If You Had To Choose...

[bl!ng]

If you were forced to choose, which american president would you say was the best (Throughout history)? Why?


I'm really interested to hear your answers and reasoning.


PS: Don't pussy out and say "none." Answer the question.

[Jesus Christ!]

FDR because he was the best president for the time and he helped us out of a depression and through a world war.

[Raj Radical]

Theodore Roosevelt

[CubaSocialista]

Well, maybe, Washington, or Jefferson. Maybe Jackson, if he hadn't been a genocidal warlord against the native Americans.

I actually am kind of fond of the modern perspective of Jimmy Carter today, as a retired president, he's moved to the farther left, so he's getting less press attention. He's called for an end to the cuban embargo, and called out evangelists at their game, and voiced support for the extension of social services and public projects.

[Ferg]

Kennedy, even though he was on bad terms with Castro and the USSR, he started the space program and I love him for that. He also had sex with Marilyn Monroe.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by Raj [email protected] 30 2006, 08:26 PM
Theodore Roosevelt
Someone has been reading the lastest article of Tme.

[Raj Radical]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ!+Jun 30 2006, 11:21 PM--> (Jesus Christ! @ Jun 30 2006, 11:21 PM)
Raj [email protected] 30 2006, 08:26 PM
Theodore Roosevelt
Someone has been reading the lastest article of Tme. [/b]
No but I would be interested in reading that :ph34r:

[LSD]

Firstly, this is a throughly ludicrous question as "great men" do not define history, social change does. American presidents have always represented the interests of the American bourgeoisie, the only times that they have done "good things" is when the working class has been in a position to force them to.

So, Roosevelt may have in 1932 adopted half of the Socialist Party Platform of 1928, but that's only because the material conditions forced his hand. He really should not be given any credit for his "invention" of social assistance programs; especially considering that 90% of this were just rewrites of programs that Socialists had been proposing for decades.

None of this is to say though that some Presidents can't be esepcially bad. Raegan, for instance, was not only the vanguard of 1980s reaction, but was also himself a horribly regressive ideologue and practically an admitted stooge of American capital.

And for anyone praising "Teddy" Roosevelt, I highly advise that you read this thread (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=34103).

There was nothing "progressive" about that biggoted imperialist dolt. :angry:

[TC]

FDR because he was the best president for the time and he helped us out of a depression and through a world war.

He was also the one who declared all US citizens of Japanese ancestory "excluded" and sent them to concentration camps...justified by a war that he started by cutting off Japanese oil supplies forcing a Japanese retaliation.


Theodore Roosevelt

Roosevelt was probably one of the *worst* presidents as he was an aggressive militaristic colonial imperialist.


Kennedy, even though he was on bad terms with Castro and the USSR, he started the space program and I love him for that.

Thats a really horrible thing to say! Kennedy tried many times to murder Castro and staged a CIA invasion of Cuba, he also nearly caused a nuclear war by threatening nuclear strikes on Cuba in response to the legitimate Soviet protection of the island.

The only reason he "started 'the' space program" was because the Americans had an inferiority complex that the Soviet Union had superior technology and could go to outerspace but they couldn't.


Anyways, my favorite US president is Wlliam Harrison...this is because he did nothing in office and then died less than a month in. An excellent example of what an American president should do in office!

[Raj Radical]

The question was a "lesser of 43 evils".

Not saying that T. Rossevelt was without faults or by any means a socialist, but domestically he advocated a mild form of conservationism and "trust busting" of corporations, which was quite "radical" at the time. :cool:

[Raubleaux]

Abraham Lincoln. It isn't even close.

[Big Boss]

I think that the president that lifts the Cuban embargo will have my respects.

[bcbm]

McKinley and Kennedy, because the motherfuckers got what they had coming to them.

[Rollo]

Harry Truman.

Wait he was a fuck, he'de be the worst president. I'ma go with that horrible drink that was around ages ago called crystal pepsi. That stuff sucked.

[EusebioScrib]

Well, from who's perspective?

If we look at it from the perspective of the bourgeoisie we have a number of presidents...who were "the best" because they did exactly what was expected of them, or they did what was best for capital:

-Lincoln
-Roosevelt 1 and 2
-Wilson
-Reagan

I think would be some of the most important in regards to defense of capital.

From our (working classes) perspective, the only answer can be none. No president does things in defense of the working class, they do it out of fear and repression. Every concession they give us has a dual-character: 1. Give into workers' power 2. Pacify us.

Fuck 'em all!

[Martin Blank]

Lincoln -- without question.

Miles

[Simotix]

I don't think it really takes a genius to realize that Abraham Lincoln was (and will forever be) the greatest president we ever had.

[Rollo]

The best prime minister would be a ahrder question. Why? Australian history is boring.

[Vladislav]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:53 AM
Australian history is boring.
try America, mate. ;)

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Ferg+--> (Ferg)Kennedy, even though he was on bad terms with Castro and the USSR, he started the space program and I love him for that.[/b]

What is so great about the space program? You dont think the billions that go there could have been better spent serving people on earth?

Oh and Kennedy, the guy who invaded Cuba? :P


Originally posted by TC+--> (TC)Anyways, my favorite US president is Wlliam Harrison...this is because he did nothing in office and then died less than a month in. An excellent example of what an American president should do in office![/b]

This is clearly the best possible answer, same idea but not as good go to Lincoln (thanks Booth!) or Kennedy (thanks Oswald et al.!)
I agree with Tragic


[email protected]
Why? Australian history is boring.

I think you mean, the history of australian nationhood is boring, (de)colonisation history is actually very interesting


exoity
I don't think it really takes a genius to realize that Abraham Lincoln was (and will forever be) the greatest president we ever had.

Because he ate a bullet?

[Dreckt]

I'd say Washington, because he led the fight against the British imperialist at that time. Then, of course, the US became an imperial nation itself, so the question is a tricky one...

[EwokUtopia]

My answer would have to be Jefferson, though if Franklin became a president, that wouldnt have been a bad thing either. It being a good thing is a completely different matter, however. America very nearly became a monarchy, democracy was just easier at the time than finding a strain of royal blood.

[More Fire for the People]

Thomas Jefferson. He was skeptical as to whether or not private property could lead to happiness. Emphasized liberty and came up with statements like "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." and "educate and inform the whole mass of the people [...] They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." He also advocated 'ward republics', a kind of council of rural workers and farmers. Also, and more importantly, Thomas Jefferson, like me, had a penchant for dark girls =D


Originally posted by "CommunistLeague"
Lincoln -- without question.
Lincoln was a racist. Even though he opposed slavery, he couldn't see blacks as equal to whites. He failed to deliver on his promise of 40 acres and a mule and let his troops stop land redistribution.

[bayano]

malcolm x

[Raubleaux]

Originally posted by EusebioScrib+--> (EusebioScrib)If we look at it from the perspective of the bourgeoisie we have a number of presidents...who were "the best" because they did exactly what was expected of them, or they did what was best for capital:

-Lincoln[/b]

How did Lincoln do what was best for capital? He expropriated trillions of dollars worth of capital from the southern slavocracy! I believe he was also the first president to support the right to strike.


Hopscotch Anthill
Lincoln was a racist. Even though he opposed slavery, he couldn't see blacks as equal to whites. He failed to deliver on his promise of 40 acres and a mule and let his troops stop land redistribution.

1. Of course Lincoln was a "racist." By today's standards, even John Brown and William Lloyd Garrison were racists, because they held really paternalistic and condescending attitudes towards blacks that would not be acceptable today.

2. Lincoln never promised 40 acres and a mule. The "40 acres and a mule" concept came from a field order issued by General Sherman at the end of the war. The failure to live up to the promises of Reconstruction can hardly be placed on the shoulders of Lincoln or the Republicans. Reconstruction failed because of neo-Confederate terrorism and the sick politics of the Democratic Party.

[bl!ng]

EusebioScrib and LSD. The goal was to answer the question, not to dance around it. I asked if you had to pick.

[Raubleaux]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill
Thomas Jefferson.

It's interesting that you would denounce Lincoln as a racist who was soft on slavery, yet you praise Thomas Jefferson, who himself owned slaves. Not only that, but he was one of the first to conjure up pseudo-scientific justifications for racism, arguing that blacks were inherently stupid and smelled bad. Read Jefferson's writings about African Americans if you want to see some truly disgusting racist bullshit.


He was skeptical as to whether or not private property could lead to happiness.

Yet he pursued wealth, property, and all the trappings of aristocracy his entire life.


Emphasized liberty and came up with statements like "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Did you know that when Timothy McVeigh was arrested, he was wearing a shirt with that quote on it?

I can do you one better:

"To secure to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government" - Abraham Lincoln

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." - Abraham Lincoln


He also advocated 'ward republics', a kind of council of rural workers and farmers.

Yes, Jefferson was very anti-urban, anti-modern, anti-working class, etc. He believed in all sorts of backwardness.


Also, and more importantly, Thomas Jefferson, like me, had a penchant for dark girls =D

Are you black? I don't see how anyone can make light of the fact that Jefferson raped his female "property."

[More Fire for the People]

Wow Raubleaux way to take a fucking not-so-serious post and write a polemic against it. Sure Jefferson did alot of bad shit but he was the most progressive person of his time [or at least to my knowledge]. And if Abraham Lincoln was such a 'labor advocate' then why didn't he drive for social welfare and black rights?

As to me not knowing about Jefferson's 'scientific views', lay the fuck off you asshole. It's not as if everyone masturbates to Jefferson's writings. Fuck, the majority of what I know about Jefferson comes from brief articles and radical leftist commentary on Jefferson and Lincoln. And as far as I know, Sally Hemmings relationship was consensual, though I admit I don't know much about her.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by bl![email protected] 2 2006, 01:37 PM
EusebioScrib and LSD. The goal was to answer the question, not to dance around it. I asked if you had to pick.
If you think that the truth is "dancing around" the "issue" (as slim as it is) then you have no business being here.

I pick NONE.

Deal with it kiddo.

[bayano]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 2 2006, 03:54 PM
And as far as I know, Sally Hemmings relationship was consensual, though I admit I don't know much about her.
the sexual relations between a slave and her master cannot be consensual. honestly, think before you post

[Entrails Konfetti]

John Hansen,
He was the original first president of the United States (before it was a republic). And he never had any real power. :P

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 09:33 PM
Kennedy, even though he was on bad terms with Castro and the USSR, he started the space program and I love him for that. He also had sex with Marilyn Monroe.
Kennedy also iniated operation Mongoose, which was a terrorist campaign against the Cuban people and started Vietnam.

[EusebioScrib]

How did Lincoln do what was best for capital? He expropriated trillions of dollars worth of capital from the southern slavocracy! I believe he was also the first president to support the right to strike.

You said it yourself! Slavery. Capital is very opposed to slavery. The Civil War was the culmination of the bourgeoise victory over the already dying feudal slavocracy.

All you better learn to say fuck it to your highschool text books.


I asked if you had to pick.

Well why and when would I ever have to pick? Am I not picking by saying "none". I definitly "picked" something. Perhaps not what you wanted, but I sure as hell answered your question. I thought my post to be fairly insightful as it presented some "new" ideas and expanded your question to further debate. Following the confines to which the original poster intended never really furthers the debate. It needs a bit of shaking.

[Raubleaux]

Originally posted by EusebioScrib
You said it yourself! Slavery. Capital is very opposed to slavery. The Civil War was the culmination of the bourgeoise victory over the already dying feudal slavocracy.

Right, and Marxists always support capitalism over slavery. One of Lincoln's strongest supporters was Karl Marx.

[Raubleaux]

Hopscotch Anthill, you are reading a lot more hostility into my post than there was. I was just countering some of the points you made; no need to get angry. I really would like to know if you are black though.


Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill
And if Abraham Lincoln was such a 'labor advocate' then why didn't he drive for social welfare and black rights?

He did, insofar as it was possible. He was rather preoccupied with the Civil War for most of his life as president, as you could imagine.

[EusebioScrib]

Right, and Marxists always support capitalism over slavery. One of Lincoln's strongest supporters was Karl Marx.

Well, If I lived in 1861 I'd be like "Fuck yea! Develop Capital! Screw those semi-feudal bastards!" But I don't. No bourgeoisie ever does anything "for the working class".

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 2 2006, 01:06 PM
Lincoln was a racist. Even though he opposed slavery, he couldn't see blacks as equal to whites. He failed to deliver on his promise of 40 acres and a mule and let his troops stop land redistribution.
First of all, "Jeffersonian Democracy" was predicated on the maintenance of the slave system and second-class citizenship for non-landowners.

As for Lincoln, it is true that, when he was elected, he did not see the Africans held as slaves as equal. However, by 1865, he had changed his position (read Lincoln's last writings for the details). The sacrifice made by over 180,000 Black soldiers in the Union Army was a large factor in that shift.

The "40 acres and a mule" promise was never made by Lincoln. That was made by Gen. Sherman, but Lincoln supported the measure. It was after Lincoln was assassinated and Andrew Johnson was president that the promise was taken back.

You should really learn the history before speaking on it.

Miles

[Raubleaux]

Originally posted by EusebioScrib
Well, If I lived in 1861 I'd be like "Fuck yea! Develop Capital! Screw those semi-feudal bastards!" But I don't. No bourgeoisie ever does anything "for the working class".

You are being completely ahistorical. You don't think the abolition of slavery does anything for the working class? When Marx wrote to Lincoln he said, "From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class."

[Xiao Banfa]

I pick George W, since he created the graveyard of US imperialism- the Iraq conflict.

[EusebioScrib]

You don't think the abolition of slavery does anything for the working class?

No it definitly did. It furthered their misery. Hell, it added millions to their ranks! Proletarianization isn't a "bad" thing. But it's not in "our benefit." Historically speaking it's good, but on a micro level, it doesn't do shit, although can cause further misery.

BTW. I don't give a fuck what Marx said or wrote. He doesn't live in 2006. Things are different and we need to change his theories to fit to today. He would have done the same. Why? Cause he's a Marxist :P

[Mesijs]

I don't know too much about US presidents, but I'd give Clinton also a good chance. Especially when comparing him to other twentieth-century presidents like the Bushes and Reagan, he seems to me not a too big warmonger. But again, I don't know very much about US presidents.

[Marukusu]

BTW. I don't give a fuck what Marx said or wrote. He doesn't live in 2006. Things are different and we need to change his theories to fit to today. He would have done the same. Why? Cause he's a Marxist

To quote ye beardie master himself:

"I am NOT a marxist!"

:D

[Si Pinto]

Merkin Muffley.

For making me laugh

[rouchambeau]

Taft. :P

[Guerrilla22]

Grant, because he had no clue what he was doing and he was an alcoholic.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 2 2006, 05:57 PM
If you think that the truth is "dancing around" the "issue" (as slim as it is) then you have no business being here.

I pick NONE.

Deal with it kiddo.
But if you read the title of the thread it clearly says "If You Had To Choose."

So, if you don't choose, then don't fucking post.

Is it really that difficult?

[Raubleaux]

Grant was one of America's best presidents -- he supported civil rights for African Americans, cracked down on the Ku Klux Klan, etc.

[Guerrilla22]

Can we all agree that Grant was the best President/

[Sense-A]

George Washington. He didn't want to serve more than 4 years. He led his people against the oppressive Britain that they sailed across the Atlantic to escape. He crossed the deleware. He had wooden teeth. He made white wigs cool. The only president to stand near the frontline in the heat of battle. strategic. diplomatic. Didn't even have to win an election, most new Americans felt he deserved to lead the new country. The country WAS a country because of him. the first, the best. George Washington WAS a revolutionary!

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Sense-[email protected] 5 2006, 03:22 AM
George Washington. He didn't want to serve more than 4 years. He led his people against the oppressive Britain that they sailed across the Atlantic to escape. He crossed the deleware. He had wooden teeth. He made white wigs cool. The only president to stand near the frontline in the heat of battle. strategic. diplomatic. Didn't even have to win an election, most new Americans felt he deserved to lead the new country. The country WAS a country because of him. the first, the best. George Washington WAS a revolutionary!
Washingto was a slave owner and a member of the illuminati, plus he chopped down an innocent cherry tree. I thought we agreed that Grant was the best US president ever.

[Marukusu]

Washingto was a slave owner and a member of the illuminati

Hey, what's wrong with the Illuminati? I thought they where communists! :)

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:55 AM

Washingto was a slave owner and a member of the illuminati

Hey, what's wrong with the Illuminati? I thought they where communists! :)
ummm... Are we talking about the same illuminati that put there symbol of US currency?

[Marukusu]

ummm... Are we talking about the same illuminati that put there symbol of US currency?

The same New World Order that controls the UN.
The Secret Society that plans to take over the world and make the UN human rights real laws.
The mightiest enemies of religion on this earth.

