What The Revolution Needs To Become

[AK47]

So, you want a revolution? I'm all for it. One problem, what are you going to do when it is over (and you have won). Who is going to run the industry, government, food distribution, etc, etc. It will take learned and competent people to make a system work. Revolutions usually fall on their faces when they do not offer an alternative. The best of intentions will not feed the hungry. In this system we call capitalism we the proletariat need to learn how to work the mechanisms of industry and bureaucracy so that they will serve the people. Do not think of capitalism or communism, just how best to allow the resources of our respective nations to serve its people.




I have seen it over and over again. The upper levels of a company make the polices, and the front line worker does what needs to be done and makes the paperwork look good. This is in our potential. The worker needs to make policy that fits his reality, not some CEO in his Ivory tower. The only obstacle is the proletariat must be trained and compliant. It will take more than taking up arms against an Imperial exploitive system. It will take a highly educated and competent working class. Learn how to do something. Make it look like all the other people are just like you, looking for a career. Just keep the eyes on the prize.


The revolution must exist on all levels. Infiltration of industry at all levels needs to be a major tool of liberation.

[lawnmowergoWHUMMM]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 05:34 PM
In this system we call capitalism we the proletariat need to learn how to work the mechanisms of industry and bureaucracy so that they will serve the people. Do not think of capitalism or communism, just how best to allow the resources of our respective nations to serve its people.
I agree that an alternative needs to be figured out. However, you talked about making bureaucracy serve the people. It's my solemn belief that it never will. Bueaucracy is an excluding mechanism which makes decisions in place of the people, and then has police enforce them, like it or lump it.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

So, you want a revolution? I'm all for it. One problem, what are you going to do when it is over (and you have won

Just curious, what are you doing to prepare or fuel a revolution? What should we do to prepare or encourage a revolution?

The revolution didn’t happen; there will be many things to sort out after a revolution. Most of those things we can’t even speak of without a revolution actually happening.

So instead of ‘what if’s’ why not talk about right now? Isn't that what the title of this thread points to?


--Paz

[Forward Union]

who is going to run the industry, government, food distribution, etc, etc.

Im an anarchist, I think everything should be run on a system of direct democracy and federalism.


The only obstacle is the proletariat must be trained and compliant.

Why so they can fulfil your dreams of power? I hate this authoritarian bullshit that treats the working people like fucking idiots, normally esposed by the middle class "radicals" it has to be said. and quite frankly, I am bloody offended and sick to death of this 'superiority' attitude some people have over working people.

And to be honest these questions are a couple of hundred years old, every ideology has a very clear and developed idea of what will happen in post-revolutionary society, have you ever read about any of them? Your almost assuming we have no pre-concieved idea what to do beyong getting lots of guns.

sorry I got a bit agressive but this winds me up :blush:

[Delta]

I agree, I think the last thing that workers need for a revolution to succeed would be to be "compliant".

[More Fire for the People]

Revolutions begin with organic political work — working within unions, social movements, etc. The forms of organization that will arise according to their situation but we do have inclinations from the past what amounts to effective and democratic proletarian organization.

[Resist]

after is is over? there is no end to a revolution.. once is begins there will always be people that will try to oppress us... we must always fight against them and we must always continue to renew our ideas or else it would end up like amerika and there would only be one revolution and then thats it... no way.. its a never ending cycle of social revolutions

[Mr R Benitez]

5% of Americans are the richest people in the world, the other 95% are perceved by those, as having 12 toes and are still throwing stones at the moon.
Americans are force fed shit through TV, media and advertising, its almost like they live there life in a dream like state, following the orders and believing the lies that are fed to them.
Education first, wake the people up to the truth that lies behind the lies. then MAYBE the revolution will follow.
Teach people the real history of the good old US of A. The years of funding governments that supressed the people, foreign intervention of arms that lead to massacure's, invading countrys that pose no threat to the US because of lands resorces. the selling of of land they stole to the old school club, the bombing of innocent people. trhe list is endless
Open your eyes and look around America it there right in front of you, the fact that your either Mega rich or poor. Has you government rebuilt New Orleans yet? No! Why? because its only the poor people that live there!
The American dream....to be rich, to shit on everyone on the way to the top, but they will never get to the top, its always another dollar way.
A US revolution? Maybe when the people wake up.

