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Free Floating Radical
30th June 2006, 18:58
It is generally taken as a given that mathematics, as they have been handed down to us, is not a creation of the Human mind, but rather the discovery of that which exists a priori.

I posit that that is not true.

I posit that our limited and limiting mathematics is the product of politically acceptable thought that arose in absolutely totalitarian regimes, most notably ancient Egypt and ancient Greece.

In such societies there was one man at the top of the societal pyramid.

It is not surprising, then, that the wholly exclusionary concepts of "one" and of the "point" were adopted as the jumping off points of mathematics.

Had mathematicians posited more inclusionary concepts, as did the Native Americans for whom the jumping off point is the circle, not the point; they would have had their heads handed to them.

I have developed a mathematical system that is far more inclusionary, plastic and which allows for far more concurrent potential than does classical math. I will not be elucidating the system here.

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to know how the contributors react to the idea that classical mathematics, far from being void of political or ideological content are totalitarian-oriented in the extreme and that they can be supplanted by higher forms of math.

I wrote the following piece, which is entirely serious despite the tongue-in-cheek formulation. It speaks of how we were browbeaten into accepting classical math, despite the fact that we intuitively rejected them as children. In order to accept math we capitulated and surrendered our thought to our teachers.

REASON AND CLASSICAL MATH

Classical mathematics, you see, is based on reason. You have to
accept axioms, ridiculous as they sound, unprovable as they are. The
reason you have to accept them is because math is based on reason.
The reason you have to accept the proposition that math is based on
reason is because if you don't you're being uncooperative and
unreasonable. If you are uncooperative and unreasonable then you will
be punished. Now that was logical. Right?

Doreen Ellen Bell-Dotan, Tzfat


The following is an excerpt from an article that was published in the fourth edition of Mensa Israel’s monthly magazine Illui, which came out in January 2004. It is entitled THE IMPERATIVE OF MORAL MATHEMATICS. I contend that our current system of mathematics stems from the immorality of totalitarianism.

THE IMPERATIVE OF MORAL MATHEMATICS

It is gratifying to see that a vanguard of intrepid mathematicians and physicists in this generation are now “heretical” enough to question the Orthodoxy of math, i.e., that the laws of math are a priori, devoid of any and all moral content, immutable, exist everywhere in the universe under any and all conditions, and were discovered by Human kind - in short sacrosanct. Had the systems of math, logic and nascent physics developed in ancient cultures in any way contradicted or contravened the power and grandiose plans of the rulers who commissioned the intellectuals of their day to do their work, the systems would have been buried unceremoniously, together with those who devised them. It is gratifying to see that they recognize that math is not just a language, but is predicated upon the language, and therefore the thought patterns of those who apply the principles.

I posit that: The mathematical system and logical systems accepted in the world today are, as were the cultures that bequeathed them to us, tyrannical. This and more, the ancients did not discover the mathematical principles and logical principles that govern the physical universe. Rather, being predisposed to tyranny and arbitrary laws, they invented a mathematical system and logical systems that were in keeping with their Weltanschauung. Simply put, people who hold that those who have “more” are greater than those who have “less” will create systems of thought that include such principles as: two is always, and under all conditions, greater than one. The person who has two grams of gold is richer than, therefore greater than, the person who has one and certainly in a far more enviable state than those who have none, i.e., those who may be enslaved.

There is an undeniable correlation between the mathematics we have inherited and the hierarchical social structures we have inherited, both of which seem so natural to us that few of us question the very foundations of either of them.

Both our mathematics and our social structures demand that we accept certain laws as inviolable and true under any and all circumstances. Both our mathematics and our social structures are based on the “reality” that there is information that only a privileged few are privy to. Finally, and most importantly, a math that posits that two is always, and under every and all condition greater than one leads to two barbaric conclusions: The person who has two dollars has more, i.e., is greater than the person who has one and the mob (sometimes called the majority when applied to those who have accepted the culture’s given way of thinking) rules.

The Egyptians Pharaohs amassed and centralized power; it stands to reason, then, that they built monuments to themselves in the shape of isosceles triangles, the apex of which, of course, is the god-king. Our geometry has been inherited from them.

By thinking of human society differently we make the logical jump to a more benign, less structured, less rigid math and logic that is filled with more possibility. Using these more elastic mathematical and logical principles we create a universe that is less dictatorial for ourselves and one another. In turn, the universe that more liberal math will describe will be supplanted with another, or others, far freer still.

