What Will Happen In Gaza

[Zapata]

what do people think will happen in gaza? israel's invasion has detained many hamas leaders, but it does not seem to be any closer to rescuing shalit. will it provoke another intifada? what are your thoughts

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 07:30 PM
what do people think will happen in gaza? israel's invasion has detained many hamas leaders, but it does not seem to be any closer to rescuing shalit. will it provoke another intifada? what are your thoughts
your right sadly they have not got shalit yet...as for another infatida..I wasn't aware the 2nd one stopped i figured they were just taking a break.

[RedAnarchist]

I think Israel has totally over-reacted - it acted in a very american way by using violence before diplomacy.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 07:39 PM
I think Israel has totally over-reacted - it acted in a very american way by using violence before diplomacy.
well it knew it had a hcoie of releasing thousands fo terroirst or going in. it choose to go in

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by theraven+Jul 6 2006, 09:08 PM--> (theraven @ Jul 6 2006, 09:08 PM)
[email protected] 6 2006, 07:39 PM
I think Israel has totally over-reacted - it acted in a very american way by using violence before diplomacy.
well it knew it had a hcoie of releasing thousands fo terroirst or going in. it choose to go in [/b]
So, children are terrorists? There are Palestinian children imprisoned in Israelis jails, you know.

[theraven]

Originally posted by ThisAnarchistKillsNazis+Jul 6 2006, 08:41 PM--> (ThisAnarchistKillsNazis @ Jul 6 2006, 08:41 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 09:08 PM

[email protected] 6 2006, 07:39 PM
I think Israel has totally over-reacted - it acted in a very american way by using violence before diplomacy.
well it knew it had a hcoie of releasing thousands fo terroirst or going in. it choose to go in
So, children are terrorists? There are Palestinian children imprisoned in Israelis jails, you know. [/b]
so? are children somehow incapabel of commitin crimes?

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 07:39 PM
I think Israel has totally over-reacted - it acted in a very american way by using violence before diplomacy.
Irael has not overreacted; rather it has used a simple hostage situation to warrant the active destruction of a government which claims itself that it does not have power over the militants. I think they even released a statement condemning the illegal seizure of the man (illegal because POWs are supposed to be documented and given international access).

EDIT: also, the imprisonment of children is not necessarily a cause for fear - the fact that Israel allows interrogation techniques that amount to torture under international law and they recently decided that release of prisoner records doesn't have to occur until 40+ days after capture are reasons to be afraid. This invisibility of prisoners is used to allow harsher torture, such as that sustained through rendition programs and at "gitmo." Except the media won't talk bad about Israel.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 08:52 PM
so? are children somehow incapabel of commitin crimes?
No, everyone is capable of commiting crimes, kids just have a harder time going about it, than say occupational troops. Also, what Israel defines as crimes could be anything from political activism to cerfew violation. Think about it this way, if us nutty pinko's took control of your country and jailed anyone who waves your bloody red white and blue, you could be convicted of terrorism for waving a flag that belongs to your terrorist nation. This is general IDF logic. It is illegal to wave around the Palestinian flag in Israel, and if that isnt an absurd and ultimately fascistic violation of expression, what is? Furthermore, many kids have been thrown in jail for throwing rocks at tanks. I support the rock throwers 100%, why? because, although it is a practically futile act, it demonstrated symbolic resistance to Israeli terror. Putting those tanks in Palestinian zones is an act of intimidation more than any thing else. To throw a rock at the tank implies that you have put your fear of the tank (which if you saw rolling down your street, you would feel as well) aside, and therefore have shown that these terror tactics will not work on the Palestinian people on their own land.

If the law is unjust, then the 'criminal' who violates it is fighting the crime of the oppressive code of laws. Or do you think that the White Rose society and the ANC were criminals too?

[theraven]

No, everyone is capable of commiting crimes, kids just have a harder time going about it, than say occupational troops. Also, what Israel defines as crimes could be anything from political activism to cerfew violation. Think about it this way, if us nutty pinko's took control of your country and jailed anyone who waves your bloody red white and blue, you could be convicted of terrorism for waving a flag that belongs to your terrorist nation. This is general IDF logic. It is illegal to wave around the Palestinian flag in Israel, and if that isnt an absurd and ultimately fascistic violation of expression, what is? Furthermore, many kids have been thrown in jail for throwing rocks at tanks. I support the rock throwers 100%, why? because, although it is a practically futile act, it demonstrated symbolic resistance to Israeli terror. Putting those tanks in Palestinian zones is an act of intimidation more than any thing else. To throw a rock at the tank implies that you have put your fear of the tank (which if you saw rolling down your street, you would feel as well) aside, and therefore have shown that these terror tactics will not work on the Palestinian people on their own land.

