Hip Hop

[AfricanMilitant]

THE MODerN REvolutionary is in Hip Hop



BIO

Immortal Technique (born 31 March 1978) is a hip hop artist and political activist. He was born Felipe Coronel in Peru. In many of his songs, he references the strife of poverty in the slums of America and he points blame at politicians and social and economic injustice. He has also expressed unwavering support for Mumia Abu-Jamal and has received support from Abu-Jamal in return, featuring him and his speeches via tapes on one of his albums. His politically based rhymes deal with the wrongdoings of the government, the media, religion, and law enforcement. Although he has been offered a deal with at least one major label, he has yet to sign with any, because of disagreements they have over the political content of his songs, as well as Immortal Technique wanting to keep control over his production. He became involved in the business end of things after realizing that in the music business, it is the record companies who are making most of the money. He is currently President of Viper Records.


His Lyrics

I pledge no allegiance, fuck the President's speeches
What the industry did to 'Pac they did to Jesus
Rapin' his vocals and destroying his message
Tryin to deport us if they can't destroy arrest us
Government front religious, but thier heart is empty
Like a televangelist preaching out of his bentley
Calling abortion murder in a medical building
But don't give a fuck about bombing Iraqi children
Talking like units in the fucking libretto
Look at thier mansions and look at your suburban ghetto
The gulag, the new hood where they send us to live
Cause they don't give a fuck about none of our kids
That's why blacks and latinos get the worst education
While devils run america like "Birth of a Nation"
Affirmative action ain't reverse discrimination
That shit is a pathetic excuse for reparations.

They say that terrorism revolves around the Qu'ran
But that's stupid, I'll show you why its totally wrong
Cause if this country was invaded and crumbled
I'd turn Harlem into a columbian jungle
And I wouldn't be fighting for a Christian nation
I'd be fighting for survival from extermination
I wouldn't fight for Fox News, them racist niggaz
I'd be fightin for the hood, for the faceless niggaz
I'd be fighting for the immigrants america loves to despise
Even tho it needs them to make the economy rise
They feed us genetically modified garbage
So I repetitively reload the cartridge
Boston, New York, down to Atlanta
Guerilla war in the swamps of Louisiana
Camera panoramas of hammers couldn't rock me
East coast to West coast you can't stop me
And fuck Schwarzenegger, his pops was a nazi
And it runs in the family so run for the grammys
Run to the coon picnic and try to pick up a mammy
But half of y'all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny
Eddie Murphy ass motherfuckers goin commercial
Even Interscope is gettin pimped by Universal
{?} sounds like green tooth lantern something {?}
But the Bin Laden slush fund remix just worked you

Some Lyrics Were cut out

More On: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Technique

[afrikaNOW]

Yeah IT, has some solid lyrics.

[rioters bloc]

dead prez :)

[afrikaNOW]

Definately can't forget DP. ;)

[Ian]

Imm Tech

[More Fire for the People]

Excluding 'other', I chose dead prez. They've got real life lyrics and a smooth style. Immortal Technique isn't all that smooth in his music. However, outside the list my favourite 'underground hip-hop group' is The Coup.

[Rex]

zach dela rocha/rage......

or is that just too cliche?

[EusebioScrib]

Tech is prob my favorite, but just to be different I'm gona say Son of Nun and Cypher: Dissdent. Both playing here in Philly on July 7, curtosey of Philly RAAN :P

[chimx]

nothing beats wutang

[ricardsju]

Other: Zearle, his messages are always free from reactionary bullshit that seem to be in other political rappers, such as promoting the belief in theism.

[che's long lost daughter]

Hows about SRA :rolleyes:

[Sanjee]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 10:26 PM
His Lyrics

I pledge no allegiance, fuck the President's speeches
What the industry did to 'Pac they did to Jesus
Rapin' his vocals and destroying his message
Tryin to deport us if they can't destroy arrest us
Government front religious, but thier heart is empty
Like a televangelist preaching out of his bentley
Calling abortion murder in a medical building
But don't give a fuck about bombing Iraqi children
Talking like units in the fucking libretto
Look at thier mansions and look at your suburban ghetto
The gulag, the new hood where they send us to live
Cause they don't give a fuck about none of our kids
That's why blacks and latinos get the worst education
While devils run america like "Birth of a Nation"
Affirmative action ain't reverse discrimination
That shit is a pathetic excuse for reparations.

They say that terrorism revolves around the Qu'ran
But that's stupid, I'll show you why its totally wrong
Cause if this country was invaded and crumbled
I'd turn Harlem into a columbian jungle
And I wouldn't be fighting for a Christian nation
I'd be fighting for survival from extermination
I wouldn't fight for Fox News, them racist niggaz
I'd be fightin for the hood, for the faceless niggaz
I'd be fighting for the immigrants america loves to despise
Even tho it needs them to make the economy rise
They feed us genetically modified garbage
So I repetitively reload the cartridge
Boston, New York, down to Atlanta
Guerilla war in the swamps of Louisiana
Camera panoramas of hammers couldn't rock me
East coast to West coast you can't stop me
And fuck Schwarzenegger, his pops was a nazi
And it runs in the family so run for the grammys
Run to the coon picnic and try to pick up a mammy
But half of y'all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny
Eddie Murphy ass motherfuckers goin commercial
Even Interscope is gettin pimped by Universal
{?} sounds like green tooth lantern something {?}
But the Bin Laden slush fund remix just worked you


What's the name of this song?

[Black Dagger]

Immortal Technique is a homophobic, sexist conspiracy nut-case, i'll take DP, Mr. Lif or Sun Rise Above over that fool any day. I voted 'other' for Lif and Sun RA as i didnt like DP's last album at all, and their lyrics are getting progressively more 'gansta' and less 'revolutionary', not RBG.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Sun Rise Above FTW :wub: :wub:

[Hampton]

Hasan Salaam

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 05:55 AM
Hasan Salaam

Do they have any tracks for download?

[Tekun]

Sun RA my fav :hammer:

I agree about DPz, they're becoming less revolutionary and more "thuggish"
IT sounds rather sexist, and I hate how he throws around "ni**er"

Zearle's doesn't sound like rap, IMO

[Red Heretic]

Has anyone else here checked out the hip hop group Blue Scholars? They're the fucking best, hands down! I highly recommend everyone to get their CD, as it has both the best sound, and highest level of ideology I have ever come across in any music.

http://myspace.com/bluescholars

and

http://myspace.com/bluescholars2

Be sure to listen to Southside Revival and Commencement Day. My favorite song, "Life and Debt," isn't on there, but hit me up on AIM and I'd be more than happy to send it to you.

[Ian]

I don't see why anyone likes Zearle, its like Tony Cliff over shitty beats.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 9 2006, 04:22 PM
Has anyone else here checked out the hip hop group Blue Scholars? They're the fucking best, hands down! I highly recommend everyone to get their CD, as it has both the best sound, and highest level of ideology I have ever come across in any music.

http://myspace.com/bluescholars

and

http://myspace.com/bluescholars2

Be sure to listen to Southside Revival and Commencement Day. My favorite song, "Life and Debt," isn't on there, but hit me up on AIM and I'd be more than happy to send it to you.
It's unfortunate that you can't download any of the songs on those links, i had a listen to 5 or so songs, pretty good stuff, thank you for posting them.

[Hampton]

The Long March EP is dope.

[ahab]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 10:26 PM
THE MODerN REvolutionary is in Hip Hop



BIO

Immortal Technique (born 31 March 1978) is a hip hop artist and political activist. He was born Felipe Coronel in Peru. In many of his songs, he references the strife of poverty in the slums of America and he points blame at politicians and social and economic injustice. He has also expressed unwavering support for Mumia Abu-Jamal and has received support from Abu-Jamal in return, featuring him and his speeches via tapes on one of his albums. His politically based rhymes deal with the wrongdoings of the government, the media, religion, and law enforcement. Although he has been offered a deal with at least one major label, he has yet to sign with any, because of disagreements they have over the political content of his songs, as well as Immortal Technique wanting to keep control over his production. He became involved in the business end of things after realizing that in the music business, it is the record companies who are making most of the money. He is currently President of Viper Records.


His Lyrics

I pledge no allegiance, fuck the President's speeches
What the industry did to 'Pac they did to Jesus
Rapin' his vocals and destroying his message
Tryin to deport us if they can't destroy arrest us
Government front religious, but thier heart is empty
Like a televangelist preaching out of his bentley
Calling abortion murder in a medical building
But don't give a fuck about bombing Iraqi children
Talking like units in the fucking libretto
Look at thier mansions and look at your suburban ghetto
The gulag, the new hood where they send us to live
Cause they don't give a fuck about none of our kids
That's why blacks and latinos get the worst education
While devils run america like "Birth of a Nation"
Affirmative action ain't reverse discrimination
That shit is a pathetic excuse for reparations.

They say that terrorism revolves around the Qu'ran
But that's stupid, I'll show you why its totally wrong
Cause if this country was invaded and crumbled
I'd turn Harlem into a columbian jungle
And I wouldn't be fighting for a Christian nation
I'd be fighting for survival from extermination
I wouldn't fight for Fox News, them racist niggaz
I'd be fightin for the hood, for the faceless niggaz
I'd be fighting for the immigrants america loves to despise
Even tho it needs them to make the economy rise
They feed us genetically modified garbage
So I repetitively reload the cartridge
Boston, New York, down to Atlanta
Guerilla war in the swamps of Louisiana
Camera panoramas of hammers couldn't rock me
East coast to West coast you can't stop me
And fuck Schwarzenegger, his pops was a nazi
And it runs in the family so run for the grammys
Run to the coon picnic and try to pick up a mammy
But half of y'all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny
Eddie Murphy ass motherfuckers goin commercial
Even Interscope is gettin pimped by Universal
{?} sounds like green tooth lantern something {?}
But the Bin Laden slush fund remix just worked you

Some Lyrics Were cut out

More On: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Technique
what is the name of this song?

[ahab]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 29 2006, 10:18 AM
Immortal Technique is a homophobic, sexist conspiracy nut-case, i'll take DP, Mr. Lif or Sun Rise Above over that fool any day. I voted 'other' for Lif and Sun RA as i didnt like DP's last album at all, and their lyrics are getting progressively more 'gansta' and less 'revolutionary', not RBG.
sexist? watch this Immortal technique (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AB4hyatmUo)

he's not homophobic or sexist

[bunk]

I think it's the song Bin Laden

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117) sexist? watch this Immortal technique[/b]

Yeah i dunno, that kind of 'woman on a pedestal'/we've got to protect 'the women' or 'what kind of fucking man are you' rhetoric is pretty classic paternalism.


Originally posted by [email protected]

he's not homophobic or sexist

So you just don't hear him when he says stuff like (from the lyrics in the topic post):


AfricanMilitant
But half of y'all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny

Not homophobic in the slightest...

[ahab]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 11 2006, 11:48 AM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 11 2006, 11:48 AM)
Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117) sexist? watch this Immortal technique[/b]

Yeah i dunno, that kind of 'woman on a pedestal'/we've got to protect 'the women' or 'what kind of fucking man are you' rhetoric is pretty classic paternalism.


[email protected]

he's not homophobic or sexist

So you just don't hear him when he says stuff like (from the lyrics in the topic post):


AfricanMilitant
But half of y'all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny

Not homophobic in the slightest... [/b]
i hear gay people say faggot, i hear non homophobic people say faggot, just cause you say that doesnt make you homophobic. Besides isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks?

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:26 AM
i hear gay people say faggot, i hear non homophobic people say faggot, just cause you say that doesnt make you homophobic.
denial at its very best <_< "i&#39;m not homophobic, i just use extremely derogatory insults towards gay men&#33;"


Besides isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks?

ha...ha...

[ahab]

Originally posted by rioters bloc+Jul 11 2006, 02:31 PM--> (rioters bloc @ Jul 11 2006, 02:31 PM)
[email protected] 12 2006, 12:26 AM
i hear gay people say faggot, i hear non homophobic people say faggot, just cause you say that doesnt make you homophobic.
denial at its very best <_< "i&#39;m not homophobic, i just use extremely derogatory insults towards gay men&#33;"


Besides isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks?

ha...ha... [/b]
hey man i dont say it cuz i kno if i was gay and someone shouted "faggot" out around me i would most likely take it offensively, I&#39;m just sayin just because someone says that doesnt automatically make them homophobic.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)
i hear gay people say faggot,[/b]

Yes - in such contexts it is being used to parody homophobia - that in no way makes it acceptable for heteros to use &#39;faggot&#39; as an insult, to queers or to anyone - not only is Immortal Technique not queer (he&#39;d probably be offended at the suggestion, since he is a &#39;real man&#39; :rolleyes:) , he is not using the term as a way to parody homophobic moron&#39;s - he&#39;s too busy being one.

If you can ignore homophobia, and appreciate his shit, then good for you, no reflection on your politics at all.



Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)
Besides isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks?[/b]

Are you being serious?

Do you think people actually use the term &#39;faggot&#39; or &#39;fag&#39; in that context on a daily basis? I&#39;d go as far as to say that the only time the word &#39;faggot&#39; is used in that context anymore is when people are talking about the etymology of the word.

And besides, it&#39;s very clear that Immortal Technique does not mean a &#39;bundle of sticks&#39; when he calls someone a faggot in his rhymes :angry:


[email protected]

hey man i dont say it cuz i kno if i was gay and someone shouted "faggot" out around me i would most likely take it offensively

So why are we even having this discussion? Yes, it is offensive (prejudiced/homophobic) when Immortal Technique uses &#39;faggot&#39; as an insult in his rhymes - and as leftists who purport to reject prejudiced crap like homophobia, i&#39;m not sure why you would so readily defend this moron.


fysh117

I&#39;m just sayin just because someone says that doesnt automatically make them homophobic.

