything else, you can't have talks without peace. the only solution is far everyone involved to work together towards a seperate state for palestine to reclaim some land but not all that is just to much to ask the israeli government they will never give back all the land.

[Reuben]

Regarding the debate between AK and Socialismo o muerte.

I fully support the palestinian right to return. AK there are in fact 9 million palestinia (including descendents) 6 million of whom are exiles. At the same time there is no necessity or justification for the Israeli/Jewish population to b chucked out. While you may not agree with the state of i fully support the right of any people to live where they wish in co-evistence with the native population. remember that many jews went to Israel as refugees, either form the Nazis, from Tsarist persecuation or the terrible situation many jews found themselves in post-1945. Europe, in my opinion, has totake alot of responsibility for zionism. The religious element of zionism is often oer-stated, it was essentially a secular ethic-nationalist movement formed to a great extent in repsonse to the centuries of racist persecution hwich at times had been almost universal to Europe. While i do not see zionism as the right response it is a response for which European states must take soem blame

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Reuben on 2:25 pm on June 2, 2003
Regarding the debate between AK and Socialismo o muerte.

I fully support the palestinian right to return. AK there are in fact 9 million palestinia (including descendents) 6 million of whom are exiles. At the same time there is no necessity or justification for the Israeli/Jewish population to b chucked out. While you may not agree with the state of i fully support the right of any people to live where they wish in co-evistence with the native population. remember that many jews went to Israel as refugees, either form the Nazis, from Tsarist persecuation or the terrible situation many jews found themselves in post-1945. Europe, in my opinion, has totake alot of responsibility for zionism. The religious element of zionism is often oer-stated, it was essentially a secular ethic-nationalist movement formed to a great extent in repsonse to the centuries of racist persecution hwich at times had been almost universal to Europe. While i do not see zionism as the right response it is a response for which European states must take soem blame

AK there are in fact 9 million palestinia (including descendents) 6 million of whom are exiles.

How do you work that out beacuse according to this site source (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/israelg.htm) the population in 2001 the population of the whole of israel is only 6,372,000. Other sources back this up so how do you work out that larger population? Perhaps the figure you gave includes those in refugee camps.



(Edited by AK47 at 3:32 pm on June 3, 2003)

[abstractmentality]

As Noam Chomsky writes in The Fateful Triangle, "700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled" in the 1948 conflict (p. 96). It should also be noted that Israel used "terror and psychological warfare" on the Palestinians to get them to leave. Also, in 1967, 430,000 Palestinians left (p. 97).

i know the arguing over number is a bit passed, but i had to just write in some numbers of the Palestinians that "left" (the term left implies they did it on their own free will, which i do not think happend much) or were exiled.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 2:32 pm on June 2, 2003)

[Pete]

Quote: from AK47 on 1:01 pm on June 2, 2003

Quote: from Reuben on 2:25 pm on June 2, 2003
Regarding the debate between AK and Socialismo o muerte.

I fully support the palestinian right to return. AK there are in fact 9 million palestinia (including descendents) 6 million of whom are exiles. At the same time there is no necessity or justification for the Israeli/Jewish population to b chucked out. While you may not agree with the state of i fully support the right of any people to live where they wish in co-evistence with the native population. remember that many jews went to Israel as refugees, either form the Nazis, from Tsarist persecuation or the terrible situation many jews found themselves in post-1945. Europe, in my opinion, has totake alot of responsibility for zionism. The religious element of zionism is often oer-stated, it was essentially a secular ethic-nationalist movement formed to a great extent in repsonse to the centuries of racist persecution hwich at times had been almost universal to Europe. While i do not see zionism as the right response it is a response for which European states must take soem blame

AK there are in fact 9 million palestinia (including descendents) 6 million of whom are exiles.

How do you work that out beacuse according to this site source the population in 2001 the population of the whole of israel is only 6,372,000. Other sources back this up so how do you work out that larger population? Perhaps the figure you gave includes those in refugee camps.



6 million are refugees The psot you quoted said that clearly.

[Reuben]

AK do you have trouble understanding simple statements. As i stated 6 million of the 9 million palestinians i mentioned are EXILES, therefore the population of Israel is irrelevant in either support or contradicting this statement. Of those exiles some are amongst the palestinian diaspora spread accross the Arab world some are in europe/america and some are in refugee camps.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Stop debating over figures. They are not relevant.

Even if the Palestinian people were a minority of 2, the truth remains the truth. The land would still be rightfully theirs.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Reuben on 12:50 pm on June 3, 2003
AK do you have trouble understanding simple statements. As i stated 6 million of the 9 million palestinians i mentioned are EXILES, therefore the population of Israel is irrelevant in either support or contradicting this statement. Of those exiles some are amongst the palestinian diaspora spread accross the Arab world some are in europe/america and some are in refugee camps.


No sorry i misread the post.

[Klondike]

I'm not very keen on the Israel-Palestine issue, so i'm not trying to challenge anyones' oppinions, but I wanna see if I got it right. You fellas wanna give Palestine back to the Palestinians? Forgive my ignorance, but I've never seen Palestine on a map, are referring to the Gaza strip and the west bank? From what i hear 'round here, Arabs and Israelis live peacefuly in Israel, they tell me that the Palestinians are the agressors, is this right?

[scott thesocialist]

the israelis are the ones doing wrong, they invade palestine stole land from the palestinians, what the point is that israel break international laws daily, and that the land should be given back to the palestinians. the suicide bombers are trying to defend a country with no army,succesful government,refugees mostly because of israeli forces destroying bulidings, not allowing civilians to go to work. the usa backs these aggressors alomg with militry parts bought from the uk. know wheres the politics in that?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Quote: from Klondike on 2:17 am on June 6, 2003
I'm not very keen on the Israel-Palestine issue, so i'm not trying to challenge anyones' oppinions, but I wanna see if I got it right. You fellas wanna give Palestine back to the Palestinians? Forgive my ignorance, but I've never seen Palestine on a map, are referring to the Gaza strip and the west bank? From what i hear 'round here, Arabs and Israelis live peacefuly in Israel, they tell me that the Palestinians are the agressors, is this right?


You've probably never seen it on a map because you have never seen any maps from the time before Israel.

No, the Palestinian people are not the aggressors. Israel was created smack bang in the middle of their land so the Jewish people could escape hatred in Europe. As you have noticed, their name has been completely blown off the map and is now Israel.

Yes, we are referring to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank........

....but also Jerusalem, Tulkarm, Janin, Nabulus, Jericho, Ram Allah, Bethlehem, Hebron, Gaza, Khan Yunis, Rafah.

These are all Palestinian lands being wrongfully occupied by the Israelis.

This is not petty violence from the Palestinians. They have had their whole country raped from them because of the wrongdoings of some crazed anti-semitic man in Germany.

[Reuben]

Good post Socialismo o muerte. The palestinians are constantly portrayed as violent for the sake of violent. However, having ones national rights subverted, being ethnically cleansed on more than one occassion, and being forced to live not only in terrible material conditions, but as an occuppied who have no political means by which they can affect their situation is in my opinion sufficient to drive most people to violence

[El Che]

Listen to Reuben folks.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Heeey!! Reuben was just re-iterating my point!! :biggrin:

[El Che]

Socialsmo o Muerte, I actually agree very much with you too and you certainly seem to know what you`re talking about.

I just mention Reuben because I`ve read his posts of this subject for ages now and he is always very moderate and avoids both kinds of extermism. Level headed and fair. For all the shit I see on TV and on newspapers about this, for all the people talking about it, I don`t recall hearing someone as consistently right as Reuben.

[Reuben]

hey thanks el che, thats really great to hear