1) I don't know what crimes the kids are in on, nor do you apparently. so debating that is futile
2) rock throwing is indeed harmfl, espeically since gunmen will hide among rock throwers someitmes
3) I am sure there fear is also lessedend b the fact that the tankd rivers won't run over them..


If the law is unjust, then the 'criminal' who violates it is fighting the crime of the oppressive code of laws. Or do you think that the White Rose society and the ANC were criminals too?

to be fair some members of the ANC were crimianls in the true sense.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 02:10 PM

1) I don't know what crimes the kids are in on, nor do you apparently. so debating that is futile


2) rock throwing is indeed harmfl, espeically since gunmen will hide among rock throwers someitmes



3) I am sure there fear is also lessedend b the fact that the tankd rivers won't run over them..


to be fair some members of the ANC were crimianls in the true sense.

1-The kids are on various different crimes, most of which being resistance to the criminal occupation. Those who have actually commited real crimes should dealt with by Palestinians, and not by a foriegn occupational force who simply resolves to lock young girls up for many years, robbing them of their youth. I heavily doubt that any is imprisoned for killing anybody, and doesnt your judicial system teach that a person is innocent until prooven guilty? many are imprisoned without such proof, for crimes that if commited by an Israeli, would likely be met with slap on the wrist punishments.

2-Oh that poor gunman! lets feel sorry for him! ok, so you have a guy with a big machine gun, whos only restrictions are those of international opinion (which are very easily ignored by the rest of the world, take for example the case of Iman al-Hams (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html)) A rock thrown by a thirteen year old child is FAR less harmful than a bullet for a machine gun, ask yourself this, how many Israeli soldiers have been killed by rocks, and how many Palestinian kids have been killed by Israeli bullets? I think you will see that Israel has a slightly unfair advantage here...

3-Oh dont think that the child old throwing a rock is safe by any means.
http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/Faris.jpg
The boy in this iconic and famous picture, for instance, was named Fares Udah, and although he survived this encounter with the tank, he was shot dead a week later. He was only 13. The trick is that they occupational forces usually do not kill in front of the media, that way most people who never do more than scratch the surface will support Israeli "Democracy", which of course is a load of bullshit, Aparthied South Africa claimed to be a democracy as well, in that its white citizens were able to vote, but it is useless for me to compare Israel to Aparthied South Africa, as it is apparent that you have sympathies for both.




http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/pointing1.jpg

This is who the forces of "democracy" are.

[theraven]

1-The kids are on various different crimes, most of which being resistance to the criminal occupation. Those who have actually commited real crimes should dealt with by Palestinians, and not by a foriegn occupational force who simply resolves to lock young girls up for many years, robbing them of their youth. I heavily doubt that any is imprisoned for killing anybody, and doesnt your judicial system teach that a person is innocent until prooven guilty? many are imprisoned without such proof, for crimes that if commited by an Israeli, would likely be met with slap on the wrist punishments.

1) so israel should just not charge anyone with harrasing hier soliders or doing something agaisnt them?that makes sense

2)yes the famed palestian judical system

3) I'm sorry but if the girl commits a crime chances are she will be locked up

4) that only applies in a non-war time situation. the judical system in a warzone is vastly different.

5) generall israelis aren't suicide bombers...



2-Oh that poor gunman! lets feel sorry for him! ok, so you have a guy with a big machine gun, whos only restrictions are those of international opinion (which are very easily ignored by the rest of the world, take for example the case of Iman al-Hams) A rock thrown by a thirteen year old child is FAR less harmful than a bullet for a machine gun, ask yourself this, how many Israeli soldiers have been killed by rocks, and how many Palestinian kids have been killed by Israeli bullets? I think you will see that Israel has a slightly unfair advantage here...

the gunmen i was refering to in my quote was an arab. you see someitmes gunmen hide among stone throwing kids and then shoot at israeli soliders.



3-Oh dont think that the child old throwing a rock is safe by any means.

he did manage to survive didnt' he



The boy in this iconic and famous picture, for instance, was named Fares Udah, and although he survived this encounter with the tank, he was shot dead a week later. He was only 13.

I wonder what he was doing then..


The trick is that they occupational forces usually do not kill in front of the media, that way most people who never do more than scratch the surface will support Israeli "Democracy", which of course is a load of bullshit, Aparthied South Africa claimed to be a democracy as well, in that its white citizens were able to vote, but it is useless for me to compare Israel to Aparthied South Africa, as it is apparent that you have sympathies for both.

of course the differenec is Israel does not deny citizne based on race. it has arab, druze, jewish and many other races as citizens. all of which posses voting rights. they do not extend th same citizne to those in the territories, but that is because the status of that area is undecided. and no i have no sympathies ofr the aparthied government, its is however true that some of members of the ANC did things that were wrong. Luckily mandela was as good a guy as he was.

[EwokUtopia]

As long as they are occupying Palestinian territories and building settlements, there will be resistance to that. If you want to stop the bloodshed, which the Israeli's claim they do, then they need to pull out. Palestinian resistance is not centralized like the IDF, nobody can stop the (rightly) pissed off Palestinian people from fighting back against the power that oppresses them. Only Israel can bring peace, because only the oppressor can peacefully end the oppression, and they are doing much the opposite right now, so unfortunately, there will be violence.

Suppose your country was invaded by a foriegn power, and you were forced to move out of your home and live in a squalid refugee camp where your people are hindered daily and even killed from time to time (at a rapidly increasing rate, I may add), would you resist?

You seem to have a FOX news perception of the conflict with the Israeli soldiers defending their land and the Palestinians as being the radically religious terrorist group. Im tired of typing for today, so I will send a music video instead, its just easier that way.

Meen Erhabe (http://www.jsalloum.org/erhabe.wmv)

[theraven]

As long as they are occupying Palestinian territories and building settlements, there will be resistance to that. If you want to stop the bloodshed, which the Israeli's claim they do, then they need to pull out. Palestinian resistance is not centralized like the IDF, nobody can stop the (rightly) pissed off Palestinian people from fighting back against the power that oppresses them. Only Israel can bring peace, because only the oppressor can peacefully end the oppression, and they are doing much the opposite right now, so unfortunately, there will be violence.

as long as the arabs keep blowing up israelis and attacking them israel must remain, for how els can they assure peace. surrendering has never kept an enemy away for long.


Suppose your country was invaded by a foriegn power, and you were forced to move out of your home and live in a squalid refugee camp where your people are hindered daily and even killed from time to time (at a rapidly increasing rate, I may add), would you resist?

sure, however that doesnt' mean the enemy would be nice to me.

[EwokUtopia]

yeh.......might want to get a history book on that one....who started blowing who up first? dont forget that before Israel became a state, the proto-israeli ashkenazi settlers conducted (conventionally defined) terrorist attacks against British and Arabs. The Palestinians do not strike against Israel because they want all Jews to leave their land, rather the opposite. I have never heard a Palestinian say they hate Jews. Lets go back a while to the end of the Reconquista in Spain. Jews living under Moorish Muslim rule were alowed more freedom than anywhere else in Europe, and when the Christian Spaniards kicked them out of their newly stolen land (we begin to see parallels), Many of the Jews went to Palestine and lived very peacefully alongside their Muslim and Christian Arab neighbours. It continued this way for centuries, until Zionists began to claim the land as a Jewish state. Does this not seem a tad unfair to you? suppose the Roma and Sinti people (also killen en masse during the holocaust, or Porajmos as they call it) decided to go to India and take that over because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, and in the process of creating a Roma state, they kicked out 90% of the indians and made the remaining 10% into second class citizens, this wouldnt be very fair, would it? now I assume you are an American, so Suppose the Aboriginals of the land you stole from them kicked you and all other white americans out to the West Coast and Delaware Strip. This would be more just than what the Israeli's did to the Arabs because at least white americans were the ones who stole the Aboriginals land. The Israeli's made the Arabs, historically one of the most pro-semitic peoples, pay for the crimes of the Romans and Nazi's and Czars, and whoever else persecuted Jews. This is sadly ironic and not fair in the slightest. Can you not even admit to that?

And dont give me any shit about suicide bombers, they are minor when compared to the fact that millions are left without water or power, and thousands are shot for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, or simply showing resistance to an evil power that you, if found in a similar situation, would resist as well.

[theraven]

You seem to have a FOX news perception of the conflict with the Israeli soldiers defending their land and the Palestinians as being the radically religious terrorist group. Im tired of typing for today, so I will send a music video instead, its just easier that way.

Meen Erhabe

wow so i am supposed to be converted by this shitty propaganda movie?

[EwokUtopia]

No, your shitty propaganda news has done its work well, i just put that up because it was easier than typing and basically had the same feel as what i was going to say anyways, plus im sure that a few people who actually belong at this forum may appreciate it. Nobody expects to convert you, nor would we want to, your ignorant media created opinions provide us with loads of laughs.

[theraven]

yeh.......might want to get a history book on that one....who started blowing who up first? dont forget that before Israel became a state, the proto-israeli ashkenazi settlers conducted (conventionally defined) terrorist attacks against British and Arabs.

the only convertnaionl attack that comes to mind is one done by an extemreist group where they blew upt he king david hotel (and this was agaisn the britsi not the arabs). funny thing though..they called the brtis 30 minutes before hand.


