Respecting Religion

[Ander]

One thing my father once said about our family was "We respect all religions but practice none." When I thought about it, it sounded like an intelligent thing to say but I did not believe it. I don't respect religion and I haven't for a long time, and as for those who practice it I'm not sure. Sometimes I am indifferent but sometimes I feel like they are weak and foolish. I do have many friends (my girlfriend too) who are religious, but I don't really think about it much. I usually connect religion with the ignorant masses, not with people I know personally.

Now what I was wondering was, as leftists, we may not like and/or practice religion, but should we at least have respect for it?

[Avtomatov]

And i dont think we should respect religion, because nothing else is rational about religion. Its all unfounded beleif.

No respect. Do drug addicts, and drug pushers deserve respect?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I know where you're coming from, Avtomat, but there is no need to introduce the chimera of the soul. What exactly is a soul, how does it differ from mechanics? You're begging the question somewhat. :)
-Alex

[Avtomatov]

Yah i deleted that part of my post, i dont think people would be interested in the soul. Atleast not on this forum.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Oh I see, sorry. Well, about religion then:

I think we should selectively decide which parts of which religions we respect, rather than a blanket statement of disrespect to all religion.

-Alex

[Avtomatov]

You know what i think, I think religion was at first a good thing because people cant understand why things are morally wrong unless they are threatened by a divine force who will send them to hell. But nowadays people manipulate it for their own benefit.

Maybe we should start a religion with Immanuel Kant as a god, and if you dont abide by the categorical imperative you will go to Kantian hell. This would be a good religion.

[which doctor]

Religion, as well as all other oppressive institutions, should not be tolerated.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 28 2006, 05:40 PM
Religion, as well as all other oppressive institutions, should not be tolerated.
Tell me exactly what you mean by that? Do you mean that we should not tolerate religion and in turn oppress it?

OH SHIT, IRONY!!!11

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Jello+Jun 28 2006, 03:46 PM--> (Jello @ Jun 28 2006, 03:46 PM)
Fist of [email protected] 28 2006, 05:40 PM
Religion, as well as all other oppressive institutions, should not be tolerated.
Tell me exactly what you mean by that? Do you mean that we should not tolerate religion and in turn oppress it?

OH SHIT, IRONY!!!11 [/b]
Yes, that is what I mean,I want to oppress organized religion, and no, it's not ironic.

I also want to oppress the state and anyother oppressers.

[Ander]

Err...fuck. I only realized later the word I was looking for was "hypocrisy" not irony. Sorry about that.

But by oppressing other oppressive institutions, you become an oppressive institution. And so the cycle begins all over. That's the path that totalitarian assholes follow (see: Stalin, Hoxha, etc).

[R_P_A_S]

I respect religion. many good things have been done (as well as bad) in the name of religion. not respecting people and their religion is just as ignorant as you thinking that they are foolish and that religion is a waste of time. Let people believe in whatever they want. aslongest it inspires them and full-fills their lives what's it to you?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 03:54 PM
Err...fuck. I only realized later the word I was looking for was "hypocrisy" not irony. Sorry about that.

But by oppressing other oppressive institutions, you become an oppressive institution. And so the cycle begins all over. That's the path that totalitarian assholes follow (see: Stalin, Hoxha, etc).
So you don't agree with antifa bashing in the heads of nazis?

[Ander]

That has nothing to do. I believe it is inevitable that eventually the community and sectors of society will take it upon themselves to demonstrate their disapproval of Nazi ideology, be it by a peaceful or violent manner. Do I support this? It's hard to say. On one hand, I do not because it is violence and it is harming human beings. On the other, I do not doubt that these same victims would be more willing to harm or kill others.

But this is not oppression, at least not in the way I am defining it. What I am referring to is in a post-revolutionary setting. In that case I would not oppress Nazi's because I would not oppress anyone.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Why? Why do we need to "respect" something that makes no sense? Why should we respect something that suppresses our movement. Why should we respect something that lies to people and con's them? What good is it going to do us?

[Avtomatov]

By oppressing the oppressors, the people are free. Its not just about oppression. Its about the oppression of the people.

