How Can We Become A "legitimate" Force?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

How can radical worker movements once again become viewed as a legitimate force in the world politics among the workers and peasants?

And how did we lose our legitimacy among these two classes, which we ourselves belong? What was it?

* The distorted view of some communists that they are superior, due to having a more 'political correct' viewpoint than the masses?

* The failed Stalinist experiments?

* The propaganda of the capitalist states and the capitalist media?

A combination of these three? Do you believe any of these are correct? If not, what then? What has made us so unpopular, so despised, so hated among the people? Some self-righteous communists might think that "we" have been "betrayed" by the working class? But should we not rather look into if we have betrayed the people (whom we belong and are a part of) ourselves?

When the workers appreciate the bourgeoisie and the land owners more than they appreciate those who obstensibly favor the worker movement, then surely we should raise the warning signal and think?

IIRC, Guevara mentioned in one of his diaries (I believe it was The African Dream), that Western communists and radicals who visited Congo, were willing to join "the struggle", but they only wanted to be leaders of the movement, and not as "grunts", working their way updwards. I think we have a similar problem here in the West. Over the time I have experienced some vague hints that some
so-called "communists" and "revolutionaries" actually place themselves above the proletariat and the peasantry, because they believe they themselves are better. Like the shepherd guiding and ruling the lost sheeps.


Is the self-righteous view of some communists (and especially the self-righteous quite authoritarian leninists and the totalitarian stalinists) really a real and genuine problem of the workers movement?

[RebelDog]

How can radical worker movements once again become viewed as a legitimate force in the world politics among the workers and peasants?

I agree that such things are not on the agenda of the working class as much as they formerly were but I can only say that for sure in my own country, the UK. Such things return as capitalism fails. Hopefully capitalism will fail on a grand scale soon and radical workers movements will come to the fore.


And how did we lose our legitimacy among these two classes, which we ourselves belong? What was it?

* The distorted view of some communists that they are superior, due to having a more 'political correct' viewpoint than the masses?

* The failed Stalinist experiments?

* The propaganda of the capitalist states and the capitalist media?

I think you just about sum it up. I would add the globalisation agenda and the neo-liberalisation project which seen a lot of the old left get in to bed with the enemy.


What has made us so unpopular, so despised, so hated among the people? Some self-righteous communists might think that "we" have been "betrayed" by the working class? But should we not rather look into if we have betrayed the people (whom we belong and are a part of) ourselves?

I am not so sure that we are despised. The myth that communism doesn't work was given mileage by the failure and collapse of the USSR. It is hard to explain to people that the USSR was not a communist country and they are sometimes unwilling to trust that we should try the communist project again. I think people do feel betrayed as most of the working class do to varying degrees see socialism/communism as their ideology and their dream, however some feel their ideology has been carried off by a few intellectuals who condescend and became detached.

Again, the fog will clear quickly on the rapid decay of capitalism and the movement toward communism will be here where it was always meant to fight its greatest battle; at the terminal, global collapse of capitalism. Thats when the working class majority will recognise the need for revolutionary change. I think such a collapse of capitalism will rapidly politicise huge swathes of people worldwide and make emancipated people our new collective 'vanguard' and a buffer against totalitarian regimes and a return to capitalism.

[Dimentio]

Recreate communism in order to adapt it to the increased awareness of science generally.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Recreate communism in order to adapt it to the increased awareness of science generally.

Could you eleborate on that?

[rebelworker]

Well for starters, people would have to actually be active organisers in the working class.

I dont mean hawking trot tabloids or theorizing on the "counterrevlutionary nature" of unions.

I mean organizing with working people.

Have any of you ever talked politics at work. I mean like about the conditions of your workplace?

any ever actually organised with coworkers (unionized, started a grassroots caucus within your local)?

If not you and your politics will never be "relevant to the working class.

Unionization is at like 10% in the US, the state of democracy in the mainstream unions everywere is a disgrace.

No vanguard of a couple hundred collage studentsa is gonna change this.

Your politics are dead. Lenin is dead, trotsky is dead, Stalin is dead, fucking Bakunin is dead.

The first three did as much to discreadit communism among the working class as do the buregoise media today, thats a fact, like it or leave it.

When there are fighting workers movements where you live, communism may become relevant again, untill then, have fun on the internet.

PS sorry if this seems too abrasive to many of you but its the truth and the sooner people relise that the sooner we can get down to revolutionary politics.


