Should the UK launch a War on the IRA!

[RAM]

Yes. They are terroists and as they way that the world is going is to declare war on terroists then yes! Do it! Lock them up and kill the ring leaders!!!

[sc4r]

Every Freedom fighter is called a terrorist by the people denying them freedom.

The IRa's original goals were to end british oppression in Ireland then Protestand / Orange oppresion in NI.

Now they have , its true, got themseleves hung up on a rather more ephemeral goal (Ireland), but at heart it is still the same cause. And of course there is now very little IRA activism as such (and there never was as much as people got led to believe - I still remmber hearing a BBC report which went roughly like this :

In Ireland IRA terrorists commited another attrocity with a bomb placed in a city centre pub....and further on in the same program.....Irish terrorists were responsible for an attack on a pub just outside Belfast which left 6 dead......Guess who the 'Irish terrorists' were ? One can lie without using false words m8.

Whats a terrorist ? Someboy who attacks the system that denies hin his goals with violabnce ? thats every non democratic revolutionary.

Neither the IRA not Palestinians have remotely the power to take on the opposing militaries directly so they take on the civilian populatoions WHICH SUPPORT THOSE MILITARIES....the Military does not exist in isolation, it exists only because somebody else pays for it and approves.

This might be a cruel fact and less palatable than the conventional romantic idea, but its a fact that were it not for IRA aggression Catholics in Ireland would still be treated like Cack. Do you think honestly that if palestinianad were to somehow unilaterally declare perfect peace and hand in their weapons that Israel would honestly dismantle settlements ? Like Buggry they would.

[GCusack]

The IRA have become terrorists they r no-longer freedom fighters! (Hard as it is to say)! The British would also be hypocritical to leave the loyalist alone, they are British citizens too! The British should stay away!!
the Peace talks r going well so far!!
You sound like your from America? The US funded the IRA for a long time!!

[Dirty Commie]

I am a fan of the IRA, Ireland deservesd complete independence from Britain, after nearly a millenium of oppresion from the brits it's time they left Ireland alone.

You think after so long they would realize that they aren't wanted.

[peaccenicked]

Let us start when we condemn terrorism with State terrorism. The long list of Irish murdered by the British State. Remember Bloody Sunday.

[GCusack]

I am Irish and wat i want most in life, except to marry my girlfriend, is for a united Ireland and for the Saxons to leave! But I do believe that the IRA have lost their cause! But if they were to kill the ring-leaders of this revolutionary group, as our 'friend' suggests, then they will help them find that cause again! And they will create Martyrs out of these men and women just like they did with Pearse, Clarke and Connolly + many more!! British have too much to loose if they kill any more.....so in once sense I think they should!

[Conghaileach]

from GCusack:
the Peace talks r going well so far!!

That's a joke, right?

[GCusack]

yes it was

[Conghaileach]

The basic fact is that were it not for the British presence in Ireland, there would be no IRA.

The term "terrorist" has been prostituted to suit the needs of the state. They use the term to demonise anyone who would dare stand up against them.

The British government has no right to refer to the IRA as terrorists or to talk to the Irish people about justice.

I am not here to defend the IRA. I believe in the cause of Irish national liberation, and believe that the IRA have made many mistakes, but they are not the evil ones here.

[GCusack]

I agree Ciaran! I agree! The British were jst as bad.... the Paratroopers committed countless atrocities!! If it weren't for the Tudors and Cromwell there wud have been no Famine!! England has done no good for us!!

[sc4r]

Quote: from GCusack on 7:05 pm on May 17, 2003
The IRA have become terrorists they r no-longer freedom fighters! (Hard as it is to say)! The British would also be hypocritical to leave the loyalist alone, they are British citizens too! The British should stay away!!
the Peace talks r going well so far!!
You sound like your from America? The US funded the IRA for a long time!!


Me from America ? ROFL. I must tell this joke on a few other forums (notably mrfixitonline.com).

I'm English of Irish parentage. I have relations both sides of the border and in both religions. I do not have any connection to anything Orange mind.

You did not really answer the core question 'what is a terrorist ?' and I note that for someone claiming to come from Ireland you seen to make remarkably little acknowlegement of the extent of loyalist terrorism. Are u by any chance of the anti papist persuasion ?