So what does it make him? Pro-queer?

When do you regard someone as homophobic if not when they regularly call people &#39;fags&#39; or &#39;faggots&#39; as an insult, as if the suggestion that someone was queer is a gross insult?

[ahab]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 11 2006, 03:24 PM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 11 2006, 03:24 PM)
Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)
i hear gay people say faggot,[/b]

Yes - in such contexts it being used to pardody homophobia - that in no way makes it acceptable for heteros to use &#39;faggot&#39; as an insult, to queers or to anyone - not only is Immortal Technique not queer (he&#39;d probably be offended at the suggestion, since he is a &#39;real man&#39; :rolleyes:) , he is not using the term as a way to parody homophobic moron&#39;s - he&#39;s too busy being one.

If you can ignore homophobia, and appreciate his shit, then good for you, no reflection on your politics at all.



Originally posted by fysh117

Besides isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks?

Are you being serious?

Do you think people actually use the term &#39;faggot&#39; or &#39;fag&#39; in that context on a daily basis? I&#39;d go as far as to say that the only time the word &#39;faggot&#39; is used in that context anymore is when people are talking about the etymology of the word.

And besides, it&#39;s very clear that Immortal Technique does not mean a &#39;bundle of sticks&#39; when he calls some a faggot in his rhymes :rolleyes:


[email protected]

hey man i dont say it cuz i kno if i was gay and someone shouted "faggot" out around me i would most likely take it offensively

So why are we even having this discussion? Yes, it is offensive (prejudiced/homophobic) when Immortal Technique uses &#39;faggot&#39; as an insult in his rhymes - and as leftists who purport to reject prejudiced crap like homophobia, i&#39;m not sure why you would so readily defend this moron.


fysh117

I&#39;m just sayin just because someone says that doesnt automatically make them homophobic.

So what does it make him? Pro-queer?

When do you regard someone as homophobic if not when they regularly call people &#39;fags&#39; or &#39;faggots&#39; as an insult, as if the suggestion that someone was queer is a gross insult. [/b]
first off i asked the question "isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks" jokingly but seeing how it is we are talking on the internet it didnt come off that way, so just calm down.

Second, I use the word fag almost everyday because i refer to cigarettes that way, I also kno LOTS of other people who do too. Knowing whether or not the word faggot is being used in the context of being a bundle of sticks or not i do not know, but you are right in assuming it probably isnt.

Third i have been listening to Immortal Technique for about as long as this thread has been up, so excuse me for not knowing his entire political background, but from what I have read about him he is not sexist and not homophobic, he says that revolution is the blood that pumps his heart, figuratively speaking, I&#39;m pretty sure he means the revolution of the freedom of people around the world. Meaning all race and creed, no matter color, sexual preferance, gender whatever, has the right to be and believe what they want. So I&#39;m pretty sure in believing that, he is not homophobic.

Fourthly, I DO NOT support homophobia or any homophobic acts towards gays, they are just people with different views and that is fine, some religious or nazi&#39;s see homosexuality as a disease or something that is devloped over the years. I do not believe that, homosexuality has been around since the dawn of man, some people are just born liking their same sex and there is NOTHING wrong with that. I know that you already know this but i am just reitirating it so you know that i feel the same way. I do not feel that Immortal Technique is homophobic that is why I am somewhat defending him, if he is in fact homophobic i will apoligize for being on the side of a homophobic asshole and will accept any shit you want to throw at me, until he says himself, for if he was man enough he would admit it, i will continue to believe he is not. To assume something of someone just because of the way something might appear is wrong. Now you could be right and if you are I am sorry.

Fifth...ly, if he does say fag or faggot DIRECTLY towards homosexuals on a daily basis than i would be with you in saying he is in fact a homophobic asshole, but i have heard no such allogations towards him, so I am not believing that.


Now, i do not think an argument should break out over something like this so i have said my piece and explained my standpoint and you have yours any further comment i hope would be none derogatory and if you want to have a simple conversation, that would be much appreciated

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)first off i asked the question "isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks" jokingly but seeing how it is we are talking on the internet it didnt come off that way, so just calm down.[/b]

Fair enough, but please don&#39;t tell me to &#39;calm down&#39;.


Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)Second, I use the word fag almost everyday because i refer to cigarettes that way, I also kno LOTS of other people who do too. Knowing whether or not the word faggot is being used in the context of being a bundle of sticks or not i do not know, but you are right in assuming it probably isnt.[/b]

That is, i&#39;m sure you&#39;re aware, a completely different context that has nothing to do with what Immortal Technique does.


Originally posted by fysh117
Third i have been listening to Immortal Technique for about as long as this thread has been up, so excuse me for not knowing his entire political background, but from what I have read about him he is not sexist and not homophobic, he says that revolution is the blood that pumps his heart, figuratively speaking, I&#39;m pretty sure he means the revolution of the freedom of people around the world. Meaning all race and creed, no matter color, sexual preferance, gender whatever, has the right to be and believe what they want. So I&#39;m pretty sure in believing that, he is not homophobic.

I don&#39;t buy it.

Saying that you&#39;re a revolutionary doesn&#39;t gurantee that you&#39;ll be prejudice-free and have &#39;perfect politics&#39; - saying that you&#39;re revolutionary is very easy, but you have to back it up.

I don&#39;t think consistently using &#39;faggot&#39; in a derogatory context really backs up his revolutionary image, he&#39;s just another macho-revolutionary areshole. There&#39;s plenty of them out there, plenty of sexist &#39;revolutionaries&#39;, homophobic &#39;revolutionaries&#39; - we warn, restrict and ban them regularly on this site

You say that you&#39;re &#39;pretty sure&#39; he is not homophobic? but why?

Consistently calling people &#39;fags&#39; and &#39;faggots&#39; doesn&#39;t count as homophobia?

I don&#39;t get it, what do i have to say to change your mind?
That he bashes &#39;faggots&#39; in the streets?

Homophobia is not limited to physical violence, in fact verbal abuse is a lot more common and tolerated in society, and in the &#39;leftist movement&#39; - see the amount of people in this thread who list Immortal Technique as the rapper they most respect for &#39;For Lyrics of Knowledge&#39; - i mean, despite the fact that even in the lyrical sample given at the start of the thread there&#39;s this line trans/homophobic line (people just don&#39;t give a fuck),


Originally posted by Immortal Technique
&#39;But half of y&#39;all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny

And the kind of verbal abuse queers get frequently (in this context, moreso the abuse queer men get) is very similar to Tech&#39;s rhymes - macho-chauvinist crap, about &#39;manhood&#39; and &#39;real&#39; men, you&#39;re not a man you&#39;re a faggot.


Originally posted by fysh117

To assume something of someone just because of the way something might appear is wrong.

Why is that wrong?

It&#39;s better to judge him on what he actually does on a consistent basis (i.e. drop homophobic etc. shit in his lyrics - if he didnt endorse those views he wouldnt write and record em&#33;), than to assume the best of him for no other reason than he claims to be a revolutionary - since when did claiming revolutionary status become a &#39;free pass&#39; to use faggot as an insult? (&#39;It&#39;s okay, we know he&#39;s not homophobic, because he&#39;s a communist revolutionary&#39; - i don&#39;t get that attitude at all).


Originally posted by fysh117

Now you could be right and if you are I am sorry.

You don&#39;t have to apologise, you can listen to Immortal Technique if you want, i just don&#39;t like when people defend what is obvious homophobia.


[email protected]

Fifth...ly, if he does say fag or faggot DIRECTLY towards homosexuals on a daily basis than i would be with you in saying he is in fact a homophobic asshole, but i have heard no such allogations towards him, so I am not believing that.

I don&#39;t understand, are you saying that&#39;s it&#39;s only homophobic to use the term faggot as an insult if you&#39;re talking to someone who is actually queer?

Whilst it is obviously a different context, calling a hetero person a &#39;faggot&#39; as an insult is just as homophobic as calling someone who is actually queer a &#39;faggot&#39; - in both contexts you&#39;ve taken someones sexuality and suggested that it is insulting, that being queer is a negative thing - that is text-book homophobia.

Oh, and although i&#39;ve never met Immortal Technique in person, i can still be offended by his lyrics from the comfort of my own home&#33; He doesn&#39;t have to meet a queer person in the street to call them a faggot, he does it to me nearly everytime i hear one of his tracks (i&#39;ve just skipped one that came up on my playlist&#33;).

If people who like Immortal Technique were actually critical of him, i wouldnt really have a problem. The thing is, whenever stuff like this is brought up (same goes for other &#39;celebrities&#39;, musicians etc.) a lot of people tend to defend their idols, instead of just acknowledging the flaws in their politics.


fysh117
Now, i do not think an argument should break out over something like this so i have said my piece and explained my standpoint and you have yours any further comment i hope would be none derogatory and if you want to have a simple conversation, that would be much appreciated

I&#39;m not trying to have an argument with you, homophobia pisses me off.

[Vanguard1917]

I don&#39;t see why anyone likes Zearle, its like Tony Cliff over shitty beats.

:lol: No way, Tony Cliff had character...

I choose dead prez over Immortal Technique. Even though i only agree with about 25% of what they say, at least they don&#39;t sound like a confused kid with a chip on his shoulder.

Having said that, Peruvian Cocaine is a track and a half. Aside from that, i haven&#39;t heard anything by Tech that i can feel.

[ahab]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 11 2006, 04:15 PM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 11 2006, 04:15 PM)
Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)first off i asked the question "isnt a faggot a bundle of sticks" jokingly but seeing how it is we are talking on the internet it didnt come off that way, so just calm down.[/b]

Fair enough, but please don&#39;t tell me to &#39;calm down&#39;.


Originally posted by fysh117
Second, I use the word fag almost everyday because i refer to cigarettes that way, I also kno LOTS of other people who do too. Knowing whether or not the word faggot is being used in the context of being a bundle of sticks or not i do not know, but you are right in assuming it probably isnt.

That is, i&#39;m sure you&#39;re aware, a completely different context that has nothing to do with what Immortal Technique does.


Originally posted by fysh117
Third i have been listening to Immortal Technique for about as long as this thread has been up, so excuse me for not knowing his entire political background, but from what I have read about him he is not sexist and not homophobic, he says that revolution is the blood that pumps his heart, figuratively speaking, I&#39;m pretty sure he means the revolution of the freedom of people around the world. Meaning all race and creed, no matter color, sexual preferance, gender whatever, has the right to be and believe what they want. So I&#39;m pretty sure in believing that, he is not homophobic.

I don&#39;t buy it.

Saying that you&#39;re a revolutionary doesn&#39;t gurantee that you&#39;ll be prejudice-free and have &#39;perfect politics&#39; - saying that you&#39;re revolutionary is very easy, but you have to back it up.

I don&#39;t think consistently using &#39;faggot&#39; in a derogatory context really backs up his revolutionary image, he&#39;s just another macho-revolutionary areshole. There&#39;s plenty of them out there, plenty of sexist &#39;revolutionaries&#39;, homophobic &#39;revolutionaries&#39; - we warn, restrict and ban them regularly on this site

You say that you&#39;re &#39;pretty sure&#39; he is not homophobic? but why?

Consistently calling people &#39;fags&#39; and &#39;faggots&#39; doesn&#39;t count as homophobia?

I don&#39;t get it, what do i have to say to change your mind?
That he bashes &#39;faggots&#39; in the streets?

Homophobia is not limited to physical violence, in fact verbal abuse is a lot more common and tolerated in society, and in the &#39;leftist movement&#39; - see the amount of people in this thread who list Immortal Technique as the rapper they most respect for &#39;For Lyrics of Knowledge&#39; - i mean, despite the fact that even in the lyrical sample given at the start of the thread there&#39;s this line trans/homophobic line (people just don&#39;t give a fuck),


Originally posted by Immortal Technique
&#39;But half of y&#39;all are faggots tryin to pick up a tranny

And the kind of verbal abuse queers get frequently (in this context, moreso the abuse queer men get) is very similar to Tech&#39;s rhymes - macho-chauvinist crap, about &#39;manhood&#39; and &#39;real&#39; men, you&#39;re not a man you&#39;re a faggot.


Originally posted by fysh117

To assume something of someone just because of the way something might appear is wrong.

Why is that wrong?

It&#39;s better to judge him on what he actually does on a consistent basis (i.e. drop homophobic etc. shit in his lyrics - if he didnt endorse those views he wouldnt write and record em&#33;), than to assume the best of him for no other reason than he claims to be a revolutionary - since when did claiming revolutionary status become a &#39;free pass&#39; to use faggot as an insult? (It&#39;s okay, we know he&#39;s not homophobic, because he&#39;s a communist revolutionary).


Originally posted by fysh117

Now you could be right and if you are I am sorry.

You don&#39;t have to apologise, you can listen to Immortal Technique if you want, i just don&#39;t like when people defend what is obvious homophobia.


[email protected]

Fifth...ly, if he does say fag or faggot DIRECTLY towards homosexuals on a daily basis than i would be with you in saying he is in fact a homophobic asshole, but i have heard no such allogations towards him, so I am not believing that.

I don&#39;t understand, are you saying that&#39;s it&#39;s only homophobic to use the term faggot as an insult if you&#39;re talking to someone who is actually queer?

Whilst it is obviously a different context, calling a hetero person a &#39;faggot&#39; as an insult is just as homophobic as calling someone who is actually queer a &#39;faggot&#39; - in both contexts you&#39;ve taken someones sexuality and suggested that it is insulting, that being queer is a negative thing - that is text-book homophobia.

Oh, and although i&#39;ve never met Immortal Technique in person, i can still be offended by his lyrics from the comfort of my own home&#33; He doesn&#39;t have to meet a queer person in the street to call them a faggot, he does it to me nearly everytime i hear one of his tracks (i&#39;ve just skipped one that came up on my playlist&#33;).

