Fun And Games In North Korea

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by BBC News
N Korea tests long-range missile

North Korea has test-fired a number of missiles - one of which was a long-range weapon which failed seconds into flight, US officials have said.

The Taepodong-2 weapon, thought to be capable of reaching the US, failed about 40 seconds after it was launched.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5148648.stm

[Colombia]

Well it looks like NK won't have a front to put up anymore against the capitalists.

[Martin Blank]

It amazes me how the imperialists are crowing about the failure of the Taepodong-2 missile after it left the launchpad. Me thinks it is time to sit the bobbleheads down and have them watch The Right Stuff again -- especially the scene where the failures of NASA are shown over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Miles

[ComradeOm]

They've fired a seventh (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5149512.stm).

While the obvious driver behind the tests is N Korea's foreign policy, I do wonder how much of the motivation of these launches has been domestic.

[Vladislav]

After Iraq, Bush is gonna invade NK.

But what's wrong with launching test missiles?
Doesn't the U.S do it all the time?
And didn't Pakistan test launch a missile not long ago?

[Abakua]

:lol: The missiles are rubbish.. Couldn't hit a barn door from ten paces...

[Kia]

After Iraq, Bush is gonna invade NK.

I doubt it. The war in Iraq is still going on strong and the USA doesnt have the recources nor military power to invade North Korea. At the most they could probably bomb strategic locations in North Korea to put a damper on North Korea's Nuclear and Ballistics development



But what's wrong with launching test missiles?
Doesn't the U.S do it all the time?
And didn't Pakistan test launch a missile not long ago?

The reason that the USA & other western countries have a problem with North Korea launching missiles is that they had a moratorium over testing long ranged missiles with North Korea since 1998. South Korea and Japan are pretty scared of North Korea gaining that ability since it could mean the ability to launch missiles at either country.
The USA does launch missiles all the time but since they are a member of the UN and basically no care about what they do or dont do, they are allowed to test missiles as much as they want. Its extremely hypocritical, but thats no surprise in global politics.
I dont know about Pakistan launching missiles, but the US government did agree to sell missiles that can be launched from both sub and ship to Pakistan recently. So im assuming it is deemed alright in the US's eyes for Pakistan to launch all the test missiles they want. the article about it is :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5038672.stm

I'm going to be optimistic and guess that the reason North Korea is doing this right now is to show the world that they cant be so easily pushed around and to also to turn the 6 party talks in their favor. I'd be extremeley angry if North Korea actually is thinking about launching an armed missile.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 04:19 AM
It amazes me how the imperialists are crowing about the failure of the Taepodong-2 missile after it left the launchpad. Me thinks it is time to sit the bobbleheads down and have them watch The Right Stuff again -- especially the scene where the failures of NASA are shown over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Miles
The US just claimed it "failed" they don't actually know what it was testing. The DPRK may have only wanted it to burn for 40 seconds or whatever (it did launch it just, according to the americans, didn't burn for longer than 42 seconds) out of fear that the americans would interpret it as an attack. They might have just wanted to test the ignition or they could have rigged it to fall short because they weren't confident enough in the system to be sure it wouldn't land on anything if it went to full capacity.


The most obvious reason would be that they wanted it to land in the Sea of Japan rather than over Japan into the pacific, which would have been more provocative.

In any case the Russians claim they launched 10 missiles where the Japanese claim they launched 7 and the Americans only claimed they launched 6, so i'm not sure whose information is most reliable.


While the obvious driver behind the tests is N Korea's foreign policy, I do wonder how much of the motivation of these launches has been domestic.

It has everything to do with the domestic economic policy which is something that people in the west don't totally seem to get.

The DPRK are *already* confident in there deterent capabilities against the United States, because their conventional army, while certaintly incapable of threatening the US itself, is sufficent deter any attack because the estimated casulities and expense would greatly exceed any strategic benefit gained.

Its percisely this confidence that allows them to do stuff like this. They *know* they aren't going to be attacked.

But if they have a nuclear weapon that can hit the US, then they don't have to maintain that large conventional deterent because the nuclear deterent would be sufficent on its own. If they can demonstrate with confidence that they can cause enough casulities in the US, to make invasion of the DPRK too costly, then they don't need to demonstrate that they can cause sufficent casulities through conventional means within the Korean theater.

This would mean that the DPRK could reduce its conventional arms spending to a level that simply matchs the ROK rather than the currently excessive level to disusade the Americans.

Nuclear weapons are in other words, a much more *cost effective* type of deterent, they work just as well for preventing invasion and require fewer resources to maintain, resources that can be reinvested into the domestic civilian economy.

[Dreckt]

Bah, this is just imperialist propaganda. North Korea would never fire any missiles against other workers in other countries! Did anyone of you actually see the missiles? No? Of course they faked the videos and what North Korea said.

Look at the TV: only old "propaganda" videos from the 1980:s and Kim Jong Il waving his hand, making it look like he is commanding his people.

How can you believe in these imperialist lies?!

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 01:20 PM
Bah, this is just imperialist propaganda. North Korea would never fire any missiles against other workers in other countries! Did anyone of you actually see the missiles? No? Of course they faked the videos and what North Korea said.


This is why the communist movement is out of touch in the world. Because of ideals like that.

[Rawthentic]

Its so out of touch, first, because of elitist tendencies like Leninism and the atrocities caused by it history, and second, because the material conditions for a revolutionary consciousness arent there yet.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Colombia+Jul 5 2006, 02:44 PM--> (Colombia @ Jul 5 2006, 02:44 PM) This is why the communist movement is out of touch in the world. Because of ideals like that. [/b]
I suspect its humour. Though you never rightly know.


hastalavictoria
Its so out of touch, first, because of elitist tendencies like Leninism and the atrocities caused by it history, and second, because the material conditions for a revolutionary consciousness arent there yet.
Are you just spewing out buzzwords? Well you got "material conditions", "revolutionary consciousness" and I'll give you "Leninist elitism". Congrats, that's a triple word score!

[TC]

Lol ComradeOm is my new hero for that post.

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 01:20 PM
North Korea would never fire any missiles against other workers in other countries!
Well that makes me feel so much better!! :lol: :lol: :rolleyes:

Do you mean they have the technology to only target Bankers and the Board-of-Directors of major businesses?

Maybe the odd royalty figure as well. :rolleyes:

A bit less 'rosy eyed' sentimentalism for totally non-communist regimes might help people connect with communism.

[bunk]

We really can't be sure of any of this. The missile that supposedly failed could have been purposefully scuppered by North Korea after they saw it worked at the start.

I really don't think they want to antagonise the US too much at this point. To me it seems like a cry for attention, TPTB have been concentrating on other things.

North Korea can be pretty sure that they will not face invasion. It's impossible for any countries except for the US or China. And neither of them are really going to do anything militarily. North Korea sowcasing their hardware at least gives them a bargaining chip for aid etc.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:20 AM
Bah, this is just imperialist propaganda. North Korea would never fire any missiles against other workers in other countries! Did anyone of you actually see the missiles? No? Of course they faked the videos and what North Korea said.

Look at the TV: only old "propaganda" videos from the 1980:s and Kim Jong Il waving his hand, making it look like he is commanding his people.

How can you believe in these imperialist lies?!
How's the atmosphere on Pluto?

Anyway, this is just what the globe needs: another whacko with nuclear arms.

[rouchambeau]

North Korea would never fire any missiles against other workers in other countries!

Maybe, but he isn't afraid to starve children in "his" own country, nor is he afraid to kill anyone who tries to leave NK.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 09:00 PM

North Korea would never fire any missiles against other workers in other countries!

Maybe, but he isn't afraid to starve children in "his" own country, nor is he afraid to kill anyone who tries to leave NK.
Straight copypaste from the CIA? I believe they have a copyright on their bullshit.

[Dreckt]

I suspect its humour. Though you never rightly know.

:D

Yes, you're right. I don't defent the DPRK. But what I wanted to show is that this can be applied to just about everything said and showed of North Korea.

Although, we don't really know if the missiles was made to land in the Sea of Japan or if they really failed. On one hand - they launched seven missiles into the same place - they could have shot one near the west coast of the US to show that they can hit them - but on the other hand I think that the DPRK regime is smart enough not to provocate the US directly, rather indirectly - by targeting their allies (primarily Japan, but South Korea as well).

What still makes me angry is that the media still refer the DPRK as "communist" - not "jucheist" or something like that. Hell, Libya is called Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (or "people's state") - yet they aren't "communists"?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by TragicClown+Jul 5 2006, 07:54 AM--> (TragicClown @ Jul 5 2006, 07:54 AM)The US just claimed it "failed" they don't actually know what it was testing. The DPRK may have only wanted it to burn for 40 seconds or whatever (it did launch it just, according to the americans, didn't burn for longer than 42 seconds) out of fear that the americans would interpret it as an attack. They might have just wanted to test the ignition or they could have rigged it to fall short because they weren't confident enough in the system to be sure it wouldn't land on anything if it went to full capacity.