The Palestinians do not strike against Israel because they want all Jews to leave their land, rather the opposite. I have never heard a Palestinian say they hate Jews.

i presuem you are either lieing or don't know many arabs.


Lets go back a while to the end of the Reconquista in Spain. Jews living under Moorish Muslim rule were alowed more freedom than anywhere else in Europe,

which isn't saying much, and btw the moorish empire was far form heaven for jews..


and when the Christian Spaniards kicked them out of their newly stolen land

actualy funy thing...the spainards at this time were a lot like the "paletsianins" you so love. they had lived in all of spain, thne the moors came and kciekd them out. they managed to reconquer it. and yea they were bastards


, Many of the Jews went to Palestine and lived very peacefully alongside their Muslim and Christian Arab neighbours.

actually most ended up in italy or turkey. however those forutnatly enough to return to israel must have ben happy to see their holy of holies covered with a mosque.


It continued this way for centuries, until Zionists began to claim the land as a Jewish state.

well it is the most logical place for a jewish state.


Does this not seem a tad unfair to you? suppose the Roma and Sinti people (also killen en masse during the holocaust, or Porajmos as they call it) decided to go to India and take that over because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, and in the process of creating a Roma state, they kicked out 90% of the indians and made the remaining 10% into second class citizens, this wouldnt be very fair, would it?

who are the roman and sinit people?


] now I assume you are an American, so Suppose the Aboriginals of the land you stole from them kicked you and all other white americans out to the West Coast and Delaware Strip. This would be more just than what the Israeli's did to the Arabs because at least white americans were the ones who stole the Aboriginals land. The Israeli's made the Arabs, historically one of the most pro-semitic peoples, pay for the crimes of the Romans and Nazi's and Czars, and whoever else persecuted Jews. This is sadly ironic and not fair in the slightest. Can you not even admit to that?

oh yea the arabs are very pro jew lol. what do you base this on? the fact that they allowed jews to live there when the spaniards kicked thme out?


And dont give me any shit about suicide bombers, they are minor when compared to the fact that millions are left without water or power, and thousands are shot for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, or simply showing resistance to an evil power that you, if found in a similar situation, would resist as well.

I would probably resist if conquered, but I wouldn't expect my conquere to give up on moral grounds.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 06:34 PM
No, your shitty propaganda news has done its work well, i just put that up because it was easier than typing and basically had the same feel as what i was going to say anyways, plus im sure that a few people who actually belong at this forum may appreciate it. Nobody expects to convert you, nor would we want to, your ignorant media created opinions provide us with loads of laughs.
what propagand news? I don't watch much tv news my views are based on my expicences and what i've observed on the varius news papers and news sites. yours is based on music videos. i wonder which has more merit.

PS i agree this site gives me lots of laughs to.

[Dean]

Well mine are based on the findngs of human rights organizations. Maybe that's why you wont reply to those arguments?

Anyways, he's right - the news, printed or taped, goes through various so - called anti-semetic censors which are pro - Israeli. Recently CNN was told to stop saying "occupation" in reference to the illegally occupied territories, and CNN complied, for example.

[EwokUtopia]

I know many Palestinians, and all of them have experianced hardships due to the occupation. They hate Israel, and are pissed off at the complaicency of most Israeli's, but they, along with all thinking people, do not equate Jews with Israel. Indeed, there are few people that they respect more than Israeli's who side with them and oppose the occupation. The only way that there is going to be a peaceful solution to the problem in Palestine is if the Israeli's allow the Palestinians to return to their land and live in peace with them. No thinking Palestinian wants all the Jews to leave, just like No thinking Aboriginal wants all non-natives to leave, sure, some of them say that, but you must understand the circumstances of their lives to understand why they say this, and you must remember that they constitute a minority of the Palestinian people. Palestinians, for the most part, would like to share the land with Jews on the unconditional condition that they are allowed to return to their land, and I firmly believe that if 150 million people can share Bangladesh, 30 million can share Palestine. Israeli's on the other hand are less open to the idea of sharing the land. Many say that it is because they want to secure a demographically Jewish state, but if this isnt Racism, what is? if they wanted a purely Jewish state, then perhaps an already populated land with a history of unequalled ethno-religious bloodshed wasnt exactly a smart choice. IMO the Jewish state should have been made out of East Prussia, rather than turned into the Russian Enclave of Kaliningrad. But should haves are irrelevant, the problem is that many Israeli's are unwilling to share land. A recent poll conducted by an Israeli study group showed that:
* 41% were in favour of segregation
* 40% believed "the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens"
* 63% believed Arabs to be a "security and demographic threat" to Israel
* More than two thirds would not want to live in the same building as an Arab
* 36% believed Arab culture to be inferior
* 18% felt hatred when they heard Arabic spoken
If you can find some way to justify this racism without falling back on the redundant and severely overplayed instances of suicide bombing (more children will starve today than the combined deaths of terror attacks in Israel and 9/11, so frankly, the latter isnt really that important, but the former never gets media attention) then we'll go from there.

[theraven]

I know many Palestinians, and all of them have experianced hardships due to the occupation. They hate Israel, and are pissed off at the complaicency of most Israeli's, but they, along with all thinking people, do not equate Jews with Israel

of course :lol:


Indeed, there are few people that they respect more than Israeli's who side with them and oppose the occupation

who respects their useful idiots?


The only way that there is going to be a peaceful solution to the problem in Palestine is if the Israeli's allow the Palestinians to return to their land and live in peace with them.

and then they can take it over and the jews will have to learn tiher palce again...ya right.


No thinking Palestinian wants all the Jews to leave, just like No thinking Aboriginal wants all non-natives to leave,

what the hell are you takling about here? "no thining aborignal wants all non-natives to leave". are you talking about american indians and the rest of amreica? in that case of course most indians don't want americans to leave, if amreicans left then the country would be pretty empty (the population of ameriancs that is full indian is very small i believe).


sure, some of them say that, but you must understand the circumstances of their lives to understand why they say this, and you must remember that they constitute a minority of the Palestinian people.

so even those who do sa that (and thus discount your whole theory) don't really count because they've had such bad lives. right.


Palestinians, for the most part, would like to share the land with Jews on the unconditional condition that they are allowed to return to their land, and I firmly believe that if 150 million people can share Bangladesh, 30 million can share Palestine.

30 million???? isreals population is labout 7 million people, and has one of the highest populations densities on earth. I don't think the populaion of the arabs in the tteorites is even that much, so where does 30 million coe from? l


Israeli's on the other hand are less open to the idea of sharing the land. Many say that it is because they want to secure a demographically Jewish state, but if this isnt Racism, what is? if they wanted a purely Jewish state, then perhaps an already populated land with a history of unequalled ethno-religious bloodshed wasnt exactly a smart choice. IMO the Jewish state should have been made out of East Prussia, rather than turned into the Russian Enclave of Kaliningrad.

1) Judiasm is an ethncity, but it spans many races. their are jews native to almsot every country on earth, and while the maortiy of jews in israel are ashkenazi, a substaitn number now are arabic and black.

2) jews wanted Israle becaues it is our holy land, not because of who lived there.


But should haves are irrelevant, the problem is that many Israeli's are unwilling to share land. A recent poll conducted by an Israeli study group showed that:
* 41% were in favour of segregation
* 40% believed "the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens"
* 63% believed Arabs to be a "security and demographic threat" to Israel
* More than two thirds would not want to live in the same building as an Arab
* 36% believed Arab culture to be inferior
* 18% felt hatred when they heard Arabic spoken
If you can find some way to justify this racism without falling back on the redundant and severely overplayed instances of suicide bombing (more children will starve today than the combined deaths of terror attacks in Israel and 9/11, so frankly, the latter isnt really that important, but the former never gets media attention) then we'll go from there.

link for these stats?

[EwokUtopia]

You are mixing nationalism and religion, that leads to a very dangerous cocktail. I dont have the time to respond to your ignorant and uneducated replies at the moment, but you asked for a link, and that is easy enough. I hope this will suffice for now. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1738508,00.html)

and by the way, 30 million was an overstatement, more like 7 million Israeli's + 4 million Palestinians living in occupied West Bank and Gaza + 6 million Palestinian refugees elsewhere who should and hopefully will return= 17 million sharing an area about the size of New Jersey, not nearly as dense as Java or Singapore or (currently) Gaza Strip.

Ill reply to the rest of your fearful zionazi bullshit in a bit, but im out for the meantime.

[theraven]

You are mixing nationalism and religion, that leads to a very dangerous cocktail. I dont have the time to respond to your ignorant and uneducated replies at the moment, but you asked for a link, and that is easy enough. I hope this will suffice for now.

Intereasting, it was a survey by an anti-racism center run by arabs which said jews had it out for arabs. I'd like to see the actual numbers of poele survey and also the actual questions.



and by the way, 30 million was an overstatement, more like 7 million Israeli's + 4 million Palestinians living in occupied West Bank and Gaza + 6 million Palestinian refugees elsewhere who should and hopefully will return= 17 million sharing an area about the size of New Jersey, not nearly as dense as Java or Singapore or (currently) Gaza Strip.

ok I could undertand the 4 milion in gaza/west bank wnating to return, but the others who gone off and stareted new lives shoudl have no right to return, plus that process owuld be rife with corrupiton

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:41 PM
ok I could undertand the 4 milion in gaza/west bank wnating to return, but the others who gone off and stareted new lives shoudl have no right to return, plus that process owuld be rife with corrupiton
...and yet you believe that the Jews, who were expelled by the romans 2000 years ago had not only the right to return, but to establish a Jewish state and kick the residents of the land they wish to build it on out...this was only a half century ago, those people are not the decendants of some distant diaspora (by the way, I believe that Jews have every right to live in Palestine if they wish, but this does not grant them the freedom to usurp almost all of the land for their own). How would it be rife with corruption? as long as nobody's homes are bulldozed in front of them, I dont see how this could be so bad of a thing. However, if 2000 years pass and those refugees have become cultures unto themselves in different parts of the world, they do not have the right to return and kick whatever inhabitants who live on that land out and re-establish a state of Palestine. They may come and go as they please, as may all people, but if they dare to tell another ethnicity what to do and where to live, then they turn from oppressed to oppressor. If this conflict teaches us nothing, it is that the barrier between oppressed and oppressor can be easily transgressed within 3 years, and this is a sad testament to all forms of racial pride.

Personally, I love both Jewish and Palestinian (as well as all other Arabic) cultures. This is why it saddens me to see them so divided. Why do I support Palestine? Israel has the upper hand and represents western Imperialism at its worst. The Oppression of Palestine is by no means the most dire world event at this time, but it is symbolic of the Oppression of the poor by the wealthy using the complaicent and unthinking petit bourgeois consumer class as weapons. I feel very sad for the innocents killed on both sides, but in a different way, I also have sympathy for both the suicide bomber and the murderous IDF soldier who kills innocent Palestinians without consequence to himself. Why? They are both humans, first and foremost, and secondly, the system that brainwashed and drafted the IDF soldier is the same system that killed the suicide bombers family and bulldozed his house. The only difference is that the latter knows he is a victim while the former does not. It is hardest to free the prisoner who does not see his own prison.

[theraven]

...and yet you believe that the Jews, who were expelled by the romans 2000 years ago had not only the right to return, but to establish a Jewish state and kick the residents of the land they wish to build it on out..

actually til the war of 48 all the land jews lived on was bought from tis orignal owner. after the war of 48 the state appriated abanodned land and gave it out to citizens who wanted land. neither are unusual..


this was only a half century ago, those people are not the decendants of some distant diaspora (by the way, I believe that Jews have every right to live in Palestine if they wish, but this does not grant them the freedom to usurp almost all of the land for their own).

no but they are the desnetnse of the people who left and moved on. far from the jews who preseved their culture for 2000 years


How would it be rife with corruption? as long as nobody's homes are bulldozed in front of them, I dont see how this could be so bad of a thing.

how would free movment of poor prole form third world coutnires to the first world NOT be corrupt?


However, if 2000 years pass and those refugees have become cultures unto themselves in different parts of the world, they do not have the right to return and kick whatever inhabitants who live on that land out and re-establish a state of Palestine. They may come and go as they please, as may all people, but if they dare to tell another ethnicity what to do and where to live, then they turn from oppressed to oppressor. If this conflict teaches us nothing, it is that the barrier between oppressed and oppressor can be easily transgressed within 3 years, and this is a sad testament to all forms of racial pride.


and what if they have rpresereved the culutre to the best of their abilty?

[EwokUtopia]

You really dont know what you are talking about, and are blatantly racist. Firstly, it doesnt matter how well preserved your culture is, or where your ancestors lived, to kick somebody out of the land they have lived on for all of their lives, and their ancestors lived on for millenia based on some religious/racial claim to that land is quite simple wrong. This is very reminicient of the Nazi Lebensraum, oh sure, Germanic people lived in parts of the Soviet Union around the time of the fall of the Roman Empire (more recently than when the Jewish diaspora began, I may add), but what the Nazi's did during that time period was an unspeakable crime that has yet to be matched. Even though what the Israeli's are doiung now isnt comparable to the crimes of the Third Reich, I am fearful for the future, because Israel has things that Hitler lacked, IE Nuclear Weapons, and thats why any violent solution to the problem is out of the question. Why did those Palestinians flee their land? hmm...perhaps because it was either that or face massacres like that of Dier Yassin for example, or perhaps because their homes were destroyed, or perhaps to flee the war, which is what most sane people would have done (and did in pretty much every other war of that intensity in history). Not to allow them to return was a blatant land grab. Do you really think that the Palestinians who were forced out just 50 years ago have forgotten their culture and moved on? this is perhaps the most ignorant and outrageous claim that you have made yet, and certainly prooves that you have little to no contact with any Palestinians.