If people who like Immortal Technique were actually critical of him, i wouldnt really have a problem. The thing is, whenever stuff like this is brought up (same goes for other &#39;celebrities&#39;, musicians etc.) a lot of people tend to defend their idols, instead of just acknowledging the flaws in their politics.


fysh117
Now, i do not think an argument should break out over something like this so i have said my piece and explained my standpoint and you have yours any further comment i hope would be none derogatory and if you want to have a simple conversation, that would be much appreciated

I&#39;m not trying to have an argument with you, homophobia pisses me off. [/b]
Ok I understand better now what you are saying. I tend to take things personally, like I thought you were reffering to me as homophobic for listening to him, and now i see that is not the case at all.

I say that I am &#39;pretty sure" because like I said before i have been listening to him for just a few days and haven&#39;t really looked into his politics. Constantly calling people fags and faggots is derogatory and wrong, but some people, Immortal technique included, have a &#39;thug&#39; image or whatever and he seems to be throwing that image off. Those types of people, from personal experience, say mean, offensive things all the time without actually meaning it. It does not justify the action, but I have a bit of understanding because I have been part of groups with both gay, bi and straight members and ALL of which said things like queer or faggot to other people without actually mening it deroagtory towards homosexuals, more just to offend the opposite person.

Again it IS wrong but some people just use it as a slang to insult someone who isnt homosexual without actually meaning it in a bad way towards homosexuals. I agree and do not condone the action, but some people just do it.

I also do not agree with the whole &#39;real&#39; man image, some of the toughest guys I&#39;ve ever known have been homosexual.

I say it is wrong to judge someone just because of the way something might appear is wrong because I think you have to get to know the person first, but as you say, and truly you do know more about this guy than I do, he uses it on a consistant basis, which could prove to be homophobia.

I am going to ask him and see if he replies. I will give you his answer.

[bunk]

I mean, white rapper
There&#39;s so many of us now
White people like rap now
Ah, ah, yeah

[Chorus] - 2X

Everyday, ghetto niggaz from my block
?
?

[R.A. in the background]
Slick Rick The Ruler, where&#39;s the vocals yo? Come in here
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Ah-ah-ah, check out this bizarre
Ayyo&#33; Ayyo&#33;

[R.A. Verse One]
Remember Slick Rick The Ruler, remember MC Shan used to wear Puma
Remember Masters of Ceremonies, Grand Pubah
Remember Daddy Kane Aids&#39; rumor
Yo, bring it back, yo
Yo, at the Roller Rinks, no skates on
Early 80s, girl chase on
Kurtis Blow ? the breaks on
Flavor Flav, Public Enemy clocks, boom box
EPMD made us proud that we was from Boondocks
Before Pubah, Steady B, Heavy D, Mouthburnin
Craig G, Shy rap version, TRUE SCHOOL
Rock Box, Run Dmc, true hip hop
Before Biggie and 2pac got shot, there was Scott La Rock
Before we even learned to make beats, we was in the basement
Freestylin&#39;, to 45 King breakbeats
But see, rap is corporate now
It&#39;s all about endorsments
So now the rich kids love it, so fuck them poor kids now&#33;

[Chorus] - 2X

I remember when the mainstream hated rap music
When James Brown samples was the new shit
I yelled BOX like Cool J on some Krush Groove shit
Dapper Dan shit, Ms. Pacman shit
That&#39;s when Rakim ran shit [Ran shit]
Before Sweet T was Sugar, before buddy piped a Jack Soopafly snooka
Before Biz Markie was busy pickin boogers
Super Lover Cee, L-y-t-e, Chill Rob G
Graffiti vandals, Jimmy Packer sex scandals
Videos, Ralph MacDaniels
Back when we didn&#39;t have the papered samples
Beasties, Chuck D, Busy Bee got ate up ? battle Kool Moe Dee
Chubb Rock hit the Grammys, Hitman Howie Tee, Doug E. Fresh, Chill Will, Barry B
BDP, Eazy E, PRT, Lakim Shabazz, Jaz, Jay-Z, Tragedy, QB

[Chorus] - 2X

Markie Fresh, The Mack of Rap, now the Fat Boys are back
X-Clan, ZOOM, pro black, Mr. Bozack
Where the hoes at, I&#39; ma go back
Before we had show DATs, no gats, no plaques
Happy Days, Fonzie and Posse
Bomb Squad, Hank Shocklee and Keith Shocklee
Ditc, Kool Keith, Ced Gee
Busy Boys, Realski
Milk D, Positive K, First Priority Posse
8th grade, parents on vacation, house makin plans
Spin the battle in the basement, fuck ?
Misbehavein, shootin pelletguns at Dunkin Donuts
Make the police go nuts
Used their nice sticks to chock us
Old School, do stay true, Rock Stedy Crew, Zulu
Cash Money, Marvellous, Funkmaster Flex
?, Kool G, Shante, Glamorous
Fresh Prince, Jazzy Jeff

[Chorus] - 2X

Simphony and Simphony 2
Main Source Live at the Barbeque
Nas and Akinyele debut
EZ Ice, Soulman
Def Squad, Hit Squad
2 Live Crew videos used to keep my dick hard (OINK&#33;)
Salt &#39;n Pepa ?, Potholes and Plug Tunin
Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin
Shut&#39; em down, Pete Rock producin
Just-Ice, Latoya
We had Marvin Hagler, fuck Oscar De La Hoya
Doin&#39; it, doin&#39; it too much
6th grade, I ate my first pussy
In the back of the school bus (Fadin&#39; into the chorus)

[Chorus] - 2X

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)Constantly calling people fags and faggots is derogatory and wrong, but some people, Immortal technique included, have a &#39;thug&#39; image or whatever and he seems to be throwing that image off. Those types of people, from personal experience, say mean, offensive things all the time without actually meaning it.[/b]

I agree that it&#39;s very much part of an image, there is a sexist-homophobic (they&#39;re linked) macho-sub culture in hip-hop, but it&#39;s not as if there arent artists who reject that kind of bullshit.

I still dont understand why you think he doesnt mean what he says? What do you think he means?


Originally posted by fysh117+--> (fysh117)
Again it IS wrong but some people just use it as a slang to insult someone who isnt homosexual without actually meaning it in a bad way towards homosexuals. I agree and do not condone the action, but some people just do it.[/b]

That&#39;s a different context, i was a member of a group called PHAG - which stood for Political Homos Action Group, using words like fag and queer both of which have been reclaimed to differing degrees by sections of the LGBTI community are not uncommon in queer circles, like nigga in the Black community - but this usage is clearly distinct from a white southerner yelling, &#39;you&#39;ll hang for this nigger&#33;&#39;

Or a hetero rapper, sayin stuff like:


Originally posted by Immortal Technique
So if I catch you bluffing, faggot, you less than nothing


Originally posted by Immortal Technique
Faggot, you&#39;re less than nothing I just had to get that stress off my chest like breast


Immortal [email protected]

why you trying to be hardcore, you fucking homo-thug
and don&#39;t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote
cuz if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke

------------------


fysh117
It does not justify the action, but I have a bit of understanding because I have been part of groups with both gay, bi and straight members and ALL of which said things like queer or faggot to other people without actually mening it deroagtory towards homosexuals, more just to offend the opposite person.
Again it IS wrong but some people just use it as a slang to insult someone who isnt homosexual without actually meaning it in a bad way towards homosexuals. I agree and do not condone the action, but some people just do it.

I understand, but as i said in my second post, the context here is different. I&#39;ve heard and myself have used words like fag and faggot to other queers and even to heterosexuals - but it&#39;s not as a serious insult, it&#39;s meant satirically, to parody homophobes, to point out just how stupid and nonsensical the whole concept is - and this is always clear to everyone involved in the exchange.

But when Tech uses homophobic language in his lyrics, a lot of the people who are listening dont even notice, they just accept it as part of the game - and they&#39;re right, Tech is just reproducing homophobic norms, sure is hell isn&#39;t challenging them.

But Tech is not queer, and nor is he using these words to parody homophobia, he&#39;s doing it because he&#39;s homophobic, or because he&#39;s trying to fit into a tough hip-hop image, which in many cases is the same thing.

There&#39;s a lot of homophobia in hip-hop - but then again there are revolutionary emcees who dont feel the need to drop a &#39;faggot&#39; in their rhymes - go and have a look on hip-hop boards, when people make an issue out of Tech&#39;s homophobic lyrics, they&#39;re usually denounced by Tech&#39;s fans as faggots :rolleyes:

And even if it&#39;s a part of his image, that&#39;s doesnt make it any better&#33;
He is still endorsing it, perpetuating it, normalising it - and that&#39;s the last thing hip-hop needs, more homophobic shit. If he actually cared about homophobia he wouldnt put it in his records or he&#39;d record an anti-homophobia song like &#39;when two men kiss&#39; by Oi Polloi.

We need to confront this kind of shit, not sweep it under the carpet or downplay it.

[ahab]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2006, 05:13 PM
And even if it&#39;s a part of his image, that&#39;s doesnt make it any better&#33;
He is still endorsing it, perpetuating it, normalising it - and that&#39;s the last thing hip-hop needs, more homophobic shit. If he actually cared about homophobia he wouldnt put it in his records or he&#39;d record an anti-homophobia song like &#39;when two men kiss&#39; by Oi Polloi.
I agree with what you say, especially here ^^ and after reading those other lyrics you quoted I am more convinced that he is homophobic, I wrote him a message but being a &#39;celebrity&#39; I doubt he will write me back. We will just have to wait and see I guess, I especially cant wait to hear what he says, if he responds, knowing these other things about him. If he says he isnt homophobic i will be surprised and ask him why he says those thngs in his lyrics, and if he does admit to being homophobic, well then that explains things lol

[Black Dagger]

I&#39;m interested in reading his reply as well, please post it if it comes :)

[ahab]

I will

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 9 2006, 04:20 PM
It&#39;s unfortunate that you can&#39;t download any of the songs on those links, i had a listen to 5 or so songs, pretty good stuff, thank you for posting them.
Posted.

Blue Scholars Rev Left Page (With MP3s) (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=52585)

[Viva Fidel&#33;&#33;]

Well here is my first post,

Immortal Technique doesn&#39;t use the word faggot to offend gay people. I&#39;ve been listening to Tech since the Revolutionary Vol.1 days, the only times i&#39;ve heard him use the word faggot is to offend straight "thugs". Most "gangster" cats now days take it to heart when they get called a faggot. Find me a song where Immortal Technique directly insults a gay individual by calling him a faggot and then we can talk. And don&#39;t give me these lines from Obnoxious.

Niggas don&#39;t show no love//
Why you trying to be hardcore you fuckin homo thug?//
And don&#39;t get sensitive and angry, towards the shit that I wrote//
Because if you can take a fuckin dick, you can take a joke//

What I see in those bars is Technique attempting to insult a "fake thug" by calling him a homo. And in the last bar he is getting back at you idiots that label him as homophobic/sexist by throwing in a joke that would piss you off.

[Nachie]

While we&#39;re looking at Tech&#39;s lyrics I think it&#39;s good to remember that he starts off "Crossing the Boundary" with these lines:


I never make songs to disrespect women
or to judge people about the way that they&#39;re living
but the way I am is based on the life I was given
like them white boys; +Losing My Religion+
His third album "The Middle Passage" is supposed to have been out by now, and everybody is waiting for it. I know for a fact that he&#39;s gotten a lot of criticism from anarchists and other groups about perceived homophobia in his lyrics and I can&#39;t imagine that he won&#39;t try to respond. What his response is going to be who knows, but I don&#39;t think he&#39;s going to be able to just ignore the issue on this next album. I wouldn&#39;t even be surprised if there&#39;s an entire song about it, so I&#39;m waiting to see what happens before I make any judgements. Then again it also wouldn&#39;t surprise me if he didn&#39;t give a flying fuck what groups perceived as predominantly white middle class have to say about his lyrics, regardless of if those groups are pro-queer or revolutionary.

Either way I&#39;ll say one thing about Immortal Technique: I&#39;d never crowd-surfed at a fuckin&#39; hip hop show before...

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by nachie+--> (nachie) While we&#39;re looking at Tech&#39;s lyrics I think it&#39;s good to remember that he starts off "Crossing the Boundary" with these lines:[/b]

Yeah, i dunno that reads like a bit of a cop-out from him - if he&#39;s aware that people have a problem with his lyrics and just says &#39;eh, that&#39;s just how i raised&#39; or &#39;that&#39;s just where i&#39;m coming from&#39; - whatever - that&#39;s really crap.


nachie
Then again it also wouldn&#39;t surprise me if he didn&#39;t give a flying fuck what groups perceived as predominantly white middle class have to say about his lyrics, regardless of if those groups are pro-queer or revolutionary.

Well if he wants to be an uncaring and ignorant prick then yeah, good stuff.

[Nachie]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 13 2006, 12:21 PM
Well if he wants to be an uncaring and ignorant prick then yeah, good stuff.
Not really, but I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll know for sure until The Middle Passage drops.

[Black Dagger]

I understand, i just hope he makes a fucking turn&#33; :D

It&#39;s like listenin&#39; to The Message by Grand Master Flash, sweet as... then... oh... that&#39;s kinda lame, why&#39;d he have to drop a &#39;faggot&#39; in there.

Though i like GMF lightyears more than Immortal Tech :P

edit: Thought of another one, &#39;I don&#39;t give a fuck&#39; by Tupac, the third last line whatever spoils for what is an otherwise pretty awesome track - it&#39;s so unecessary, and i cant help but have negative thoughts when i hear gay used in such a negative context - just makes me think of all the ignorant fools i have to confront in life.

