Am I The Only Communist Here?

[Marx_was_right!]

This forum is full of people who wish to tear down the capitalist system. Did Marx say tearing down the capitalist system would bring about communism? NO! We need more capitalism to bring on the communism. The best thing you guys can do for the revolution is therefore to stop your demonstrations and close down this website -you're just hurting the cause.

[EusebioScrib]

Well, then your no Marxist.

More capitalism doesn't bring communism. Working class struggle (to which capital expansion is merely the bourgeois reaciton) which leads to working class power leads to communism.

You're taking the side of capital, and forgetting the revolutionary role of the proletariat. It's a dialectical relationship. Both play a role in human development at this historic stage.

[Raj Radical]

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jul 3 2006, 05:37 AM
Did Marx say tearing down the capitalist system would bring about communism?
Yes

[Zero]

Originally posted by "Marx was Right!"
The best thing you guys can do for the revolution is therefore to stop your demonstrations and close down this website -you're just hurting the cause.
Ahh, thanks for the insight. How about after that we all go home and burn all our dissenting books! That will make us get out of the past and into the now! After that we can go out and start learning how to be businessmen! If we can exploit better then those other fuckers, we can eventually fire them! After that we can start our own business!

Think about it comrades! It will be magnificent!

Dude, cut the bullshit. It sucks that your restricted. But really, your advocating Capitalism on a revolutionary Communist board and you don't expect to be restricted?

[Marx_was_right!]

Originally posted by Zero+Jul 3 2006, 06:11 AM--> (Zero @ Jul 3 2006, 06:11 AM)
"Marx was Right!"
The best thing you guys can do for the revolution is therefore to stop your demonstrations and close down this website -you're just hurting the cause.
Ahh, thanks for the insight. How about after that we all go home and burn all our dissenting books! That will make us get out of the past and into the now! After that we can go out and start learning how to be businessmen! If we can exploit better then those other fuckers, we can eventually fire them! After that we can start our own business!

Think about it comrades! It will be magnificent!

Dude, cut the bullshit. It sucks that your restricted. But really, your advocating Capitalism on a revolutionary Communist board and you don't expect to be restricted? [/b]
No need to be cynical. We need advanced capitalism right? We dont even have that so stop the revolution. your just hurting communism.


Well, then your no Marxist.

More capitalism doesn't bring communism. Working class struggle (to which capital expansion is merely the bourgeois reaciton) which leads to working class power leads to communism.
Mao advocated 100 years of capitalism. Then he changed his mind and tried the 'great leap forward' anyways. Big success that was. Only like 20 mil dead. Now its back to capitalism for round 2.

This is like quicksand, the more you struggle the more you sink, but you climbing out of the swamp via capitalism, not communism.


You're taking the side of capital, and forgetting the revolutionary role of the proletariat. It's a dialectical relationship. Both play a role in human development at this historic stage.
Capital must be owned by the bougeoise until technology advances sufficiently for everything to be automatic. Then workers can sieze profits and don't have to do anything.

[EusebioScrib]

Mao advocated 100 years of capitalism. Then he changed his mind and tried the 'great leap forward' anyways. Big success that was. Only like 20 mil dead. Now its back to capitalism for round 2.


Mao has nothing to do with this debate. He's not even a communist.


This is like quicksand, the more you struggle the more you sink, but you climbing out of the swamp via capitalism, not communism.

No. You think capital is the progressive force in society. It's not. Capital is reactive, the working class is progressive and aggressive.


Capital must be owned by the bougeoise until technology advances sufficiently for everything to be automatic. Then workers can sieze profits and don't have to do anything.

Capital only develops because we challenge our exploitation and alienation. If it weren't for our struggles, capital would be rather fine with whatever status quo. Capital realizes that if it goes back it's fucked, but it only goes ahead out of fear.

You have quite the misconception regarding the nature of our current society. I suggest you re-evaluate somethings.

Check out this site which discusses what I'm discussing: http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/383

Your views are vulgar materialism. You give all power the material reality as a force in social change. Big mistake. Human will and material reality are in a dialectical relationship. Being determines conscioussness, but consciousness also determines being.

[razboz]

On completely machievalian level Marx_Was_Right might actaully be right.

Class conciousness is essential for the proletarian revolution to occurr no? If we of the more enlightened kind were all to go ou t and be sucessfull buisnessmen and then ruthlessly exploit our workers in needlessly cruel ways (yes: even more than they do now) then perhaps this would force the proletariat into class conciousness- painfully perhaps but successfully non-the-less. We'd probly all be hanged and our names erased from history but is it not alittle price to pay for freedom?

[EusebioScrib]

Class conciousness is essential for the proletarian revolution to occurr no? If we of the more enlightened kind were all to go ou t and be sucessfull buisnessmen and then ruthlessly exploit our workers in needlessly cruel ways (yes: even more than they do now) then perhaps this would force the proletariat into class conciousness- painfully perhaps but successfully non-the-less. We'd probly all be hanged and our names erased from history but is it not alittle price to pay for freedom?

This is just nonsense...We "teach" the working class their consciousness by treating them like shit. Brilliant idea!

[Marx_was_right!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:25 AM

Class conciousness is essential for the proletarian revolution to occurr no? If we of the more enlightened kind were all to go ou t and be sucessfull buisnessmen and then ruthlessly exploit our workers in needlessly cruel ways (yes: even more than they do now) then perhaps this would force the proletariat into class conciousness- painfully perhaps but successfully non-the-less. We'd probly all be hanged and our names erased from history but is it not alittle price to pay for freedom?

This is just nonsense...We "teach" the working class their consciousness by treating them like shit. Brilliant idea!
And yet, Marxism was founded in response to what?

Yeah, EusebioScrib, I've been reading your link. I've never heard of your kind of Marxism before. Indeed an interesting way of looking at the world.

My view: We need technology for a true utopian marxist society. Manual labor=exploitation, however way you look at it. Let the machines do it!

PROBLEM! If your method of looking at capital is correct, technology will stop advancing under communist because it isn't 'afraid' anymore? If so, we need to go back to capitalism everytime we forget how to use the robots. Oh, and can someone tell me what 'dialectics' is? :blush:

[razboz]

QUOTE (EusebioScrib @ Jul 3 2006, 09:25 AM)

This is just nonsense...We "teach" the working class their consciousness by treating them like shit. Brilliant idea!



Why is it such a bad idea? How else do you propose to teach them? Through speeches? Do you really think you can defeat the appeal of Mtv? DO you really think that a man on the street standing on a box will really manage to drag away people from the Simpsons? Do you seriously think your deeper than the internet?

No. The one langauge everyone understands is action. OF course it could be argued then that revolutionary action such as demontrations, riots and commando actions against symbols of state and corporate opperession would eb enough. However it must be understand theat most people still beleive that the State exists to help serve and protect them. They beleive that all corporations want is to provide a usefull service to them. Your average man or woman does not perceive the threat that capitalism represnents.

Why?

BEcause of the way capitalism and its white-collared preists operate: indirectly. Their exploitation comes in many forms and sizes. Yet in one way they are all identical. this is their lack of any frontal and exteriorised sign of oppression or exploitation.

What i was proposing we did is to expose the monster, take on its mantle and act brutally clumsily ignoring the carefully net of lies and deceit that the many headed monster has created for itself in order to protect its assets.

[EusebioScrib]

Yeah, EusebioScrib, I've been reading your link. I've never heard of your kind of Marxism before. Indeed an interesting way of looking at the world.

You should really look into it. Autonomist Marxism is on the rise right now and it looks like we're far from the climax. Check out these sites also if you're more interested.

http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3843/cleaver.html

He's kinda the theorist in the US today. Wrote some good shit.


My view: We need technology for a true utopian marxist society. Manual labor=exploitation, however way you look at it. Let the machines do it!

I may have found a comrade in you afterall! The historic role of capitalism is to accumulate enough human labor in the means of production so that we no longer have to work in the sense we know it now. Life will be pleasure not work.

You would be very interested in transhumansim. Something a comrade and I are trying to apply to Marxism. We're currently doing a period of intense study and in the end we will write a pamphlet on it, very detailed etc.


PROBLEM! If your method of looking at capital is correct, technology will stop advancing under communist because it isn't 'afraid' anymore? If so, we need to go back to capitalism everytime we forget how to use the robots.

Not exactly. In communism we will have different motives for technological advancement. Superbiology will be our aim. Using technology and science to control our evolution and ultimately stop death and disease. After that I see the struggle will be with physical limitations which nature places on us (gravity, time etc).

Struggle does not end when humanity is united. We will be struggling with genetics, biology, nature, physics, intelligent life (if it exists), other life etc. So there will still be motive for advancement. Communism is merely the beginning of history!


Oh, and can someone tell me what 'dialectics' is? blush.gif

This is a very good intro site.
http://home.igc.org/~venceremos/

Don't listen to what some people say. Dialectics is entirely useful and necessary for explaining certain social relationships etc.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jul 3 2006, 10:33 AM
My view: We need technology for a true utopian marxist society. Manual labor=exploitation, however way you look at it. Let the machines do it!
Technocracy On WikiPedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocratic_movement)

Technocracy FAQ (http://technocracy.org/?p=/FAQ/)

Technocracy (http://www.technocracy.ca/)

[Marx_was_right!]

How's this for a revolutionary philosophy?

We do NOTHING! Technology inevitably advances, once the machines start doing the work for us, nanomachines flying through the air constantly repairing us, capitalism will become less important. People will stop working and start doing the thing that comes after that - helping each other out. A Marxist society will naturally sprout without any compulsion.

And yes, I know what dialectics is now. Thanks for reminding me. I remember reading Kant's conflict of the transcendental ideas. That was extreme dialectics I suppose. Personally though I've always found philosophy to answer questions with more questions. Socrates did somethign similar to dialectics his whole life and at the end of it, claimed he was wiser than everyone else because at least he knew he knew nothing whereas others merely knew nothing. Wittgenstein had the same sort of issues.

YEs, transhumanism seems very interesting. Who wouldn't want to become some sort of immoratl cyborg HAHAH! I'd love it! Perhaps if capitalism can one day provide us with the resources of the universe and make us immortal, we'll say STF U and fly off somewhere to live as Gods.

As for your autonomists Marxism, its very interesting, assuming capital is kept back by the desire to control the labor of others under capitalism. So developing a revolutionary consiousness will develop capitalism further by force, developing the capital, and then removing humans from capital altogether at the time of revolution. Is this right?


Not exactly. In communism we will have different motives for technological advancement. Superbiology will be our aim. Using technology and science to control our evolution and ultimately stop death and disease. After that I see the struggle will be with physical limitations which nature places on us (gravity, time etc).
Excellent, though I see this as developing under capitalism. I think once it all happens, many of us will fling capitalsim aside once it no longer becomes necessary to work for a living. There will be no governemtn, no state as we are Gods and can do as we please.

Struggle does not end when humanity is united. We will be struggling with genetics, biology, nature, physics, intelligent life (if it exists), other life etc. So there will still be motive for advancement. Communism is merely the beginning of history![/QUOTE]
I admire your constructive foresight. I too want to see us take the galaxy, the universe, and the other universes too and develop infinite technologies. But is communism even necessary for the process to occur? Perhaps communism just occurs once we become mechanoid Gods and realise we don't need capitalism any more. This is how I see capitalism dying, not by restriction to be replaced by state capitalism as in the 20th century regimes, but simply because people walk away from it. Then perhaps it won't come back.
I find it very difficult to reconcile Marx's idealism with our crime ridden world, or indeed humans as they are today. I think it lies in the distant future, or not so distant? We need to become immortal first so that day to day issues like 'work' recede into the background and we can have true Marxism.

[Fidel Follower]

Bullshit.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jul 3 2006, 10:49 AM
A Marxist society will naturally sprout without any compulsion.

And it's this kind of bullshit that holds us back more than anything else. If a Marxist society is naturally going to come about, I might as well sit back and take another sip of mango juice...

I believe the revolutionary struggle is immediate and present, and nothing will be achieved without organisation and violent struggle, which must be part of our current lives.

[EusebioScrib]

We do NOTHING! Technology inevitably advances, once the machines start doing the work for us, nanomachines flying through the air constantly repairing us, capitalism will become less important. People will stop working and start doing the thing that comes after that - helping each other out. A Marxist society will naturally sprout without any compulsion.

No. Do nothing? Technology doesn't advance independetly. It only advances through human will power. Without that everything would be dorment and dead. Human struggle is what advances technology. Right now, it has no mind of it's own.


But is communism even necessary for the process to occur? Perhaps communism just occurs once we become mechanoid Gods and realise we don't need capitalism any more. This is how I see capitalism dying, not by restriction to be replaced by state capitalism as in the 20th century regimes, but simply because people walk away from it. Then perhaps it won't come back.


It is entirely. Transhumanism is not a precondition for communism, it is communism. You are very right in that people walk away from it. Nobody thinks "let me overthrow the government!" They think, how can I create an alternative so that I won't be alienated? It's all about new alternatives, which ultimately lead to qualitative changes (revolution).


I find it very difficult to reconcile Marx's idealism with our crime ridden world, or indeed humans as they are today. I think it lies in the distant future, or not so distant? We need to become immortal first so that day to day issues like 'work' recede into the background and we can have true Marxism.

No. Human nature arguement = shit. Like I said transhumanism is only possible in communism. It's a species event. We all have to do it.

[Raj Radical]

Marxright, at first I wasent quite sure why you are a restricted member.

You and whoever else can become rich and exploit the workers in the name of communism? Brilliant way to make daddy proud guilt-free.


I'll stick to activism.

P.S. We arent waiting until teleporting lasers and nano-bots do all our work. Im not sure if you understand what a labor movement is all about

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Woah, doing nothing. That's like, so revolutionary man. Totally. We rage against the machine man, we sit on our arses and smoke pot all day... Viva la revolution.


-Alex

[Zero]

I wouldn't say no to sitting on my ass and lighting up, but you better not call it a 'revolutionary activity'.

As for Marxism coming about on its own... yeah, you could be right. Theres a billion and one evolutionists out there, and you could be one too.

However it is quite iminent that we destroy Capitalism NOW, reguardless of whether or not it will evolve into a more Libertarian (the real usage of the word, not that pansy U.S. bullshit) society. As the world is drained more and more of it's resources nations will become more and more dependant on finding the remaining resources. IE war.