The most obvious reason would be that they wanted it to land in the Sea of Japan rather than over Japan into the pacific, which would have been more provocative.[/b]

I was thinking about this earlier today and you might be right. If the Taepodong-2 had went much further, it would have entered Japanese airspace. Tokyo may have sat by when the North Koreans launched Tpd-1s over their country a few years ago, but not this time. They knew it was coming and were preparing for it. It does seem that Pyongyang did not wish to tempt fate by keeping it in the air.

The only thing that leaves me with doubt about this scenario, though, is that the KCNA television and radio broadcasts did not mention the launches at all. You would think that, if the Tpd-2 launch was a success, they would have shouted it from the proverbial rooftops, like they did with the Tpd-1 tests before. Then again, they may be waiting for the entire test regimen to be complete before saying something.


[email protected] 5 2006, 07:54 AM
In any case the Russians claim they launched 10 missiles where the Japanese claim they launched 7 and the Americans only claimed they launched 6, so i'm not sure whose information is most reliable.

According to reports, they have three more missiles ready to test, making the total number 10. The U.S. is now saying that they initially launched seven. Perhaps the Russians initially thought all 10 had been launched?

Miles

[TC]

The only thing that leaves me with doubt about this scenario, though, is that the KCNA television and radio broadcasts did not mention the launches at all.

Why do you say that? The western media has been quoting KCNA.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/...e.us/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/06/korea.missile.us/index.html)

http://www.eitb24.com/portal/eitb24/notici...ional&idioma=en (http://www.eitb24.com/portal/eitb24/noticia/en/international-news/self-defence-north-korea-says-it-will-launch-more-missiles?itemId=D42009&cl=%2Feitb24%2Finternacional&idioma=en)

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....&archived=False (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-07-03T095136Z_01_SEO184944_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH-DETERRENT.xml&archived=False)


As usual however, they quote KNCA reporters as if they had some sort of official status as "North Korea says: blah blah blah" instead of "KNCA says blah blah blah." Which would basically be like quoting a Fox news reporter as an official US spokesperson.

Of course they do this because people at KNCA tend to say much more outrageous things than people in the DPRK government.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by TragicClown+Jul 6 2006, 04:35 AM--> (TragicClown @ Jul 6 2006, 04:35 AM)Why do you say that? The western media has been quoting KCNA.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/...e.us/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/06/korea.missile.us/index.html)

http://www.eitb24.com/portal/eitb24/notici...ional&idioma=en (http://www.eitb24.com/portal/eitb24/noticia/en/international-news/self-defence-north-korea-says-it-will-launch-more-missiles?itemId=D42009&cl=%2Feitb24%2Finternacional&idioma=en)

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....&archived=False (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-07-03T095136Z_01_SEO184944_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH-DETERRENT.xml&archived=False)[/b]

The first two articles are recent, and I hadn't seen them. The last report I had seen was saying that no statement had been issued by Pyongyang. (The third article is a little dated.) Thanks for posting them. That clears up that question.


[email protected] 6 2006, 04:35 AM
As usual however, they quote KNCA reporters as if they had some sort of official status as "North Korea says: blah blah blah" instead of "KNCA says blah blah blah." Which would basically be like quoting a Fox news reporter as an official US spokesperson.

Ummm.... Maybe this is not the time to mention that Bush's new Press Secretary, Tony Snow, worked at Fox News Channel until he took the job at the White House. ;)

Miles

[TC]

lol thats true i forgot about that.

But i mean, quoting fox news or cnn instead of quoting a former fox news reporter who became a government spokesperson.

Like, if you compare the types of things that the DPRK foriegn ministry says to the type of things that the KNCA reporters say its very different in tone and tabloidesquness...if thats a word...which its not...

[Kia]

QUOTE (TragicClown @ Jul 5 2006, 07:54 AM)
The US just claimed it "failed" they don't actually know what it was testing. The DPRK may have only wanted it to burn for 40 seconds or whatever (it did launch it just, according to the americans, didn't burn for longer than 42 seconds) out of fear that the americans would interpret it as an attack. They might have just wanted to test the ignition or they could have rigged it to fall short because they weren't confident enough in the system to be sure it wouldn't land on anything if it went to full capacity.

The most obvious reason would be that they wanted it to land in the Sea of Japan rather than over Japan into the pacific, which would have been more provocative.