[Nachie]

If you wanna talk about rampant homophobia totally ruining what was otherwise a sweet song, just look at Jedi Mind Tricks. I fucking loved that group and then slowly it seemed like they started saying faggot more and more. "Untitled" off of Violent by Design totally blows my mind, but right in the middle of the sweetest flows Vinnie Paz says "faggot" like twice&#33; By the time Reign of Blood came out, he was saying that word in like every fucking song, to the extent that there&#39;s no way he wasn&#39;t consciously going out of his way to be an asshat. Soooooo dissapointing :(

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 01:53 PM
If you wanna talk about rampant homophobia totally ruining what was otherwise a sweet song, just look at Jedi Mind Tricks. I fucking loved that group and then slowly it seemed like they started saying faggot more and more. "Untitled" off of Violent by Design totally blows my mind, but right in the middle of the sweetest flows Vinnie Paz says "faggot" like twice&#33; By the time Reign of Blood came out, he was saying that word in like every fucking song, to the extent that there&#39;s no way he wasn&#39;t consciously going out of his way to be an asshat. Soooooo dissapointing :(
Yep, Im a big fan of JMT (specially Stoupe)
They got great beats, tight flows, and they often touch on interesting subjects
But they often reiterate words like "fag" and "*****"
Which kinda turn u off
I still listen to them, but I try to skip over songs or parts which show their ignorance

Ras Kass has had some good, interesting, introspective songs, especially on his first album "Soul On Ice"
"Anything Goes" and "Ordo Abchao"
But nowadays, for one good song he makes 3 songs that are just terrible
He&#39;s still a great MC lyrics wise, but his subjects are stupid from my POV

Talib Kweli and Mos Def (Black Star) are pretty good IMO
Not as revolutionary as IT, but pretty socially and politically conscious
Anyone listen to them?

[Hampton]

Kass&#39; new mixtape "Revenge of the Spit" is pretty nice.

Mos turned me off with "The New Danger" though.

I hate Vinnie Paz, but the Army of the Pharaohs album was pretty nice.

Black Market Militia put out one of the best albums last year that was also political.

Reef the Lost Cauze is also up there.

[Viva Fidel&#33;&#33;]

I listen to Mos Def and Kweli, that blackstar album is a classic. Ras Kass is an ill emcee as well. Has anybody heard the track Bizness as Usual featuring Wrekonize? Its a good track....Oh and by the way he uses the word "fag" aimed at homosexuals (don&#39;t think much of you would like that). But thats just to show you the difference between calling a straight cat a faggot and calling an actual homosexual a faggot. If you are too lazy to download the song, then listen to it on wrekonize&#39;s myspace. www.myspace.com/wrekonize

[Body Count]

MIM interviewed Immortal Technique and called him out of his queer-bashing.

http://www.mimnotes.info/news/20050716immortaltechnique/ - Read the entire interview here.



MIM: OK, then, a secondary criticism we had in that review was your misogynist and homophobic language. This is nothing new, especially in male-dominated music scenes. But as revolutionaries we will continue to call this out until the day that we can actually overthrow the whole patriarchy that has injected these ideas into our daily language. What do you see as the role of women and homosexuals in the revolutionary struggle? How do you reconcile that with things you say on stage? Do you struggle with your use of language at all?

Tech:That was in one song, "Obnoxious," which was titled that way because it was meant to poke fun at everyone. But more importantly to weed out the people like you who have the self-righteous indignation to be offended by a word but not by the underlying theme of the actions the song was explained in the political undertones of that song. Listen to it again and separate every punch line from every single Revolutionary minded attack.

Our society has been trained to soften ourselves, to make us more feminine in the attempt to strip our men of any power base. Funny that a successful powerful black or Latino man in the street is unacceptable to America&#39;s propaganda machine (Hollywood), but a gay one isn&#39;t?&#33;? Something is wrong with that picture. And as for misogyny, I find that laughable. I am not perfect; I try to better my language to not say "*****" or "nigga" no more. I was born in the hood; I&#39;m not a kufi-wearing, never-cursing, turn-the-other-cheek bookworm poet nigga. I&#39;m a Harlem muthafucka. I had to keep it gangsta. I went to a good school but I didn&#39;t live with those kids, nor did they ever understand me or have to come home to a block with crack, coke, heroin, and idiocy in the streets. I tried to go to college but ended up locked up over some bullshit for a year, couldn&#39;t really get a job on the outside...So I started this hustle. I don&#39;t target people to be disrespect specifically, but if you get in my way I&#39;ll crush you, period. I did not start rapping to be the all-knowing oracle and dictator of a Revolution, but more to prepare the way for the one that will come after me. To serve my people and die, that is who I am, the spirit of the fight. When I am gone I will truly be Immortal because when you&#39;re up against the odds I&#39;ll be there with you.

MIM: Have you ever battled a female or male MC who has broken the macho mold and called you out on the things you say?

Tech: Battling women is tricky, if you are too light they will call you a faggot, or a pussy and people will just mock you; I seen it happen. But if you go too rough, girls get offended and they boo, and niggaz act like you shouldn&#39;t have said that, you lose. I never took it easy on anyone I battled, ever. I destroyed men, women, kids, I didn&#39;t give a fuck. I have been so brutal to girls I battled, that niggaz lost they minds and went out of control. But remarkably the one time I lost to a girl when I was just so mean that people got mad at me, I found the most understanding and self-growth in that. There is no macho "mold" in me. I was born a man and I don&#39;t act like anything but that. I have come to understand that people who are creative are naturally more sensitive, rappers are in fact very sensitive people. The more creative and gifted, the more sensitive. In recognizing that, I have addressed that to myself and been able to make myself stronger and more accepting of criticism in that it exists and has much of a less effect on me. I have strengthened my mind, body and soul. If someone were to "call me out" on anything, I would find a hole in their argument, exploit it, and retaliate accordingly. People have tried what you say many times, to call me out and all failed...miserably. Battling was a good time in my life, I got a ton of anger out doing that, but it was too one-dimensional for me; it became predictable. As an MC it is only one aspect, it doesn&#39;t complete you and therefore did not become my main focus, this did.

MIM: I was referring to the macho mold that even female MC&#39;s seem to feel that they must fit into. To claim that you do not have that same influence on you as a man in this society I think ignores the reality of the power structure again. Just as the white nation has power over oppressed people under imperialism, men have power over wimmin under the patriarchy. And this power is reinforced through culture and gender roles that we are taught from a young age. Calling people &#39;*****&#39;, &#39;faggot&#39; or &#39;nigger&#39; is not the source of oppression; that is why I stress the power structure behind humyn relations. But using these terms in a lot of contexts, with negative connotations, only reinforces those ideas in the minds of the masses.

While I know you&#39;re not one to bite your tongue, you said you do struggle over using certain language that&#39;s been passed down to us by the oppressors. Do you see a future where talking like that will be something that will get you into a lot of trouble?

Tech: Whatever comes will come whether I want it to or not. I am secure in the fact that when I have to go I will be ready, I am not afraid to see God. I have a lot of questions for it.

[Nachie]

Dodgy answers <_<

He specifically avoided "What do you see as the role of women and homosexuals in the revolutionary struggle?"

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Tech
Our society has been trained to soften ourselves, to make us more feminine in the attempt to strip our men of any power base. Funny that a successful powerful black or Latino man in the street is unacceptable to America&#39;s propaganda machine (Hollywood), but a gay one isn&#39;t?&#33;?

Right... when asked about &#39;homosexuals&#39; he responds with some rambling about how society is trying to make men &#39;feminine&#39; and &#39;strip our men of any power base&#39; (WTF does that mean?&#33;&#33;)- That interview has only reinforced my feeling that he is a homophobe and something of a chauvinist.

[Led Zeppelin]

I was wondering what CDL&#39;s opinion of 2pac is, I remember he said a long time ago that he dislikes him, but now that I found out you&#39;re a rapper yourself, don&#39;t you have some respect for him as an artist?

[Solitary Mind]

Well im a rapper too and dont have alot of respect for tupac because he was a gimmick, he was never really a gangster, his own mom says so, and his music wasn&#39;t all that good besides a few good songs. and he supported gang violence and thug life, something he didn&#39;t live. 2pac was fake and his music highly overrated, all i have to say about that.

[Black Dagger]

So what&#39;s going on people?

We&#39;ve got 19 votes for Immortal Technique (42%) of the vote, any of the Tech fans wanna speak up on what they think about the sexism and homophobia in his music?

Does it bother you at all?

[CoexisT]

I voted for Dead Prez because I haven&#39;t listened to/heard of the other two.

[Solitary Mind]

i would speak up for Technique. he isnt either, but the way he was raised it became a part of his vocabulary the same way that even homosexuals will refer to things as "gay" and people as "faggots". and as for Sexism, he at concerts and in his music talks about defending and respecting women, but states that if a woman won&#39;t respect herself, she should&#39;nt exepct nobody else (in the song No me importa) and states how he wants a decent woman, an intelligent woman and so on, the things in his music just are part of his vocabulary and has said that he tries to cut down on it but he was raised where he was, and nobody should get offended because in this day in age homosexuals use the terms he&#39;s using, women use the terms he&#39;s using, i see people here like Rass Kass who uses openly homophopic lyrics in a song he did with Wrekonize , just one example is the line "legalize marriageal fags". Immortal Technique also says that the song obnoxious was written for a reason, and people who get offended are one of those reasons, you shouldn&#39;t be so offended by his lyrics, he means nothing by them and like i said, at concerts makes sure people understand this or speaks about inequality when it comes to those subjects

[Invader Zim]

I suspect that the use of such unflattering terminology is a reflection of the economically underprivileged culture and society in which hip-hop has originated, rather than a reflection of deep seated personal issues with homosexuals and women.

[CoexisT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 08:21 PM
I suspect that the use of such unflattering terminology is a reflection of the economically underprivileged culture and society in which hip-hop has originated, rather than a reflection of deep seated personal issues with homosexuals and women.
Thought I haven&#39;t listened to any of his music, this seems plausible.

[CoexisT]

Have any of you guys listened to any music by "Sole"? I just listened to a track from "Life from Rome" and it was pretty interesting.

[Solitary Mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 08:21 PM
I suspect that the use of such unflattering terminology is a reflection of the economically underprivileged culture and society in which hip-hop has originated, rather than a reflection of deep seated personal issues with homosexuals and women.
Exactly

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 08:21 PM
I suspect that the use of such unflattering terminology is a reflection of the economically underprivileged culture and society in which hip-hop has originated, rather than a reflection of deep seated personal issues with homosexuals and women.
Although this may be the case, there is still no excuse for him to proliferate such demeaning language towards homosexuals, women, or whatever he&#39;s angry at on a particular song

Being underpriviliged does not give u the right to pass judgement and insult others with such discriminating terms
I grew up with friends who used language that is common in urban America
Therefore, I can understand why he&#39;d use a word like "nigga"
But "fag" I cannot understand because you don&#39;t use that type of language unless u truly dislike or ridicule homosexuals
I don&#39;t know whether he dislikes homosexuals or not, but if he&#39;s anything like the ppl who grow up in the tough neighborhoods of urban America, his use of such language does not reflect positively upon his image as a revolutionary and socially conscious MC

The mere fact that he uses "fag" to insult others indicates that he believes that being homosexual is some sort of weakness or issue
Because if he didn&#39;t, he wouldn&#39;t use it to ridicule or dismiss other rappers
When u insult someone u use demeaning words that u believe are a weakness or are foul, that fit the person&#39;s character, and will hurt him
Therefore, he must believe that being homosexual is some type of disibility or joke
U wouldn&#39;t use a word if u didn&#39;t think it was offensive

In addition, he has often said that he wishes to seperate himself from mainstream hip hop artists which rap about the usual garbage i.e. money, bling, "*****es," gangs
Therefore, if he really wanted to make a significant stand in the industry, he&#39;d avoid using the terms that his mainstream counterparts use on a regular basis, in his music

Jus my .2

[CoexisT]

I just downloaded a torrent with 7 CD&#39;s of Immortal Technique and some other freestyle/battle stuff. I just listened to one of the freestyles, and I heard:


"I&#39;ll fuck your *****, whether she like it or not."

Then he goes on to talk about all this stuff he&#39;d do to this girl "like Kobe [Bryant]."


Some of his music is really good, but then other songs are the total opposite.

[Solitary Mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:44 PM
I just downloaded a torrent with 7 CD&#39;s of Immortal Technique and some other freestyle/battle stuff. I just listened to one of the freestyles, and I heard:


"I&#39;ll fuck your *****, whether she like it or not."

Then he goes on to talk about all this stuff he&#39;d do to this girl "like Kobe [Bryant]."


Some of his music is really good, but then other songs are the total opposite.
its a battle, the purpose is to produce punchlines, which he did

[Hampton]

That was a good line by the way despite the obvious.

[ZACKist]

The fact that he appears to believe in a supernatural being (amongst all the other shit) turns me off to him, ImTech, that is.

My vote: The Fucking Coup.

[ZACKist]

Originally posted by Tekun+Jul 22 2006, 01:04 AM--> (Tekun &#064; Jul 22 2006, 01:04 AM)I grew up with friends who used language that is common in urban America
Therefore, I can understand why he&#39;d use a word like "nigga"
But "fag" I cannot understand[/b]
Why?

The way I see it, they&#39;re both words that were originally used to fuel hatered and inequality. Something from the Views on Socialism and Communism (http://rwor.org/a/040/avakian-views-on-communism-pt3.htm) speech by BA that I think gets at something important...


Avakian
Or take another example that is a big phenomenon, and big point of contention, in the culture and more generally these days. Some people, and in particular some Black people, say "I will define the word ‘nigger’ so that now it means ‘my friend, my partner.’" No. It means something else. You don&#39;t have the ability to define it that way because, just like a bullet, this has been historically and socially defined in a certain way and you can&#39;t change that meaning by a mere act of your will or desire to have it mean something else. Many years from now, when humanity has long since moved beyond the kind of society where oppression of whole peoples exists, along with other forms of oppression and exploitation, maybe then that word ("nigger") will have absolutely no meaning, or might mean something entirely different. But right now, at this stage of history we&#39;re in, with the world the way it is, its meaning has been and is still defined by the historically established oppressive social relations of which the word "nigger" is an expression. And if you&#39;re going to deal with what it means and everything that&#39;s behind that word, you have to confront it as it actually is, according to that historically and socially established meaning—until we have radically transformed those social relations of which it is an expression.

I also really like The Coup song, I Ain&#39;t the Nigga:


(Big Bird)
Now I shall tell a story that&#39;s filled with words
that start with the letter N

(DJ Pam cuts up "Fly lyrics from the bank of reality" --&#62; Flavor Flav)

[Boots]
Step into the world of a nigger, figure
to stay a little while so pack your bag up bigger
First of all just let me introduce you seduce you
into a frame of mind that&#39;s easy to get used to
Nigger hasn&#39;t always meant a man with melanin
It used to be a piece of wood that sat on the cotton gin
Masta put it there and it wouldn&#39;t move, smooth
So what does it mean, to be a Nigger With an Attitude?
You tell me that a nigger&#39;s crazy or lazy
Not about the skin so, don&#39;t let it faze me
Well you amaze me, with that ignorant bizull-shizzit
Get a grip on the new fit
Cause that&#39;s a lame frame of brain for the nineties
I know the game so it don&#39;t sting, my mind sees
So what the fuck you wanna race for the trigger
I ain&#39;t the one, I ain&#39;t the nigga

"If I&#39;m a slave, I&#39;m a slave to the rhythm" --&#62; Big Daddy Kane
"You know that I ain&#39;t the nigga" --&#62; Ice Cube
(repeat 4X)

(DJ Pam cuts up "Niggers, love everything but themselves" --&#62; Last Poets)

[E-Roc]
Nigger is a word we use today, you say
It don&#39;t mean the same if you spell it with an A
But that&#39;s an argument that makes me itch, I twitch
If I took the T out will I still mean *****?
My name is E-Roc, and I ain&#39;t the nigger main
Save your sellout strut shit for Soul Train
Cause I&#39;ve been known, to knock a motherfucker out
Without a doubt, The Coup gives me much clout
But there&#39;s a factor when I know that my skin is brown
And never ever will I put another brother down (gawwwd damn)
So I make the mental rule to massacre the word
Cause when I hear it, it gets, me straight stirred
It&#39;s mental trash so I&#39;m pickin up the litter
I ain&#39;t the one and I ain&#39;t, the nigger
My people use this word each and every day
You see a nigger, slap a nigger, that&#39;s what I say

"If I&#39;m a slave, I&#39;m a slave to the rhythm" --&#62; Big Daddy Kane
"You know that I ain&#39;t the nigga" --&#62; Ice Cube
(repeat 4X)

(DJ Pam cuts up "Niggers, love everything but themselves" --&#62; Last Poets)

"Boy I love playing the drums, I can do the grooviest rhythms
I can do rhythms like.."

[Boots]
My attitude is this (what?) don&#39;t call yourself a niggerole (why?)
Unless you&#39;re just an oakie-doke it&#39;ll make you sicker though
Cause it&#39;s all about a mind-time mind-frame
The system is a chess game with, pawns all the same (haa haa)
Until we change our mind to ?
Identify yourself, it&#39;s a part of being concious (yeah)
If I call myself a gangster then I&#39;ll rob you with a gat (yeah)
If I call myself a brother then you know I got your back (yeah)
If I call myself oppressed then I&#39;m clear on where I&#39;m at
But if I call myself a nigger what the fuck is that? (yeah, you know)
Don&#39;t be the coolie or the moolie or a boob with the jigger
Don&#39;t be the one... don&#39;t be the nigga

"If I&#39;m a slave, I&#39;m a slave to the rhythm" --&#62; Big Daddy Kane
"You know that I ain&#39;t the nigga" --&#62; Ice Cube

[Hampton]

No. It means something else. You don&#39;t have the ability to define it that way because, just like a bullet, this has been historically and socially defined in a certain way and you can&#39;t change that meaning by a mere act of your will or desire to have it mean something else.

Says Avakian from his bomb shelter. He wouldn&#39;t know or couldn&#39;t get it.

[ZACKist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 06:11 PM

No. It means something else. You don&#39;t have the ability to define it that way because, just like a bullet, this has been historically and socially defined in a certain way and you can&#39;t change that meaning by a mere act of your will or desire to have it mean something else.

Says Avakian from his bomb shelter. He wouldn&#39;t know or couldn&#39;t get it.
What a baseless and asinine thing to proport.

[Eastside Revolt]

Out of the 3 options Dead prez is by for my favorite. Although they do get on my nerves a little with the outright racism towards any white person.

[Hampton]

What a baseless and asinine thing to proport.

I would say the same thing about Chairman Bob. Tho those who have been called the name and can understand the weight that it carries, using the word in a posative manner is possible, despite what he says. I have never used the excuse of "you have to be a certain color to understand", but I think this is an instance where this is true. Those who use is in a posative manner can "take the word back" and I think that it is being done today. Many have said that the word is used to much that it has lost its meaning so much in fact that white suburban kids call each other "niggas", not because them emulate rappers, which they also do, but because the word to a certain degree does not have the same stigma which it once did. If that were the case, which in fact it might be, than that is a good thing. For although people misusing the word by the white populace to show affection of themselves is not right, it is a hell of a lot better than them calling blacks and latios niggers. The word has been confronted and assembled and disassembled many times over, enough so much that those who have been called that name can now turn it into a posative.

Chairman Bob doesn&#39;t see this, and neither do you.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by ZACKist+Jul 23 2006, 05:23 AM--> (ZACKist &#064; Jul 23 2006, 05:23 AM)
[email protected] 22 2006, 01:04 AM
I grew up with friends who used language that is common in urban America
Therefore, I can understand why he&#39;d use a word like "nigga"
But "fag" I cannot understand
Why?

The way I see it, they&#39;re both words that were originally used to fuel hatered and inequality. Something from the Views on Socialism and Communism (http://rwor.org/a/040/avakian-views-on-communism-pt3.htm) speech by BA that I think gets at something important...

[/b]
What I am referring to is the reocurrence of the use of that word by young AfroAmericans in the urban city
However, since I am a latino and do not use the word, my analysis and defence of its meaning and use has no validity
I grew up where many of my friends used the word "nigga" when referring to our other black friends, yet "fag" was not part of the lingo
Therefore, I can&#39;t relate with IT&#39;s use of the word to demean other rappers

I understand your position
I don&#39;t use the word personally, but since many AfroAmericans have made the argument that they use it to empower themselves, I don&#39;t make it my business to correct them
Im Latino, and I can&#39;t relate with the word and its various meanings, therefore I think I am in no position to judge whether the word has a positive or negative meaning and effect
The same goes for Bob Avakian...a person who I don&#39;t align myself with, therefore I do not care much for his views

However, "fag" is a word that has not been used to empower others
Rather, it has been used to ridicule and humiliate homosexual men
There are no claims or experiences which prove otherwise that have been made known or that have been widely debated
It has always been used as an insult, and therefore I don&#39;t understand why a self described "revolutionary MC" would perpetuate such a discriminating word

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Solitary Mind+--> (Solitary Mind)i would speak up for Technique. he isnt either, but the way he was raised it became a part of his vocabulary the same way that even homosexuals will refer to things as "gay" and people as "faggots"[/b]

I&#39;m sorry but that is quite clearly cop-out bullshit, and not only is it a bullshit cop-out, &#39;hey this is how all real people talk you faggot&#33;&#39; - the second part of what you said makes no fucking sense.

A queer person using the term &#39;gay&#39; or &#39;faggot&#39; is quite obviously not the same as a hetero person using the same terms, there is no ambiguity as to whether the former is homophobic. Moreover, many queer people use words like faggot in a satircal, parodying manner, it&#39;s a joke, we&#39;re laughing at people at bigoted morons like Immortal Technique who use the words seriously, or because &#39;they were raised that way&#39; (read: i really dont give a fuck about faggots coz they dont buy my music). Shit, my parents are racist fuck-wits, can i cash in my &#39;i&#39;m allowed to be racist&#39; card? You sound like a nigger&#33; :rolleyes:



Originally posted by Solitary Mind+--> (Solitary Mind)
and as for Sexism, he at concerts and in his music talks about defending and respecting women, [/b]

Exactly, he&#39;s a partriarchal, sexist. His form of &#39;respect&#39; is typical patronising macho crap, i &#39;respect&#39; wom*n by opening the door for em, and talking sweet to em when i want to get laid, afterwards, &#39;yeah i fucked that *****&#39;. He&#39;s about &#39;real&#39; men, a real man is one who stands up and defends his (emphasis on property) wom*n, coz you know wom*n need a guy to hold their hand or they might get hurt.


Originally posted by Solitary Mind

but states that if a woman won&#39;t respect herself, she should&#39;nt exepct nobody else (in the song No me importa) and states how he wants a decent woman, an intelligent woman and so on,

What kind of reactionary sexist shit is this?

How exactly does a wom*n not &#39;respect herself&#39;? Like if a wom*n wants have sex with whoever they want? Or have multiple partners she&#39;s disrespecting herself?

It&#39;s okay to be sexist as long you&#39;re talking about &#39;sluts&#39; and &#39;hos&#39;? Coz they dont respect themselves anyway? That is exactly what Tech is about, that&#39;s completely paternalistic and patriarchal.


Originally posted by Solitary Mind

the things in his music just are part of his vocabulary and has said that he tries to cut down on it but he was raised where he was,

Bullshit he does, how many songs is it gonna take till he stops calling suckas faggots and shit? Yo fuck you faggot&#33; You aint nothing but a faggot punk&#33; Oh, sorry, i&#39;m working on that, sorry :blush:


Originally posted by Solitary Mind

and nobody should get offended because in this day in age homosexuals use the terms he&#39;s using,

:lol:

So im not allowed to get offended when some macho hetero rapper calls me a faggot? Coz queers use the term too? I spose it&#39;s open season on nigger now too? I mean, plenty of Black people use the term, can i just drop the n-word whenever i want now? What if i offend some people? Are they just being sensitive?

The difference which somehow you dont seem to appreciate, is that the context in which faggot is being used is completely different. If one of my friends calls me a faggot it&#39;s a fucking joke, we&#39;re laughing at bigotry, it&#39;s a parody, Tech maybe a caricature of a thug, but that doesnt excuse him for being as ignorant and homophobic as one.


Originally posted by Solitary Mind

women use the terms he&#39;s using,

Again, you&#39;re being serious?

Wom*n use sexist terms, so that just gives men free-range to say whatever sexist shit they want? :wacko:


Originally posted by Solitary Mind
]
i see people here like Rass Kass who uses openly homophopic lyrics in a song he did with Wrekonize , just one example is the line "legalize marriageal fags".

Eh, Tech is openly homophobic in his lyrics too, what&#39;s your point? There&#39;s other people who are worse? That doesnt really help Tech&#39;s defence case.


Originally posted by Solitary Mind

Immortal Technique also says that the song obnoxious was written for a reason, and people who get offended are one of those reasons, you shouldn&#39;t be so offended by his lyrics, he means nothing by them and like i said, at concerts makes sure people understand this or speaks about inequality when it comes to those subjects

Okay, so as long as you maintain this facade of being a &#39;revolutionary&#39; you can say whatever the fuck you want? And if people get offended by you call em faggots or *****es they&#39;re the ones with the problem, and not you? Queers and wom*n are just being sensitive when Tech disses someone for being a faggot or talks about some *****? Please, where does it end?


[email protected]

I suspect that the use of such unflattering terminology is a reflection of the economically underprivileged culture and society in which hip-hop has originated, rather than a reflection of deep seated personal issues with homosexuals and women.

Urgh not this again,

Working class people are just all homophobic sexists yeah? They just dont know any better?

You reckon all the working class queers talk like Tech?

Seriously, what&#39;s it gonna take for you?

What?

When does homophobia become homophobia, legit prejudice, and not just an icky habit?

Did you read the interview that was posted in this thread?

When asked:

What do you see as the role of women and homosexuals in the revolutionary struggle? How do you reconcile that with things you say on stage? Do you struggle with your use of language at all?


Tech
Our society has been trained to soften ourselves, to make us more feminine in the attempt to strip our men of any power base. Funny that a successful powerful black or Latino man in the street is unacceptable to America&#39;s propaganda machine (Hollywood), but a gay one isn&#39;t?&#33;?

Feminine? Stripping &#39;our&#39; men of &#39;any power base&#39;?

Also notice how he completely dodges answering the question? Way to clear it up after all the controversy Tech&#33;


You&#39;re seriously deluded if you can&#39;t see the sexism and homophobic in tech&#39;s lyrics and comments (like above), perhaps willfully ignorant?

[Invader Zim]

If you disagree with my suggestion, then you may want to actually provide some kind of plausable alternative. You claim to be a materialist, well here are some objective material facts: -

Homophobic and sexist language is commonplace throughout many hiphop lyrics.

Hiphop is a genre of music which developed in economically underprivileged culture and society.




So you tell me the &#39;answer&#39;, or quit being a patronising tosser.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Enigma+Jul 25 2006, 01:23 AM--> (Enigma &#064; Jul 25 2006, 01:23 AM) If you disagree with my suggestion, then you may want to actually provide some kind of plausable alternative. You claim to be a materialist, well here are some objective material facts: -

Homophobic and sexist language is commonplace throughout many hiphop lyrics.

