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Entrails Konfetti
4th July 2006, 02:53
I don't know if this thread necessarily belong in religion or science. But I'm not intentionally attaching any morality to this issue.

I've heard reports that ghosts exist because all they are are electrical energies that leave a failed body, which linger around. However this hasn't been tested to be true by the scientific method.

What are your thoughts on ghosts?

Rosa Lichtenstein
4th July 2006, 03:12
EL-K:

I thought the only spectre worth bothering with was the one haunting the bourgeoisie?


I've heard reports that ghosts exist because all they are are electrical energies that leave a failed body, which linger around. However this hasn't been tested to be true by the scientific method.

Sounds b*llocks to me....

bloody_capitalist_sham
4th July 2006, 03:44
If they did exist there would be scientists, highly distinguished ones trying to find them.

By this stage in human development, there would be at least some proof of ghosts and it would be spammed all over newspapers for ages.

Entrails Konfetti
4th July 2006, 03:50
Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 4 2006, 12:13 AM
Sounds b*llocks to me....
But aren't you the one who casually argues " Just because it hasn't been proven, doesn't mean it is false" ?

Rosa Lichtenstein
4th July 2006, 04:05
El-K:


But aren't you the one who casually argues " Just because it hasn't been proven, doesn't mean it is false" ?

Not me guv'nor.

[Are you seeing things now?]

Entrails Konfetti
4th July 2006, 06:31
Well I guess what I'm really trying to ask is since the human body doesn't create eletric energy in order to keep it running, what starts the developing foetus to live, and what happens to this electric energy when the body dies?

bezdomni
4th July 2006, 07:21
God eats it.

Ghosts can't exist, as their physics are impossible. Anyway, if they did magically exist, we wouldn't be able to percieve them...since they would have to exist in unproveable higher dimensions and would therefore be unperceivable by three dimensional beings.

Why can they float through walls, but not fall through the surface of the earth?

Dark Exodus
4th July 2006, 18:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:22 AM
God eats it.

Ghosts can't exist, as their physics are impossible. Anyway, if they did magically exist, we wouldn't be able to percieve them...since they would have to exist in unproveable higher dimensions and would therefore be unperceivable by three dimensional beings.

Why can they float through walls, but not fall through the surface of the earth?
The idea is that they are only moving through the wall because when they were alive it wasn't there.

I don't beleive in ghosts.

LSD
4th July 2006, 18:51
Well I guess what I'm really trying to ask is since the human body doesn't create eletric energy in order to keep it running, what starts the developing foetus to live

Conception.

And the human body does not "run" on "energy". "Energy" is just a part of the human homeostatic process and in terms of what "creates" it, I think you need to retake Biologt 101.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can certainly be released.

In animals, energy is primarily released through cellular respiration in midochondrial cells, but also through other processes such as the basic Krebs cycle. And in all of this, there is absolutely no need for a "soul" or metaphysical "energies" to "run" our bodies.

"Life force" is a science fiction trope, it has nothing to do with actual biology.


what happens to this electric energy when the body dies?

It's dispersed into the environment. It certainly doesn't "stay together" in any sort of metaphysical "mirror" of humanity. Once a brain stops functioning, it stops functioning. What happens to the "energy" is irrelevent as it's not "energy" that defines human synaptic functioning, it's neuronic pathways.

The electrochemical energy in the human nervous system is not "spiritual", it's checmial. Neurons transmit information by means of potassium/sodium transfer channels. Now, biochemically speaking, this results in energy movement, but that's energy in the scientific sense, not the science-fiction "magical blue rays" sense.

Entropy increases, remember? "Ghosts" are a fundamental impossiblity.

afrikaNOW
4th July 2006, 19:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:22 AM


Why can they float through walls, but not fall through the surface of the earth?
And you know they cant do that becausee???'

Anyway, i believe in Ghosts, paranormal, supernatural. I've seen some freaky shit that can't be explained by science...nor Marxist theory. :lol:

violencia.Proletariat
4th July 2006, 19:35
Originally posted by afrikaNOW+Jul 4 2006, 12:20 PM--> (afrikaNOW @ Jul 4 2006, 12:20 PM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 04:22 AM


Why can they float through walls, but not fall through the surface of the earth?
And you know they cant do that becausee???'

Anyway, i believe in Ghosts, paranormal, supernatural. I've seen some freaky shit that can't be explained by science...nor Marxist theory. :lol: [/b]
What "freaky shit." How can you say the shit you saw can't be explained by science? Are you a scientist? Do you have a good background in the scientists? Or are you daft and make up excuses for things you don't understand.

RebelOutcast
4th July 2006, 19:53
Just a thought, and I'm not judging either way, but what makes this more or less believable than string theory or quantum physics or any of a whole host of subjects.
Point in case: I've never seen a neutrino, or an electron, or a proton, or any of the other particles, but I believe they exist.

RebelOutcast
4th July 2006, 20:15
Also, No one ever has observed a higgs boson, but many reputable physicists believe they exist and will be found with the large hadron collider at CERN in Switzerland

LSD
4th July 2006, 20:28
Anyway, i believe in Ghosts, paranormal, supernatural. I've seen some freaky shit that can't be explained by science

No you haven't. You've seen some things that you can't explain, but that's a long way awy from them being "unexplainable".

If there was such a thing as the "paranormal", we would have some evidence of it. After centuries of searching, if "ghosts" or "spirits" or "afterlife" had any material basis, someone would have discovered them.

The fact that no one has is a substantial indication that they are indeed entirely mythic. Not to mention that, again, the "reality" of the "supernatural" would contradict everything we presently know about the universe.

It's not just a matter of their not being evidence, it's also a matter of a fundamental contradiction between "ghosts" and estalbished biochemistry. Again, humen "energy" is not a "life force" that can be "transmitted" or "spiritualized". It's merely biochemical electricity, not unlike the electricity in your walls.

Tell me, does your old toaster have a "ghost"? Why not? Doesn't it's "energy" have to "go someplace" too? :lol:


Just a thought, and I'm not judging either way, but what makes this more or less believable than string theory or quantum physics or any of a whole host of subjects.

Those things can be explained logically and rationaly.

The existance of "ghosts" would contravene everything that we know about the universe, physics, and human biology. It would require dumping 500 years of established physics.

Quantum theory developed to explain phenomena as did string theory. "Ghosts", however, are themselves a "phenomenon", and one which has yet to be subsantiated. The theory of quantum physics has made numerous predictions, all of which have come true; the theory of "ghosts" has yet to make one single correct determination. And accordingly, we must reject it.


Point in case: I've never seen a neutrino, or an electron, or a proton, or any of the other particles, but I believe they exist.

You may not have seen these things, but they have been observed. Electrson, protons, etc... can be detected, observed, and interacted with.

No one, however, has ever witnessed a "ghost" under controlled scientitif conditions, nor is there any concievable way that they could given what we know about basic phsycs and biochemistry.

afrikaNOW
4th July 2006, 20:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:29 PM

Anyway, i believe in Ghosts, paranormal, supernatural. I've seen some freaky shit that can't be explained by science

No you haven't. You've seen some things that you can't explain, but that's a long way awy from them being "unexplainable".

If there was such a thing as the "paranormal", we would have some evidence of it. After centuries of searching, if "ghosts" or "spirits" or "afterlife" had any material basis, someone would have discovered them.

The fact that no one has is a substantial indication that they are indeed entirely mythic. Not to mention that, again, the "reality" of the "supernatural" would contradict everything we presently know about the universe.

It's not just a matter of their not being evidence, it's also a matter of a fundamental contradiction between "ghosts" and estalbished biochemistry. Again, humen "energy" is not a "life force" that can be "transmitted" or "spiritualized". It's merely biochemical electricity, not unlike the electricity in your walls.

Tell me, does your old toaster have a "ghost"? Why not? Doesn't it's "energy" have to "go someplace" too? :lol:


Just a thought, and I'm not judging either way, but what makes this more or less believable than string theory or quantum physics or any of a whole host of subjects.

Those things can be explained logically and rationaly.

The existance of "ghosts" would contravene everything that we know about the universe, physics, and human biology. It would require dumping 500 years of established physics.

Quantum theory developed to explain phenomena as did string theory. "Ghosts", however, are themselves a "phenomenon", and one which has yet to be subsantiated. The theory of quantum physics has made numerous predictions, all of which have come true; the theory of "ghosts" has yet to make one single correct determination. And accordingly, we must reject it.


Point in case: I've never seen a neutrino, or an electron, or a proton, or any of the other particles, but I believe they exist.

You may not have seen these things, but they have been observed. Electrson, protons, etc... can be detected, observed, and interacted with.

No one, however, has ever witnessed a "ghost" under controlled scientitif conditions, nor is there any concievable way that they could given what we know about basic phsycs and biochemistry.
And whats wrong with contradictions? Science has been wrong plenty of times.

I don't expect you to beleive in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, or anything else "strange" if you never seen it. It's normal to be apprehensive about those things. I've seen things and i believe, and i'll leave it at that. :redstar2000:

LSD
4th July 2006, 21:40
And whats wrong with contradictions?

The problem isn't "contradictions" in the abstract, it's specifically contradicting the framework of modern physics/checmistry/biology (sciences with significant logical and empircal backing).

The theory of "ghosts" has zero evidence behind it. More than that, it's internally inconsistant. There is simply no possible means by which the processes of the human brain can continue after the brain in question has necrosed

You see, there isn't just a "lack of evidene" for "ghosts", there is substantial evidence against "ghosts". Biochemically speaking, it isn't even a remote possibility.


Science has been wrong plenty of times.

Perhaps, but the scientific method has not.


I don't expect you to beleive in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, or anything else "strange" if you never seen it.

It's not a matter of "seeing" or "not seeing".

I've "seen" all sorts of strange things in my life. Why just the other night I "saw" Julius Caesar marching down my hallway. I'm intelligent and rational enough to know, however, that since Ceasar has been dead for nearly 2000 years and I had just consumed an ungodly amount of dissociative hallucinogens ...he probably wasn't really there.

The same goes for any of your so-called "sightings".

People have been "seeing" all sorts of impossible things forever. The human brain is sometimes just too imaginative for its own good. But unless some credible evidence can be presented that that these "paranormal" phenomenon are more than neuronic misfirings, we are obligated to assume that they do not exist.

Entrails Konfetti
4th July 2006, 23:53
Why is this in religion?

How do ghosts necessarily=religion, there is nothing theological about it.

Entrails Konfetti
5th July 2006, 00:18
Originally posted by clownpenisanarchy+Jul 4 2006, 04:22 AM--> (clownpenisanarchy @ Jul 4 2006, 04:22 AM) Ghosts can't exist, as their physics are impossible. Anyway, if they did magically exist, we wouldn't be able to percieve them...since they would have to exist in unproveable higher dimensions and would therefore be unperceivable by three dimensional beings. [/b]
Alot of the things you have stated are stereotypes about ghosts.
Why would ghosts have to exist in alternate dimensions?


LSD
And the human body does not "run" on "energy". "Energy" is just a part of the human homeostatic process and in terms of what "creates" it, I think you need to retake Biologt 101.

I don't recall learning about that in biology, and I don't recall biology dealing with the field of decomposition of living forms. I was going to take a course when I wanted to be a mortician ( I don't anymore), it was called someting like "necrology" or something.


In animals, energy is primarily released through cellular respiration in midochondrial cells, but also through other processes such as the basic Krebs cycle. And in all of this, there is absolutely no need for a "soul" or metaphysical "energies" to "run" our bodies.

Could you simplify this, I'm not familiar with those terms.


It's dispersed into the environment. It certainly doesn't "stay together" in any sort of metaphysical "mirror" of humanity. Once a brain stops functioning, it stops functioning. What happens to the "energy" is irrelevent as it's not "energy" that defines human synaptic functioning, it's neuronic pathways.

I know that through decomposition the body breaks down as nutrients into the soil
which goes to replenish things living on the soil.


The electrochemical energy in the human nervous system is not "spiritual", it's checmial. Neurons transmit information by means of potassium/sodium transfer channels. Now, biochemically speaking, this results in energy movement, but that's energy in the scientific sense, not the science-fiction "magical blue rays" sense.

So thats it the body just converts energy into the soil?
What about say with an electronic devise, theres a jam in its system hindering it, it still has power within it but the mechanism is just in a funk and needs to be repaired?

ComradeOm
5th July 2006, 00:23
Originally posted by EL [email protected] 4 2006, 08:54 PM
Why is this in religion?

How do ghosts necessarily=religion, there is nothing theological about it.
Superstitious nonsense gets funnelled in here. Unless you were really looking for a serious scientific discussion on the possible existence of ghosts <_<

LSD
5th July 2006, 00:42
Could you simplify this, I&#39;m not familiar with those terms.

Your body creates energy by combining glucose (sugar) and oxygen in a process called "cellular respiration". This results in a chemical called "ATP" which contains a lot of potential energy which is then used "power" all of your body&#39;s "functions".

That&#39;s waaayy oversimplified, but I think you get the idea.


So thats it the body just converts energy into the soil?

No, it doesn&#39;t "convert" anything into anything, it&#39;s dead remember?

Again, energy in a biochemical sense does not mean scifi "life essence" blue-shock electricity, it means biochemical potential energy stored in the form of chemicals. When the body stops producing and consuming those chemicals, they, along with the rest of the body, simply decompose.

So, yeah, in manner of speaking, the "energy" goes into the soil, although some of it goes into the air too.


What about say with an electronic devise, theres a jam in its system hindering it, it still has power within it but the mechanism is just in a funk and needs to be repaired?

I don&#39;t understand the analogy.

Are you saying that a dead human being is like a broken mechanism that can be repaired? If so, I suppose that in a sense you&#39;re correct, although once the human body begins to necrose, it becomes virtually impossible to "repair" it.

Biochemical bonds begin to break down and, especially in the brain, the complex patterns nescessary for consciousness completely degrade.

And, again, I think that you&#39;re looking at biochemical energy as if it were some kind of "life force". It isn&#39;t&#33;

Again, energe in a biochemical sense, merely means chemicals with strong potential energies. Even in the brain, where there is a lot of effective energy transfers going on, energy is moved via sodium/potassium channels and chemical neurotransmitters.

The human body doesn&#39;t "run" on "electricity"&#33;

Finally, if you really must have an inorganic analogy, think about a AA battery. When you throw a battery away, what happens to its energy? ...the same thing that happens ot ours when we die, it reenters the environment.

See? No "ghosts" required&#33;


Why is this in religion?

Any talk of "afterlifes" or "life after death" is clearly relgious in nature. Obviously there is no science for "ghosts"&#33; :rolleyes:

RebelOutcast
5th July 2006, 00:57
the theory of "ghosts" has yet to make one single correct determination. And accordingly, we must reject it.


No one ever has observed a higgs boson, but many reputable physicists believe they exist

By that logic we must reject the idea of the higgs boson aswell.

LSD
5th July 2006, 01:05
By that logic we must reject the idea of the higgs boson aswell.

Until there is evidence for it, yes.

That doesn&#39;t mean that we can&#39;t look for evidence. On the contrary, since it is highly indicated by the standard theory, it makes good scientific sense to investigate. But until it is directly observed, it cannot be said to exist.

"Ghosts", again, not only have no evidence in their favour, but actually contradict all currently understood laws of the universe. So, like the higgs boson, we must assume that they do not exist; but unlike the higgs boson, we have concrete reasons to uphold that assumption. Searching for "ghosts" would by all indications be a complete waste of time.

Entrails Konfetti
5th July 2006, 03:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 09:43 PM
Any talk of "afterlifes" or "life after death" is clearly relgious in nature. Obviously there is no science for "ghosts"&#33; :rolleyes:
I thought this had more to do with parapsychology than theology. And since this branch of psychology is pointing towards a pseudoscience this doesn&#39;t make it theologic. Though Theology in itself is a pseudoscience, its a different area than Parapyschology.

The religion forum should be renamed "Pseudoscience" since it also gets thread on Werewolves and Aliens on it.

I&#39;m not trying to prove anything here LSD, I just thought this would interesting
(Though its wikipedia, and it&#39;s not a valid source its worth a look)
parapsychology (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/parapsychology)



Criticisms of parapsychological research

This section does not cite its references or sources.
You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations.
Anecdotal evidence is inherently unreliable. Anecdotes may have natural, non-anomalous explanations such as random coincidence, fraud, imagination, or auto-suggestion. Therefore any parapsychology research relying purely on anecdotal evidence is worthless.
If an experiment is not controlled to prevent fraud, then the results may not be trusted. This is especially so given the fact that a number of people who claimed to possess psi abilities were later proven to be frauds.
Skeptics claim that parapsychology experiments are poorly designed and have a lack of proper controls, allowing paths of intentional or unintentional information leakage through normal means, etc.
Parapsychology experiments require replication with positive results at more independent laboratories than is currently occurring.
Positive results in psi experiments are so statistically insignificant as to be negligible, i.e. indistinguishable from chance. For example, parapsychology may have a "file drawer" problem where a large percentage of negative results are never published, making positive results appear more significant than they actually are.
Currently inexplicable positive results of apparently sound experiments do not prove the existence of psi phenomena, i.e., normal explanations may yet be found.
Psi phenomena cannot be accepted as explanation of positive results until there is a widely acceptable theory of how they operate.
Parapsychologists may prefer and write selective history. The whole story may be avoided.
Parapsychology spends too much time simply trying to show that certain phenomena occur, and too little time trying to explain them — yet it is explanation that constitutes the heart of scientific enquiry, and wider, scientific acceptance of parapsychological phenomena would come only with the provision of explanation. (See King (2003) cited above.)
People who are considered noteworthy psychics could make a lot of money predicting or even controlling (via PK) the outcomes of boxing matches, football games, roulette wheel spins, individual stock price changes, and so on, but none of them seem to do so. Why not?

Responses from parapsychologists to criticisms

This section does not cite its references or sources.
You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations.
The hard evidence for psi phenomena today is founded on repeatable experiments and not anecdotal evidence.
Anecdotal evidence is considered valid in law and many other fields. The validity of anecdotal evidence does not depend upon the opinion of those listening to it. Memory studies by Elisabeth Loftus show that while memory can be capricious, a majority of people are not affected by many controlled memory manipulations. (See [10] for data.)
There is no such thing as a completely foolproof experiment in any field of science, and it is unreasonable to hold parapsychology to a higher standard of epistemology than the other sciences. [11]Fraud and incompetence in parapsychology is addressed in the same way it is addressed in any other field of science: repeating experiments at multiple independent laboratories; publishing methods and results in order to receive critical feedback and design better protocols, etc.
Experimental protocols have been continually improved over time, sometimes with the direct assistance of noted skeptics. Meta-analyses show that the significance of the positive results have not declined over time, but instead have remained fairly constant.
There are certain phenomena which have been replicated with odds against chance far beyond that required for acceptance in any other science. Meta-analyses show that these cannot be accounted for by any file drawer problem. Dr Dean Radin, in his book Entangled Minds, discusses methods of detecting &#39;file drawer&#39; errors using a funnel plot.
Anomalous phenomena do not disappear for lack of a theory. There have been many instances in the history of science where the observation of an anomalous phenomenon came before an explanatory theory, and some commonly accepted non-psi phenomena (e.g. gravity) today still lack a perfectly satisfactory, undisputed theory. Isaac Newton, when formulating his theory of gravity, stated that he could not hypothesize a mechanism for it - but it still became a foundation of physics.
Theories abound in parapsychology for aspects of psi phenomena, though there is not any one that is comprehensive and widely accepted within parapsychology.
It is not necessary to be a licensed psychiatrist or acquainted with clinical psychology to test the validity of psi. The field of parapsychology overlaps many disciplines, including physics and biology, and often physicists, engineers and others trained in the hard sciences, in conjunction with stage magicians and other experts in deception, are in a better position to design experiments for certain types of phenomena than are psychiatrists or psychologists.
Concluding inexplicability from lack of existing explanation constitutes the well-known fallacy Argument from Ignorance.
The opinion of parapsychologists regarding the overall evaluation of the body of evidence to date is divided. As noted above, some parapsychologists are skeptic and do not believe that there is anything observed so far which cannot ultimately be explained within the existing framework of known science. Probably a majority of parapsychologists believe in the likelihood, or at least the possibility, of actual psi phenomena, though there is a range of attitudes toward the evidence.

Regarding the evidence, the rule of the thumb of the skeptical community is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since skeptics may consider paranormal claims extraordinary, they may think that the evidence needs to be better than what normally would be required. However, this puts the responsibility for investigating seemingly paranormal phenomena squarely on the shoulders of proponents and "internal" skeptics. Not only is research conducted by "external" critics and skeptics useful to the field as a whole, but it also imparts a kind of craft knowledge to critics and skeptics that makes their criticism and counter-hypotheses more productive and more useful. Further many of the counter-hypotheses proposed by skeptics are so unparsimonious as to be extraordinary claims as well, and in that case, those counter-hypothesis, also require extraordinary evidence.

Most people use this approach to evidence in everyday life. For instance, if the news reports that the president of the USA has just arrived in South Korea for a state visit, most people will take this at face value. The news is considered a fairly reliable source of information, and the president visiting a country such as South Korea is not an extraordinary claim. However, if the same news broadcast later mentioned that a 92-year-old man has improved the world record time on the marathon by half an hour, many reasonable people would require more evidence, even despite the assumed reliability of the source, since the claim is extraordinary. This analogy might be flawed, however. In the case of the 92 year old man, we have positive evidence gained from a lifetime of experience and the reassurance of physiologists that this feat is indeed extraordinary (i.e., improbable). When it comes to parapsychology, however, some would argue we have no positive evidence that it is improbable, only our own cultural bias and a subjective sense that Psionic powers are extraordinary. Hence, some would argue, it is not the sort of extraordinary claim which necessarily needs more evidence than a mundane claim.

Some parapsychologists agree with critics that the field has not yet reached the degree of consistent repeatability of experimental results needed for general consensus. John Beloff, in his book Parapsychology: A Concise History, notes the evanescent – some have said the apparently evasive – nature of psychic phenomena over time, and that the range of phenomena observable in a given era seems to be culturally dependent.

For example, in earlier times, psychic research studied physical phenomena demonstrated by spiritualist mediums that, according to the reports passed down to us in the literature, far surpassed anything that any of today&#39;s "psychics" can demonstrate. Skeptics consider this more evidence of the non-existence of psi phenomena. Frequently this particular claim is the result of the proponent community having cut itself off, because of political pressures of conforming to the scientific Zeitgeist, from the community of modern mediums and psychics who operate today. Whether or not the phenomena being exhibited by modern day mediums can provide proof of traditional notions of spirituality or can be attributed to the operation of mundane psychological processes is mostly an open question, due to the lack of research. So it is possible that physical phenomena is being exhibited today, but to what cause the effects may be attributed is an open question, even among parapsychologists.

Many people, especially like John Beloff and Stephen E. Braude, cannot easily dismiss the entirety of all the positive accounts – many of which came from scientists and conjurors of their day. Many began as skeptics - but then changed their minds to become believers and supporters of psychic phenomena when they encountered the inexplicable; and so believe that continued research is justified. Easily recovered critical historical research reveals these individuals were certainly out of their league when it came to the close up deceptions of fraudulent mediums and adept charlatans. (Podmore, 1910 & Price and Dingwall, 1975)

Other parapsychologists, such as Dean Radin and supporters such as statistician Jessica Utts, take the stance that the existence of certain psi phenomena has been reasonably well established in recent times through repeatable experiments that have been replicated dozens to hundreds of times at labs around the world. They refer to meta-analyses of psi experiments that conclude that the odds against chance (null hypothesis) of experimental results far exceeds that commonly required to establish results in other fields, sometime by orders of magnitude.

Skeptics say that this is an old argument (eg. see Rawcliffe 1952, pages 441 & 442). For meta-analyses to be useful, the question of whether or not each of these experiments themselves have been efficiently carried out must be addressed. In the unsophisticated "language of the street" this would be known as "garbage in garbage out". All of the early experiments that were conducted by noted men of science in Italy and Germany with Eusapia Palladino "proved positive".

Skeptics say that &#39;enthusiastic&#39; parapsychologists prefer to dismiss proof-oriented research, intended primarily to verify the existence of psi phenomena and, as in the past, jumped to "process-oriented" research, intended to explore the parameters and characteristics of psi phenomena. The past history of repeated psi failures and short comings has given parapsychology a poor reputation.

Sense-A
7th July 2006, 06:02
ghosts exist. Why else would we have the ghostbusters dummy?

poltergeist is awesome. makes your hair stand up.

What is "Living"? http://freespace.virgin.net/ahcare.qua/lit...atisliving.html (http://freespace.virgin.net/ahcare.qua/literature/science/whatisliving.html)

Delta
7th July 2006, 08:29
There is no evidence or scientific reasoning that would suggest that ghosts exist, so they don&#39;t (at least until proven otherwise). It&#39;s more likely that a flying unicorn (basically a horse with a horn and wings.....totally natural) exists, because this wouldn&#39;t violate laws of physics that we believe to hold true, whereas a ghost, or a spirit, or any sort of god(s), would certainly violate those laws.

spanishinquisition
7th July 2006, 11:02
If ghosts didn&#092;&#39;t exist why do we have a word to describe them? I would have thought we wouldn&#092;&#39;t need a word to describe what didn&#092;&#39;t exist?

Lord Testicles
7th July 2006, 12:21
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 09:03 AM
If ghosts didn&#39;t exist why do we have a word to describe them? I would have thought we wouldn&#39;t need a word to describe what didn&#39;t exist?
Well by your logic I guess Angels, Banshees, The Beast of Bodmin, Bigfoot, Bogeymen, Cyclopes, Demons, Devils, Doppelgänger, Dragons, Drow, Dryad, Dwarfs, Elf, Fairies, Frost Giants, God, Gargoyles, Genies, Ghouls, Giants, Kraken, Gnome, Goblins, Golems, Gremlins, Hellhounds, Hobgoblins, Hydras, Imps, Jormungand, Leprechauns, Leviathans, The Loch Ness monster, Minotaurs, Mummies, Medusa, Nymphs, Dryads, Níðhöggr, Ogres, Pegasus, Phoenix, Pixies, Prometheans, Sea monsters, Spectres, Sprites, Sun Imps, Trolls, Unicorns, Vampires, Valkyries, Werewol, Wraiths, Wyvern, Yetis and Zombies exist?

I could go on but I think I&#39;ve made my point.

STI
7th July 2006, 12:35
Quite impressive. Alphabetized and everything. I wanna take a shot too.


If ghosts didn&#092;&#39;t exist why do we have a word to describe them? I would have thought we wouldn&#092;&#39;t need a word to describe what didn&#092;&#39;t exist?

Well, we obviously have a word for "your apostrophe key", even though that quite evidently does not exist.

And for the coup de grace...


If ghosts didn&#092;&#39;t exist why do we have a word to describe them? I would have thought we wouldn&#092;&#39;t need a word to describe what didn&#092;&#39;t exist?

Just because something has a name doesn&#39;t mean it exists.

Like "your sex life".

Lord Testicles
7th July 2006, 12:39
Originally posted by STI+Jul 7 2006, 10:36 AM--> (STI @ Jul 7 2006, 10:36 AM) Quite impressive. Alphabetized and everything. [/b]
Yeah I found them like that. :P


STI Posted on Jul 7 [email protected] 10:36 AM
Just because something has a name doesn&#39;t mean it exists.

Like "your sex life".

:lol:

Connolly
7th July 2006, 13:19
Alot of you are wondering what happens to the energy contained in the human body once it dies.

The body, while it decomposes, is actually turning chemical energy into heat energy.

Its interesting, because, the amount of chemical energy transformed to heat over the time of decomposition is the same as if the body was set on fire - the only difference is the time it takes to release the energy.

So rotting apples and human bodies etc. are actually burning and transforming chemical energy to heat - and if you set the apple on fire - it will release the same amount of energy as it would have done over months of decomposition.




On topic though - Ghosts are a load of BS.

Alot of the actual reasons as to why people see ghosts can be explained.

Vibrations created by machinary have been known to cause delusion, certain substances when taken can cause delusion - I actually know a person who believed he had God appear to him....................this was after he just had a nervous breakdown due to certain family issues..........

Sightings of ghosts can be explained once the facts can be looked at.

Comrade J
8th July 2006, 02:10
A couple of years ago, in my old house, I left a marker pen on the kitchen worktop, then walked into my living room, and the marker pen hit me in the back and fell to the floor.
Now I was about 7-8 metres away, I am certain I had put it down (I&#39;d been writing a note to my mum, telling her when I&#39;d be home or something like that) and there was no wind or anything like that in the house.
I assure you I&#39;m not making it up, and I was alone in my house, and I haven&#39;t been able to think of any reason for it.
Still, I don&#39;t believe in ghosts or anything like that, and there probably is a logical excuse for it. Perhaps I hallucinated it, though I left it on the floor where it was (I ran from the house) and it was still there when my mum picked it up.
Anyone had any similar experiences that they now realise wasn&#39;t a &#39;ghost&#39; or anything weird like that?

Sense-A
9th July 2006, 04:59
Yeah Skinz that was an impressive list. I couldn&#39;t come up with all that off the top of my head it would take hours of research.

Anyways my friends and I went to an abandoned home one time. The staircase to the second floor had been stripped out as well as much of the house. There were dead cat bones and various things buried under the floor boards. Only the trusses were left. Supposedly some people had burned alive in the house or something. Well we were drunk and feeling invincible. We started taunting and yelling show yourselves and you ghosts are cowards and anything that would rise a reaction. Well all of a sudden there was banging from the second floor, and the air turned freezing cold and breezy and so forth. I know it just sounds like another ghost story to you but these types of things happen to people all the time. There was another time I was walking down railroad tracks in the middle of the night thru a known civil war battlefield. I felt all alone and felt being watched. Then I actually heard the war taking place. I heard battle cries and horses running and shots being fired and soldiers yelling. Not really loud but maybe 100 ft away. There was nothing but wilderness and bare field. Well the only explanation I can think of is I imagined it all but no it all seemed real enough to me. I ran down the tracks as fast as I could &#39;til I reached my car and went the fuck home. maybe I was just high.

Either everybody exagerates these sort of things because ghost stories are fun. or there is some truth behind them.

Oh and I&#39;ve woke up in the middle of the night feeling my feet and legs being pulled down or held down. fucking terrifying I was so scared I couldn&#39;t move I freeze up.

jaycee
9th July 2006, 16:02
my friend says that he had a weird experience a couple of times, once on the bus and once walking down the street. bot times he kind of drifted into this altered state of mind (with no drugs influencing him) where the streets started to appear &#39;old&#39; like he was living in a different time and when he looked at himself he saw himself as wearing 19th century clothes with a pocket watch, etc. Then he suddenly snapped out of it.


i think the sheer number of unexplained occurrences which people go through show that there is something to these ideas, i think there are explainable in a scientific way but still i think give glimpses at truths we have in the past only been able to think of in a religious or idealist way.

afrikaNOW
11th July 2006, 23:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:29 PM

Anyway, i believe in Ghosts, paranormal, supernatural. I&#39;ve seen some freaky shit that can&#39;t be explained by science

No you haven&#39;t. You&#39;ve seen some things that you can&#39;t explain, but that&#39;s a long way awy from them being "unexplainable".

If there was such a thing as the "paranormal", we would have some evidence of it. After centuries of searching, if "ghosts" or "spirits" or "afterlife" had any material basis, someone would have discovered them.

The fact that no one has is a substantial indication that they are indeed entirely mythic. Not to mention that, again, the "reality" of the "supernatural" would contradict everything we presently know about the universe.

It&#39;s not just a matter of their not being evidence, it&#39;s also a matter of a fundamental contradiction between "ghosts" and estalbished biochemistry. Again, humen "energy" is not a "life force" that can be "transmitted" or "spiritualized". It&#39;s merely biochemical electricity, not unlike the electricity in your walls.

Tell me, does your old toaster have a "ghost"? Why not? Doesn&#39;t it&#39;s "energy" have to "go someplace" too? :lol:


Just a thought, and I&#39;m not judging either way, but what makes this more or less believable than string theory or quantum physics or any of a whole host of subjects.

Those things can be explained logically and rationaly.

The existance of "ghosts" would contravene everything that we know about the universe, physics, and human biology. It would require dumping 500 years of established physics.

Quantum theory developed to explain phenomena as did string theory. "Ghosts", however, are themselves a "phenomenon", and one which has yet to be subsantiated. The theory of quantum physics has made numerous predictions, all of which have come true; the theory of "ghosts" has yet to make one single correct determination. And accordingly, we must reject it.


Point in case: I&#39;ve never seen a neutrino, or an electron, or a proton, or any of the other particles, but I believe they exist.

You may not have seen these things, but they have been observed. Electrson, protons, etc... can be detected, observed, and interacted with.

No one, however, has ever witnessed a "ghost" under controlled scientitif conditions, nor is there any concievable way that they could given what we know about basic phsycs and biochemistry.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060711/sc_...fundamentallaws (http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060711/sc_space/scientistsquestionnaturesfundamentallaws)

looks like physics has to be revised and not as stable as you thought.

LSD
12th July 2006, 00:08
oks like physics has to be revised and not as stable as you thought.

I never said that science was "stable", I said that the scientific method was.

Science changes all the time, but it does so scientifically. "Ghosts" (and other "paranormal phenomenon") are the antithesis of science. They are predicated on rumours and annectodes and are sustained by conspiratorial fear.

Epistomally speaking, the investigation of the "paranormal" would be better qualified as psychological disoders rather than "physical" or "scientific" inquiry.

Real science means logical and empirical research; "para"-"science" means making shit up. The two have absolutely nothing in common.

nickdlc
12th July 2006, 04:39
Oh and I&#39;ve woke up in the middle of the night feeling my feet and legs being pulled down or held down. fucking terrifying I was so scared I couldn&#39;t move I freeze up. This also happened to me once except I saw someone comming towards me and then they sat on my chest and i was trying to move and scream but i couldn&#39;t, needless to say I was scared shitless. One day i saw a program on discovery channel and this kind of thing happens in all societes in all periods of history. What happens is that when your in (deep) sleep is that your body is in a state of paralysis (explaining why you can&#39;t move any part of your body) and i forget the details but it&#39;s possible to wake up or have dreams and think it&#39;s real. All cultures have different names for this phenomena but in north america they call these halluciantions/dreams "the entity" and they even made a horror film about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entity

LSD
12th July 2006, 16:39
Oh and I&#39;ve woke up in the middle of the night feeling my feet and legs being pulled down or held down. fucking terrifying I was so scared I couldn&#39;t move I freeze up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_Paralysis

Janus
13th July 2006, 09:55
Well by your logic I guess Angels, Banshees, The Beast of Bodmin, Bigfoot, Bogeymen, Cyclopes, Demons, Devils, Doppelgänger, Dragons, Drow, Dryad, Dwarfs, Elf, Fairies, Frost Giants, God, Gargoyles, Genies, Ghouls, Giants, Kraken, Gnome, Goblins, Golems, Gremlins, Hellhounds, Hobgoblins, Hydras, Imps, Jormungand, Leprechauns, Leviathans, The Loch Ness monster, Minotaurs, Mummies, Medusa, Nymphs, Dryads, Níðhöggr, Ogres, Pegasus, Phoenix, Pixies, Prometheans, Sea monsters, Spectres, Sprites, Sun Imps, Trolls, Unicorns, Vampires, Valkyries, Werewol, Wraiths, Wyvern, Yetis and Zombies exist?
What? They don&#39;t exist? :lol:

STI
14th July 2006, 19:01
I thought this had more to do with parapsychology than theology. And since this branch of psychology is pointing towards a pseudoscience this doesn&#39;t make it theologic.

As a student of psychology, I&#39;m not only offended but disgusted that somebody would qualify "parapsychology" as a branch of psychology.

The Sloth
1st August 2006, 03:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:22 AM
Ghosts can&#39;t exist, as their physics are impossible.
&#39;magical&#39; or &#39;supernatural&#39; existence is impossible.. everything that can exist does in fact exist, and exists according to our physical laws. and, everything that we see that seems to "breach" these laws is not at all a breach.. it simply means that we haven&#39;t figured out the mechanism, how it all fits into our known (or, in some cases, unknown) physical laws (david hume).

and since we&#39;re discussing pretty much un-discussable and presently un-intelligible, probably non-existent, phenomena such as "ghosts," we&#39;re not yet in the business of applying physics to them, as there&#39;s not even a point of reference, of anything to even marginally go by, in this kind of discussion.