U Of Co Plans To Fire Churchill

[Capitalist Lawyer]

University of Colorado plans to fire Churchill

By Jennifer Brown
Denver Post Staff Writer
www.denverpost.com/ci_3982474


The interim chancellor of the University of Colorado at Boulder announced today that CU wants to fire ethnic studies professor Ward Churchill.

"Today I issued to Professor Churchill a notice of intent to dismiss him from his faculty position here at the University of Colorado," said Phil DiStefano at a press conference.

Churchill has 10 days to appeal.

"A university is a marketplace of ideas, a place where controversy is no stranger...indeed one of our most cherished principals is academic freedom, the right to pursue and disseminate knowledge without threat of sanction," said DiStefano. "But with freedom comes responsibility."

After DiStefano's announcement, Gov. Bill Owens, a longtime Churchill critic, released a statement.

“I applaud the chancellor's decision to proceed with the dismissal of Ward Churchill," Owens said. "If a university is a marketplace of ideas, then Mr. Churchill is the rotten fruit among hundreds of good apples. Hopefully, we can soon say good riddance to Ward Churchill once and for all.”

A university committee that investigates academic misconduct recommended two weeks ago that Churchill be fired for a "pattern of repeated, intentional misrepresentation."

In a secret ballot, six committee members recommended dismissal and three recommended suspension without pay. Two of the three recommended a five-year suspension and one a two-year suspension.

In a 20-page report, the committee agreed with a May investigative committee report that Churchill intentionally falsified his research, plagiarized other people's work and ghostwrote articles and then cited them to buttress his work.

Churchill and his attorney have threatened to sue CU if he is fired. They accuse the university of retaliating against the tenured professor because of his essay saying some World Trade Center terrorism victims were not innocent and comparing them to a Nazi bureaucrat.

Churchill said at the time that the investigative committee's report read like a warning to other scholars to "lay low."

"Do not challenge orthodoxy," Churchill wrote in his response to the committee. "If you do, expect to be targeted for elimination and understand that the university will not be constrained by its own rules - or the Constitution - in its attempts to silence you."

[KC]

Hooray for freedom of speech!

[theraven]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 28 2006, 04:33 PM
Hooray for freedom of speech!
lets look at why they fired him....



In a 20-page report, the committee agreed with a May investigative committee report that Churchill intentionally falsified his research, plagiarized other people's work and ghostwrote articles and then cited them to buttress his work.

[Abolish Communism]

What was weird to me about his statement was that it included the comment that those working at WTC were engaged in "profit". He made the statement as though ALL of us (or in this case, his students) are supposed to know and accept that profit is a wrongful thing. While I realize that Marxists believe this is so, it's strange to me that he assumes that we all know and believe this to be the case.

Speaking to a group of American youths in Colorado, he may as well have said, "And some of them were the relatives of John Elway, and you all know how much we hate him."

I wonder what he was smoking to think that all of his students associate profit with "a bad thing".

[saint max]

I find the most interesting thing about Ward getting fired from CU, is that the quote that sparks the controversy in the essay "Some people push back" in his book On the Justice of Roosting Chickens is actually a quote from John Zerzan's Elements of Resistance, written a few years prior.


TheRaven said:...falsified his research, plagiarized other people's work and ghostwrote articles and then cited them to buttress his work.

You're right, that is what they are claiming. But It would mock history, to read this out of the context of Owen's hatred, and the Moderate Right-wing's offensive on so-called "liberal" universities and of course, wards own radical history and the fact that his essays have been a rallying point for anarchists connecting with Indigenous struggles. Ironically even they read Churchhill wrong, claiming he's a marxist or typical liberal. No, Ward Churchill is public enemy number one, in regards to audacity within academia, but it's because of his fierce anti-authoritarian indigenism and anti-colonialism, not marxism.

Nonetheless, the legal costs are totally going to fuck the school and the state and if he's actually kicked out of CU, you think Evergreen is'nt going to take him or some other university full of radical academics?

PS: plagerized others work does'nt count if it's anti-copywrite and ghostwriting and citing your self is not an uncommon phenomenon within academia and critical theory. A lot of things are meant to sound a lot worse than they are. I'd do a bit of research of the particular texts he's being indicted on.

kisses,
-Liam

[Publius]

PS: plagerized others work does'nt count if it's anti-copywrite

That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.

First of all, most forms of copyleft (all that I know of, please tell if I'm wrong) require you to mention the original author.

Second, how many research papers are published copyleft in the first place?

Third, even if you are allowed to use the work without citing an author, you still have to reference your sources.

You have to reference things in the public domain, for example.

Were you never taught this in school, or are you just making shit up to defend some hack job of a professor who never held an original or worthwhile view in his life?

Tell me, what are his great theories?



and ghostwriting and citing your self is not an uncommon phenomenon within academia and critical theory.

Which is why 'critical theory' is load of bullshit and a masturbatory wank-fest for psuedo-intellectual crackpots who couldn't cut in a field where they had to construct and defend actual positions.


A lot of things are meant to sound a lot worse than they are.

Like your criticism of capitalism.

Oops, I guess you didn't mean that, did you?


I'd do a bit of research of the particular texts he's being indicted on.

You 'would', except you won't.

[Publius]

his essays have been a rallying point for anarchists connecting with Indigenous struggles

Really?

What 'indigenous struggles' would you be talking about?

The ones that happened over 100 years ago, and are thus irrelevent? You think Ward is the first to draw a parrelel between one group of communistics and another?