I was thinking about this earlier today and you might be right. If the Taepodong-2 had went much further, it would have entered Japanese airspace. Tokyo may have sat by when the North Koreans launched Tpd-1s over their country a few years ago, but not this time. They knew it was coming and were preparing for it. It does seem that Pyongyang did not wish to tempt fate by keeping it in the air.


I think this is highly unlikely. North Korea wouldnt launch a rocket just to test if the ignition worked, North Korea would gain a much stronger hand if the missile had traveled further. The further the missile goes the more the western countries would be afraid since that would mean North Korea might actually have a reasonable strike ability on Japan, Korea, and maybe (if it had worked perfectly) the USA. If North Koreas test wasnt for military purposes but rather to gain a upperhand in 6 party talks and the current arguement over necleur technology, they would still gain more of an upperhand by launching the missile(s) as far as possible.
The only benefit North Korea may get from testing missiles and purposely failing with them is to create a false idea that North Korea is incompitent at launching missiles and thus lul the world into a sense of false security...which didnt work....

[Ferg]

Originally posted by TragicClown+Jul 5 2006, 12:54 PM--> (TragicClown @ Jul 5 2006, 12:54 PM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 04:19 AM
It amazes me how the imperialists are crowing about the failure of the Taepodong-2 missile after it left the launchpad. Me thinks it is time to sit the bobbleheads down and have them watch The Right Stuff again -- especially the scene where the failures of NASA are shown over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Miles
The US just claimed it "failed" they don't actually know what it was testing. The DPRK may have only wanted it to burn for 40 seconds or whatever (it did launch it just, according to the americans, didn't burn for longer than 42 seconds) out of fear that the americans would interpret it as an attack. They might have just wanted to test the ignition or they could have rigged it to fall short because they weren't confident enough in the system to be sure it wouldn't land on anything if it went to full capacity.


The most obvious reason would be that they wanted it to land in the Sea of Japan rather than over Japan into the pacific, which would have been more provocative.

In any case the Russians claim they launched 10 missiles where the Japanese claim they launched 7 and the Americans only claimed they launched 6, so i'm not sure whose information is most reliable.


While the obvious driver behind the tests is N Korea's foreign policy, I do wonder how much of the motivation of these launches has been domestic.

It has everything to do with the domestic economic policy which is something that people in the west don't totally seem to get.

The DPRK are *already* confident in there deterent capabilities against the United States, because their conventional army, while certaintly incapable of threatening the US itself, is sufficent deter any attack because the estimated casulities and expense would greatly exceed any strategic benefit gained.

Its percisely this confidence that allows them to do stuff like this. They *know* they aren't going to be attacked.

But if they have a nuclear weapon that can hit the US, then they don't have to maintain that large conventional deterent because the nuclear deterent would be sufficent on its own. If they can demonstrate with confidence that they can cause enough casulities in the US, to make invasion of the DPRK too costly, then they don't need to demonstrate that they can cause sufficent casulities through conventional means within the Korean theater.

This would mean that the DPRK could reduce its conventional arms spending to a level that simply matchs the ROK rather than the currently excessive level to disusade the Americans.

Nuclear weapons are in other words, a much more *cost effective* type of deterent, they work just as well for preventing invasion and require fewer resources to maintain, resources that can be reinvested into the domestic civilian economy. [/b]
No, it was a failure. Why would you waste money, time and energy to burn a missle for only a few seconds?

[Marukusu]

Why would you waste money, time and energy to burn a missle for only a few seconds?

...because the missiles will be used in the soon-to-come reunification of Korea.

Duuuuuuuh!

[Ricardo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 11:30 AM

The USA does launch missiles all the time but since they are a member of the UN and basically no care about what they do or dont do, they are allowed to test missiles as much as they want. Its extremely hypocritical, but thats no surprise in global politics.

Do you have any proof of that or an article or something? I have to prove that America tests missiles to my dad.

[Kia]

I havnt got the time to find specific articles.

But this is the website for the USA's Pacific Missile test Center.

http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/s1/Home.htm

also
The US Army Redstone Technical Test Center

http://www.rttc.army.mil/

and even

Naval Air Weapons Division:

http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/

[Janus]

I heard that it only flew for 42 seconds. I'm sure that was quite dissappointing for them. But at least they have gained worldwide attention..again, which is one of their reasons for this "routine military exercise".

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 02:50 PM
Its so out of touch, first, because of elitist tendencies like Leninism and the atrocities caused by it history, and second, because the material conditions for a revolutionary consciousness arent there yet.
You think the DPRK is Leninist?! :blink: