Professions Post-revolution

[R_P_A_S]

Here is where I have many doubts. Lets say there's this capitalist town. it has people who are Doctors, Teachers, Financial Advisors and Engineer. it also has Steel Workers, Construction workers and farmers.

Ofcourse the Doctors are great at what they do. they spend 10 or so years in college and have been practicing medicine for a long time now. This Doctors make about 100,000 a year! The Steel worker finished High School, never went to college he did odd jobs days in and out. has finnaly settle at the Steel Mill and makes 30,000 a year.

There are a lot of jobs and professions out in the world right now that are done exeptionally well by some people. and yes they make a shit load of money at it. but they are good.

Ok so we have a Revolution in this town. the working class takes over and lets say the transition to communism happens in this particular town. What would be of those Doctors? Do you HONESTLY think they will be willing to get like a monthly pension of $800 dollars? or something. what if they dont want to! and turn against the communist idea. Would they be thrown in Jail? or killed during the revolution?

What in the world can we the working class do? We won't have great doctors, we won't have good general contractors, or we wouldnt have any people of esential professions. how in the hell do you replace those who are at no fault. they paid their dues by working their asses off, going to school and moving up in their profession to make a living. (a very good one) and all the sudden they have to give it all up?

Im just wondering how a communist society can have and keep the people who once were making a lot of money and got used to it doing essential jobs. like doctors, and other things that people who are working class, and with out an education CANT DO.

[More Fire for the People]

People will perform the tasks they enjoy. If they enjoy being a doctor then they will probably want to be a doctor. In addition, being a doctor can be an emotionally self-rewarding job and I think that is enough incentive for a lot of people.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 1 2006, 05:20 PM
People will perform the tasks they enjoy. If they enjoy being a doctor then they will probably want to be a doctor. In addition, being a doctor can be an emotionally self-rewarding job and I think that is enough incentive for a lot of people.
I love your way of thinking. and I'd like to think that way too. But try telling that to some neurosurgeon at the UCLA Medical Center.

[Comrade-Z]

I love your way of thinking. and I'd like to think that way too. But try telling that to some neurosurgeon at the UCLA Medical Center.

You also have to realize that education will be free as well.

And really, would you rather spend your years from age 18-26 studying medicine (for free), or as a steel worker? Either way you are working. I would think more people would want to be doctors, no?

[anomaly]

It almost sounds as if you (RPAS) are arguing that current doctors are simply 'smarter' than current steel workers. Once education is free, who's to say these steel workers won't train to become doctors?

To answer your question more generally, I think the issue of whether people will become doctors even if that means no economic advantage over others comes down to one's own interests. People will always be interested in different things, and some people enjoy being a doctor, and studying to become one. If it was really true that our biggest motivator is money, we'd have everyone attempting to be doctors or lawyers today. But we don't see that.

In communism, varying interests will exist, but with much greater choice, freedom, and opportunity since financial constraints no longer exist.

[R_P_A_S]

Im not saying a doctor is generaly smarter than a steel worker. but if i need surgery you better believe im going to trust a doc who has his M.D. and experience over steel worker who became a doctor overnight.

What about the period RIGHT AFTER the revolution. like within the FIRST YEAR. are we supposed to go with out Doctors or other professionals who are essential to the community? are we to wait a few years till some go to the free colleges and graduate? I don't think so.

It just dont make sense. I can't see us making it alone. talking life long doctors who have been making hundreds of thousands of dollars to STOP making all that money they were used to making.

I don't know if this is making sense at all. but basically SAY these modern day doctors don't want to be part of this new communist society and cut back on their lavish life style and high 5 figuered income and just move out of the town. What are we going to be left with? a bunch of people who STILL have to go to school to get their M.D. there will be a major shortage of Doctors who are experienced and qualified. there has to be an easier transition for this people. so that they can come around the new idea and agree to it.

as opposed to just expecting them to understand and see things from our point of view. They won't became doctors because they know the money is really good. and yes ofcourse they wanna help people but I bet most of this rich doctors would do something esle if it didnt pay so well.

[YSR]

Who's to say that there aren't radicals who are doctors? Your situation of all doctors just leaving is rather unrealistic. Hell, Che was trained as a doctor, as I recall. There's no reason that doctors or any other essential profession won't remain around.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 1 2006, 11:22 PM
Who's to say that there aren't radicals who are doctors? Your situation of all doctors just leaving is rather unrealistic. Hell, Che was trained as a doctor, as I recall. There's no reason that doctors or any other essential profession won't remain around.
never said that doctors are only capitalist pricks. i bet there are some good leftist doctors, revolutionary ones like Che. I know. but still I think is silly for some of you to just think they will be OK with the dramatic change in life.


going from making 500,000 dollars a year ride around in mercedes benz, kick my feet up in my 3 million dollar mansion and go out in the weekends on my 250,000 yatch. TO...

working at a hospital treating sick people and making just as much as the dishwasher in the hospitals cafeteria.

I don't think they'll be too happy.

[Raj Radical]

Your concerned that current doctors wont be too happy after the revolution and will just refuse to work because they wont be making the same salary anymore so there will be a short period of time with a shortage of doctors?

We cant hope to know exactly how a post-revolutionary world would play out, we learn by experiment and struggle, which has been the method for all human progression.


I believe that Doctors, above all other professions, have seen the casualties of capitalism (some hospitals refusing care to non-insured people living in poverty or immigrants) and most of them got into medicine to save lives rather than make money, even though there are those who the opposite could be said. Sure, they wont be thrilled to give up the huge payroll but I believe most will realize that what they are doing is more important then a shallow materialistic narrow view of society which revolves around consumption and greed.


Think of the millions living in the US (and all over the globe) who for the most part have two choices; a life of poverty or joining the military , thats why Cuba has the largest amount of doctors per capita in the world and can afford to export doctors and provide health care all over Latin america

[OkaCrisis]

I'd like to point out, RPAS, that right now in Canadian society there is already a severe shortage of doctors and many people lack access to even the most basic medical attention (this is not even to mention the conditions of American "healthcare"). Why? Is it because children don't "want to be doctors" when they grow up? No, of course not. We all know that kids dream big, and have even bigger hearts. They want to grow up to help people, and they are attracted to the social prestige and honour that comes with being able to do that. These things will still exist, and probably on a larger scale, post-revolution.

So why the shortage of doctors? Is it because children today, once grown, can't afford the education needed in order for them to become doctors? I think that's a very likely explanation, myself.

Or, is it because even once people go to school and get their training and papers there are simply no positions for them, since hospitals and clinics are continuously downsized or even shut down due to government shortages and cutbacks?


Also, your image of doctors who earn six figures and go yachting is not wholly correct. I would say that a large proportion of medical proffessionals who provide care to people are nurses anyway, who make much less than any MD. Even the MDs' incomes are limited (in Canada) by the government, and in the US, by the conditions of each doctor's specific office.

Anyway, I think that in a post-rev society, there would be many more people performing medicine on the whole, not only because people will have (unlimited) access to the training, knowledge and equipment, but also because on a smaller, decentralized scale, a lot more independent and home 'offices' will spring up. Many people practice unconventional kinds of medicine that are not recognized by the government, insurance companies, and even 'doctors' themselves. When barriers to independent medical practice are removed, I think we'll have access to a much greater variety of medical expertise in the future, not less.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+Jul 1 2006, 05:47 PM--> (R_P_A_S @ Jul 1 2006, 05:47 PM)
Hopscotch [email protected] 1 2006, 05:20 PM
People will perform the tasks they enjoy. If they enjoy being a doctor then they will probably want to be a doctor. In addition, being a doctor can be an emotionally self-rewarding job and I think that is enough incentive for a lot of people.
I love your way of thinking. and I'd like to think that way too. But try telling that to some neurosurgeon at the UCLA Medical Center. [/b]
Well, to be honest, from my experience- the people who go into medicine for the money make bad doctors. So it's no big loss at all.

AND with the financial barriers to taking 5-7 years of study removed the potential pool of doctors who'd do the work for the love of it would be much greater. So screw the greedy doctors and others!

[Comrade-Z]

going from making 500,000 dollars a year ride around in mercedes benz, kick my feet up in my 3 million dollar mansion and go out in the weekends on my 250,000 yatch. TO...

To appropriating whatever you want from society, right? We're assuming pre-existing superabundance, no?

Of course, people will be strongly encouraged to appropriate within reason, so as to perpetuate the really awesome social system (communism) that everyone had just recently been working so hard to create. Do you think doctors will scoff at this?

You also have to realize that part of the reason that they feel they need $500,000 per year right now is due to the vagaries of the capitalist system. With this system's inherent insecurity, you really can't ever have enough money! But why hoard such gross sums when doing so would be useless and even counter-productive as far as endangering the new awesome social system?

[An archist]

I think RPAS has a good point, whatever argument you bring up, some people just feel they need a lot of money to survive. If they make the same amount of money as someone who works less hard, why would they keep doing the hard job? Hell, why would they even stay in the country?
If you want to make sure this system works, you need a decent beaurocratic system of wages and a good police force and army to make sure no-one leaves the country etc.
And we all know what that leads to.

[rouchambeau]

You're looking at the problem from a totally bourgeois perspective. Haven't you heard that communism is the antithesis of wage-labor?

[STI]

Originally posted by "An archist"
If they make the same amount of money as someone who works less hard, why would they keep doing the hard job? Hell, why would they even stay in the country?

They'd keep doing it because they find it personally fulfilling.

Ever hear of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Well, basically, as soon as you have your base needs fulfilled (food, shelter, the like), you do things that will fulfill second-tier, security, needs. Once those are fulfilled, you strive to fulfill 3rd, 4th, and 5th-tier (love/belonging, esteem, and self-actualization, respectively).

In a communist society, 1 and 2 would be well taken-care-of. So then, why would people do things? So that they can belong, so that they can be "looked well upon", and, finally, because they want to "be the best they can be", make the most of their unique abilities, predispositions, and interests.

So, because Ms. Neurosurgeon doesn't have to worry where her next meal is coming from, she'll do what she wants (in her case, neurosurgery), because, well, we just went there.