This last piece, entitled I NOMINATE KURT GODEL FOR THE NOBEL PRIZE was published some time ago in "Gift of Fire", the journal of the Prometheus Society.

http://www.geocities.com/dordot2001/KurtGo...elLaureate.html (http://www.geocities.com/dordot2001/KurtGodelNobelLaureate.html)

Thank you for your consideration. I am most interested in your responses.

My friends call me Doreen, or D2 (a pet name given to me by the linguist Isaac Mozeson). It's about time that ya'll did too.

Dyst
30th June 2006, 19:12
I suggest that 2 to infinity topple the evil 1 government!

:lol:

Jazzratt
30th June 2006, 19:27
Are you still bitter at having failed maths at school? Suggesting that 2+2=4 is not Tyranical. It's not revolutionary either, because mathmatics is apart from politics. You never cease to amuse FFR, you never cease to amuse.

Rosa Lichtenstein
1st July 2006, 23:11
FFR, if you nominated Godel, that would have been enough to have sunk his chances (perhaps this is why he never won one?).

ÑóẊîöʼn
2nd July 2006, 01:36
Is she seriously suggesting that 2+2 does not always equal 4?

Insanity.

ComradeRed
2nd July 2006, 02:14
Is she seriously suggesting that 2+2 does not always equal 4?

Insanity. I dunno, maybe she programmed something in C++ that added 2 and 2 together and something went horribly awry (hence why I said C++ :P).

No, seriously, I have to ask: classical math, as opposed to what? Quantum math? Discrete math? Combinatorics? :huh:

Rosa Lichtenstein
2nd July 2006, 02:30
Well, in modular arithmetic, 2 + 2 (modulo 3) = 1

But I suspect FFR did not mean this!

Amusing Scrotum
2nd July 2006, 05:18
This has to be the most curious thread ever.


Originally posted by Free Floating Radical
I contend that our current system of mathematics stems from the immorality of totalitarianism.

So, would that made "our current system of mathematics" an "immoral" system? :blink:

To be honest, I think I'll stick with the "totalitarian" system in place now. I'm rubbish at it and I really don't fancy having to learn a whole new, "moral", system of mathematics.

LSD
2nd July 2006, 05:24
Well, in modular arithmetic, 2 + 2 (modulo 3) = 1

:lol:

Somehow I doubt that FMM was talking about modulo; it's probably too "tolaritarian" for her thinking, what with all that "limiting" of numbers' "potential"... :rolleyes:

Rosa Lichtenstein
2nd July 2006, 09:37
LSD, right, but even modular arithmetic has rules that you break only if you want to get the answer wrong.

Chrysalis
2nd July 2006, 10:11
Originally posted by Free Floating Radical
Simply put, people who hold that those who have “more” are greater than those who have “less” will create systems of thought that include such principles as: two is always, and under all conditions, greater than one. The person who has two grams of gold is richer than, therefore greater than, the person who has one and certainly in a far more enviable state than those who have none, i.e., those who may be enslaved.
:) The New York Stock Exchange and the Tokyo Stock Exchange will definitely agree with you: they are the seat of perversion.


There is an undeniable correlation between the mathematics we have inherited and the hierarchical social structures we have inherited, both of which seem so natural to us that few of us question the very foundations of either of them.
I think it is inevitable that we do take mathematical relations and apply them to other forms of thinking:
the quantities, the relations, the spatial relations, etc. become the measure of most of our daily practices. I don't think math is to blame, but you might have a point there: you just need to explore this more in the nature of psychology. Early societies for sure had heirarchical arrangements that is independent of their concept of numbers. They drew figures and symbols, the logos, to represent things, but perhaps left out and didn't have "first, second, third" relations or something like. If I had the time, and I am motivated, I can dig out my notes in cultural anthropology and see their hieroglyph.

The closest you can get to a "different reality" that really existed and that have no conception of mathematics is to study cultural anthropology that features early societies.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
2nd July 2006, 16:02
Whether mathematics exists a priori is a difficult question. Whether a priori knowledge itself exists is also hard to answer. I'd be inclined to say no, but I am not confident in that answer. It sounds like a rationalism and empericism debate, more than anything, and I am currently struggling over what philosophy is correct (if either of them are) or whether they are both partially valid.

Publius
2nd July 2006, 16:10
The Prometheus Society.

Hahahahahaahahahaha.

Somehow I don't feel in the presence of a high genius.

:lol: :lol: :lol: