Education Of Ciommunism In France Backfires

[Abolish Communism]

Since 1968, the French Communist Party has committed itself to the education of the public of the benefits of Marxist and socialist reform. It has stood for election and has won seats in government, but never more than 5%.

While the French are not as well educated as, well, I am, for example, they do have a reputation for acute political knowledge. Yet despite this, its Commie Party is in serious decline, and lacks any achievements since the fall of Soviet Russia.

Someone wrote on the board that to be a commie in France is to be patriotic. I won't dispute that, and have no way to do so. But outside of parading down the streets of Paris in the nude to stop animals from experimens or end the WTO, WHAT has the commie parties in ANY EUROPEAN NATION done to cause people to get behind them?

I mention this because it appears they are going down in public interest over the past 40 years.

[communismkillspeople]

Hey brother! Are You and I the only anti Commies on this board??? because if we are, we are gonna have to stick together. ;)

[SocialistGenius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:53 AM
Hey brother! Are You and I the only anti Commies on this board??? because if we are, we are gonna have to stick together. ;)
Aww.. so cute.

[Raj Radical]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:53 AM
Hey brother! Are You and I the only anti Commies on this board??? because if we are, we are gonna have to stick together. ;)
No, there are plenty of Cappies on the Opposing ideologies forum.

Me and abolish communism joined around the same time, its only a matter before she joins the darkside!!!!! :hammer: :banner: :star: :AO: Mwahhahahaha

[Abolish Communism]

Me and abolish communism joined around the same time, its only a matter before she joins the darkside!!!!! Mwahhahahaha

I admit that I do enjoy discussions with Raj. DON'T TELL ANYONE!

[B.E. Jones]

Most of the communist parties that formerly controlled a decent ammount of power were ussualy supportive of either Soviet Russia's Bueracratic (excuse my typeing) Psuedo-Socialism, or a vanguard party.

Both of which are obsolete and aren't at all effective in acheiving actual communism, makes sense that they dissolve with time, and I hope they take their poor approach to marxism with them.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Fuck bourgeois elections. The reformist CP of France has nothing to do with communism and hasn't for some time.

This is what real class struggle looks like: It's right to rebel! French youths show the way! (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fp16m.html)

[Abolish Communism]

from B.E. Jones:

Most of the communist parties that formerly controlled a decent ammount of power were ussualy supportive of either Soviet Russia's Bueracratic (excuse my typeing) Psuedo-Socialism, or a vanguard party.

Both of which are obsolete and aren't at all effective in acheiving actual communism, makes sense that they dissolve with time, and I hope they take their poor approach to marxism with them.


from CompañeroDeLibertad:

Fuck bourgeois elections. The reformist CP of France has nothing to do with communism and hasn't for some time.


That's not my point. My point is far more basic. One of the chief arguments of my California education, which would disgust the commies at the board, is that we in CA don't discuss or explore Communism or Marxism beyond the surface, and most always in a negative light. Same with the other 49 education systmes. So, as a group, Americans grow up not well read on the entire concept of "Socialism".

I think I can safely speak for the commies that run this forum that it is their position that Americans, as a whole, haven't a clue about any of these theories, and that if they educated themselves about them, and knew the suffering of the Third World, they would think differently about capitalism.

Well, France is a nation, as been pointed out at a different thread, that more or less DOES discuss socialism as part of their overall political education, street education, bar and nightlife discussion education, university education, etc.

So where's the friggen difference in the RESULT?!?

[Sabocat]

The difference is that France is much more Socialist in form than the U.S.

Whenever there are laws to be passed that attack the working class directly, they actually mobilize en masse and prevent it from happening. For an example see the last battle over the "first contract".

It is clearly a much more particapatory democracy. More inclined to move to the will of the people.

The reason for this in France, is that they're much more politically involved as evidenced by the number of Socialist, Anarchist and Communist parties there.

[Abolish Communism]

Disgustapated:

You can't have it both ways. Other threads here have pointed out that you commies are just as disgust(ipated) by France and Sweden as you are the good ol' U.S. of A.

To you, France is a capitalist nation with a greater safety net for the lower classes.

BUT you still appear not to address why this "first contract" anger doesn't appear to mount to more than a 7% endorsement of Socialism. As I wrote above, with all of the "socialist" education the French have had since 1968, WHERE'S THE LITERAL PAYOFF?

That's nearly 40 YEARS!!!

Paticipatory democracy my ass. They're as capitalist in France as we are here. They just have a greater safety net to protect their unions and job interests. The tools of production are still in the hands of their class enemy.

[Sabocat]

They have that greater saftey net because of the communists, socialists and anarchists. Why can't you understand that? Do your seriously think someone like Chirac would entertain any social programs at all if there were no political ramifications for getting rid of them?

France is/was as colonialist/imperialist as any other capitalist country. We do not consider France to be a shining example of Communism or Socialism. What I'm trying to say is that class consciousness is much more prevalent in France than in the U.S. The reason for that is a much better understanding of Marxism.



Paticipatory democracy my ass. They're as capitalist in France as we are here

Agreed, but what does that have to do with participatory democracy? When is the last time you say 1-2 million people in the streets in the U.S. over a law or bill that affects the working class?

Where are you getting your 7% endorsement of Socialism? I get 37.56% votes for groups that are Socialist or Communist. (2002 elections of course)


Rally for the Republic (Rassemblement pour la République) 5,666,440 19.88%
Jean-Marie Le Pen National Front (Front National) 4,805,307 16.86%

Lionel Jospin Socialist Party (Parti Socialiste) 4,610,749 16.18%

François Bayrou Union for French Democracy (Union pour la Démocratie Française) 1,949,436 6.84%

Arlette Laguiller Workers' Struggle (Lutte Ouvrière) 1,630,244 5.72%

Jean-Pierre Chevènement Citizens' Movement (Mouvement des Citoyens) 1,518,901 5.33%

Noël Mamère The Greens (Les Verts) 1,495,901 5.25%

Olivier Besancenot Revolutionary Communist League (Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire) 1,210,694 4.25%

Jean Saint-Josse Hunt, Fish, Nature, Traditions (Chasse, Pêche, Nature, Traditions) 1,204,863 4.23%

Alain Madelin Liberal Democracy (Démocratie Libérale) 1,113,709 3.91%

Robert Hue French Communist Party (Parti Communiste Français) 960,757 3.37%

Bruno Mégret National Republican Movement (Mouvement National Républicain) 667,123 2.34%

Christiane Taubira Left Radical Party (Parti Radical de Gauche) 660,576 2.32%

Corinne Lepage Citizenship, Action, Participation for the XXIst Century (Citoyenneté Action Participation pour le XXIe siècle) 535,911 1.88%

Christine Boutin Forum of Social Republicans (Forum des Républicains Sociaux) 339,142 1.19%

Daniel Gluckstein Party of the Workers (Parti des Travailleurs) 132,702 0.47%

[Abolish Communism]

Disgustapated:

I used the 7% as true, dyed in the wool Communists. If you add a couple of the others, merely by their names, you would have perhaps 15%.

Well you've certainly thrown me for a loop today. Perhaps it's because we're getting closer to the Fourth of July and you're giving me a present. I accept it.
You're the first member here (and a Mod at that) who is proud of the triumph of democracy, or at least the success of it. I'm proud of you.

It is possible that we in America will move more toward the left and Europe will move more toward the right. The pendulum swings and swings. It all depends. Europe has a history of creating monsters that likes to gobble up the rest of it. NATO and EC have blunted their usual warlike mentality. (Uh oh, Americans contributed to something resulting in peace. Don't tell anyone!)

But seriously, I'm glad one of you guys (gals?) have admitted the benefits of representitive deomcracy. We just couch it in different ways. You seem to think success of socialism are scraps thrown to the lower classes so they don't revolt; I think they don't want to revolt, just improve the current system.

Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle, or both of us are right at differet times.

[Sabocat]

doesn't appear to mount to more than a 7% endorsement of Socialism

First you said endorsement of Socialism, then you capitualte and say..


I used the 7% as true, dyed in the wool Communists.

Make up your mind.


If you add a couple of the others, merely by their names, you would have perhaps 15%.

No...you'd have 37.56%. Thanks for playing.

I don't understand your amazement that a communist would like the idea of democracy. Communism is all about particapatory democracy. Not the bogus bourgeois representative democracy that we currently have in the U.S., but a real democracy with collectives having representation on a much greater scale. Something along the lines of a collective representative for each 100,000 people. Those representatives would receive no higher wage than a skilled worker, and would be recallable at any time.


NATO and EC have blunted their usual warlike mentality. (Uh oh, Americans contributed to something resulting in peace. Don't tell anyone!)

Some food for thought. The U.S. since WWII has been involved in some military action on the average of every 15 months. Soviet Russia averaged once every 6 years or so. Now who had the warlike mentality again?

[Abolish Communism]

Some food for thought. The U.S. since WWII has been involved in some military action on the average of every 15 months. Soviet Russia averaged once every 6 years or so. Now who had the warlike mentality again?


Some food for thought. The U.S. has an armed services day every year in many towns throughout the country. It is not as well known as Memorial or Veteran's Day. Yet even on that day, we do not show our weapons off. During the same period you mention, the USSR used every holiday opportunity to march through its largest cities streets its weapons of mass destruction. Its civil service and military were combined, unlike ours. Our military control was civilian, there's was muddled, and their security services walked the common streets and brought fear into the hearts of its peoples. Now who had the warlike mentality again?

[Sabocat]

Do you really think all the strikers killed by private security companies or the National Guard in the late 19th and early 20th centuries really cared which group was killing them?

Do you think the student protesters at Kent State knew or cared who was shooting them?

Do you think for a minute that the FBI, CIA, NSA etc. do not intimidate the civilian population?

Please.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 1 2006, 11:29 PM
Since 1968, the French Communist Party has committed itself to the education of the public of the benefits of Marxist and socialist reform. It has stood for election and has won seats in government, but never more than 5%.

While the French are not as well educated as, well, I am, for example, they do have a reputation for acute political knowledge. Yet despite this, its Commie Party is in serious decline, and lacks any achievements since the fall of Soviet Russia.

Someone wrote on the board that to be a commie in France is to be patriotic. I won't dispute that, and have no way to do so. But outside of parading down the streets of Paris in the nude to stop animals from experimens or end the WTO, WHAT has the commie parties in ANY EUROPEAN NATION done to cause people to get behind them?

I mention this because it appears they are going down in public interest over the past 40 years.
Yes, the same party that told everyone to go back to work in 1968, right? FUCK THEM.

[Abolish Communism]

D:

We appear to really be going far afield from my original comments about France and its disinterest in revolution, though it is very "Marxist" in its knowledge base.


Do you really think all the strikers killed by private security companies or the National Guard in the late 19th and early 20th centuries really cared which group was killing them?

Do you think the student protesters at Kent State knew or cared who was shooting them?

Do you think for a minute that the FBI, CIA, NSA etc. do not intimidate the civilian population?

Please.


1. Do you think the millions killed by the purges of Stalin really cared which group was killing them.

2. That's how free America is. WE have ONE incident such as Kent St., and it makes our history books. (It's in mine.) Commie books didn't even admit to Chernobal, let alone the millions killed by their security aparat.

3. I have never met ANYONE who has commented to me about fears about the agencies you mentioned. Not once.

Please.

[Sabocat]

Really? No one was intimidated by the FBI's Palmer Raids and then McCarthyism during the 50's?

What about COINTELPRO? You don't think any groups were intimidated by that?

More recently, I must be reading different papers than you. There is a lot of paranoia, and fear about what the govt. is doing with the information gathered by the NSA for it's secret program to monitor cell phone communications (done illegally), and more recently, the tracking of banking also done illegally.



2. That's how free America is. WE have ONE incident such as Kent St., and it makes our history books.

:lol: One incident? This is what I'm talking about with regards to your printed history books. There are countless incidents of the U.S. govt. and/or police forces killing it's civilian population. Can I recommend Zinn's "A Peoples History of the United States" for you as at least a starting point?

It's hard not to admit to Chernobyl. The entire town and vicinity was completely evacuated and remains closed today.

[Abolish Communism]

Can I recommend Zinn's "A Peoples History of the United States" for you as at least a starting point?

I have it on the shelf here. Never opened it. Read his premise. His overall goal is the dismantling of the United States (apart from any Revolution that would end all nations.)

As he has an ax to grind in ending America as a nation, powerful or otherwise, I won't even touch the thing.

[Raj Radical]

Im a bit confused, but what I think you were saying for the first half of the post at least was, "if communism is so good why hasent france had a revolution if they know bout all that stuff".

Well, for a number of reasons.

I spent some time in Marseille, the main difference is the people- they are a lot nicer in France :lol: . And the food is great!

The infrastructure and schools , I didnt spend any formal time in the public school system , but I didnt see much of a difference.

Me saying that there is sympathy and understanding of communism and other populist movements in France is only significant when in comparison to the US of A.


Its only natural that because of this there would be proportionatly more severe civil disobidience and uprisings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws93/paris39.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4407688.stm

Even smaller socialist parties in Frence do much better than the "radical left" of the US (Ralph Nader) in national elections.

But to flaw them for not having a revolution yet is proposterous, considering it would be considered military aggression against a member state of the EU, not to mention they just had the bloodiest revolution in history 200 years ago.

[Sabocat]

What axe to grind?

He was a bombadier in the Air Force during WWII, educated on the GI Bill, became a professor and taught at Spellman College during the height of the civil rights movement. What his "ax" was, was that there were large chunks of the U.S.' history that most people weren't even aware of.



His overall goal is the dismantling of the United States

No, his overall goal is to provide information on history that has been edited out of the sanitized versions of history provided in textbooks. History represented from a "peoples" perspective.

I can certainly see how that would worry you though. The truth hurts.

[Abolish Communism]

No, his overall goal is to provide information on history that has been edited out of the sanitized versions of history provided in textbooks. History represented from a "peoples" perspective.

I can certainly see how that would worry you though. The truth hurts.


Nothing I've written would imply that I am against the truth from outing.

He is an ORIGINAL supporter of the Maoist platform "World Can't Wait".org.

I have spoken with their leadership, and have received an e-mail from Zinn specifically.

These days the movement speaks of impeachment, but originally, they supported the notion of physically removing the President from office (in exchange for Chaney?) through surrounding and blanketing Washington, D.C. with people until Bush stepped down. The leadership's purpose was the LITERAL END of the Constitution, and they have ruled the constitution an invalid document. So whatever Zinn originally fought for, he's moved on to some other thoughts.

A person with such views is one which I choose not to be influenced by.

No doubt you have similar standards.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 2 2006, 02:58 PM





A person with such views is one which I choose not to be influenced by.

How would you be influenced by him by reading a history book? He puts the facts out there, you don't have to accept his interpretation of history to agree with FACTS.

BTW world can't wait is a joke. I'd be as afraid of them as republicans would be afraid of "the french" in a war.

[Abolish Communism]

violencia.Proletariat,

I understand that POV, and know many have read, My Struggle, by Hitler, though they don't agree with him and would never let themselves be influenced by him.

But I have no interest in those who's mission is the destruction of the United States. This professor from Colorado is in the same category.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 2 2006, 04:51 PM
But I have no interest in those who's mission is the destruction of the United States.
Let's see, you have an ideal which you call "the United States" (although you are not exactly talking about it) which you defend at all costs from those who want to "destroy" (?) it, and you seem to think that those persons cannot be trustworthy because they want to destroy your "utopia".

Nevermind the fact that those persons are not really trying to "destroy" much (much less a nation) and could have come to certain conclusions about your nonexistant utopia not being exactly a utopia and therefore reacting to it, but you are so blinded by your desire of your ficticious "United States" being the truth that you just assume that they are just "evil" and making up things to justify their "evil" even if they found out those "lies" before deciding they should support that "destruction" (?), and then go around with your hands in your ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" when somebody wants to show you what could easily be the truth.

In other words, your reasoning is ridiculous.

[Abolish Communism]

In other words, your reasoning is ridiculous.

No, in other words, you didn't make any sense at all. (Outside of boring me.)

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 2 2006, 07:26 PM

In other words, your reasoning is ridiculous.

No, in other words, you didn't make any sense at all.
Ok, then I'll put it this way: you've ignored the suggestion somebody gave you of reading Zinn under the excuse that he "wants to destroy the United States", and in doing so you've ignored the fact that he might support whatever he does which goes against your flawed notion of "the United States" because of the things he mentions in his book.

Instead you just made it look like he decided to "dismantle the United States" and then made up a whole book as propaganda to carry on his evil plans to "destroy" the pathetic institutions you blindly worship.


(Outside of boring me.)

Nobody said thinking was going to be fun.

[Abolish Communism]

A5 Self Incrimination Clause – no shall (any person) be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself. Interpreted to include any non-voluntary or non-Mirandized confessions.

You are correct, Sir, that's his plan.

It's also Ward Churchill (though he doesn't hide it.)

Look, El Infiltr(A)do (why is your name all broken up and weird?)

I realize your interests are Communism and mine is the prevention/destruction of Communism.

This is probably not your line of country (that's a Brit expression), but there are also Commies who believe that the U.S. is a nation that is "illegal" in its foundation, and that its citizens are living on borrowed time and on stolen land.

Of course I believe in the freedom to hold these views, but when someone does so, they have made themselves my enemy, and I will work to confront them.

Now, this Zinn guy is a historian and probably has a lot of correct statements about the history of the U.S. (though anyone who would place it as the equal to the USSR in the "police killed people dept" needs their head examined), but he blew it when he tipped his hand as being an enemy to the Constitution by standing with those who would circumvent it by physically forcing out our President from power.

He does not believe in the rule of law, so the hell with him.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 2 2006, 03:29 AM
Since 1968, the French Communist Party has committed itself to the education of the public of the benefits of Marxist and socialist reform. It has stood for election and has won seats in government, but never more than 5%.

While the French are not as well educated as, well, I am, for example, they do have a reputation for acute political knowledge. Yet despite this, its Commie Party is in serious decline, and lacks any achievements since the fall of Soviet Russia.

Someone wrote on the board that to be a commie in France is to be patriotic. I won't dispute that, and have no way to do so. But outside of parading down the streets of Paris in the nude to stop animals from experimens or end the WTO, WHAT has the commie parties in ANY EUROPEAN NATION done to cause people to get behind them?

I mention this because it appears they are going down in public interest over the past 40 years.
The French CP is to the right of much of the working masses in France. There have been several working class rebellions in the last year or so and the French CP actually condemned the immigrant rebellion.

I've heard that the anarcho-syndicalist CNT are now larger than the CP. If the masses are rejecting the CP's reformism we won't complain. :D

[JimmyC]

Well, France is a nation, as been pointed out at a different thread, that more or less DOES discuss socialism as part of their overall political education, street education, bar and nightlife discussion education, university education, etc.

So where's the friggen difference in the RESULT?!?


In the 1950's and 60's security forces of France (what the commies at this board would call the reactionary forces) spent a great deal of time and money in a secret "spy" war between their agencies and Fifth Column trade unions in southern France, especially on coastal port cities.

There was at the time a conserted effort on the part of the communists to have a socialist revolution in France (far deeper than student activities of the late '60s.)

The failure of their movement, outside of the division in France over this issue, was due in part to the Soviet Union's lack of support, beyond assistance with covert operations in the south.

It's funny, because historical study has shown that France in the 50's and 60's had more possibility of success for revolution than anywhere else in western Europe.