(Edited by sc4r at 9:48 pm on May 17, 2003)

[GCusack]

Im trying to argue both sides here! I am Catholic, the loyalists actually started the war on the IRA in the late 50's but the IRA were more organised and so became more infamous!! I am pro Republican but both sides have lost their coarse! I hate the Loyalists and I wud be so unbelievably happy if Britain withdrew!
I tottally disagree with the thread and I asked RAM if he was American not u!!
I want a united IRELAND!!! Dont get me wrong!

[sc4r]

my apologies. I am used to threaded view forums where a reply nearly always relates specifically to the one it follows.

So I always assume in this forum that a response not related to the preceding post will include a quote of some sort.



(Edited by sc4r at 1:38 am on May 18, 2003)

[CubanFox]

Didn't many Irishmen join the French army during the Napoleonic Wars just to piss the Brits off?

[RAM]

I am not from America

[BRIN]

Don't forget the if you stop the IRA you will be damaging the FARC rebels(and possebly destroing them)
because the IRA trains and supply them with explosives

[IHP]

Dirty Commie, seriously where do you get off? "im a fan of the IRA whats that shit.

Anyone that supports either side to an absolute truth is either ignorant or stupid. Both spill blood, both terrorise. For Petes sake, get a bloody clue. The sad thing is, morons like Dirty Commie don't actually know whats going on over there and support the 'underdog' Tell me Dirty Commie, how many years have you spent in Ulster? Hmm?

CiaranB I agree with you to a point. They aren't the evil ones, but I have seen 'terrorism' fropm both. And 'fighting the good fight' doesn't save lives either.

What saddens me the most, is the passion is passed down from generation to generation, so that there never will be any peace...

--IHP

[Conghaileach]

from CubanFox:
Didn't many Irishmen join the French army during the Napoleonic Wars just to piss the Brits off?

Possibly. I know that there was a troop of Irishmen who fought with the Boers against the Brits in their war from 1899-1902.

[Conghaileach]

from GCusack:
I am pro Republican but both sides have lost their coarse!

I presume you mean the IRA have lost their course, which I agree with.

Republicanism in itself has nothing to offer. The 26-county state, as it exists, extended into the other 6 would be no better for workers than the British state is. Only socialist republicanism has anything to offer the workers of Ireland.

(Edited by CiaranB at 11:31 am on May 18, 2003)

[Conghaileach]

from i hate pinochet:
CiaranB I agree with you to a point. They aren't the evil ones, but I have seen 'terrorism' fropm both. And 'fighting the good fight' doesn't save lives either.

I agree with you. Right now though the IRA is on ceasefire, as there's very little chance that it'll be broken at time soon.

The IRA was never a revolutionary army. It went from a group of armed people who were trying to defend Catholic homes from loyalist pogroms, to this army that went down the road of believing a bombing campaign would win Irish freedom. It's only a matter of time before they're finally dissolved, which will never happen officially.


What saddens me the most, is the passion is passed down from generation to generation, so that there never will be any peace...

I've seen it on both sides. The GFA has seen sectarianism on the increase, communities being separted further, and with no end in sight.

It'll be fun trying to get socialism to flourish in this environment. The Northern Ireland state was created to be a sectarian state, and every attempt to unite the workers of different religions has always been brought down when the rulers played the sectarian card.

[Conghaileach]

Republicans and the Protestant Working Class (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=821)

I posted this thread in Theory a few days ago.

[marcus de angry comy]

NO THEY SHOULD NOT!!!!!

I am Irish. I do not support there terrorism but belive in there cause. The British gave birth to the IRA because of there relentless greed. The only reson they want NI is because there former glory has all th qickly been striped from them and they hold tigh to whats left, with out consideration of who they hurt.