Come on, the Illuminati wants peace, equality and ultimate enlightment. Doesn't that sound fair?

Join us!

[Guerrilla22]

I hate those fuckers, they control the whole world, along with the free masons.

[Black Dagger]

Don't forget the ZOG, international finance, catholics, gusanos and the CIA.

[Year: 1]

The high point of AmeriKKKan liberalism is the KKKennedy/Johnson years even though that produced the Vietnam war and trouble with Cuba. My favorite is Carter because he did not commit as much violence as his predecessors or those who came after him. Even though Carter would have been hanged for his support of Indonesia's occupation and annexation of East Timor and all the arms he gave to that country.

T. Roosevelt was a madman.

[razboz]

Year:1 i respect your right to spell thigs umm differently to the accepted norm but would you mind nnot replacing evry c and k ofor KKK it makes it frustrating to read. Thanks. And you missed one : "KKKarter"

On the point of the Illuminati its a conspiracy theory thats extremely difficult for me to belive on the one hand and extremly difficult to disprove on a nother due to the "Well that what they want you to think" argument that can be inserted wherever theres a falt. I just ignore the whole issue of secret organisations control the world cos its so mind bogglingly huge and incomprehensible.

[Marukusu]

On the point of the Illuminati its a conspiracy theory thats extremely difficult for me to belive on the one hand and extremly difficult to disprove on a nother due to the "Well that what they want you to think" argument that can be inserted wherever theres a falt. I just ignore the whole issue of secret organisations control the world cos its so mind bogglingly huge and incomprehensible.

Note the smiley on my post.
I wasn't serious.

However, I would say that Washington was the best president for being a revolutionary and anti-imperialist. However, he was also an asshole just like the rest of the presidents. I hate them all.

...However, the current dickhead George W. Bush is doing a pretty good job by being hated by both many of his own americans and the rest of the world, which suits our revolutionary purposes perfectly.

[Ander]

I don't understand how so many people like FDR. He was a fucking asshole.

[Ol' Dirty]

Carter, most deffinately. He kicks major presidntial ass. He was the most lefty.

Oh yeah, and FDR did bring us out of the deperession, and with the new deal, and all.

Miles.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 1 2006, 08:33 AM
McKinley and Kennedy, because the motherfuckers got what they had coming to them.
What about Lincoln. He got poped too.


I just found out McKinley was killed by an anarchist who was heavily influenced by Emma Goldman.

"I killed the President because he was the enemy of the good people—the good working people. I am not sorry for my crime."- Leon Czolgosz

[which doctor]

Ronald Reagan

He created more social deviants and punk kids than any other president.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 8 2006, 10:05 PM
Ronald Reagan

He created more social deviants and punk kids than any other president.
:D Funny. Good point.

[Dean]

Eisenhower, because he warned against the new military-industrial complex and he feared that it would take over the american democracy (which it did); he coined that phrase in fact.

[Viva Fidel!!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:20 PM
Eisenhower, because he warned against the new military-industrial complex and he feared that it would take over the american democracy (which it did); he coined that phrase in fact.
How can you say Eisenhower is America's greatest president when he played a MAJOR role on placing the embargo on Cuba.

[Free Left]

Ulysses Grant, tried to be the nice guy in the not so nice southern states.

[left-nut]

Richard Nixon, I guess. Détente with the USSR, ending the Vietnam War, and relations with China.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 03:20 PM
I don't understand how so many people like FDR. He was a fucking asshole.
What's the point of posting this?

[Dean]

Originally posted by Viva Fidel!!+Jul 12 2006, 11:14 PM--> (Viva Fidel!! @ Jul 12 2006, 11:14 PM)
[email protected] 9 2006, 09:20 PM
Eisenhower, because he warned against the new military-industrial complex and he feared that it would take over the american democracy (which it did); he coined that phrase in fact.
How can you say Eisenhower is America's greatest president when he played a MAJOR role on placing the embargo on Cuba. [/b]
what president in the 20th century eliminated that embargo? I think his concern for democracy was much more important to his character than the embargo, because his words have been ignored to allow millions upon millions of civilan and military deaths under the new military / corporate regme.

I don't idolize him; I had to choose.

[Viva Fidel!!]

Originally posted by Dean+Jul 13 2006, 09:30 PM--> (Dean @ Jul 13 2006, 09:30 PM)
Originally posted by Viva Fidel!!@Jul 12 2006, 11:14 PM

[email protected] 9 2006, 09:20 PM
Eisenhower, because he warned against the new military-industrial complex and he feared that it would take over the american democracy (which it did); he coined that phrase in fact.
How can you say Eisenhower is America's greatest president when he played a MAJOR role on placing the embargo on Cuba.
what president in the 20th century eliminated that embargo? I think his concern for democracy was much more important to his character than the embargo, because his words have been ignored to allow millions upon millions of civilan and military deaths under the new military / corporate regme.

I don't idolize him; I had to choose. [/b]
William Harrison. If you had to chose, you should have chosen him. :lol:

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 09:18 PM
Carter, most deffinately. He kicks major presidntial ass. He was the most lefty.
You must be kidding. :wacko:

Luís Henrique

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I do not like Theodore Roosevelt at all.

I'd go for.. Jimmy Carter. He tried to improve relations with Cuba and seem to have largely stayed out of foreign intervention? (if wrong, please correct me)

[CoexisT]

Madison.

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 01:54 AM
Anyways, my favorite US president is Wlliam Harrison...this is because he did nothing in office and then died less than a month in. An excellent example of what an American president should do in office!
That took the words out of my mouth.

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 13 2006, 01:00 PM
Ulysses Grant, tried to be the nice guy in the not so nice southern states.
He was a drunkard...and what else...

General Order No. 11, issued by Grant's headquarters in Oxford, Mississippi, on December 17, 1862, during the early Vicksburg Campaign. The order stated in part:

The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department, and also Department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department (comprising areas of Tennessee, Mississippi, and Kentucky).
The order was almost immediately rescinded by President Abraham Lincoln.

Other scandals included the Sanborn Incident at the Treasury, and problems with U.S. Attorney Cyrus I. Scofield.


And don't forget the Whiskey Ring.

In 1883, Grant was elected the eighth president of the National Rifle Association.

I could go on...

[Raubleaux]

Grant was not an anti-Semite. The order was an anomaly. He enjoyed good relations with the Jewish community throughout his political career. And the corruption that occured during his administration can hardly be blamed on him. It was the beginning of the Gilded Age, the era when political machines and big money ran the country. Plus the aftermath of the Civil War and the westward expansion provided ample opportunities for corruption. It isn't as if Grant was directing any of it or had any hand in it; he simply didn't know it was going on.

[Comrada J]

Dubaya. He shows us all that you don’t need to be smart in order to be successful, that and he makes me laugh. :D

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 2 2006, 09:54 PM
Wow Raubleaux way to take a fucking not-so-serious post and write a polemic against it. Sure Jefferson did alot of bad shit but he was the most progressive person of his time [or at least to my knowledge]. And if Abraham Lincoln was such a 'labor advocate' then why didn't he drive for social welfare and black rights?


Was he fuck.

Jefferson was perhaps the least progressive out of all the 'founding fathers'. His views were that gentlemen should own great swathes of land, where workers would work the land and he would reap the profits. He believed that the reason for 'european degradation' was due to the rise of industry. He believed that agricultural labour was godly and honest labour. In short he was conservative primitavist and as reactionary as any president in US history.

The man was a complete fool: -

"I think our governments will remain virtuous for many centuries as long as they are chiefly agricultural; and this will be as long as there shall be vacant lands in any part of America. When they get plied upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, they will become corrupt as in Europe."

I suggest you should read a little more in future.

[CoexisT]

Yes, Jefferson was definitely not the most progressive of the Founders. James Madison, in my opinion, was probably the most progressive of them. The Federalists were definitely a great deal more progressive than the others.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

It might well have been Al Gore, had he not been cheated out of office.

-Alex

[Tekun]

Im not gonna jump on the WH Harrison bandwagon
He might of not done a single worthwhile thing during his brief tenure, but the actions that he took against the Native Americans, such as forcing them from their lands and killing as many of them at Tippecanoe and other battles is impossible to disregard

If there was ever a president that was actually humane during his presidency, I'd say Gerald Ford
He did very little, removed troops from Vietnam, and signed the Helsinki Accords

[Craig]

I'd have to say Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and Kennedy -- because they all had the decency to get killed.

[edited to correct grammar]