Or the ones happening today, where Natives are trying to get the government that anarchists don't think should exist to give them money.

Yeah, a lot of parrelels between "Please government, give us $200 million dollars" and "Down with the government."

And I've never seen a single 'anarchist' or 'native' ever seriously reference him anywhere.

[PRC-UTE]

This makes everyone happy; the fake Indian Ward Churchill can moan that he's oppressed, fascist america will be pleased and we communists can laugh at how hollow 'free speech' is. :D

[Abolish Communism]

we communists can laugh at how hollow 'free speech' is


PRC-UTE:

This is a perfect example of the exception that proves the rule.

Obviously you believe that Americans have a GREAT freedom of speech (which, of course, they do), because if we didn't have such freedom, this professor's firing wouldn't be a big deal, but something that happens every day.

If what you wrote were true, you would be able to write a list of all of the professors who lost their jobs in the United states SINCE September 11, 2001. According to you, freedom of speech is hollow, and therefore is fake, and you can prove it with a whole list of people who lost their jobs due to freedom of speech issues in 2005 and 2006. Come on, list them.

But the issue is more complex than that. Our freedom of speech does not mean everywhere and at all times, and not necessarily during company time.

If I pay you to build an addition onto my house, and you use the 8 hours a day you work to contantly shout your political views at me, your First Amendment Rights will not prevent me from firing you.

Of course, college professors have a greater latitude, and need it for their lecures. But still one can get fired. What about a Klansman who teaches the inferiority of blacks and jews at a public university? Should his tenture protect that? Freedom of speech has boundaries, naturally. I don't liven in Colorado, so I can only speak in general terms, not in the specific case of Churchill

[saint max]

Pubilus, before you make a total fool of your self, you ought to read Churchill's "Marxism and Native Americans"--a ciritcal look at marxist modes through a pro-indigenous lens.


What 'indigenous struggles' would you be talking about?
the one that disolves the US govt... Have you read The Justice of roosting Chickens? or any of Ward's works?


And I've never seen a single 'anarchist' or 'native' ever seriously reference him anywhere.

Perhaps you ought to read just about anything written having to do with colonial/post-colonial studies or revolutionary violence in last 6 years. For instance, "How non-violence Protects the State(05-signalfire press)" as a starter.


Like your criticism of capitalism.

And what is my critcism of capitalism?


You 'would', except you won't.

I'm not sure how you want to be to interact with this statement. My original comment was "A lot of things are meant to sound a lot worse than they are. I'd do a bit of research of the particular texts he's being indicted on." It was a suggestion. Perhaps english is not your first langauge. Sorry, if that confusing. What I meant was perhaps, you should do a bit of research on the particular texts that were supposedly miscited or plagerized.


Which is why 'critical theory' is load of bullshit and a masturbatory wank-fest for psuedo-intellectual crackpots who couldn't cut in a field where they had to construct and defend actual positions.

Ha. You say this with a, what...BA/ MA in marketing? Come on...

...And what particular discipline is'nt masturbatory?

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 29 2006, 04:38 AM

we communists can laugh at how hollow 'free speech' is

Obviously you believe that Americans have a GREAT freedom of speech (which, of course, they do), because if we didn't have such freedom, this professor's firing wouldn't be a big deal, but something that happens every day.

If what you wrote were true, you would be able to write a list of all of the professors who lost their jobs in the United states SINCE September 11, 2001. According to you, freedom of speech is hollow, and therefore is fake, and you can prove it with a whole list of people who lost their jobs due to freedom of speech issues in 2005 and 2006. Come on, list them.
Those aren't the only two possibilities- that either 'not very many' prof's are purged for their politics which somehow proves free speech or I demonstrate that many have been fired so that means there isn't. The other possibility is that most prof's don't express left wing views out of desire to protect their careers, and those who do are never promoted, so no purge is necessary. Michael Parenti documented his harrassment as a university prof very well.


But the issue is more complex than that. Our freedom of speech does not mean everywhere and at all times, and not necessarily during company time.

If I pay you to build an addition onto my house, and you use the 8 hours a day you work to contantly shout your political views at me, your First Amendment Rights will not prevent me from firing you.

Yes, you're correct. In the USA, you don't have constitutional rights outside of public / government life, and those are pretty much gone anyway (not that they ever existed for communists and anarchists in the USA). The rules that exist for private companies aren't enforced (such as the 40 hour week) or were eliminated alltogether (such as the telecommunications act that did away with most regulations for media).

Thank you for providing me with such a good example. 'Free speech' is one of the biggest myths in modern times. It's actually so restrictive that in parts of the USA you can be in legal trouble for selling newspapers or pamphlets without a license.



Of course, college professors have a greater latitude, and need it for their lecures. But still one can get fired. What about a Klansman who teaches the inferiority of blacks and jews at a public university? Should his tenture protect that? Freedom of speech has boundaries, naturally. I don't liven in Colorado, so I can only speak in general terms, not in the specific case of Churchill

Americans like to talk about 'free speech' a lot but the USA is actually more restrictive on free speech and has a lot less protection of privacy than most other first world countries.

[imperialist]

I've heard of this guy before. He is a moron. He is engaged in 'profit' no doubt as he is getting paid so I guess he should have been in the WTC with the other profiteers.

Nevertheless, he should be allowed to say what he thinks. This is what makes America wonderful - free speech, something lacking in all 'progressive' nations for some wierd reason.... I know, its because they hate America and free-speech is an American invention.

[Publius]

Pubilus, before you make a total fool of your self, you ought to read Churchill's "Marxism and Native Americans"--a ciritcal look at marxist modes through a pro-indigenous lens.


Why ought I to read it?

Why is this guy notable?

Is this one of the works he plagarized?



the one that disolves the US govt... Have you read The Justice of roosting Chickens? or any of Ward's works?

I don't know of any that 'disolve' the US government. And I'm the one who doesn't know English?

No, I haven't read any of Ward's books and I never will because he's not worth the time.



Perhaps you ought to read just about anything written having to do with colonial/post-colonial studies or revolutionary violence in last 6 years.

Yes, rigorous fields of study, those.

Forgive me if I exlude myself from 'post-colonial studies' and 'revolutionary violence'.

Tell me, how does he prove his claims? What studies does he reference?

To does he merely make a bunch of assertions vaguely defended by emotional handwringing?



And what is my critcism of capitalism?

Criticism of capitalism in general; I'm assuming you're critical of it, since you support Ward.



I'm not sure how you want to be to interact with this statement.

Because you're an imbecile.

But let's try to move past that.


My original comment was "A lot of things are meant to sound a lot worse than they are. I'd do a bit of research of the particular texts he's being indicted on." It was a suggestion.

Yes, and my response was a joke.

Note the highlighted sections, and see how they apply to your sentence. Read it a few times, if you have to:

You 'would', except you won't.

Taking something literally that was meant figuratively (your "I'd") is a way to make a witticism.

I'll try not to be witty from now on, to spare you the trouble.



Perhaps english is not your first langauge. Sorry, if that confusing. What I meant was perhaps, you should do a bit of research on the particular texts that were supposedly miscited or plagerized.

You seem to be the one confused.



Ha. You say this with a, what...BA/ MA in marketing? Come on...

...And what particular discipline is'nt masturbatory?

None yet, just clarity of mind enough to know that 'Indigenous Studies' is a bullshit field where no real study is done.

None at all.

[Abolish Communism]

Thank you for providing me with such a good example. 'Free speech' is one of the biggest myths in modern times. It's actually so restrictive that in parts of the USA you can be in legal trouble for selling newspapers or pamphlets without a license.


QUOTE

Of course, college professors have a greater latitude, and need it for their lecures. But still one can get fired. What about a Klansman who teaches the inferiority of blacks and jews at a public university? Should his tenture protect that? Freedom of speech has boundaries, naturally. I don't liven in Colorado, so I can only speak in general terms, not in the specific case of Churchill



Americans like to talk about 'free speech' a lot but the USA is actually more restrictive on free speech and has a lot less protection of privacy than most other first world countries.


You are very wrong about a lot of what you wrote:

First of all, the fact that you sell ANYTHING can place you in the category of having to pay a local (not federal) fee for license. BUT, the Supreme Court has ruled that on parks and sidewalks, even around the areas outside corporate buildings, one has the First Amendment Rights to distribute FOR FREE, ANY, REPEAT ANY, newspaper, pamphlet, etc., and this distribution CAN NOT be stopped. The landmark case involved people passing out advertisements for strippers (i.e., prostitutes) on Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, Nevada. (We call this "The Strip") The city passed a local law called an ordinance disallowing the distribution, but the Court ruled the law unconstitutional.

But "selling" something is different. If you're asking for money the presumption is that you wish to raise money, and that makes your transaction commercial and a different ball of wax entirely.

And your statement that Americans have less Free Speech than other nations is absurd. I won't even rebutt it, but I would like to know your source. I think you made that up.

Also, MOST of our professors at our public schools are left wing. (I may be left wing for all you know.) Most would support a FAR GREATER social program for citizens in medical coverage, housing subsidies, and food programs. That has been documented. My older sister has a socialist as one of her history professors.
Revolutionaries are another matter. They are rare here, because to be a PUBLIC school instructor requires you swear allegence to the Constitution of the United States of America (if you are a citizen), and there is a different affirmation for a visiting instructor. (Now, this is the case where I live in California, I don't know what the other 49 states do.) This oath does require some reflection.

I wonder whether Colorado has the same requirement. If so, how did Ward Churchill reconcile this in his heart if he signed something like it. It appears by his other writings that he supports the destruction of the United States. Weird that he should then want a public school job. It doesn't make sense to me.

[Tungsten]

saint max

read Churchill's "Marxism and Native Americans"--a ciritcal look at marxist modes through a pro-indigenous lens.
Once you've read one bogus noble-savage story, you've read them all.

the one that disolves the US govt... Have you read The Justice of roosting Chickens? or any of Ward's works?
Are you trying to suggest that the native Indians will one day dissolve the US government?

[Dyst]

I know, its because they hate America and free-speech is an American invention.


Read a book lately?

[red team]

Once you've read one bogus noble-savage story, you've read them all.

define: savage

define: noble

next measure the relative level of violence of European Settlers and Native Americans.

I think the conclusion is obvious as to who is "noble" and who is "savage" relatively speaking.

[Tungsten]

red team

define: savage
Someone who advocates death matches, connecting electrodes to people etc.

define: noble
Someone who dislikes those who advoacate the above.

next measure the relative level of violence of European Settlers and Native Americans.
Measured how? From what statistics?

[LSD]

Originally posted by Denver Post
University of Colorado plans to fire Churchill

...YAWN...