WE LIVE LONG AND PROUD AND WILL NEVER STOP UNTILL THEY GIVE US BACK WHAT WAS OURS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

YOUR HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF OPRESSION ON US HAS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE FORGOTEN

[GCusack]

scr4, no worries. I agree with u, I should have put in a quote!
There should be 32 counties not 26, however, when Belfast and Derry are handed over then we will have to sort out the problem of the drugs that has occured their. Both sides use drug trafficing to fund their opporations. Wen the British see they must hand over the six counties that will not be the end to our problems, more the start of the end and the start of new problems.
We as a people will never forget the tyranny that the British imposed on us.... and Cromwell will never be forgiven! Its the British fault that somany good Irishmen and women died during the famine or were forced to flee and that will not be forgiven by man only God will forgive them!
I am a republican and I do want the 32 counties to united as they were wen the land mass was formed but I do not think our problems will ever end they will just get better!
It is the same in Palestine, their problems will not end wen their land is returned. We as people of the world must work to establish peace in these areas and once we are returned our 6 counties we can really concentrate on peace but I dont think peace will arrive in our sacred land until then!

[chamo]

I don't think it is possible to start a "war" on the Irish Republican Army. It would be near impossible to fight, the British Army couldn't just stride into the Free State and start shooting and arresting IRA members. Anyway, the government know where most top Republicans live; most don't live in hideouts or caves, they live normally in homes. If the Government wanted them detatined they could just go ahead and arrest them. The "problem" is there is very little evidence to charge them on except for their membership of the IRA, which not an imprisonable offence. If the Brits wanted to detain them in prison they would have to go about it the way the USA treated Afghan prisoners.

Nearly all terrorist movements have lost their cause. Especially in Northern Ireland. The IRA are run drugs and Dublin is run as a "mafia" set-up by IRA members. The Loyalist groups are just plain gansters; drugs, punishment beatings, couterfeiting. You name it they run it, apart from what they are supposedly about!

The same is for the Palestinian terror groups; what is their actual aim? The violence will not stop with a Palestinian Free State. I suspect most of their suicide-bombings are for the point of killing "infidels".

[Sandanista]

There has been a war on the IRA since 1969, however the IRA has called a few cease fires, however a splinter group broke away from the IRA, the Provisional IRA which still continues the violent struggle against English, not british, imperialism.

[Dirty Commie]

[quote]Quote: from i hate pinochet on 5:53 am on May 18, 2003
Dirty Commie, seriously where do you get off? "im a fan of the IRA whats that shit.

For lack of a better word at the time, I used 'fan', I wasn't exactl awake when I posted.

I support Irish unity and support the Irish Repubican Army.

[GCusack]

sandanista- The British government declared a state of emergancy, not a war. It is impossible to declare war as happyguy said. As far as they (Britain) is concerned they dont exist!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Dirty Commie on 7:08 pm on May 17, 2003
I am a fan of the IRA, Ireland deservesd complete independence from Britain, after nearly a millenium of oppresion from the brits it's time they left Ireland alone.

You think after so long they would realize that they aren't wanted.


If the IRA had not been terrorising people and blocking the peace process, then NI would probably be part of the republic by now.

Also no lefist should support the third largest arms dealers in the world. They are a bunch of raquitearing thugs who should be imprisonned like any other petty criminals. Plus i dont look kindly on a group of "freedom fighters" who faught for Hitler, and deal massive shipments of drugs into the UK to fund there continued criminal activitys.

They have pissed on a once noble goal with there underhanded tactics, like indiscriminatly bombing protestant civillians. They have no place in modern socioty, they are on the same level of brutality as Al Quida.

No person in there right mind would support such an organisation. However they are not as bad as the break away groups and the loyalist paramilitarys. They are blatantly in it for making money and operate these criminal activitys on higher scales as the IRA.

Also if the majority of people in N.I wanted to be in the republic then they would voite for Sinn Fein, as it happens they do not represent the majority.

[Dirty Commie]

Quote: from AK47 on 3:07 pm on May 18, 2003

Quote: from Dirty Commie on 7:08 pm on May 17, 2003
I am a fan of the IRA, Ireland deservesd complete independence from Britain, after nearly a millenium of oppresion from the brits it's time they left Ireland alone.

You think after so long they would realize that they aren't wanted.


If the IRA had not been terrorising people and blocking the peace process, then NI would probably be part of the republic by now.

Also no lefist should support the third largest arms dealers in the world. They are a bunch of raquitearing thugs who should be imprisonned like any other petty criminals. Plus i dont look kindly on a group of "freedom fighters" who faught for Hitler, and deal massive shipments of drugs into the UK to fund there continued criminal activitys.

They have pissed on a once noble goal with there underhanded tactics, like indiscriminatly bombing protestant civillians. They have no place in modern socioty, they are on the same level of brutality as Al Quida.

No person in there right mind would support such an organisation. However they are not as bad as the break away groups and the loyalist paramilitarys. They are blatantly in it for making money and operate these criminal activitys on higher scales as the IRA.

Also if the majority of people in N.I wanted to be in the republic then they would voite for Sinn Fein, as it happens they do not represent the majority.

I don't think any informed person would deny that the IRA has done it's own share of wrong doings, but when compared to what the protestants oin the north do, It is nothing. Underhanded tactics? The tactics the IRA use are NO different than those of any other radical nationalist groups.

Al Qaeda is far worse than the IRA, the IRA never killled 3000+ people at once. The terrorist acts agaionst the british are insignificant compared to what has happened to the Irish lately.

Remember the rocks and molotovs thrown at third grade children, because they are catholic, not even adults.

[GCusack]

That event made my mum cry every time the news was on! It was horrible! One of the few times the British protected the Catholics! If the Black and Tans still existed (thank God they dont) then the protection would have been half hearted!
The IRA in Ireland are much like the rebels in any country, Bolivia, Cuba, Any African country, East Asia....etc they r so violent because they were so repressed and beaten up! The British were always the overlords!

[Dirty Commie]

Quote: from GCusack on 4:35 pm on May 18, 2003
That event made my mum cry every time the news was on! It was horrible! One of the few times the British protected the Catholics! If the Black and Tans still existed (thank God they dont) then the protection would have been half hearted!
The IRA in Ireland are much like the rebels in any country, Bolivia, Cuba, Any African country, East Asia....etc they r so violent because they were so repressed and beaten up! The British were always the overlords!

If the b+t's were around, they would have thrown the rocks as well.

[GCusack]

Thats wat I mean. My Great Uncle in-law (wat a mouth full!) was in 'control' of a bunch of them! He probably helped through rocks at some of my direct family! Never got on with him! He had an arguement with my Grandda about whether Derry was Londonderry or Derry! Didnt like him!

[Dirty Commie]

The press ALWAYS says 'Derry/Londonderry' to avoid conflict.

It is so Derry.

[GCusack]

easier to say!

[Dirty Commie]

gcusack, chech your PM

[chamo]

Quote: from GCusack on 9:35 pm on May 18, 2003
That event made my mum cry every time the news was on! It was horrible! One of the few times the British protected the Catholics! If the Black and Tans still existed (thank God they dont) then the protection would have been half hearted!
The IRA in Ireland are much like the rebels in any country, Bolivia, Cuba, Any African country, East Asia....etc they r so violent because they were so repressed and beaten up! The British were always the overlords!


I happen to play hockey on the field right next to that area but in the Protestant half of the Ardoyne. It is a fair bit away from the houses but in the afternoons at 3:00 when the children got out and were being escorted home, surrounded by a police cordon, all that could be heard for 10 minutes were whistles being blown at them and fireworks being thrown. I was there when the area erupted in rioting, both sides had their own stories how it started, and my bus was hijacked by loyalists, driven into a police blockade and set on fire!

[GCusack]

shit man!! Thank you for ur account! That must have scared the shit out of you!! how bad did it affect u?

[chamo]

Not bad at all. It's the little schoolgirls I'm sympathetic for. I was beside the bus, two masked guys came down and got everyone off the bus (they claimed they had a gun, but I know they didn't) and then drove off through a fence and up to the police line. I wasn't in the bus at the time if that's what you were thinking.;)

[GCusack]

Yea when we were in Armagh our car got stopped by a group claiming to have a gun! But i think the majority of the time they dont! Those girls did look terrified!

[chamo]

If you are stopped by someone in [South] Armagh it is almost certainly the IRA.

The girls were absolutley upset at the amount of abuse they were getting, imagine what it is like having to run through a road, lined with police land rovers with riot police protecting you when there are deafening whistles, verbal abuse, rocks and fireworks being thrown as well as a pipe bomb; all when you are 11 years old and younger.