Hiphop is a genre of music which developed in economically underprivileged culture and society.



So you tell me the &#39;answer&#39;, or quit being a patronising wanker. [/b]

Umm, the alternative is that Tech is actually sexist and homophobic, i thought that that was pretty clear.


Originally posted by Immortal [email protected]

But you know what the fuck I think is just pathetic and gay
When niggaz speculate what the fuck &#39;Pac would say
You don&#39;t know shit, about a dead mans perspective
And talking shit will get your neck bone disconnected
Disrespected niggaz don&#39;t show no love
Why you trying to be hardcore, you fucking homo-thug
And don&#39;t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote
Cuz if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke


My post was attacking the idea (that both you and Solitary Mind put forward) that somehow being working class made you inherently sexist and homophobic (anti-WC bullshit if i ever saw it) and thus, if someone from a WC background does uses a lot of sexist and homophobic language (i.e. Tech) it&#39;s just because they&#39;re WC and of course has nothing to do with their actual views, they&#39;re just talking how WC people do :unsure:

As for counter-evidence?

Like i said in my last post,

Have you heard any queer WC kids talk?

Not all WC people talk like Tech, and neither do all hip-hop artists, particularly the more political artists, like Tech is supposed to be (am i meant to make a big list of these for you or something?) - im assuming this is because they &#39;get&#39; that sounding like a patriarchal homophobic tosser doesnt really mesh well with having a progressive political consciousness.

How much hiphop do you listen to?

Immortal Tech is more homophobic (and just as sexist) as any mainstream hip-hop artist - who these days are rarely explicitly homophobic in their lyrics, less so in the early 90s, which is sad because first he&#39;s meant to be an underground artist, the kinda people who are opposed to and challenge the bullshit in main-stream hip-pocracy, and an underground political artist at that, so he&#39;s meant to be progressive as well.

Other people can pull this off, why does Tech get a special exception from criticism?



Enigma

So you tell me the &#39;answer&#39;, or quit being a patronising wanker.

My last post was &#39;the answer&#39;, im just repeating myself now.

[KC]

Out of the 3 options Dead prez is by for my favorite. Although they do get on my nerves a little with the outright racism towards any white person.

How the fuck are they racist towards "any white person"?

[Invader Zim]

Umm, the alternative is that Tech is actually sexist and homophobic, i thought that that was pretty clear.

Perhaps he is, but would you say that a large number of hiphop artists are sexist and homophobic? After all the genre is rife, especially a lot of US hip-hop with main stream success (well certainly a lot of the US material which achieves any success in the UK, while ironically a lot of the UK artists avoid a lot of it), with homophobic and sexist language.

As culture is a reflection on society, not the other way round, then how do you account for that? Or is it you who is saying "Working class people are just all homophobic sexists. They just dont know any better.", because that is in effect what you are saying, because like I already said you have failed to provide any explaination for this trend.


that somehow being working class made you inherently sexist and homophobic

Well, i don&#39;t argue that, i argue that though they use such language they use the language in an evolved form. For example clearly hetrosexual individuals even inanimate objects are described using homophobic language. This would suggest that homophobic expressions have simply come to mean &#39;bad&#39; or &#39;inferior&#39; and have lost their origional contextual and literal meanings. I&#39;m not saying that is right or it does not directly promote homophobia, but I doubt that it is the intention.


and neither do all hip-hop artists, particularly the more political artists, like Tech is supposed to be

I hope you are joking&#33; Even remotely successful progressive rappers like Sage Francis are few and far between and certainly are not &#39;popular&#39; nor do they represent a realistic reflection of the genre in general, they don&#39;t call stuff which has not reached a wide audience &#39;underground&#39; for shits and giggles. But even if the majority of artists do not, there is certainly a much greater element of such language being used than in other genres. For example you are not likely to hear Blur, (nor any others of their ilk) proclaiming about women: -

"I&#39;m a call you a ***** or dirty-ass ho"

This is because the genres have different influences and its artists come from completely different back grounds and never had to grow up in an American ghetto in a racist society which seeks to alienate different ethnic groups.

Not to mention that hip-hop does not reflect the working class in general. For example gangsta rappers from American cities do not reflect the attitudes of working class people living small UK cities or even with different US cities. For example I doubt Immortal Technique has anything in common with Roots Manuva. To suggest what you are suggesting lacks depth and creates an utterly two dimentional perspective.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)Perhaps he is,[/b]

Okay, so you&#39;ve gone from saying that you &#39;suspect that tech isnt sexist or homophobic&#39; to saying that &#39;perhaps he is&#39;? Well at least we&#39;re getting somewhere.


Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)
but would you say that a large number of hiphop artists are sexist and homophobic?[/b]

This is irrelevant to whether or not Tech&#39;s and his lyrics are sexist and homophobic, dont sidetrack the discussion. He is or he isn&#39;t, that more or less people have similar views or lyrics does not make Tech&#39;s lyrics more or less homophobic or sexist.


Originally posted by enigma

After all the genre is rife, especially a lot of US hip-hop with main stream success (well certainly a lot of the US material which achieves any success in the UK, while ironically a lot of the UK artists avoid a lot of it), with homophobic and sexist language.

Actually, (as i said in my last post) main-stream hip-hop is actually less explictly homophobic than Tech, and id say probably equally sexist.


Originally posted by enigma

As culture is a reflection on society, not the other way round, then how do you account for that?

Account for what? Talking about &#39;societal&#39; trends is talking AROUND the issue, address Tech or dont bother replying.


Originally posted by enigma

Or is it you who is saying "Working class people are just all homophobic sexists. They just dont know any better.", because that is in effect what you are saying, because like I already said you have failed to provide any explaination for this trend.

What are you talking about?

How on earth are you justfying that spin? Please, i want you to lay down how exactly you&#39;ve managed to turn your own anti-WC prejudice on to me :rolleyes:

What i&#39;m in effect saying is that Tech is a sexist homophobe (something ive been painfully clear on in three posts now), why do i have to keep restating this?

Tech:

But you know what the fuck I think is just pathetic and gay
When niggaz speculate what the fuck &#39;Pac would say
You don&#39;t know shit, about a dead mans perspective
And talking shit will get your neck bone disconnected
Disrespected niggaz don&#39;t show no love
Why you trying to be hardcore, you fucking homo-thug
And don&#39;t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote
Cuz if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke

How is that not homophobic? And no, it doesnt matter if homophobic or sexist lyrics are common in hip-hop, nor that sexism and homophobia is common in society generally - otherwise EVERYONE could use that as a cop-out, any time they wanted, if he&#39;s perpetuating a norm he&#39;s perpetuating a norm, that it&#39;s a norm doesnt negate that&#39;s he&#39;s perpetuating it.


Originally posted by enigma

Well, i don&#39;t argue that, i argue that though they use such language they use the language in an evolved form.

Okay, so now you&#39;re saying because casual homophobia is so common its no longer homophobic to use homophobic language? :wacko:

Your &#39;argument&#39; also ignores that&#39;s not just the words that tech uses but how he uses them, the context, the line, it&#39;s not just that he uses the word &#39;faggot&#39; it&#39;s that he uses that word in a line which has an explicitly homophobic meaning i.e. (as above)

Why you trying to be hardcore, you fucking homo-thug
And don&#39;t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote
Cuz if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke


Originally posted by enigma

For example clearly hetrosexual individuals even inanimate objects are described using homophobic language.

Im sorry but this just offensive. Why should any wom*n or queer have to put up with prejudice or prejudiced language just because heteros or men have made it casual? That homophobia has gotten so bad that it people are even using words like faggot to describe inanimate objects, is just an indictment on the homophobia of society as a whole (and of course of the morons who use such language and those who think its ok).


Originally posted by enigma

This would suggest that homophobic expressions have simply come to mean &#39;bad&#39; or &#39;inferior&#39; and have lost their origional contextual and literal meanings.

Ummm, that is very standard homophobia, it&#39;s not something &#39;new&#39; - yes it is homophobic to equate being gay with being shit, that&#39;s quite obviously a negative association, the fact that gay does not actually mean shit is irrelevant to whether its homophobic.


Originally posted by engima

I&#39;m not saying that is right or it does not directly promote homophobia, but I doubt that it is the intention.

Love they enemy&#33; Turn the other cheek, no thanks JC. How can this not be deliberate?

Why you trying to be hardcore, you fucking homo-thug
And don&#39;t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote
Cuz if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke

Please do not forget that this discussion is about whether Tech is sexist/homophobic, not a general discussion on prejudiced language or prejudice as you&#39;re trying to make it.



I hope you are joking

No, really, not all hip-hop artists drop &#39;faggot&#39; into their rhymes, not quite sure why you find that so hard to believe?


Originally posted by enigma

Even remotely successful progressive rappers like Sage Francis are few and far between and certainly are not &#39;popular&#39; nor do they represent a realistic reflection of the genre in general, they don&#39;t call stuff which has not reached a wide audience &#39;underground&#39; for shits and giggles.

What is your point and how does it relate to whether or not Tech is sexist/homophobic?


[email protected]
But even if the majority of artists do not, there is certainly a much greater element of such language being used than in other genres.

So what? As ive already stated:

This is irrelevant to whether or not Tech&#39;s and his lyrics are sexist and homophobic, dont sidetrack the discussion. He is or he isn&#39;t, that more or less people have similar views or lyrics does not make Tech&#39;s lyrics more or less homophobic or sexist.



enigma

Not to mention that hip-hop does not reflect the working class in general. For example gangsta rappers from American cities do not reflect the attitudes of working class people living small UK cities or even with different US cities. For example I doubt Immortal Technique has anything in common with Roots Manuva. To suggest what you are suggesting lacks depth and creates an utterly two dimentional perspective.

What are you talking about? Argh, you keep dragging the discussion away from its actual point, is tech homophobic/sexist or not - whether or not hip-hop reflects every WC person in the world is irrelevant (of course it doesnt for fuck&#39;s sake), and has nothing to do with my posts.

Please dont bother responding unless you&#39;re going to actually address the original discussion,

I&#39;m talking about whether or not Tech&#39;s lyrics are sexist/homophobic and if he is a sexist/homophobic, im arguing that he is, currently your position is that &#39;perhaps he is&#39;, i think its much more clear-cut than that (and quite obviously so).

[Invader Zim]

This is irrelevant to whether or not Tech&#39;s and his lyrics are sexist and homophobic, dont sidetrack the discussion.

As usual, you are approaching this topic from a very warped perspective. By pointing out that if Immortal Techniques lyrics can be attributed, even if only in part, to a wider social trend, I am side tracking the discussion? well, I guess we are going to disagree, because it absolutely relevant. I rather think that the problem is not my &#39;sidetracking&#39; of the subject, but your inability to keep up with it.



Actually, (as i said in my last post) main-stream hip-hop is actually less explictly homophobic than Tech, and id say probably equally sexist.

Whether or not it is a less so or more so is irrelevant, what is relevant that it is homophobic and sexist. Are you suggesting that all these artists are homophobes and sexists?



Talking about &#39;societal&#39; trends is talking AROUND the issue, address Tech or dont bother replying.

No its not; answer the question.



What are you talking about?

The fact that Hip-hop attracts considerably more homophobic and sexist language than any other major genre of music I know of. If you claim that all these artists must be homophobes and sexists, then you are making just as much a reflection of the society they come from as you are the individuals them selves.


Please, i want you to lay down how exactly you&#39;ve managed to turn your own anti-WC prejudice on to me

Because you are the one who thinks that these artists, who reflect the attitudes of the society they live in, are a bunch of homophobes and sexists so what does that say about the society they live in?

You see this is your problem, you can&#39;t see the big picture. You make these observations yet place no thought into what causes individuals to make such statements.




How is that not homophobic?

I never claimed his lyrics were not.


And no, it doesnt matter if homophobic or sexist lyrics are common in hip-hop, nor that sexism and homophobia is common in society generally

Yes it does, in fact it probably matters more.



Okay, so now you&#39;re saying because casual homophobia is so common its no longer homophobic to use homophobic language?

Not at all, try actually reading what is stated to you. I did not claim that it was not homophobic, in fact I specifically stated it did promote homophobia, my point was that it maybe homophobic but that it is not intentionally so. In the exact same manner that alling something &#39;crap&#39; does not make it a piece of excrement, but means that it has negative characteristsics.


Why should any wom*n or queer have to put up with prejudice or prejudiced language just because heteros or men have made it casual?

They shouldn&#39;t.

My point is not that it is justifiable or &#39;right&#39; to use such language but attempting to discuss why, in what social context and what this trend says about society and the individuals in question.




Love they enemy&#33; Turn the other cheek, no thanks JC.

That isn&#39;t anything even resembling what I said.



Please do not forget that this discussion is about whether Tech is sexist/homophobic, not a general discussion on prejudiced language or prejudice as you&#39;re trying to make it.

Don&#39;t give me that crap.



So what?

Again, it is because of the greater social context, do try and keep up.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)As usual, you are approaching this topic from a very warped perspective. By pointing out that if Immortal Techniques lyrics can be attributed, even if only in part, to a wider social trend, I am side tracking the discussion? well, I guess we are going to disagree, because it absolutely relevant. I rather think that the problem is not my &#39;sidetracking&#39; of the subject, but your inability to keep up with it.[/b]

Yes, that is side-tracking the discussion.

Why?

Because its irrelevant to point out whether or not Tech&#39;s attitudes as expressed in his lyrics and interviews are part of a &#39;wider social trend&#39; - that may or may not be the case,

The question is whether or not his attitudes are homophobic/sexist, are they or are they not?