[KC]

2+2=5

If I believed this to seriously be true, are you going to "respect my opinion"? What if I'm a mathematician or a physicist or an engineer? Are you just going to "respect my opinion"?

[black magick hustla]

depends on what do you mean by "respect".


i pretty much loathe religion and i would rather see it exterminiated. however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against religion we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.

sure we all know religion is ridicolous, and that the world would be so much better with out it, but we also need to look at the pragmatic side of things, and normal people perceiving us as FILTHY RED ATHEISTS is not a good thing.

[MysticArcher]

however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against religion we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.


however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against racism we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.

So how are these two sentence different?

As the saying goes revolution is not a dinner party, we're going to alienate someone somewhere and it may as well be for real issues that we have real viewpoints on - not as part of some popularity contest

It's been posited before that mass atheism may be part of the build up to revolution - a consistent christian can't harm a capitalist - he's his "brother in christendom" or whatever, he can only admonish capitalists to exploit less ("masters be kind to thy slaves", not the exact words, but it's in the bible)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 03:42 AM

however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against religion we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.


however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against racism we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.

So how are these two sentence different?

As the saying goes revolution is not a dinner party, we're going to alienate someone somewhere and it may as well be for real issues that we have real viewpoints on - not as part of some popularity contest

It's been posited before that mass atheism may be part of the build up to revolution - a consistent christian can't harm a capitalist - he's his "brother in christendom" or whatever, he can only admonish capitalists to exploit less ("masters be kind to thy slaves", not the exact words, but it's in the bible)
:lol:

i do not think it is a very good idea to compare both racism and religion. most of my friends are religious, and if they were racist, they wouldnt be my friends.

[which doctor]

I believe it is inevitable that eventually the community and sectors of society will take it upon themselves to demonstrate their disapproval of Nazi ideology
And I think it's inevitable that society will end up destroying organized religion.


But this is not oppression, at least not in the way I am defining it. What I am referring to is in a post-revolutionary setting. In that case I would not oppress Nazi's because I would not oppress anyone.
Well, that's too bad for you, because the Nazis would sure like to oppress you. You sound like a pacifist to me. Although pacifism has achieved a few things, it has little application in destroying capitalism.


By oppressing the oppressors, the people are free. Its not just about oppression. Its about the oppression of the people.
Do you mean oppression by the people? If so, then I agree with you.


i pretty much loathe religion and i would rather see it exterminiated. however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against religion we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.
Organized religion should generally dissappear before the revolution. Not just economic conditions, but also social conditions need to be right for the revolution to occur.



i do not think it is a very good idea to compare both racism and religion. most of my friends are religious, and if they were racist, they wouldnt be my friends.
When you say they are religious, do you mean like hardcore into believing? Or are they only religious because they were raised that way.

Religion are racism are both oppressive institutions and need to be eliminated.

[chimx]

how is religion oppressive? it is voluntary.

[Herman]

how is religion oppressive? it is voluntary.

You misunderstand. Religion itself is not oppressive (at least, not anymore), rather it is a tool used by the bourgeois to keep the people happy with their roles in society and so that they do not question the functionality of the system in which they work in.

[bisclavret]

rather it is a tool used by the bourgeois to keep the people happy with their roles in society and so that they do not question the functionality of the system in which they work in

Right you are RedHerman, it is a tool and the good or bad depends on how the tool is being used. For me, I view religion as a personal experience, an appreciation of mystery, a potential storehouse of metaphors along with literature, music, art which makes me wonder why nobody in this forum is as angry with organized literature, organized music, organized art, organized science as ways of making people happy with their roles in society and so they do not question the functionality of the system in which they work in, as organized religion. It is probably because in history, nothing has fooled the masses more and been utilized by the bourgeois more than organized religion.

In the not so distant future...communist society...

Comrade 1: Jeez man, I wonder why no one has found a theory of consciousness yet until now, and the geeks say that such theory, given our present language and mathematics will require information with a quantity larger than the size of the universe itself, and how can you explain culture from QM, and isn't it amazing how life on earth sprouted at such an incredibly short time since the planet got formed, is it because we are after all finite organisms that we can't comprehend such things. There's something mysterious about this whole deal comrade..