[GCusack]

It was North Armagh but I think they were IRA cos they didnt seem as violent wen they heard our accents! But they were still gave us some abuse, more about being where we were than who we were, but they didnt keep us long, 5 minutes tops?!
Those girls had my prayers when I saw those images!! It was horrific!!

[chamo]

Lucky one that. I get that shit all the time in the street, I can usually back off from it.

[GCusack]

It was very lucky! The beads were ratterling after that (figure of speech)! if it had been the loyalists we probably wouldnt have been so lucky! I Belfast we weren't asked too many questions, one bunch of testosterone filled, boozed up 17 yr olds stopped me and my bro and threatend to beat us up if we didnt sing God Save the Queen!!! Very funny cos they were no taller than 5'6" and my brother and me are 6'0 (my bro is 6'3") and we both play rugby! they thought again once they hit the floor! But we didnt stick around! The chance they had older brothers wasnt something to think too hard about!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Dirty Commie on 8:17 pm on May 18, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 3:07 pm on May 18, 2003

Quote: from Dirty Commie on 7:08 pm on May 17, 2003
I am a fan of the IRA, Ireland deservesd complete independence from Britain, after nearly a millenium of oppresion from the brits it's time they left Ireland alone.

You think after so long they would realize that they aren't wanted.


If the IRA had not been terrorising people and blocking the peace process, then NI would probably be part of the republic by now.

Also no lefist should support the third largest arms dealers in the world. They are a bunch of raquitearing thugs who should be imprisonned like any other petty criminals. Plus i dont look kindly on a group of "freedom fighters" who faught for Hitler, and deal massive shipments of drugs into the UK to fund there continued criminal activitys.

They have pissed on a once noble goal with there underhanded tactics, like indiscriminatly bombing protestant civillians. They have no place in modern socioty, they are on the same level of brutality as Al Quida.

No person in there right mind would support such an organisation. However they are not as bad as the break away groups and the loyalist paramilitarys. They are blatantly in it for making money and operate these criminal activitys on higher scales as the IRA.

Also if the majority of people in N.I wanted to be in the republic then they would voite for Sinn Fein, as it happens they do not represent the majority.

I don't think any informed person would deny that the IRA has done it's own share of wrong doings, but when compared to what the protestants oin the north do, It is nothing. Underhanded tactics? The tactics the IRA use are NO different than those of any other radical nationalist groups.

Al Qaeda is far worse than the IRA, the IRA never killled 3000+ people at once. The terrorist acts agaionst the british are insignificant compared to what has happened to the Irish lately.

Remember the rocks and molotovs thrown at third grade children, because they are catholic, not even adults.


The tactics the IRA use are NO different than those of any other radical nationalist groups.

You dont read other people posts do you. If you look at my post you can clearly see: -

However they are not as bad as the break away groups and the loyalist paramilitarys. They are blatantly in it for making money and operate these criminal activitys on higher scales as the IRA.

I think that answers that part of your post.

Al Qaeda is far worse than the IRA, the IRA never killled 3000+ people at once. The terrorist acts agaionst the british are insignificant compared to what has happened to the Irish lately.

Given the oppertunity im sure the IRA would have done worse. Also its not like the IRA have not tried to kill loads of people in one go, look at the Manchester Bomb Attack in the '90's , that apparently had the capacity to kill 100's of people.

[GCusack]

AK has a point, however i dont think that the IRA or the loyalist would have killed so many at once! Omar bombing was the worst that either side has and will ever do! And Al Quida is far worse than either side! Their hatred for america is worse than the sectarian violence! Odd because the sectarian violence is in close quarters but there u go!

[peaccenicked]

Joe MacDonnell


O' my name is Joe McDonnell
From Belfast town I came
That city I will never see again
For in the town of Belfast I spent many happy days
I love that town in oh so many ways.
For it's there I spent my childhood
and found for me a wife
I then set out to make for her a life.
But all my young ambitions met with bitterness
and hate. I soon found myself inside a prison gate.


(((CHORUS)))

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down your guns
When I think of all the deeds that you have done,
You have plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You have terrorized their people
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land.


Though those many months internment in the
Maidstone and the Maze
I thought about my land thought those days
Why my country was divided
Why I was now in jail
Imprisoned without cause or without trial.
And although I love my country
I am not a bitter man
I have seen cruelty and injustice at first hand.
Then one fateful morning I shook bold freedom's hand
For right or wrong I tried to free my land.


(Chorus)


One cold October morning I was trapped in a lions den
I found myself in prison once again
I was committed to the H-Blocks for fourteen years or more
on the blanket ,the conditions they were poor
Then a hunger strike we did commence
for the dignity of man but it seems to me that no one gave a damn
but now I am a saddened man I've watched my comrades die
if only people cared or wondered why.


(Chorus)


May God shine on you Bobby Sands for the courage you have shown
May your glory and your fame be widely known.
And Francis Hughes and Ray McCreesh you died unselfishly
And Patsy O'Hara and next in line is me
And all who lie behind me may your courage be the same
And I pray to God my life is not in vain.

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down your guns
When I think of all the deeds that you have done,
You have plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You have terrorized their people
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land.

Oh but sad and bitter was the year of 1981 For everything I lost and nothing won.



(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:53 pm on May 19, 2003)

[GCusack]

thats a fantastic song! I'm tempted to start up a lil sing song now!
ah heck,

By the lonely prison wall,
I heard a young girl calling,
Michael they have taken you away,
For stole Trevellian's corn
so the young might see the morn,
Now our prison ship lies waiting in the bay.

Low lie the fields of Athenry,
Where once we watched the small free birds fly,
Our love was on the wing,
We had dreams and songs to sings
its so lonely round the fields of Athenry.

By a lonely prison wall,
I heard a young man calling,
Nothing matters Mary when ur free,
'Gainst the famine and the crown,
I rebelled they cut me down
Now you must raise our child with dignity!

[IHP]

Dirty Commie, I'm glad you changed your statement. I didn't think you were as single-minded as that. Although, I still can't agree with supporting the IRA, however I can see how their fight is honorable...to an extent. Keep in mind, although I do come from Belfast originally, I don't support either side in this. It's the worst kind of war.

Ciaran: I'm glad other people have noticed the continuity between generations.

--IHP

[GCusack]

Dirtycommie, excuse my ignorance- can u explain the picture by ur name please?

[Dirty Commie]

Got it from the Bob Marley website
www.bobmarley.com

[Purple]

Terrorists: yeas, maybe! But from whos point of view?

[scott thesocialist]

for the members of the families that they have killed along with UVF UFF. they are nothing more than drug dealing wanna be gansters in my point of view, the cause has been lost. but hey what do i know?

[GCusack]

i hate pinochet- wat does tht pic mean! sorry dirtycommie I read the wrong name!

[chamo]

Well, it's a hammer and sickle inside a star with the letters IHP, for I Hate Pinochet. I think Apocalypse When made the avatar. That's all really.

[Conghaileach]

Getting back to the original point of this thread, there is no need for the British government to launch a war on the IRA. They've already beat the IRA.

Throughout the 80s the Republican movement was torn apart by informers and spies. Their efficiency plummeted, and more and more volunteers were being arrested and murdered.

On top of this you had the British security forces giving loyalists free reign to go out and murder whomever they chose, carrying on from the British/RUC shoot-to-kill policies and direction of loyalists towards certain targets from the beginning of the 70s.

The IRA needed the Good Friday Agreement. They knew there was no other option, except full defeat.

[RAM]

Yeah genraaly but what about the bombs in 2002 in the UK?

[Moskitto]

there were bombs in 2002?

or do you mean real IRA?

I still don't remember any bombs in 2002

[RAM]

2002 or 2001 anyway there were bombs and I forgot that they were buy the real IRA!

I love it how Jerry Adams say thar Sien Fein are not the mouthpiece for the IRA but they calrify IRA statements!

LOL!!

[Conghaileach]

The Real IRA fire a rocket launcher at the MI5 (or was it MI6?) building in London.

The Continuity IRA also placed a bombed somewhere in England. The police exploded it safely.