Being a part of a &#39;wider social trend&#39; does not make homophobia/sexism acceptable or more acceptable, nor can or should it be used to deflect criticism.


Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)Whether or not it is a less so or more so is irrelevant, what is relevant that it is homophobic and sexist. Are you suggesting that all these artists are homophobes and sexists?[/b]

The ones that have explicitly sexist and homophobic lyrics, yes, but then so is a large proportion of the (male) population.


No its not; answer the question.

Answer what? I agree that culture is a reflection on society, that is a painfully obvious observation.


Originally posted by enigma
If you claim that all these artists must be homophobes and sexists, then you are making just as much a reflection of the society they come from as you are the individuals them selves.

Except that not all hip-hop is sexist or homophobic, and nor are all hip-hop artists from the same part of society, or the same backgrounds, they reflect their individual backgrounds, which are also influenced by general social trends which are homophobic/sexist.


Originally posted by enigma
Because you are the one who thinks that these artists, who reflect the attitudes of the society they live in, are a bunch of homophobes and sexists so what does that say about the society they live in?

Comprehension&#33;

Unlike you, i never suggested that reactionary social attitudes were because of class background, i said that the general social trends are homphobic/sexist, they cut across all classes, its not specific to WC people.


Originally posted by enigma

You see this is your problem, you can&#39;t see the big picture. You make these observations yet place no thought into what causes individuals to make such statements.

Um, ive made the point numerous times that general social trends, culture is homophobic/sexist, there are largely normative attitudes, that is no doubt one of the major causes for the prevalance of such attitudes in society.

However, and this your &#39;problem&#39;, you dont seem to understand that just because a reactionary attitude happens to normative, doesnt mean that people who reflect those views arent actually homophobic/sexist/etc themselves, that in fact they are somehow unaware of their prejudice or that its any more acceptable since they are merely the product of a social trend.

That this is a social trend does not shift the emphasis off the individual who chooses to perpetuate this prejudice.

At a basic level, everyone should be critical when approaching hip-hop artists (and &#39;celebrities&#39; of all types in general), people shouldnt listen to and support people with reactionary views without being actively critical of them - the problem is most people just ignore, deny, and at worst, defend artists or celebrities they like, and their views, out of some sort of idol fantasy.


Originally posted by enigma
I never claimed his lyrics were not.

Stop evading the issue, is Tech homophobic/sexist or not?

If you dont think he is, despite his homophobic lyrics and comments to the contrary, that is your perogative i suppose.


Originally posted by enigma
Yes it does, in fact it probably matters more.

Why on earth would that matter more?

Are no individuals accountable to their personal views because they happen to reflect general trends?

Where the fuck does personal responibility kick in for you? This is absurd.


Originally posted by enigma
my point was that it maybe homophobic but that it is not intentionally so. In the exact same manner that alling something &#39;crap&#39; does not make it a piece of excrement, but means that it has negative characteristsics.

We need a head banging against a wall smiley.

Okay, so what would tech have to say for you to consider his repeatedly sexist and homophobic lyrics and comments intentional?

Is he free to say whatever he wants as long as its not &#39;i hate faggots&#39;?

How is this not intentionally homophobic?

Why you trying to be hardcore, you fucking homo-thug
And don&#39;t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote
Cuz if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke

Or this (when asked about the role of wom*n and queers in the rev struggle)


Originally posted by tech
Our society has been trained to soften ourselves, to make us more feminine in the attempt to strip our men of any power base. Funny that a successful powerful black or Latino man in the street is unacceptable to America&#39;s propaganda machine (Hollywood), but a gay one isn&#39;t?&#33;?

?



Originally posted by enigma
My point is not that it is justifiable or &#39;right&#39; to use such language but attempting to discuss why,

I thought it was quite evident why its not justifiable or &#39;right&#39; to use homophobic/sexist language?


[email protected]

in what social context and what this trend says about society and the individuals in question.

So what does this say about tech?

You seem to be suggesting that he is merely a naive dupe of social trends, that he doesnt &#39;really&#39; mean it.

If so, you&#39;d probably be the shittest &#39;ally&#39; to wom*n and queers i have ever seen. We&#39;re not meant to make excuses for people, sure understand the social context, but nevertheless people need to be confronted about their attitudes, playing down prejudice because its normative is not an effective way of challenging it.


enigma
Again, it is because of the greater social context, do try and keep up.

Again, social contexts does not prevent an individual from labelled a legit sexist or homophobe, Tech has made his views clear lyrically and in comments, yes social context produces or at least contributes to the formation of ideas, but you have to call someone out when they reproduce these attitudes themselves - that is what im doing to Tech right now, im calling him out for being homophobic and sexist, and im calling out everyone who supports him and his music without saying a word of criticism about his lyrics, and worse, those who are defending him.

[Ian]

Non Phixion broke up, did you hear?

[dusk]

Listen to APAKALYPSE, SERUM, AND KUBA. :D

[Invader Zim]

So what does this say about tech?

That he, like numerous others, is part of the trend.



We need a head banging against a wall smiley.

You are quite right, because I have utterly lost patience with trying to spell out even the most simplistic of concept in the hope that perhaps, just maybe, you will get it.

If you think that attempting to find the cause of sexist and homophobic attitudes of rappers (which you dragged off topic into a discussion about Immortal Technique being a homophobe) in a thread which has drifted off topic into being almost completely about homophobic attitudes of a rapper, then you are at a stage where logic just passes you by.

In short I give up on you, you are a lost cause.

[Black Dagger]

Yeah, i knew you were gonna use that line as a cop-out, i should have edited it out&#33;


Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)If you think that attempting to find the cause of sexist and homophobic attitudes of rappers (which you dragged off topic into a discussion about Immortal Technique being a homophobe) [/b]

Um, you see i was having this discussion about Immortal Technique and whether or not he&#39;s sexist/homophobic before you even posted in here, whoops&#33;



engima
in a thread which has drifted off topic into being almost completely about homophobic attitudes of a rapper, then you are at a stage where logic just passes you by.

Yes, because discussing whether or not its &#39;good&#39; that the majority of voters voted that they &#39;respect&#39; someone who has explicitly homophobic/sexist lyrics&#39; For Lyrics of Knowledge.&#39; - is such a waste of time, please everyone, never mind dissent or critical thought, enjoy fucking up those homothug *****es like your buddy Tech, enigma will be there with you with his fingers in his ears :rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

Yeah, i knew you were gonna use that line as a cop-out, i should have edited it out&#33;

Whatever you say, boss.



Um, you see i was having this discussion about Immortal Technique and whether or not he&#39;s sexist/homophobic before you even posted in here, whoops&#33;

This is why I can&#39;t be dealing with you, read it again. The thread was never originally about homophobia in hip-hop, you made it so back on the first page. And now, immensely hypocritically you tell me I can&#39;t keep on topic and address the issues. :rolleyes: But moving swiftly on, you seem to want to pick and choose which elements of the discussion get discussed. you seem to want to focus entirely on Immortal Technique as an individual, while ignoring him as being part of a wider social trend, which has much greater implications, probably because it questions your infantile view of the scenario.


Yes, because discussing whether or not its &#39;good&#39; that the majority of voters voted that they &#39;respect&#39; someone who has explicitly homophobic/sexist lyrics&#39; For Lyrics of Knowledge.&#39;

Well, for a start that was never our discussion, and even if it were perhaps they can see that the greater social trend within the genre and ignore elements which they disapprove of?


is such a waste of time, please everyone, never mind dissent or critical thought, enjoy fucking up those homothug *****es like your buddy Tech, enigma will be there with you with his fingers in his ears

Again you have used a straw man, which further evidences your inability to make an argument without resorting to a logical fallacy.


So lets summarise what conclusions can be drawn from your argument: -

1. Immortal Technique is a homophobe.

2. Any attempt to establish the social causes for this trend will see you sliding towards apoplexy while completely refusing to contemplate the discussion and raving about &#39;evading the issue&#39;. An odd stance for a "leftist", I must say.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)This is why I can&#39;t be dealing with you, read it again. The thread was never originally about homophobia in hip-hop, you made it so back on the first page. [/b]

So what if i did? I found it pretty concerning that Immortal Technique, a rapper who is infamous for homophobic/sexist lyrics was leading the poll (he&#39;s been leading since the start) for &#39;most respect&#39; for &#39;lyrics and knowledge&#39; on a revleftist board, hence i wanted to discuss why people thought this way given his lyrics/views and the fact that the responders to the poll are meant to be anti-sexist/anti-homophobia.


Originally posted by enigma+--> (enigma)
And now, immensely hypocritically you tell me I can&#39;t keep on topic and address the issues. [/b]

Well i was having a very specific discussion about Tech, long before you posted, that was the discussion i was having, and when you responded to what i said you began to drag the discussion away from whether or not tech and his lyrics are sexist/etc to a discussion about social trends.


Originally posted by engima

But moving swiftly on, you seem to want to pick and choose which elements of the discussion get discussed.

No, i just want to continue what i was originally talking about - whether or not Tech is sexist etc. and how leftists conciliate this with voting for him as the person they &#39;most&#39; respect for lyrics of knowledge&#39; - not where you want to take the discussion, this is because that is what this thread concerns its about rappers people respect, and i was raising questions as to why people respect Tech so much given his attitudes. What i was concerned about, people uncritically support Immortal Technique by voting for him.


Originally posted by engima

you seem to want to focus entirely on Immortal Technique as an individual, while ignoring him as being part of a wider social trend, which has much greater implications, probably because it questions your infantile view of the scenario.

Well that is because the thread is about individual rappers, and my original discussion which you were not a part of, was about why of these individual rappers, people were overwhelmingly voting for Tech, even though his lyrics should be problematic for people who claim to be leftists. That is a very simple argument, your &#39;view&#39; on the issue is welcome, but the angle that you have taken on the discussion that was already taking place here is not really contributing to it. I wanna know how and why people justify their support for someone who is clearly sexist/homophobic, talking about whether or not his attitudes are merely the reflection of a social trend does not answer that question.


Originally posted by enigma
well, for a start that was never our discussion,

Well the discussion that i began grew out of the poll itself and topic post (which includes homophobic Tech lyrics). Im sorry but that THE discussion that has taken place, you were not a part of it until now.


[email protected]

and even if it were perhaps they can see that the greater social trend within the genre and ignore elements which they disapprove of?

What is the greater social trend within hip-hop?

Regardless, i want the people who like Tech to answer these questions, not for you to speculate on their answers.


engima
2. Any attempt to establish the social causes for this trend will see you sliding towards apoplexy while completely refusing to contemplate the discussion and raving about &#39;evading the issue&#39;. An odd stance for a "leftist", I must say.

You havent explained anything, all youve said is that Tech&#39;s homophobic/sexist lyrics (though you are not willing to say that he is homophobic) are probably the product of social trends that are generally homophobic/sexist, i dont disagree with that POV, it just doesnt answer my question as to why people support Tech uncritically, or at all.

[Invader Zim]

So what if i did? I found it pretty concerning that Immortal Technique, a rapper who is infamous for homophobic/sexist lyrics was leading the poll (he&#39;s been leading since the start) for &#39;most respect&#39; for &#39;lyrics and knowledge&#39; on a revleftist board, hence i wanted to discuss why people thought this way given his lyrics/views and the fact that the responders to the poll are meant to be anti-sexist/anti-homophobia.

Thats fine, but it goes in complete contrast with the point I was responding to.


Well i was having a very specific discussion about Tech, long before you posted, that was the discussion i was having, and when you responded to what i said you began to drag the discussion away from whether or not tech and his lyrics are sexist/etc to a discussion about social trends.

Well that isn&#39;t true, is it? I made a post stating my opinions regarding Immortal Techniques positions view within the wider spectrum of social trend that is reflected by many hip-hop artists, which you chose to oppose.


No, i just want to continue what i was originally talking about - whether or not Tech is sexist etc.

But the wider social causes for trends in the evolution of language and society are entirely relevant to that discussion, but you don&#39;t apparently want to discuss it.


not where you want to take the discussion

Well, tough, you shouldn&#39;t have responded to my post if you didn&#39;t want to discuss it.




Well the discussion that i began grew out of the poll itself and topic post (which includes homophobic Tech lyrics).

Correct, but that was never our discussion, our discussion was derived from your responce to one of my posts, a responce which spawned our discussion.



Regardless, i want the people who like Tech to answer these questions, not for you to speculate on their answers.

I think you fail to understand the nature of this board, it is a discussion board. People post their views, which we then discuss and suggest counterveiling considerations, etc.

[ZACKist]

Identity politics... eh.

I just wouldn&#39;t know unless I was black, right? So why even try to relate cause I surely can&#39;t&#33; Please.

[poetofrageX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 08:31 AM
Non Phixion broke up, did you hear?
holy shit, i hope not&#33; do u have a link?

I almost voted other, since i love The Coup so much, but recently, Boots Riley has been making a lot of his music more personal, even adding some love songs, to the point that its been diluting his revolutionary message, although outside of his music, i agree with his political ideals more than i do with any other rapper. so i&#39;m gonna go with technique, cuz even though dead prez is cool, they are a bit racist. and sabac is great, but duznt work that great as a soloist


and for the record, i really like Immortal Technique. i&#39;ll admit a lot of the language he uses bugs me, but i look past it because the message he&#39;s clearly trying to give is so often a revolutonary one. And i&#39;m kinda surprised that i&#39;m the first one to mention it but, blackdagger, dont you remember that Marx himself said that homosexuality was "a disease of the degenerate bourgiouse"? that kind of thinking was obviously a product of the society Marx lived in, as is Technique&#39;s language. As far as i know, Technique hasnt said anything nearly as homophobic as the Marx quote above, so do you believe that Marx is a revolutonary despite the above statement, and that Technique isnt because of his use of the word faggot as an insult to straight men?

[Hampton]

Identity politics... eh.

I just wouldn&#39;t know unless I was black, right? So why even try to relate cause I surely can&#39;t&#33; Please.

So you know what it&#39;s like to be called a nigger?

In reality it isn&#39;t even about that.

It&#39;s about the arrogance that others have when they think they can dictate what a group of people can do. He should be supporting an oppressed group of people trying to do something for themselves that can better their lives.

And I never said that you or anyone else could not try, it would be very hard, but Bob is not in position to decide what blacks can try and do with the word.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by poetofrageX+--> (poetofrageX)holy shit, i hope not&#33; do u have a link?[/b]

Check their official website, it&#39;s true.


Originally posted by poetofrageX+--> (poetofrageX)so i&#39;m gonna go with technique, cuz even though dead prez is cool, they are a bit racist.[/b]

Bro, DP are &#39;a bit racist&#39; (why do you think that?), but what about tech? He&#39;s sexist and homophobic&#33; I&#39;d take DP&#39;s &#39;racism&#39; over that shit any day of the week.


[email protected]
dont you remember that Marx himself said that homosexuality was "a disease of the degenerate bourgiouse"?

I had no idea, where is that quote from?


poetofrageX

so do you believe that Marx is a revolutonary despite the above statement, and that Technique isnt because of his use of the word faggot as an insult to straight men?

Being a homophobic sexist doesn&#39;t mean he&#39;s not &#39;revolutionary&#39;, although tech has stated explicitly before that he&#39;s not a &#39;socialist&#39; or communist or whatever, it just means that he&#39;s a homophobic sexist. I&#39;d rather not have to put up with that kind of shit when im trying to chill out by myself, with a partner, or with friends or whatever - and there&#39;s plenty of revolutionary hip-hop (and better emcees) to listen to that dont have the same problems that tech has.

[Eastside Revolt]

woops. double post.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 24 2006, 03:39 PM

Out of the 3 options Dead prez is by for my favorite. Although they do get on my nerves a little with the outright racism towards any white person.

How the fuck are they racist towards "any white person"?
I wouldn&#39;t nessesarily say that they are racist persay.

Thier music does seem to feed into the idea that all white people are working class enemies.

With lines like "slap a white boy".

Also I remember one line where m1 states:(or something along the lines of) "i&#39;m not a marxist I&#39;m a marked man with the dark skin". Clearly seperating himself from his idol like Huey and Hampton, saying bassically "Fuck class war, I&#39;m a black nationalist."

Or another line I can think of where they talk about nothing being closer than your "kin". And considering other qoutes I&#39;ve heard of thiers, I highly doubt they&#39;re reffering to "kin" as lower classes of the world.

But don&#39;t get me wrong, they are two of my favorite MC&#39;s. :wacko:

[ZACKist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 10:37 PM
So you know what it&#39;s like to be called a nigger?

In reality it isn&#39;t even about that.

It&#39;s about the arrogance that others have when they think they can dictate what a group of people can do. He should be supporting an oppressed group of people trying to do something for themselves that can better their lives.

And I never said that you or anyone else could not try, it would be very hard, but Bob is not in position to decide what blacks can try and do with the word.

I don&#39;t know what it&#39;s liked to be called nigger. I do however know what it is like to be called derogatory/bigotry-natured words. So for me, I don&#39;t see it as helping to continue the use of said words but rather to educate on how these words were/are used by narrow-minded racist bigots. Rather we should educate that the words have a long history of useage amongst these types of reactionary forces.

I hope I don&#39;t come across as arrogant when I say that the use of nigger/nigga is demoralising, but I suppose being white that&#39;s what will happen when delving into the world of identity politics.

If we can never possibly understand the exploitation and repression of some particular group without ourselves being a black/white/chicano/asian/native , male/female, hetero/bi/homo-sexual how can we ever free ourselves and create a revolutionary force strong enough to involve the great majority of the masses? If we all have our own sorts of exploitation (which I&#39;m not disagreeing with at all) under capitalism-imperialism and we demand that we can&#39;t have any leader but this one or that one (because they MUST be this or that to understand), we will never get a revolution strong enough to deal the kind of blow we as the masses so desperately need to destroy such reactionary forces.


I know this is probably a bit simplistic, but I believe it gets to the point I&#39;m trying to explain.

If nigger is still used and understood to be a racist word, can it at the same time be used in a non-racist way to change its meaning? I don&#39;t see how it can so long as it&#39;s still used by some reactionaries in a negative and bigoted manner.

[Tickin&#39; TimebOmb John]

i rekon the coup are probably the hip-hop group that have the best lyrical message for me altho its tru to say that there newest album has a degree of love songs whice dilute the revolutionary messgae.

ive noted some people callin dead prez racist, bt in comparison to ITs occasional homophobia and sexism this is more understandable. as black men dead prez have experienced racist treatment and so wot some have called &#39;anti-white&#39; messages can arise from this. altho i would not agree with this black nationalist position it is understandable when considerin the treatment black people have recieved, as i can understand why a woman would become a radical feminist altho i wuld disagree with radical feminists positions on many issues. i also noted the &#39;im not a marxist&#39; line, i think its from food clothes and shelter pt. 2 altho im nt certain, altho i thought it was stic.man not m1 who said it bt i could be wrong. its also important to note that dead prez are a group nt an individual so there is likely to be some blurring of ideology where the two have contrasting views on issues.

im a big fan of IT&#39;s music altho some of the lyrical content does bug me. however it is to a certain extent tru to say that someone can, use terms such as gay to mean summin bad without being outright homophobic. altho its bad, there is a certain truth to the idea that it is un intentional, altho im nt sure if this is the case with IT, as as a lyricist i kno that when im writin ill think about wot i have to say in depth before i commit it to song, so whilst someone may use gay as a derogotary term in passing without thinking, its unlikely that someone would commit it to song without havin some homophobic feeling.

on another note, sad to hear bout non phixion splitin up, they were a real gd group, an i hope that the three of em go on to repeat this quality with their solo efforts.

[threat level red]

Okay, but the Coup get bonus points for "Ghetto Manifesto", which is both my favorite hip-hop song and one of my favorite revolution anthems.

Ghetto Manifesto by The Coup

I write my lyrics on parking tickets and summons to the court
I scribbled this on an application for county support
I practice this like a sport
Met Donald Trump and he froze up
Standing on his Bentley yelling "Pimps down, hoes up&#33;"
Some tryin&#39; to front off
Break her ass a clump off
We gon&#39; stop the world and make y&#39;all motherfuckers jump off
This is my resume slash resignation
A ransom note with proposed legislation
A fevered ultimatum you should take it verbatim
Cause I got two bangin&#39; pieces and you don&#39;t wanna date em&#39;
Flyin&#39; kites for my folks at home
Who takin&#39; tokes alone
We payin&#39; rent on shit they ain&#39;t even sposed to own
Narratin&#39; through my verse, agitatin&#39; when ya curse
It&#39;s a million motherfuckers just waitin&#39; on the first
Anticipatin&#39; on the worst, wanna weightin&#39; up ya purse
Shook the jobby job down at noon and don&#39;t disperse
They wouldn&#39;t pay ya ass as far as they can throw you
They think you punkin&#39; but they don&#39;t know you
Dissin&#39; turf operata, play with twelve shot berettas
Buy the Burger King workers and we slappin&#39; on ya lettuce
Wrote that in the back of those apartments
A coupon from agricultural departments
When we put down the X-O, we can let the threats go
And start shit, it&#39;s the ghetto manifesto

Call me bird cause of my legs but my ass don&#39;t sing
Got a house arrest anklet but it don&#39;t bling bling
The homie with a cell but that shit don&#39;t ring
But at lights out bars clang and souls get stang
Now it&#39;s the hustlin&#39; sound, trick where they muscle around blacks
Make ya thoughts heavy, drop a joint and make the ground crack
Even renowned historians have found that
The people only bounce back when they pound back
So I take out a spray can and paste the pavement
Defacin&#39; gravements of a sufferin&#39; nation
The files are flagrant and that&#39;s the fragrance
I overheard them askin&#39; vagrance for patients
So check the liner notes, I steal my finer quotes
For d-boys tryin&#39; to flow them Gucci&#39;s and designer boats
And party liner jokes and all kinds of folks
Who all kind of broke
But bought twenties cause they feel like a lot of smoke
The trees we got lifted by made our feet dangle
So when I say burn one I mean the Star-Spangled
Let&#39;s all get high from the income angle
Bump this at the party even if it ain&#39;t the single
Here&#39;s a slum serenade, on razor blades and grenades
By nannies and maids who be polishin&#39; the suede
You could let the sess blow but let&#39;s make the sets grow
Into brigades with the ghetto manifesto

[KC]

I still don&#39;t see what&#39;s racist about Dead Prez at all. Maybe someone could enlighten me?

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Khayembii Communique+Aug 1 2006, 03:27 AM--> (Khayembii Communique &#064; Aug 1 2006, 03:27 AM) I still don&#39;t see what&#39;s racist about Dead Prez at all. Maybe someone could enlighten me? [/b]
They&#39;re not&#33;


Tickin&#39; TimebOmb John
so whilst someone may use gay as a derogotary term in passing without thinking, its unlikely that someone would commit it to song without havin some homophobic feeling.

I think this is an exceptionally perceptive point&#33; This reminds me, i was talking to a friend about the group, Hilltop Hoods (aussie hip-hop group), i got really into them, but i noticed that one of the guys in the group would drop homophobic shit every now and then (just in a handful of songs), and whilst it wasnt as malicious as the kind of shit you find in Immortal Techinique&#39;s lyrics, it was nevertheless there, but always from the same emcee.

The thing there&#39;s two emcee&#39;s in this group, and i was thinking, i wonder what the other emcee thinks of these lyrics? It&#39;s weird, because he never says anything homophobic, it&#39;s always coming from the same guy. Then i talked with a friend of mine about it, and she made the same point as you did above, and that is, if the other emcee had a real problem with what was being said he never would have let it stay on the track, he&#39;d never let them put his name on there, or perform the song. Even if he doesnt say the shit himself, he&#39;s de facto endorsing it by letting it get out there.

That tech uses this kind of shit, not just in free-styles, but in stuff he records shows that this is not just &#39;spur of the moment&#39; crap, but as Tickin&#39; TimebOmb John suggests, premeditated, thought out-stuff. He&#39;s actually constructing these rhymes, thinkin about em, praticing them, recording them etc. And not only has no one stepped up during this process to question the prejudiced language he uses, but he&#39;s ignored a variety of points of opportunity where he could have made lyrical changes and just put that stuff on his record.

[Dominicana_1965]

Its has to def. be Immortal Technique..i mean literally..he keeps shit raw.
His dead level of honesty is crazy

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:24 PM
Its has to def. be Immortal Technique..i mean literally..he keeps shit raw.
His dead level of honesty is crazy
Actually IT&#39;s lyrics are pretty decent minus the little homophobia that he speaks about. I&#39;ve read a few parts of his songs and he words them nicely.

[The Freewheelin&#39; Tiger]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 9 2006, 06:22 AM
Has anyone else here checked out the hip hop group Blue Scholars? They&#39;re the fucking best, hands down&#33; I highly recommend everyone to get their CD, as it has both the best sound, and highest level of ideology I have ever come across in any music.

http://myspace.com/bluescholars

and

http://myspace.com/bluescholars2

Be sure to listen to Southside Revival and Commencement Day. My favorite song, "Life and Debt," isn&#39;t on there, but hit me up on AIM and I&#39;d be more than happy to send it to you.
Whoa&#33; I&#39;m really excited to see that you like blue scholars&#33; Do you have both of their albums? They are one of my favorite artists at the time. I highly highly recommend their music, especially The Inkwell and the Long March. Proletariat Blues is my favorite song though. I was lucky enough to meet Geologic at a show and I got a photo with him. He was wearing a really cool shirt with lenin&#39;s face on it. :)

Anyhow when it comes to hip hop, obviously blue scholars is way up there (most likely my number 2 favorite hiphop), but Wu tang will always have that special place in my heart. Always.

[Viva Fidel&#33;&#33;]

Blue Scholars is amazing hip-hop.

[Miolnir]

Maybe you should try picking and choosing who you listen to. If i don&#39;t like what someone puts into their lirycs, the way they flow, or parts of their ideology I either choose not to listen to them at all, or such as in the case of DP I listen to the songs that do not personally offend me.
Black Dagger as far as Immortal Technique being more homophobic than mainstream hip-hop you are delusional. In case you don&#39;t remember it was only a few years ago that Eminem one of the most successful rappers of all time, quite possibly as mainstream, as hip hop will any rapper will ever be, made some rather homophobic songs, which even lead to "GLAD" protesting his shows, and lead to a "staged" performance with Elton John. I hope I won&#39;t be restricted for posting this, and voicing my opinion. :D

[Black Dagger]

Black Dagger as far as Immortal Technique being more homophobic than mainstream hip-hop you are delusional.

I disagree (obviously :P).

Yeah main-stream hip-hop artists like eminem DO put out tracks with homophobic lyrics but precisely because of what happened to eminem - these are not usually their major release singles etc., they don&#39;t get the same kind of play, tracks with &#39;faggot&#39; or &#39;fag&#39; will most likely be censored for radio release (censorship that IT will never face). Major artists like eminem have to be weary of what they put in their lyrics because unlike underground acts like IT, they face a much greater degree of scrutiny.

IT has probably never been picketed by GLAAD, because they&#39;ve probably never even heard of him.

Consequently he can drop as many, &#39;faggots&#39; into his lyrics as he wants, really without worrying about a backlash from groups like GLAAD.

[The Grey Blur]

The Coup (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7876922236377733547&q=ride+the+fence)