PS a good example of this is that few months ago I posted a peice of theory on current workplace organising and relating to the unions. Like four people responded.

Today there is a fucking long debate going on about the execution of the Romanovs.
For fucks sake people, your killing me...

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 01:46 PM
PS a good example of this is that few months ago I posted a peice of theory on current workplace organising and relating to the unions. Like four people responded.

Today there is a fucking long debate going on about the execution of the Romanovs.
For fucks sake people, your killing me...
Excellent point.

Whether we like it or not, to most people out there communism means, Stalin, Mao, food shortgages, crap living conditions, nuclear accidents etc.

We have to bury our past and move on otherwise we'll never pursuade people into what communism actually is about.

Unions are one answer, but in many cases, especially in the UK, the Unions are the worst for 'rose tinted', 'wasn't it great in the olden days' type of thinking.

That is why, to a lot of people, Unions are seen as prehistoric, dogmatic beasts, simply trying to eek out a few more pence (or cents) from their masters.

The fact is that times have changed and the 'working class' in the industrialised countries are far better off now than when the Unions had their hayday in the late 19th and mid 20th centuries.

The REAL modern working class are working in sweatshops and farmers fields earning 50p a week, and they don't have Union representation, and even the ones who do can't do anything because the authorities in those countries crack down hard on the slightest sign of 'proletarian activity'. All with the support of the Industrialised nations.

We, as a movement have to re-invent ourselves in the eyes of the people, show them the benefits of a truly communist world, not keep harping on about the past.

[Comrade-Z]

I think a simple thing that we could do is do less preaching and more raising of questions. A lot of people get annoyed with any "preachers" who think they know All The Answers, and for good reason, as they are bombarded with people claiming that all the time. What we need to do is get people re-evaluating things that they are taking for granted and get them into a critical, skeptical mindset about the current system and pronouncements of the ruling class, and that happens with raising open-ended questions and just letting those questions float in the public discourse without immediately jumping to put in our two cents.

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by Comrade-[email protected] 7 2006, 05:05 PM
I think a simple thing that we could do is do less preaching and more raising of questions. A lot of people get annoyed with any "preachers" who think they know All The Answers, and for good reason, as they are bombarded with people claiming that all the time. What we need to do is get people re-evaluating things that they are taking for granted and get them into a critical, skeptical mindset about the current system and pronouncements of the ruling class, and that happens with raising open-ended questions and just letting those questions float in the public discourse without immediately jumping to put in our two cents.
Agreed,

But to do that effectively we need a voice in the media (yes the bourgeoise media).

The old socialist press is pretty much dead and buried. In the UK, The Daily Mirror doesn't really push socialism as it used to do, the Daily Record (the Scottish Daily Mirror) is little better and the Morning Star has a tiny readership compared to the major papers.

There is no such thing as a 'socialist' tv channel, certainly not in the UK anyway.

That doesn't give us much opportunity to get out message across, and all the time, the masses are being subjected to the capitalist media, patronising them, blinding them, numbing their sense of reality.

But that is the challenge we face if we are to succeed.

[Rawthentic]

Wrong, advocating socialism in the bourgeios media wont cut it, and most certainly wont be allowed. Its like Leninist and Trot parties trying to bring about communism through bourgeios elections. Not gonna work, we need to act automously from the capitalist system and have worker self-organization, without the need of any bourgeios crap.

[Delta]

I agree with most of what's said above. In addition, I think it's important to not simply shrug off all elections and mainstream efforts as wasted reformism. These efforts can make real progress (although not the final aim) and getting people involved and participating in those things can raise awareness and make people more radical. For example, how many people do you think have attended an anti-Iraq war rally and gone home thinking that corporations wield too much power in politics? And this seed can often lead to rejection of capitalism and other positive aims. Election-wise, many people tend to believe that the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum that exists in their country, between the right and the left (supposedly the Democrats in the US-ha!). By moving the center of politics to the left, you bring a lot of people's opinion there also.

I guess I just get tired of people dissing constructive efforts and sitting around at their computers eating cheetos saying "you can't get anywhere with bourgeois elections".

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Wrong, advocating socialism in the bourgeios media wont cut it, and most certainly wont be allowed.

Who is going to stop it, and how?

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 07:06 PM
Wrong, advocating socialism in the bourgeios media wont cut it, and most certainly wont be allowed.
Won't cut it???

If by 'won't be allowed' you mean that the capitalist media will target the socialist press then of course they will, they will set out to destroy it.

What do you think will happen to your 'workers organisation' as soon as it sticks it's head up!!!

Will the capitalist media throw a tea party for it???

Of course not, it will be targeted and destroyed as well.

Like it or not 'the media' is the most powerful tool in the modern armoury, would anyone argue with that?

So, get in there and use it, speak to the working classes, wake them up, get them interested in politics again and get them interested in leftist policies again.

[Rawthentic]

Okay, so you think that the workers are going to get interested in revolution or leftist politics by hearing it on the bourgeios media? No, its not a thing of interest, revolution is a thing of necessity for the working class. They will pick up the idea of revolution when the material conditions call for it, not by being preached at by some vanguard bourgeios media.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 08:14 PM
Okay, so you think that the workers are going to get interested in revolution or leftist politics by hearing it on the bourgeios media? No, its not a thing of interest, revolution is a thing of necessity for the working class. They will pick up the idea of revolution when the material conditions call for it, not by being preached at by some vanguard bourgeios media.
indeed i for one agree with you.

the reason we are not being considered as an alternative is because the neccesity of an alternative to capitalism is not yet here.
material conditions are against us for now but the signs are there that things are changing.
just look at how many americans think of say FOX news ? everyone i talked to recognises it as the governments outlet for news they aprove of.

first it has to hurt in the proletarian wallet before poeple can be bothered to do something about it.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Si Pinto

So, get in there and use it, speak to the working classes, wake them up, get them interested in politics again and get them interested in leftist policies again.

Should we 'get in' and 'use' the bourgeois state as well? After all, running in elections will get us exposure won't it? Raise the profile? Get our ideas out there?

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 08:14 PM
Okay, so you think that the workers are going to get interested in revolution or leftist politics by hearing it on the bourgeios media?
Those are two very different scenarios. Revolution and enlightening people on leftist politics.

I'm not advocating trying to start a revolution by means of the media.

Waking people up from their political slumber, and giving them the truth, as opposed to the capitalist driven papers and TV stations is most certainly possible via the media, as is then giving them an alternative (Leftism).

This will not lead directly to a Revolution, but people are more likely to question their situation (and other peoples).

A politically aware proletariat must be one of our main objectives, surely?

How and by what means we do it is immaterial.

The media is a very powerful tool, already set up to do that job, I certainly wouldn't argue with leftists using it to reach that objective, that's all.

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 10 2006, 05:57 PM
Should we 'get in' and 'use' the bourgeois state as well? After all, running in elections will get us exposure won't it? Raise the profile? Get our ideas out there?
I've advocated destroying the state from within before on this forum, so my answer would obviously be yes.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Si Pinto
I've advocated destroying the state from within before on this forum, so my answer would obviously be yes.


The problem is, unless you run your campaign on the premise that you will abolish the state once in 'power' - attempting that would be incredibly counter-productive (not that running on a ticket of 'lets abolish the state' is likely to be very effective either).

If you're running in a bourgeois election, you are straight-way lending legitimacy to the liberal 'democratic' system - you're sending the message that voting in elections actually means something, that it can produce real change - that's bullshit, and only serves to undermine anti-statist, anti-capitalist movements which not only seek to abolish the present state of things but also provide an alternative, something different to the current system, not to participate actively in reproducing it.

And if you managed to get elected and then proceed to 'destroy the state' from within you will only alienate the very people you have just duped into voting.

Most people who vote in bourgeois elections expect to see their vote result in the formation of a somekind of new ruling 'democratic' government, not in a stateless society - trying to destroy the government without actually having support for this in the population will turn most people against you, and maybe even in some kind of military coup to re-assert the authority of the state.

Do you think joining the police force or the army is a good idea too? We could all become pigs and take the system down 'from within'...

Instead of trying to get people to vote for a stateless society, how about we organise ourselves and rally support to our case, outside of bourgeois influence? A novel idea i know.

[KC]

The point in participating in elections isn't to win; it's to raise awareness about the absurdity of this system.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 10 2006, 01:45 PM
The point in participating in elections isn't to win; it's to raise awareness about the absurdity of this system.
How does participating in the system raise awareness about the absuridty of the system?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 11 2006, 04:45 AM
The point in participating in elections isn't to win; it's to raise awareness about the absurdity of this system.