And how dare you say that the movement of Palestinians to their homeland would be corrupt based on the fact that they are, as you say, poor. Most Palestinians I know are fairly affluent, or at least became so after they left the refugee camps they were forced onto. And every single one of them lives in this country (canada) temperarily, and plans to return to their rightful land. Their return does not mean that the Jews will all have to pack up and go back to Europe, this is outragously xenophobic paranoid thinking. You have prooven yourself to be a racist, thank you for prooving for me that zionism is racism.

And do not say that the Jews need a nation of their own, because they dont. No ethnicity does. I am a white Canadian, and I am proud that Canada is becoming a land of all colours, we stole this land, its only fair that we make amends by sharing it with the people of the world, after giving the decendants of the Indeginous inhabitants their fair share, as they deserve. It does not mean that my people will die, it means they will change, and change is good. If you wanted to keep the Jews a pure and Isolated people, perhaps you could have picked a more isolated place to set up a country, because there is no way in hell you can keep 7 million Jews culturally distinct with their 60 million non-jewish neighbours for longer than a century or two tops. And this is a good thing, after all, the old Israelite Jews who were forced out of Palestine by the Romans mixed with the peoples of Europe and North Africa to produce the Ashkenazim and Sephardim that we know as the modern Jews of today. mixture is not only good, it is inevitable. You want to remain isolated, go find an island and take all the like minded uber-zionists with you, let the non-racist jewish majority stay and add their spice to the world soup.

[Janus]

I'm not sure if it'll spark a full-blown Intifada but it certainly will provoke a strong resistance against this Israeli aggression and intimidation.

Hopefully, this can be sorted out before worse happens.

[Shadowlegion]

I think the rest of the world has screwed up staying involved in the middle east, big time. It's like watching two kids who the world community is essentially constantly arming go at each other, trying to get even for every little thing. I think they're both so horribly stubborn against compromise that we'd might as well just take away their dangerous weapons give them rocks to throw back and forth at each other for eternity.. maybe they'll finally realize how stupid the conflict is. Atrocities are atrocities, and you dont justify committing atrocities because someone committed atrocities, there's no point in believing in a better world if you want to make one like that.

[theraven]

you really dont know what you are talking about, and are blatantly racist. Firstly, it doesnt matter how well preserved your culture is, or where your ancestors lived, to kick somebody out of the land they have lived on for all of their lives, and their ancestors lived on for millenia based on some religious/racial claim to that land is quite simple wrong. \


sure but that isn't whats hapening here.

1) the arabs who live in israel have at best a mellina, but considering msot travelers to israel pre 1900 discribe it as a dirty, desolate place, with even jersualm seeming empty leads me to conculude that some are more recent migrants

2) the land isn't being stolen based on some ancient religous claim, the country became a jewish one out of nationalism, with one created for an arab quivelnt.

3) the land isn't being stolen. the land approiated after the war of 48' was takin because its owneres deserted it, the land taken now is taken in the coures of a war and done to help preserve the securty.


This is very reminicient of the Nazi Lebensraum, oh sure, Germanic people lived in parts of the Soviet Union around the time of the fall of the Roman Empire (more recently than when the Jewish diaspora began, I may add),

the difference being the germans already had a country. if perhaps they had been kicked out of the country and then retuned they would have a valid argument.


but what the Nazi's did during that time period was an unspeakable crime that has yet to be matched. Even though what the Israeli's are doiung now isnt comparable to the crimes of the Third Reich, I am fearful for the future, because Israel has things that Hitler lacked, IE Nuclear Weapons, and thats why any violent solution to the problem is out of the question.

so your upset that israel has the bomb so its impossibel for the arab countires around it to drive those jews into the sea? (ps they didn't succed in doing that anyway)



Why did those Palestinians flee their land? hmm...perhaps because it was either that or face massacres like that of Dier Yassin for example,

they fled because of roumurs of isolated incidents? oh well..


or perhaps because their homes were destroyed, or perhaps to flee the war, which is what most sane people would have done (and did in pretty much every other war of that intensity in history).

wow but the jews and other arabs managed to stay. i guess those people choose wrong.


Not to allow them to return was a blatant land grab.

why should they have been alowed to return? arab jews were kicked out of the rest of the middle east and israel took them in, the least its neighbros could do would be to taken in ther arab bretheren?


Do you really think that the Palestinians who were forced out just 50 years ago have forgotten their culture and moved on? this is perhaps the most ignorant and outrageous claim that you have made yet, and certainly prooves that you have little to no contact with any Palestinians.


heres an intreasting test for you

1) identify famous "palesitanin" poets, songwriters, writers, or artists

2) name and discuss "palestianin" governmetns of the past

3) illustrate to me "palestinain culture"

oh and I want all of the examples to be more thne 50 years old.


And how dare you say that the movement of Palestinians to their homeland would be corrupt based on the fact that they are, as you say, poor.

because that fact lends room to a lot of corruption. first of all it means countires their from wil use it as a way to send its poor to israel, becuase it doesnt want them, secodn of all how iwll you certify if someones "palestinaina"?


Most Palestinians I know are fairly affluent, or at least became so after they left the refugee camps they were forced onto. And every single one of them lives in this country (canada) temperarily, and plans to return to their rightful land.

so of course your middle class arab friends will want to return to (overcrwoded) israel which wil be rife with tension, instead of stayin in peaceful and prosperous canada.


Their return does not mean that the Jews will all have to pack up and go back to Europe, this is outragously xenophobic paranoid thinking. You have prooven yourself to be a racist, thank you for prooving for me that zionism is racism.


no, unfortunatly it will probably mean jews being murdered in the streets. I think you have a very rosy colored view of history if you think all israel has to do is let in the arabs and everythign will be a ok.


And do not say that the Jews need a nation of their own, because they dont. No ethnicity does.

no, but nations do.


I am a white Canadian, and I am proud that Canada is becoming a land of all colours, we stole this land, its only fair that we make amends by sharing it with the people of the world, after giving the decendants of the Indeginous inhabitants their fair share, as they deserve.

well good for you my charitble friend. luckily for you msot of those peopel dont' want ot mruder you.



It does not mean that my people will die, it means they will change, and change is good.

no change is nuetral. there is nothing inherently good or bad about change. if I saw if your leg that is change, but not a good one.


If you wanted to keep the Jews a pure and Isolated people, perhaps you could have picked a more isolated place to set up a country, because there is no way in hell you can keep 7 million Jews culturally distinct with their 60 million non-jewish neighbours for longer than a century or two tops.

no one is arguign for a pure jewish race (as if their is one), we are rgunig for a jewish majortiy state thoughh,

[Zapata]

look, i think this has gotten overly complicated. in my opinion, the question of who is at fault in palestine is simple. the world felt sorry for the jews after the holocaust, as they rightly should have, and then great britain decided to give israel their "ancestral homeland" (which shouldnt have ever been in gb's control anyways). unfortunately, other people were already living on that land, and had been for centuries. these people were largely evicted because the land they were living on happened to be another people's ancestral homeland. in modern times, especially in the united states, this tends to be forgotten.
however, whats been done is done, and completely rectifying what was done is completely impossible now. so because israel is here to stay, israel must learn to cooperate with the palestinians, and vice versa. conservative leaders like netanyahu and sharon in the likud party and arafat/much of hamas need to realize that they will never be able to occupy ALL of the "holy land", or completely eliminate israel, respectively. attacking and kidnapping israeli troops or launching full blown invasions into palestinian territory are steps in the wrong direction

[theraven]

look, i think this has gotten overly complicated. in my opinion, the question of who is at fault in palestine is simple. the world felt sorry for the jews after the holocaust, as they rightly should have, and then great britain decided to give israel their "ancestral homeland" (which shouldnt have ever been in gb's control anyways). unfortunately, other people were already living on that land, and had been for centuries. these people were largely evicted because the land they were living on happened to be another people's ancestral homeland.

most people left of thier own accord or had land they worked (but didn't own) sold to others.

the rest of your post i agree with however

[Zapata]

whether they were physically forced to leave or coerced to do so under those circumstances, the action and certainly the effect are fundamentally the same. and again, radical solutions from either side of the problem wont accomplish anything now

[Zapata]

i also must say that i like your little che quote there raven. he allegedly said "dont shoot", not "dont kill me", as he was being captured by the army. his line before/during execution was"i know you are here to kill me. shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man"

[theraven]

i also must say that i like your little che quote there raven. he allegedly said "dont shoot", not "dont kill me", as he was being captured by the army. his line before/during execution was"i know you are here to kill me. shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man"

oh well,apparently the peoples stories changed a bunch of times..so no big deal.


whether they were physically forced to leave or coerced to do so under those circumstances, the action and certainly the effect are fundamentally the same. and again, radical solutions from either side of the problem wont accomplish anything now

they were probably coereced when the new owners of the land wanted to use it, however when they left of their own accord there were probably a bunch of reasons.