Comrade 2: Rubbish! Such non-materialist thinking will reintroduce classes into our society! To the stake with you!

Comrades 3 and 4: Burn him! burn him! burn him!

Tsk3x..I smell something here comrades that has always been stinky in human history. Tis the smell of dogmatism. :)

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 12:38 AM
how is religion oppressive? it is voluntary.
not when your parents shove it down your throats like so many do

[Ander]

Originally posted by violencia.Proletariat+--> (violencia.Proletariat)Why? Why do we need to "respect" something that makes no sense? Why should we respect something that suppresses our movement. Why should we respect something that lies to people and con's them? What good is it going to do us?[/b]

Because the vast majority of the world is religious.


Originally posted by Khayembii Communique+--> (Khayembii Communique)2+2=5

If I believed this to seriously be true, are you going to "respect my opinion"? What if I'm a mathematician or a physicist or an engineer? Are you just going to "respect my opinion"?[/b]

No, because we know that this is not true in modern mathematical theory or whatnot. We don't know if God exists or not. No matter how much you deny it, it's true...we just don't know for sure.


[email protected]

however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against religion we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.


however, we should also understand that by taking an extremist standpoint against racism we are alienating many potential revolutionaries.

So how are these two sentence different?

What the hell are you talking about? How can you compare two completely different things like racism and religion?


Fist of Blood
Well, that's too bad for you, because the Nazis would sure like to oppress you. You sound like a pacifist to me. Although pacifism has achieved a few things, it has little application in destroying capitalism.

I sound like a pacifist because I refuse to be an oppressive piece of shit? Yeah I guess you're right.

Hey, next time you're hanging out with Stalin and Mao, say hello to them for me.

[which doctor]

What the hell are you talking about? How can you compare two completely different things like racism and religion?
Racism and religion are similar.


I sound like a pacifist because I refuse to be an oppressive piece of shit? Yeah I guess you're right.
No, because you agree to be willingly oppressed.


Hey, next time you're hanging out with Stalin and Mao, say hello to them for me.
Do you want me to say hello to them for you before or after I beat them for their oppressive actions in both Russia and China?

[Ander]

Racism and religion are similar.

Explain.


No, because you agree to be willingly oppressed.

:huh: I do? Well that's funny cause I don't ever recall saying that.


Do you want me to say hello to them for you before or after I beat them for their oppressive actions in both Russia and China?

How about after you follow in their footsteps?

[which doctor]

Because the vast majority of the world is religious.
Hopefully not for much longer.


Explain.
They're both oppressive insitutions that need to be abolished.


I do? Well that's funny cause I don't ever recall saying that.
You sure hinted at it. Especially in your comment about nazis. The state will continue to oppress you unless you fight back!


How about after you follow in their footsteps?
I would refuse to take a position of authority.

[Eleutherios]

As another poster already said, it depends on what you mean by "respect". Should we allow religious people to believe whatever crazy things they want to? Of course. It's not like we're going to change everybody's mind anytime soon. Forcing atheism on people through the barrel of a gun isn't going to get us anywhere. But should we let religious ideas go unchallenged, never criticizing the irrationality of their superstitions? I see no reason why we should. If logic and reason are ever to triumph over faith, rational individuals need to make an all-out intellectual assault on religious superstition.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood
You sure hinted at it. Especially in your comment about nazis. The state will continue to oppress you unless you fight back!

The state and the Nazi's are not the same thing. By refusing to oppress Nazi's, how the fuck am I automatically allowing them to oppress me? That makes no sense at all. I simply have respect for the rights of all people to express themselves without getting killed. If you want to live in that kind of society, here's a hint; rewind to 1984.

[ummProfessional]

Jello, i agree with you. I believe that whatever i believe should not be imposed upon other people, specially when it comes to "human spirituality" if you will.....if a person wants to worship a patato chip because he swears he sees the face of the Virgin! then he can go ahead and do so! i don't give a fuck! why all this hostility towards religion? why should i care? sure there are groups of people who are "radicalized" by religion, and have very close minded and narrow views, but the truth is most people in the world just believe in a god and aren't 100% die hard devotees..most people are tolerant, in fact everyone i know is, even my sister and her husband , who go to church every sunday and whom iv had discussions about the existance, and to me it seems that they keep refering to the bible for their anwsers to god's existance and that they are blinded by this...but fuck i don't care , im not trying to change their beliefs, they respect me, i respect them, i doubt spiritual beliefs interfere in the lives of most people! tolerance is what i respect, tolerance and the freedom to worship or not whatever the fuck your mind wants!

[Janus]

why all this hostility towards religion?
The beliefs are reactionary and are being shoved down people's throats. Just look at the US.


most people are tolerant
Are they tolerant of homosexuals, for example?


i doubt spiritual beliefs interfere in the lives of most people
That's generally what occurs with religious people and it's not really necessary at all.


tolerance is what i respect, tolerance and the freedom to worship or not whatever the fuck your mind wants!
OK, fair enough.

[CubaSocialista]

Comrades, this issue has exhausted me.

So let me make this clear one more time.



*Clears throat*

People are drawn to forbidden fruit. The more emphasis, hysteria, and angst we direct toward religion is an opportunity cost from fighting the threats of actual active theocrats, corporatists, and their hybrid "republican" offspring. Ladies and gents, the more attention we pay to religion, the more the "rebels" will be drawn to it. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature. That is, it is a result of society's failure to truly provide emotional stability and support for its people! There is no use in fighting passive religion, only theocracy and elements of religion with reactionary or exclusivist tendencies, or faiths that use doctrines such as "salvation" and "damnation" to harrass and intimidate non-believers.
My point is, with the beginnings of socialism, will come the natural decline of religion. Perhaps, in its place, will be individual spirituality. Or, perhaps, it will simply take on benign forms practiced by whoever, with no relevance or relation to this physical realm's affairs beyond morality consistent with socialist thought. We need not actively combat religion; why fight a SYMPTOM of the disease? Fight the disease itself, and the symptoms go away. It is an opiate of the masses (religion), because an oppressed creature needs its outlets, and outlets are business opportunities for the bourgeoisie. So there you have it.
Show no respect to theocrats, zombies, misogynist "tough guys", and self-deprecating women who wish to serve men according to archaic texts. However, pay no mind to those who worship or believe without letting such action take consequence on political reasoning, or scientific or economic reasoning. Socialism's beginnings will initiate their transition into a completely harmless element of society. Religion taken as literal is a great stupidity, but it is the foundation, philosophically, of thought since the dawn of man. We are not here to eliminate religion (and thus rewrite history), but to interpret it as scientific socialists. So let's attack the active, dispensationalist, fundamentalist, theocratic, and fanatical elements, and let's leave the dialectic to wean off or tame the others.

Regards. :ph34r:

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Religion is oppressive and immoral - just like racism. Simply turn to communist philosophy, such as writings by Marx of Bakunin, to discover the evils of religion. It cannot be part of the revolutionary movement because it will result in the movement's failure.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 30 2006, 06:04 PM
Religion is oppressive and immoral - just like racism. Simply turn to communist philosophy, such as writings by Marx of Bakunin, to discover the evils of religion. It cannot be part of the revolutionary movement because it will result in the movement's failure.
That's a moral absolutist judgement. Marxism is moral relativist, or Utilitarian. Religious people, like all people, fall into shades of grey. Some better than others, some worse, or "darker." The lighter shades can be friends in the progressive shifts.