Are you saying that you support communists running in elections?

That is a fallacy, participating in the system is not how you point out its absurdity - running in bourgeois elections only legitimises the system, making elections appear as a real form meaningful rather than ceremonial form of 'democracy'. Not to mention that running in an election you cannot win is an immense waste of time, people power, resources - and money, something we are hardly rolling in.

Such resources would be better to use actively campaigning against participating in electoral 'democracy' - explaining why voting and elections mean and change nothing in a capitalist state, where no matter how you vote the same people will remain in power, whilst you will continue to be exploited.

If want to raise awareness about the absurdity of the system you need to communicate how and why it is absurd - organising outside of it, in ways that as much as possible represent the changes you wish to see in society, showing people that there alternatives, and that voting, elections and electoral parties only offer reforms for an unreformable system - capitalism and the state must be abolished.

If you run in elections to make a point about their absurdity, people will rightly ask you, 'if the system is so absurd - why are you becoming part of it?'

[Si Pinto]

Firstly....


Do you think joining the police force or the army is a good idea too? We could all become pigs and take the system down 'from within'...

If you want to debate something with me then fine, I'm all ears.

On the other hand if you are going to prove what a 'funny' twat you are then kindly just fuck off.
---------------------------------------------------



The problem is, unless you run your campaign on the premise that you will abolish the state once in 'power' - attempting that would be incredibly counter-productive (not that running on a ticket of 'lets abolish the state' is likely to be very effective either).

Firstly, what do you mean by abolish the state?

Do you think that the day after a revolution all states and boundaries will be suddenly abolished? Of course they won't, it will take a long time to get the logistics working within your society before you can even think about 'abolishing the state'.

Let's take the UK for example. The pyramid class system is the basis of the state in the UK. With the queen at the top, then the dukes, earls, etc.

and so on until you reach the working class.

So firstly you run your election with the idea of abolishing the royal family(you'd be amazed how many people in the UK wouldn't mind that option).

That knocks the top off the pyramid, the next layer, the Dukes, Earls and other hangers-on would automatically lose any support from the state, land ownership rights etc, so they can try working for a living like everyone else, or just piss off to Monaco on their luxuary yacht.

Now using the UK as an example presents a problem, the House of Lords, who would of course vote against these measures from the outset.

Easy...abolish the House of Lords. Their is a facility within the law which would allow this.

It was partly demonstrated in WWII when law changes no longer had to be ratified by the House of Lords.

I agree that using the system to start a revolution isn't possible, but it can be used to provide a sound Socialist footing.

Which isn't bad for starters.


Most people who vote in bourgeois elections expect to see their vote result in the formation of a somekind of new ruling 'democratic' government, not in a stateless society

Actually I think you'll find most people vote to keep the status quo, but I agree with your basic point.

That's why I say that using the state mechanisms to start a revolution won't work, but there are tangible socialist goals that can be acheived, which provide a starting point.


And if you managed to get elected and then proceed to 'destroy the state' from within you will only alienate the very people you have just duped into voting.


No-one's duping anybody!!

There is a strong anti-royal current in the UK (I'm sure others here from the UK will back me up on this).

I don't live in the US but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a strong anti-capital hill current there as well.

Use their own system to bring about their downfall, I see no problem with that.


that's bullshit, and only serves to undermine anti-statist, anti-capitalist movements which not only seek to abolish the present state of things but also provide an alternative,

But you are not providing an alternative, because no-one is listening to your alternative.

Your way of thinking finds itself in a Catch-22 situation.

1 - You must have a politically aware proletariat for the revolution.

2 - The fact that they are not politically aware prevents you from getting your message across to make them politically aware.

How do you address this?

By using the media of course!!! Yes even one touched by nasty bourgeois people.

Marx was right, the capitalists HAVE sewn the seeds of their own downfall, by creating a method for us to reach the people we need to.

That's what I've been advocating all along on this thread.

Now i'm not saying it's easy, it will take commited leftists with money, for starters, but it is viable.


Instead of trying to get people to vote for a stateless society, how about we organise ourselves and rally support to our case, outside of bourgeois influence? A novel idea i know.

Tell me how your going to rally support to your cause when no-one is listening?

By extolling the virtues of Chairman Mao?

Get your head out of the sand for gods sake.

Facing the truth might be 'a novel idea' for you to try as well.