[AK47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 12:40 AM
I agree that an alternative needs to be figured out. However, you talked about making bureaucracy serve the people. It's my solemn belief that it never will. Bueaucracy is an excluding mechanism which makes decisions in place of the people, and then has police enforce them, like it or lump it.
It is true that under this current system the term Bureaucracy has taken on that meaning. It does not have to however. It is just a word. There will have to be some kind of structure that supports the new government. there will have to be people who work the mechanisms. That is bureaucracy. Not a bureaucracy that serves corporate interest, or the haves and haves more, but one that is kept in line by democratic principles and a real system of checks and balances. The thing I was trying to get across is the people who replace this system need to be well educated and twice as competent just to be seen as good enough in the eyes of the average person. I fear otherwise the revolution will fall on its face like so many others.

[lawnmowergoWHUMMM]

No, really. I think all bureacracy is oppressive, just by what it is. I don't care if it's Republican, Democrat, fascist, Bolshevik or even "anarchist" bureacracy. In bureacracy I also include the bureacracy within businesses and corporations - these would be privately-owned bureaucracies.

A bureacracy is something which has a top, threatens its lower members into following rules and routines, makes decisions for other people, and enforces those decisions.

You said that "the people who replace this sytem" are going to have to be competent or whatever. That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're just going to replace one set of masters with another if you're taking the view that all we need to do is get new people in charge. The problem isn't with who is in charge - it's that someone is in charge. The most revolutionary people will turn into power-crazed wretches when in power.

However, there is a difference between taking power and leading by example and inspiring your comrades, which might require some exceptional people.

To Additives Free, I much appreciate your rant against viewing workers as objects to be manipulated (even for their own good...???). I'm afraid this attitude is spread not just through the middle class but also the lowest rungs of society as well. It's this self-degrading morality which causes convicts of theft and drug sales to believe that they deserve incarceration as they sit in prison, and this self-degrading morality which causes workers to accept their masters as necessary. It's even self-degrading for most "middle-classers," who are, though in a guilded form of it, essentially working class.

[AK47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 02:23 PM
No, really. I think all bureacracy is oppressive, just by what it is. I don't care if it's Republican, Democrat, fascist, Bolshevik or even "anarchist" bureacracy. In bureacracy I also include the bureacracy within businesses and corporations - these would be privately-owned bureaucracies.


Well if you are just going to make up your own definitions there is nothing I can do about that. However, with out the people who keep the infrastructure of a given society doing their job that society will collapse. You have to understand it is true the concepts given to western bureaucracy are of oppression and exploitation. The concept of people working in a societal infrastructure to ensure services and commodities are available to the public is one that needs to exist, what ever you want to call it. It is quite understandable to be weary of the current system of bureaucracy under corporate rule for corporate power. The goals have not changed since before the Caesars of Rome simply wanted to expand the powers of the empire.

It is important to not throw the babies out with the bath water, as it were. Simply because a tool has been used for the wrong purposes does not mean that tool has no use. I think your distain for bureaucracy while understandable is misplaced. It is just a word. I have no doubt even under a peoples government it will have to be watched. It is just made up of people after all. You know how corrupt and greedy they can be. I do think your feelings on the whole mater are misplaced ,however.

Plus, I really do not think we need exceptional people. The best enemy of perfect is good enough. It is all fine and good to repeat slogans comrade, but some one is going to have to work out the workings of the replacement system. Once this corrupt ersatz of a system is brought down, some system of services will need to replace it. People do not like living with out electricity, water, pluming, trash collection..... These little details will not wait for the new system to arise. They need to be worked out now so that the transition will happen seamless. People need not know any change has happened at first. When they wind up keeping more of their hard earned money and keep more of their compensation for their labor in their pockets they will come around.

[DPCC2002]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 05:34 PM
Who is going to run the industry, government, food distribution, etc, etc.




(True) Democratically officials. This is the only way to give a fair chance of survival. The people must decide.

[Enragé]

Who is going to run the industry, government, food distribution, etc, etc

The people (all of 'em) through councils


It will take learned and competent people to make a system work

who are included in the councils
ever heard of learning from/listening to someone who might just have an idea of how to do shit?

[Connolly]

Revolution occurs when the workers see direction as a class - that being class consciousness.

This direction also suggests seeing the exact actions needed to transform society.

Since the material conditions have not come into existance yet for class consciousness - we actually dont know what exact steps to take in a revolution.

Any concept of revolution is vague, not knowing or being able to predict it in any detail.

[hoopla]

Ach, I want to hear from some hardcore "Leninsits", not this flowery anarchist do-gooding.

Basically, do you walk a fine line, or are you all clear authoritarian nutcases. Hmmm?

[Eleutherios]

Yeah, those pesky anarchists and their good deeds! Damn them all to hell!