You should be careful not to confuse the various groups. There's the PIRA and INLA (both on ceasefire) and then there's the CIRA and RIRA (which aren't on ceasefire, but don't have the resources to carry out an armed struggle anyway).

[Gaddafi]

I support the Irish Republican Army, but also the peace process. However I utterly despise the Real IRA with all my heart!!! But havnt the UDA, UVF and Red Hand Defenders gone on killing sprees indiscriminately throughout Catholic neighbourhoods, havnt their admitted tactics been shotting pregnant Catholic women in the streets, bombing Catholic schools, blowing up Catholic owned pubs and murdering civil rights activists and protestant sympathizers, the IRA has killed civilians, but for anyone to compare the tactics used by the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries would be a crime (I am not defending the Real IRA however). The IRA has tried to avoid civilian deaths and has killed far, far, FAR less civilians than the loyalist groups. And now even the British government is being forced to admitt past military support for the UDA (a group which makes the KKK look like little angels), especially during the 1970s and 80s. So if anything, the UK should be condemned as a terrorist state and a war should be launched on the UDA, UVF and RHD. I have relatives in Ulaidh and personally I worry about them every single damn day!

[Conghaileach]

For anyone who'd like to know about the creation of the various IRAs, here's a short piece of each of their creations. There's likely some errors, but it is the basics.


From the creation of the Irish Republican Army in 1916, until 1969, there was one organisation called the IRA. It was composed of many volunteers during the Irish war of independence, but there was a split over the treaty between 'Free Staters' (pro-treaty) and 'Republicans' (anti-treaty). The IRA (Republicans) were in the minority and until 1969 they remained a small group.

In 1969, pogroms by loyalists in Belfast and other parts of the Northern Ireland forced a split in the ranks of the IRA. This was basically along left-right lines, and also about politics vs. militarism.

On one side was the 'Official' IRA, which had a reformist Stalinist leadership and believed in the reformation of the 6-county state. On the other side, was the militarist, mostly non-political Provisional IRA, which believed in the idea of the armed struggle.

The Officials remained active until 1972, when they called a ceasefire. The made the Provisionals the main, official IRA. With Bloody Sunday, their ranks swelled with young men sickened by they way they were being treated by the Brits and the Unionist-controlled state.

In 1974, the INLA [Irish National Liberation Army, probably a link to the various ELNs of Latin America] was formed as another breakaway from the Officials. The leader of this group, Seamus Costello, despised splits and feuds and had fought within the Officials until he was expelled by the leadership undemocratically. Many joined him in the formation of the new army and political party (the Irish Republican Socialist Party), which believed in politics and militarism. Costello was murdered by the Officials, and this stunted the growth of the IRSP as a movement.

In 1986, there were two splits from the Provos. The first was the creation of the League of Communist Republicans. This group only really existed in Long Kesh prison and never had much of an existance, but was created when its founders believed that the Provos had lost any semblance of internal democracy.

This was to lead to the second split, which created the CIRA and its political party, Republican Sinn Fein. This group was formed when the Provos decided to enter Leinster House (the Dáil), which Republicans until then had considered just as illegitimite as Stormont.

The 32 County Sovereign Movement was formed as a think tank within Sinn Fein. In 1997 its membership left when Sinn Fein decided to support the GFA. Some members of the Provos left to form the RIRA.

(Edited by CiaranB at 10:20 pm on May 21, 2003)

[praxis1966]

In light of all of these firsthand accounts about the tyrrany of the British gov't in N. Ireland, I don't know how anyone could call the IRA terrorists. At least not when the alternative is considered.

[IHP]

GCusack, basically what Happyguy said, a hammer and sickle with "ihp" on it as well. But is was ComradeJunichi at his his chat board CYPSK (theres a plug Joon!) that made it for me. Apocalypse When adjusted so it would fit into the requirements at che-lives.

--IHP

[GCusack]

Praxis, i think the reason they have that label is because they are not an official army! Sounds stupid I no but thats y!
The British government has cause hundreds of atrocities but because it was declared a state of emergancy they are neither war crimes or illegal acts!
Its all very hypocritical!!
IHP the pic i can see is the one that says stealing bandwidth causes cancer or something along those lines!

(Edited by GCusack at 9:16 pm on May 22, 2003)