[bisclavret]

People are drawn to forbidden fruit. The more emphasis, hysteria, and angst we direct toward religion is an opportunity cost from fighting the threats of actual active theocrats, corporatists, and their hybrid "republican" offspring. Ladies and gents, the more attention we pay to religion, the more the "rebels" will be drawn to it. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature. That is, it is a result of society's failure to truly provide emotional stability and support for its people! There is no use in fighting passive religion, only theocracy and elements of religion with reactionary or exclusivist tendencies, or faiths that use doctrines such as "salvation" and "damnation" to harrass and intimidate non-believers.
My point is, with the beginnings of socialism, will come the natural decline of religion. Perhaps, in its place, will be individual spirituality. Or, perhaps, it will simply take on benign forms practiced by whoever, with no relevance or relation to this physical realm's affairs beyond morality consistent with socialist thought. We need not actively combat religion; why fight a SYMPTOM of the disease? Fight the disease itself, and the symptoms go away. It is an opiate of the masses (religion), because an oppressed creature needs its outlets, and outlets are business opportunities for the bourgeoisie. So there you have it.
Show no respect to theocrats, zombies, misogynist "tough guys", and self-deprecating women who wish to serve men according to archaic texts. However, pay no mind to those who worship or believe without letting such action take consequence on political reasoning, or scientific or economic reasoning. Socialism's beginnings will initiate their transition into a completely harmless element of society. Religion taken as literal is a great stupidity, but it is the foundation, philosophically, of thought since the dawn of man. We are not here to eliminate religion (and thus rewrite history), but to interpret it as scientific socialists. So let's attack the active, dispensationalist, fundamentalist, theocratic, and fanatical elements, and let's leave the dialectic to wean off or tame the others.

This comrade Cuba Socialista is by far, the clearest elucidation on religion and socialism in this site. :D

[violencia.Proletariat]

People are drawn to forbidden fruit.

That assertion is completely worthless. I could say people if forbidden from drugs/sex/junk food would be going for it. But jumping off of tall buildings is forbidden yet I don't see a line for it.


Ladies and gents, the more attention we pay to religion, the more the "rebels" will be drawn to it.

Prove it. The fastest growing "belief" (or non belief system :P) is atheism/non religion. So where are all these people flocking to religion because of atheists?


Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature.

Yes and Marx was obviously not as dogmatic as he should have been in his oposition to religion. It's not just a "sigh", it's a REACTIONARY social force which perpetuates violence and ignorance.


There is no use in fighting passive religion, only theocracy and elements of religion with reactionary or exclusivist tendencies, or faiths that use doctrines such as "salvation" and "damnation" to harrass and intimidate non-believers.

Hmmm, I'd be hard pressed to find a religion with significant numbers that doesn't match that description :lol:


My point is, with the beginnings of socialism, will come the natural decline of religion.

Religion is already naturally declining, why would suppressing its reactionary elements that have influence on society change this?


We need not actively combat religion; why fight a SYMPTOM of the disease?

Are you suggesting religion is a symptom of capitalism? :lol: It has been oppressing people long before 1789 my friend.


because an oppressed creature needs its outlets

ahem...Revolution, fuck religion.


However, pay no mind to those who worship or believe without letting such action take consequence on political reasoning, or scientific or economic reasoning.

What the fuck? So your saying don't help these people question this? If we don't push scientific rationality then we are fucked because we will never rid ourselves of religion.


Socialism's beginnings will initiate their transition into a completely harmless element of society.

Not without suppression. Religion is harmless in the home but the problem is, it's spread like shit hit the fan.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by CubaSocialista+Jun 30 2006, 08:34 PM--> (CubaSocialista @ Jun 30 2006, 08:34 PM)
Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 30 2006, 06:04 PM
Religion is oppressive and immoral - just like racism. Simply turn to communist philosophy, such as writings by Marx of Bakunin, to discover the evils of religion. It cannot be part of the revolutionary movement because it will result in the movement's failure.
That's a moral absolutist judgement. Marxism is moral relativist, or Utilitarian. Religious people, like all people, fall into shades of grey. Some better than others, some worse, or "darker." The lighter shades can be friends in the progressive shifts. [/b]
I never said religious people cannot fall into different categories. However, religion itself promotes faith, as well as other things, and is harmful to a revolutionary movement.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor+Jul 1 2006, 02:28 PM--> (Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor @ Jul 1 2006, 02:28 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 08:34 PM

Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 30 2006, 06:04 PM
Religion is oppressive and immoral - just like racism. Simply turn to communist philosophy, such as writings by Marx of Bakunin, to discover the evils of religion. It cannot be part of the revolutionary movement because it will result in the movement's failure.
That's a moral absolutist judgement. Marxism is moral relativist, or Utilitarian. Religious people, like all people, fall into shades of grey. Some better than others, some worse, or "darker." The lighter shades can be friends in the progressive shifts.
I never said religious people cannot fall into different categories. However, religion itself promotes faith, as well as other things, and is harmful to a revolutionary movement. [/b]
Was Liberation Theology harmful to the movement?

What about Phillip Agee, the CIA agent turned Socialist who, because of his Catholic upbringing, could not bear to continue the coups, bribes, and sleights of hand of the CIA, and thus made the information clear to the whole world, and consequently joined OUR struggle?

In the fundamentals, there are indeed problems that religion will have with revolutionary progress. Perhaps ones that cannot be resolved. However, history resolves things, as we take action. Spirituality, is fine. Religion, is not. Religion divides man, but spirituality by definition avoids the uglier parts.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Religion quite frankly does not deserve respect.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:11 AM
Religion quite frankly does not deserve respect.
I agree entirely.

However, individual preferences in their own PERSONAL lives (and nowhere else) deserve ultimate respect as well.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by cubasocialista
What about Phillip Agee, the CIA agent turned Socialist who, because of his Catholic upbringing, could not bear to continue the coups, bribes, and sleights of hand of the CIA, and thus made the information clear to the whole world, and consequently joined OUR struggle?

What a crock of shit.

So according to you, Agee would not have been able realise the sociological shortcomings of the Imperialist machine if it were not for his "catholic upbringing"; or in other words "god's word".

No wonder you are defending the "faith"; you're a closet "worshipper".

Keep on truckin' esse, there may be a place for you by god's feet after all.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Bill Shatner+Jul 2 2006, 08:38 PM--> (Bill Shatner @ Jul 2 2006, 08:38 PM)
cubasocialista
What about Phillip Agee, the CIA agent turned Socialist who, because of his Catholic upbringing, could not bear to continue the coups, bribes, and sleights of hand of the CIA, and thus made the information clear to the whole world, and consequently joined OUR struggle?

What a crock of shit.

So according to you, Agee would not have been able realise the sociological shortcomings of the Imperialist machine if it were not for his "catholic upbringing"; or in other words "god's word".

No wonder you are defending the "faith"; you're a closet "worshipper".

Keep on truckin' esse, there may be a place for you by god's feet after all. [/b]
Hey Hey Hey!

I don't question your "loyalty" to this movement. Show some respect and don't question mine. Do not start a witch hunt by making baseless accusations, buddy.

And another thing. Law systems, civil services; all are rooted in ancient philosophies, which are more or less the pragmatic cousins of religion. Religion has made culture and nurtured infant man when there was no other explanation for things. Now, it's a vestigial organ, but shouldn't it only be bothered with; removed, if it is malevolent?

Why waste time combating the benign?



And as for me being a closet worshiper;
Go play in traffic.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I'm not questioning your loyalty to the movement, I'm questioning precisely what
movement you are "loyal" to.

Considering your extreme confusion in regard to religious history and its impact on the social conditions that exist today coupled with your irrational defense of modern religious oppression of the masses; it's safe to say that the Communist movement simply isn't your bag, homes.

"Vestigial organ" :lol:

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 4 2006, 10:54 PM
I'm not questioning your loyalty to the movement, I'm questioning precisely what
movement you are "loyal" to.

Considering your extreme confusion in regard to religious history and its impact on the social conditions that exist today coupled with your irrational defense of modern religious oppression of the masses; it's safe to say that the Communist movement simply isn't your bag, homes.

"Vestigial organ" :lol:
Maybe it was a bad example. To be honest, if it works for the movement, and it harms none, it works. I am willing to utilize every weapon in our arsenal, even if it includes some possibly religious comrades. I do not blanket all of religion with an absolute judgement of animosity. What works for the movement is essentially good.


Now, as per your questioning of "what movement you're in", I'll be the better person here, and not start an argument or flame war. Rather, by simply letting your comments be testament to your own arrogant self-righteousness.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by cuba "socialista"
To be honest, if it works for the movement, and it harms none, it works.

Again, what movement are you talking about?


I do not blanket all of religion with an absolute judgement of animosity.

Of course you wouldn't, you're religious.


Rather, by simply letting your comments be testament to your own arrogant self-righteousness.

That's rich. :lol:

How hard was it stabbing yourself in the back?

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Bill Shatner+Jul 5 2006, 05:57 PM--> (Bill Shatner @ Jul 5 2006, 05:57 PM)
cuba "socialista"
To be honest, if it works for the movement, and it harms none, it works.

Again, what movement are you talking about?


I do not blanket all of religion with an absolute judgement of animosity.

Of course you wouldn't, you're religious.


Rather, by simply letting your comments be testament to your own arrogant self-righteousness.

That's rich. :lol:

How hard was it stabbing yourself in the back? [/b]
Just because you have a sharp tongue doesn't mean you have a sharp mind.


Secondly, I am NOT religious, and I do not believe there is anything beyond this, though I accept the possibility. I resent the accusation, and the condescending banter. You only live once. Live it well, but live it for others too.


Let's drop it, now, shall we? This won't yield any results, when we are both arguing over baseless mutual suspicions.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by cubasocialista
just because you have a sharp tongue doesn't mean you have a sharp mind.

As they say, we know ourselves better than anyone else.


I am NOT religious, and I do not believe there is anything beyond this

"though I accept the possibility."[of an afterlife] :lol:

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Bill Shatner+Jul 5 2006, 08:51 PM--> (Bill Shatner @ Jul 5 2006, 08:51 PM)
cubasocialista
just because you have a sharp tongue doesn't mean you have a sharp mind.

As they say, we know ourselves better than anyone else.


I am NOT religious, and I do not believe there is anything beyond this

"though I accept the possibility."[of an afterlife] :lol: [/b]
If you have absolute infallible evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

We know the chances of an afterlife are the same as a duck spontaneously appearing on my keyboard as I write this. But, it is not my place to make absolutely confident denials of things I cannot say I don't know much about.

[Vinny Rafarino]

A completely illogical, irrational, immaterialistic and uncommunistic point of view.

Do us all a favour, toss your "card" in garbage.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 6 2006, 05:34 PM
A completely illogical, irrational, immaterialistic and uncommunistic point of view.

Do us all a favour, toss your "card" in garbage.
Umm, no.

I have to wonder how open-minded YOU are, what YOUR credentials are, and how long YOU'VE been a communist.

I have a Utilitarian Marxist-Leninist point of view. I'm willing to compromise and make alliances of convenience to achieve my aims. I will help any force with a common goal if it increases the chance that that goal is reached.



In respect to organized religion, just let it die on it's own, but actively discourage it.
My opinion on religion is that of the Republic Of Cuba's.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by CS-BS
I have to wonder how open-minded YOU are, what YOUR credentials are, and how long YOU'VE been a communist.


Not open minded at all. I have zero tolerance for the ruling class and its machines.

Credentials? Sorry bub, having a "Communist party card" is stupid.

How long have I been a Communist? Longer than you have been alive.


I have a Utilitarian Marxist-Leninist point of view. I'm willing to compromise and make alliances of convenience to achieve my aims. I will help any force with a common goal if it increases the chance that that goal is reached.



Like I said, toss out your "card"; there's a bright future for you in bourgeoise politics.



In respect to organized religion, just let it die on it's own, but actively discourage it. My opinion on religion is that of the Republic Of Cuba's

That's a stupid mistake.

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 08:15 PM
One thing my father once said about our family was "We respect all religions but practice none." When I thought about it, it sounded like an intelligent thing to say but I did not believe it. I don't respect religion and I haven't for a long time, and as for those who practice it I'm not sure. Sometimes I am indifferent but sometimes I feel like they are weak and foolish. I do have many friends (my girlfriend too) who are religious, but I don't really think about it much. I usually connect religion with the ignorant masses, not with people I know personally.

Now what I was wondering was, as leftists, we may not like and/or practice religion, but should we at least have respect for it?
We need to respect people's faith, but not religion, religion is just a scam

[violencia.Proletariat]

We need to respect people's faith

Why?

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Bill Shatner+Jul 8 2006, 07:28 PM--> (Bill Shatner @ Jul 8 2006, 07:28 PM)
CS-BS
I have to wonder how open-minded YOU are, what YOUR credentials are, and how long YOU'VE been a communist.


Not open minded at all. I have zero tolerance for the ruling class and its machines.

Credentials? Sorry bub, having a "Communist party card" is stupid.

How long have I been a Communist? Longer than you have been alive.


I have a Utilitarian Marxist-Leninist point of view. I'm willing to compromise and make alliances of convenience to achieve my aims. I will help any force with a common goal if it increases the chance that that goal is reached.



Like I said, toss out your "card"; there's a bright future for you in bourgeoise politics.



In respect to organized religion, just let it die on it's own, but actively discourage it. My opinion on religion is that of the Republic Of Cuba's

That's a stupid mistake. [/b]
Well then, we differ fundamentally and have no business arguing with each other.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 08:26 PM
I know where you're coming from, Avtomat, but there is no need to introduce the chimera of the soul. What exactly is a soul, how does it differ from mechanics? You're begging the question somewhat. :)
-Alex
Maybe it doesnt. Maybe god is really math.
Maybe communism is not opposed to nature, which is dictated by math.

Shit aint as complicated as it looks.

[Herman]

I know one thing for sure: Religion should be abolished as soon as possible.

[Dyst]

In most western cultures, people are getting smarter and smarter, therefore leaving organized religion for forms of spiritualism or atheism.

This is a fact. I haven't seen the numbers for the U.S. but according to the extreme anti-religion stance most of the american members have (lol) I can imagine US being an exception. But I'm sure it will follow this trend also, sooner or later.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 08:14 AM
In most western cultures, people are getting smarter and smarter, therefore leaving organized religion for forms of spiritualism or atheism.

This is a fact. I haven't seen the numbers for the U.S. but according to the extreme anti-religion stance most of the american members have (lol) I can imagine US being an exception. But I'm sure it will follow this trend also, sooner or later.
Two areas to comment on here.

One of the main examples people point at for a religious society becoming more secular is Great Britain. While church attendance, fervor, and religious affiliation is on the decline there, there isn't any corresponding growth in rational or scientific humanism. It seems to be more the effect of boredom rather than enlightenment or intelligence.

Separate from that, there is an interesting phenomenon there, which is the development of a people who, though Atheist or Agnostic (23.1%), are "culturally" Christian (by their own admission). Very weird, but it is an idea. Pacify the masses by reducing religion to mere cultural tradition. Like a style of cooking. Thai cuisine enslaves no one.

Great Britain is a unique situation in the "Christian" world, because of the dear old C of E. Laid back, fairly progressive, and thus easy to walk away from on amicable terms and become an Atheist or Agnostic. Too bad the C of E isn't the dominant church in the U.S., we'd be in better shape. More and more I think the Revolutionary War was a mistake.

On to the United States (I almost said America... hate it when I or others do that, kick myself each time I do... *kick*).

Sadly, the U.S. is not following the Western secular trend. The Atheist/Agnostic segment has remained stable at 10% (1986, 1998, 2002, all the same). Fundamentalism is on the rise, as in intolerance. Of course, some denominations are becoming more tolerant and progressive, more power to them. But on the whole, the Bible Belt is making a comeback. Consequence of rising fascism, racism, xenophobia, intolerance, etc. people are clinging more to "my way or the highway." It is not looking good. Though the percentages may be stable, the intensity is increasing.

And I think this trend in the U.S. will continue for the foreseeable future (next 35 years). Not good, very worrying.

2002 data on the U.S. (CIA World Factbook): Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10%