Another self-important "radical" professor gets himself fired... Seriously, who gives a fuck?

Ward "I'm indian ...no really" Churchill is a useless pseudo-intellectual blowhard with very little relevent to say about anything.

Yeah, it's all well and good that he sparked controversy and pissed of the American right wing, but Sadaam Hussein also pissed off the American right wing, that doesn't mean he's not a complete waste of space.

Plagiarism and "secretly citing himself" (you gotta love that one! :D) sound right up this asshole's ally and I have no problem with his narcisistic ass getting canned.


Once you've read one bogus noble-savage story, you've read them all.

As retiscent as I am to agree with Tungsten, when it comes to Churchill and his "anlyses", he's absolutely right.

People really need to stop "reimagining" Native American culture and come to grips with the fact that the first nations were just like every other "nation" on earth: artificial, oppressive, and made up of human beings.

This "noble-savage" reconstruction of the "brave" and "communistic" "indian" is historical revisionism of the worst kind. It not only does a disservice to the field of history, but it's an insult to the real Native Americans who actually lived.

The Europeans massacred a people, they didn't kill angels. And artificially seperating Native Americans from the rest of humanity, making them out to be "special" or "different" is just another way of avoiding the reality of the American genocide.

There was no "communistic Paradise" in pre-Colombian America, there were just a bunch of people trying to live out their very hard, very real lives. To ignore that reality is to blur their lives out of existance and in so doing "sanitize" the crime of their deaths.

The 19th century is over; there is no such thing as a "noble savage"!


to be a PUBLIC school instructor requires you swear allegence to the Constitution of the United States of America (if you are a citizen), and there is a different affirmation for a visiting instructor.

:o

Wow, that's remarkably creepy. And to think people still claim that the United States is the "land of the free". (:lol:) I guess I'll have to add this "required loyalty oath" to the enormous pile of Reasons I Don't Visit the US.

Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world? I mean "loyalty oaths" to teach at a school? WTF???

[Abolish Communism]

the enormous pile of Reasons I Don't Visit the US

Stay whereever you are...we won't suffer your absence. :D



Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world?

Probably THE dumbest thing I've read here (though I'm a newbie). Considering millions immigrate here, and no other nation on earth can compete with our record of those who have become citizens. :lol:


People in nations outside of the U.S.: :ph34r:

Those who have become Americans: :)

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 29 2006, 11:04 PM

Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world?

Probably THE dumbest thing I've read here (though I'm a newbie). Considering millions immigrate here, and no other nation on earth can compete with our record of those who have become citizens. :lol:


People in nations outside of the U.S.: :ph34r:

Those who have become Americans: :)


Most of those immagrants come from countries that have been fucked over by capitalism, most citizens of 'ruling class nations' stay where they are and don't emegrate.

Thankfully a lot of your nation is just a joke. Especially the patriotism shit you blindly follow with your reverence for a flag. A fucking flag. Even the nationalist brits I know don't bother with 'don't let the flag touch the ground' type bollocks. Oh and you consider Evoolution vs Intellegent Design to be a worthwile debate. No wonder the world thinks of america as a land of cretins.

[LSD]

Stay whereever you are...!

With enormous pleasure.

At least up here, no one's trying to make me swear "loyalty" to anything just to get a job. Plus, I don't have to empty my bank account every time I see a doctor.

You may not want to accept it, but there are many better places to live than the United States. Indeed, according to every study ever conducted, the best places to live in the world all have at least one thing in common, they're not in the US!

http://www.aneki.com/best.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4306936.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4020523.stm
http://www.travelersdigest.com/best_cities_live.htm


Probably THE dumbest thing I've read here (though I'm a newbie). Considering millions immigrate here

Millions immigrate everwhere. But no country is as universally loathed (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/14/world/14pew.html?ex=1307937600&en=a94e96e038de0fe7&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) as the United States.


and no other nation on earth can compete with our record of those who have become citizens.

:blink:

um....that's just not true.

Canada, Belgium, Germany, France, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden all have higher naturalization rates than the United States.

Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself (http://www.sidos.ch/method/rc28/abstracts/Gary%20Sandefur.pdf)!

[PRC-UTE]

LSD just pwned the american nationalists.

Not that it's hard or anything, but still a good laugh. :D

[red team]

define: savage
Someone who advocates death matches, connecting electrodes to people etc.

I don't have to answer to revolutionary violence. For one thing, it will be unlikely for me to be a direct particpant in the events so it will be left for the directly oppressed and exploited layers of society to decide their actions. My suggestions are inconsequential.

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2006305350629.gif

Or maybe not. :lol:



define: noble
Someone who dislikes those who advoacate the above.

Unless it interferes with your private property holdings.

Actually, nevermind that. Even if natives have a claim to land because generations have lived there, but there's the potential for large profits like opening up a luxury resort or mining operation, it's entirely justified to wipe out whole native villages.

Or being a "peaceful" libertarian that you are, you starve them out or blockade them. The land around the native villages are afterall not technically their land. You don't want to look too much like an aggressor being that you're an advocate "liberty" now would you?

We know your noble position.



next measure the relative level of violence of European Settlers and Native Americans.
Measured how? From what statistics?

Being that statistics is a branch of math for determining the correlation between real-world events, there's every reason to regard statistics when used to correlate historical events like the arrival of European settlers and the subsequent decline of the native population of America as reliable.

So what could account for such a dramatic decline in population? Could it be genocide?
Again, answer is obvious.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 29 2006, 01:20 PM
Revolutionaries are another matter. They are rare here, because to be a PUBLIC school instructor requires you swear allegence to the Constitution of the United States of America (if you are a citizen), and there is a different affirmation for a visiting instructor. (Now, this is the case where I live in California, I don't know what the other 49 states do.) This oath does require some reflection.
Yeah, we're saying the same thing. Except you actually gave me a concrete example of what I meant by 'most prof's don't express left wing views out of desire to protect their careers, and those who do are never promoted, so no purge is necessary.'

Why does your land of the free require loyalty oaths? :lol: :lol: :lol:

The only other place I've heard of that is the six counties, where they make catholics take loyalty oaths if they want to join the civil service.

[Abolish Communism]

Most of those immagrants come from countries that have been fucked over by capitalism, most citizens of 'ruling class nations' stay where they are and don't emegrate.

Thankfully a lot of your nation is just a joke. Especially the patriotism shit you blindly follow with your reverence for a flag. A fucking flag. Even the nationalist brits I know don't bother with 'don't let the flag touch the ground' type bollocks. Oh and you consider Evoolution vs Intellegent Design to be a worthwile debate. No wonder the world thinks of america as a land of cretins.


Laughable horseshit. What did you say in this other than you don't like our flag. Don't fly it. We fly three of them and are proud to do so. It's a free country. At least ours is. Re: Evolution v. Intellignet Design: who cares what a couple of states do out of 50. All you're doing is showing that you didn't know that each state controls its education system, and it isn't an "American" issue. America the land of cretins? Maybe your neck of the woods.


You may not want to accept it, but there are many better places to live than the United States. Indeed, according to every study ever conducted, the best places to live in the world all have at least one thing in common, they're not in the US!

Again, you've topped your previous absurd comment. If this were so, no one would come, immigrate, or nationalize. No one!


Millions immigrate everwhere. But no country is as universally loathed as the United States.


QUOTE
and no other nation on earth can compete with our record of those who have become citizens.





um....that's just not true.

Canada, Belgium, Germany, France, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden all have higher naturalization rates than the United States.

Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself!


Wrong about everything you wrote. Is your comparisson some "per capita" nonsense. Then any country with the population of 20 beats us if 5 immigrate?
ZZZZZzzzzzz.

I read your report about America losing standing in the opinion of the world. I didn't read the words, "universally loathed". I think that's your view. Think about what you just wrote. If those two words were the case, no one would let us in their countries. Not to do business, not to work, not to visit.

Apparently the recent poor decisions of our government has, I'm sorry to say for you, failed to become the Anti-American bonanza you'd thought it would be.

Whatever country you're in, do YOU see Americans and yell hate speaches at them? Do you pick fights with them. How do YOU express to them your universal LOATHING of them?

Don't forget to fly the Stars and Stripes next Tuesday. I can tell when someone talks hate about something so much that they have to love the thing.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 30 2006, 04:11 AM

Most of those immagrants come from countries that have been fucked over by capitalism, most citizens of 'ruling class nations' stay where they are and don't emegrate.

Thankfully a lot of your nation is just a joke. Especially the patriotism shit you blindly follow with your reverence for a flag. A fucking flag. Even the nationalist brits I know don't bother with 'don't let the flag touch the ground' type bollocks. Oh and you consider Evoolution vs Intellegent Design to be a worthwile debate. No wonder the world thinks of america as a land of cretins.


Laughable horseshit. What did you say in this other than you don't like our flag. Don't fly it. We fly three of them and are proud to do so. It's a free country. At least ours is. Re: Evolution v. Intellignet Design: who cares what a couple of states do out of 50. All you're doing is showing that you didn't know that each state controls its education system, and it isn't an "American" issue. America the land of cretins? Maybe your neck of the woods.
I'm now going to do what you did with LSD and ingnore anything you said I don't like. Well, yes it appears you are one of those amercan retards. "We flarh tree whole flayags!" jesus. Does one of them happen to be the rebel flag because I do get a certian sense of the hick emenating from you. I do know that each state controls its education system. I also know you guys had to pass a federal law to stop creationism being taught thus creating a need for ID as way of teaching creationsim through a legal loophole and the debate has been taken to the supreme court.

I don't think anyone is more hated by the rest of the world. A lot of Americans claim to be Canadian when on holiday so that no one bothers them. I could go anywhere in Europe and say "Americans! All filthy idiots!" and get a round of drinks brought for me. Same is true anywhere in the world where I can communicate with the locals and there is a place for a round of drinks to be brought for me.

[Abolish Communism]

Jazzratt, Sorry, no Rebel flag (I presume you mean the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia from the Civil War). But have a drink on me. Say filthy American idiots. We're coming up to that time we celebrate our Revolution we had to separate from your country.

Oh, that's right...America HAD a revolution, but you commies haven't had a REAL one yet. Well, guess you'll have to settle for Stalin. Good man to back there. I'm sure everyone in England would RUN to live in a nation run by him, instead of the United States.

Keep Trying. (And drink up. You've got to get through another day!)

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 30 2006, 11:43 AM
Jazzratt, Sorry, no Rebel flag (I presume you mean the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia from the Civil War). But have a drink on me. Say filthy American idiots. We're coming up to that time we celebrate our Revolution we had to separate from your country.

If I gave a shit about my country, I think maybe I would care. However I don't. And yes I was refering to the battle flag for the Army of Northern Virginia. Yes you guys had a revolution and it pretty much brought in a new system that was, economically speaking, the same as the old one.



Oh, that's right...America HAD a revolution, but you commies haven't had a REAL one yet. Well, guess you'll have to settle for Stalin. Good man to back there. I'm sure everyone in England would RUN to live in a nation run by him, instead of the United States.

Keep Trying. (And drink up. You've got to get through another day!)

Except Stalin didn't stage a revolution. That would be Lenin. Oh and that face you see behind the little white text box you type your cretinous messages into? That's a revolutionary right there.
Once again you fail. (I wouldn't accept a drink from you, not because I dislike you but because it would most likley be that watery piss you guys try to pass off as beer.)

[Abolish Communism]

Same is true anywhere in the world where I can communicate with the locals and there is a place for a round of drinks to be brought for me.

Yeah, all you do is tell them you hate America's war in Iraq, and that you can't imagine why any country would support it.

Then you tell them you're from England.

Doh!



wouldn't accept a drink from you, not because I dislike you but because it would most likley be that watery piss you guys try to pass off as beer.

Try J.D. One of our best. (Though my dad likes Glenlivet these days, just north of you.)

[Tungsten]

red team

I don't have to answer to revolutionary violence. For one thing, it will be unlikely for me to be a direct particpant in the events so it will be left for the directly oppressed and exploited layers of society to decide their actions. My suggestions are inconsequential.
Should a sucessful revolution ever occur, it's most likely you'll be dancing the "electrode fandango" when another rival group of communists take over.

Unless it interferes with your private property holdings.
True, I do advocate blowing people away who interfere with private property holdings. Torture certainly isn't on the cards, though.

Actually, nevermind that. Even if natives have a claim to land because generations have lived there, but there's the potential for large profits like opening up a luxury resort or mining operation, it's entirely justified to wipe out whole native villages.
No.

Or being a "peaceful" libertarian that you are, you starve them out or blockade them. The land around the native villages are afterall not technically their land. You don't want to look too much like an aggressor being that you're an advocate "liberty" now would you?
Which part of "don't initiate the use of force" don't you understand?

Being that statistics is a branch of math for determining the correlation between real-world events, there's every reason to regard statistics when used to correlate historical events like the arrival of European settlers and the subsequent decline of the native population of America as reliable.

So what could account for such a dramatic decline in population? Could it be genocide?
Again, answer is obvious.
How did they know the indian population was dramatically declining? Did the natives conduct censuses? Or are you jumping on another hoary anti-western bandwagon?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 30 2006, 12:03 PM

Same is true anywhere in the world where I can communicate with the locals and there is a place for a round of drinks to be brought for me.

Yeah, all you do is tell them you hate America's war in Iraq, and that you can't imagine why any country would support it.

Then you tell them you're from England.

Doh
Don't know a lot do you? English people, especially as ex-pats and immagrants are one of the most respected nationalities. If I say "...and Blair's a wanker" that's another free round.



!
wouldn't accept a drink from you, not because I dislike you but because it would most likley be that watery piss you guys try to pass off as beer.

Try J.D. One of our best. (Though my dad likes Glenlivet these days, just north of you.)
Pfeh. American whiskey is alchoholic syrup (that said Jim Beam, Southern Comfort and Knob Creek can make a nice drink if I'm desperate.). Glenlivet is a nice drink, although I enjoy most any scotch whisky.

(A bit off topic there.)

[LSD]

Again, you've topped your previous absurd comment. If this were so, no one would come, immigrate, or nationalize. No one!

Nonsense.

There are many countries with worse living standards than the United States, so obviously people living in those countries would prefer to move to the US.

That doesn't mean that there aren't, by the same token. many countries with higher living standards than the United States. Indeed, as I just proved in every single study ever done on the subject, the United States consistantly fails to rank in even the top 5.

And, hey, if you don't believe me, do the research for yourself. Seriously, go do a Google search and check it out. I'll wait. Really.


Wrong about everything you wrote.

Evidence?


Is your comparisson some "per capita" nonsense. Then any country with the population of 20 beats us if 5 immigrate?
ZZZZZzzzzzz.

:huh: um... how many countries are there with a "population of 20"? And if you don't want to use per capita measurement, what do you want to use?

Obviously the only way top measure naturalization is to calculate what percentage of immigrants become citizens every year. In the US, that figure is about 2.9. In say Sweden, howver, it's closer to 6.

I suppose you could measure by absolute figures but that would be a very inaccurate way of looking it at it. The United States happens to be a large country, that means it has a lot of immigrants. But as a percentage of its size, it actually has a rather average level of immigration.

That's to be expected, by the way, most countries tend to level off the amount of immigration they permit.

So if you want to use naturalization as some sort of "guide" to how much people "love America" then you need to take it as a percentage of total immigrants; and, again, on that figure, America is not particularly impressive.

Hey, look at it this way, both as an absolute figure an as a percentage, Europe has more immigrants and more naturalizations every year than the United States.


I read your report about America losing standing in the opinion of the world. I didn't read the words, "universally loathed". I think that's your view. Think about what you just wrote. If those two words were the case, no one would let us in their countries. Not to do business, not to work, not to visit.

:lol:

Just because people tend to hate Americans doesn't mean they're not willing to take their money. Most Americans aren't particularly found of Arabs these days, but you are still pumping billions into the Saudi Arabian economy.

As you're well aware, in capitalism, the market tends to trump personal feelings.


Don't forget to fly the Stars and Stripes next Tuesday.

Why? What happens Tuseday?

[Abolish Communism]

English people, especially as ex-pats and immagrants are one of the most respected nationalities. If I say "...and Blair's a wanker" that's another free round.

My mistake...In your view of the world, Americas abroad are hated for their imperial swagger, and the English NEVER exploited lands as part of an Empire. Please, pass me some of what you've been smoking!



(A bit off topic there.)

My friend, if you look back at the discussion you will find that YOU, on your own inititative, brought up why you didn't like American beer. As if I care. As if I asked. Your first comment was off topic. My response was on topic to your comment.


LSD:

All of your comments are based only on money. I understand this about commies, but as you can expect by my nickname here, I'm working to insure your revolution stays theoretical, in the dream world where it belongs.

My feelings toward America, and the reason people love this country, have more to do with the freedom of people; something felt in the heart.

I cannot prove this with any study, and more than I can "prove" the existance of beauty, God, or emotion, but it's there just the same.

Tuesday celebrates another time when people broke free from the bonds of those things which hold them. On the same concept: if you believe capitalism keeps you a slave, break free from it and live without money or ownership. You have that power. If you feel you don't have it, reflect on the American Spirit of doing what others say can't be done.

[KC]

My feelings toward America, and the reason people love this country, have more to do with the freedom of people; something felt in the heart.

I cannot prove this with any study, and more than I can "prove" the existance of beauty, God, or emotion, but it's there just the same.

Well, there's a problem with this. You might not be able to prove that people love America for its freedom, but we can prove that freedom is a myth in the United States. Go read the Patriot Act.

[Abolish Communism]

And another one bites the dust. (His first time out, too.)

Well Khayembii Communique, without realizing it, you've provided the exception which proves the rule:


Well, there's a problem with this. You might not be able to prove that people love America for its freedom, but we can prove that freedom is a myth in the United States. Go read the Patriot Act.

Ha! The subtext of what you've just written is that before the Patriot Act was passed, the United States WAS a nation of freedom.

Uh oh! Someone's gonna become a Restricted Member!!!

[red team]

Should a sucessful revolution ever occur, it's most likely you'll be dancing the "electrode fandango" when another rival group of communists take over.

The rival group can only take over if they have the largest mass public support, but if they have largest mass public support I would likely be in support of that group anyway. And since most people of the public only consider torture for the worst violators of human rights like child molestors (and child sweatshop advocates) then I am unlikely to be slow roasted over a fire. But most likely these people would simply be publicly tried and executed, so you don't worry about the fun and games.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 30 2006, 04:59 PM

English people, especially as ex-pats and immagrants are one of the most respected nationalities. If I say "...and Blair's a wanker" that's another free round.

My mistake...In your view of the world, Americas abroad are hated for their imperial swagger, and the English NEVER exploited lands as part of an Empire. Please, pass me some of what you've been smoking!



(A bit off topic there.)
Yes we *DID* exploit people as part of an empire. This doesn't stop british travelleres and mmagrants being very well accepted all over (seriously cultivate an English accent and go travelling, its fabulous.)

I didn't say it was you who went off topic did I, smartarse? I was pointing out that I had gone off topic talking about beer, whiskey and whisky.

[Abolish Communism]

Yes we *DID* exploit people as part of an empire. This doesn't stop british travelleres and mmagrants being very well accepted all over

So tell me where in the world "I" with my American accent and American conduct would not be accepted, while you, w/ your English accent and conduct, seated next to me, would be "accepted". (Don't include the USA or UK).




I didn't say it was you who went off topic did I, smartarse? I was pointing out that I had gone off topic talking about beer, whiskey and whisky.

Sorry, the way you phrased it in your accent threw me off. :)


P.S. I was in Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, and the Lower Countries last summer and had a great time. (Off topic: I think I now have a thing for German guys. :wub: )

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 30 2006, 06:36 PM

Yes we *DID* exploit people as part of an empire. This doesn't stop british travelleres and mmagrants being very well accepted all over

So tell me where in the world "I" with my American accent and American conduct would not be accepted, while you, w/ your English accent and conduct, seated next to me, would be "accepted". (Don't include the USA or UK).
I'll be fair and only include places I've been to, and listended to the locals ***** about Americans:
Thailand
Malaysia
Botswana (To be fair I was born there...)
Brunei (Again, to be fair I lived there)
Dubai
Singapore
Italy
Do you want me to go on? Don't start this kind of argument with people who travel, it's not good for you.


(German boys? Pfeh each to their own.)

[Abolish Communism]

I'll be fair and only include places I've been to, and listended to the locals ***** about Americans:
Thailand
Malaysia
Botswana (To be fair I was born there...)
Brunei (Again, to be fair I lived there)
Dubai
Singapore
Italy



The operative words that we have used in our discussion have been, "would not be accepted". You've changed it this time out to "locals who ***** about".

In America plenty of people ***** about NEARLY everyone. But we still "accept" them. Same it this list of yours. My sister is in Thailand right now and having the hell of a time. Are you saying that as we write this, Italians are throwing Americans out of the hotels and putting them on planes? You've way off, mate. If you stick to the original argument, that I wouldn't be ACCEPTED where you would be, your list goes out the window, which is why you probably changed it to "***** about". Like I care. (Oh, and Italians NEVER ***** about the English! 'Course not!)



Don't start this kind of argument with people who travel, it's not good for you.

Sorry I didn't end up being one of the Americans you've spent your life stereotyping..."Son, get me my 30-Ot-Six...There's one of them thar Brits in the back-y-yard tryin' to take us back fer England...Grab yer bible son, yer almost late fer publik skoowl."

Keep dreaming that we act that way, though. :blush:

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Abolish [email protected] 30 2006, 06:57 PM

I'll be fair and only include places I've been to, and listended to the locals ***** about Americans:
Thailand
Malaysia
Botswana (To be fair I was born there...)
Brunei (Again, to be fair I lived there)
Dubai
Singapore
Italy



The operative words that we have used in our discussion have been, "would not be accepted". You've changed it this time out to "locals who ***** about".

In America plenty of people ***** about NEARLY everyone. But we still "accept" them. Same it this list of yours. My sister is in Thailand right now and having the hell of a time. Are you saying that as we write this, Italians are throwing Americans out of the hotels and putting them on planes? You've way off, mate. If you stick to the original argument, that I wouldn't be ACCEPTED where you would be, your list goes out the window, which is why you probably changed it to "***** about". Like I care. (Oh, and Italians NEVER ***** about the English! 'Course not!)



I never implied you wouldn't be 'accepted' into the country, of course everyone 'accpepts' you, Americans have lots of money and guess what? because everyone believes you're idiots and because you have lots of mney they like nothing better than taking your cash. Of course all tourists are to a degree '*****ed about' it's just English people tend to be more inoffensive about their tourism.As for the Immagration, it takes longer for any true acceptance for Americans (of course I'm just going on personal expierence and word of mouth from people I've lived around).



Don't start this kind of argument with people who travel, it's not good for you.

Sorry I didn't end up being one of the Americans you've spent your life stereotyping..."Son, get me my 30-Ot-Six...There's one of them thar Brits in the back-y-yard tryin' to take us back fer England...Grab yer bible son, yer almost late fer publik skoowl."

Keep dreaming that we act that way, though. :blush:
'Spent my life'? Sorry since when did constructing steryotypes I *KNOW* are ridiculous constitute spending my life. Hell if I could type a 'New Yoik' or toher such accent I'd probably have steryotyped you as that. It's exxagerating something in order to more effectivley take the piss, its not my life's work.

[Abolish Communism]

I never implied you wouldn't be 'accepted' into the country, of course everyone 'accpepts' you, Americans have lots of money and guess what? because everyone believes you're idiots and because you have lots of mney they like nothing better than taking your cash. Of course all tourists are to a degree '*****ed about' it's just English people tend to be more inoffensive about their tourism.As for the Immagration, it takes longer for any true acceptance for Americans (of course I'm just going on personal expierence and word of mouth from people I've lived around).

If you read the back and forth discussion we've had, it would appear to an outside reader that you have softened your original stance.

But I won't quibble. I think we both agree that tourists who act like idiots and flash a lot of cash around become easy marks for those who make their money off of them.

I have had good experience with Germans, here in the states, and in Germany. I suspect there are others like me who have hade good experiences with Americans, and would expect to find it similar otherwise. My parents once went on a cruise (before I was born) and met and enjoyed a couple from South Africa, before they changed their racial policies. They liked them a lot, and had a lot of fun with them during the cruise.Tourism and meeting people from different cultures is a very funny sort of science. You and I might meet and have a great time together, and simply agree about the poor decision the US and UK made in warring in Iraq, the good thing that Saddam is gone from power, and that kids working in sweat shops for 50 cents a day is bad. We might also disagree about sports, (It's possible that you only know about that weird thing you all call "football" over there, and know nothing about REAL football, and the perfection that is Superbowl Sunday.), music, and boxers versus briefs. But none of these things would necessarily make us bad friends for a few days. Who knows. Friendship and exploration are unique concepts, and there are no rules. :)

[LSD]

LSD:

All of your comments are based only on money.

:huh:

um...actually, none of my comments had to do with money. Rather they had to do with objectively disproving your claims regarding the United States.

So again, firstly, rich or poor, there are better places to live than the United States. Denying that is denying reality and, indeed, since you didn't deny or rebut any of the myriad of studies that I linked, I'm going to take it that you've conceded this point

And secondly, your claim that more immigrants become citizens of the United States than other countries is demonstrably false. I'm going to take your failure to engage on this point to be a consesssion as well.

So.... what was your point again? :lol:


My feelings toward America, and the reason people love this country, have more to do with the freedom of people; something felt in the heart.

Except that most people don't "love America".

Again, most of the world hates your country and considers your government to be the biggest threat to world peace. And even in your own country, a lower percentage of immigratns will become citizens than in Canada or Denmark or many other countries.

Again, by your own standard, people "love" Canada more than they do the US.

Not that that's wholly surprising of course considering how deeply fucked up your country is...

[Abolish Communism]

Again, most of the world hates your country and considers your government to be the biggest threat to world peace.

Again: Nothing you write is of any importance. Everyone LOVES America, including yourself obviously, because you are obsessed by us, as you should be. I'm going to take your failure to engage on this point to take it that you've conceded this point. :o

ALL of Canada goes to bed secretly thanking the U.S. for existing, as opposed to having Mexico just south of you, where an invasion would no doubt end Canada's existance in about a day and a half. (A single day if the invaders bring beer.) :P

Finally, what are Canadian troops doing in Afghanistan? :o

Assisting
the biggest threat to world peace :o

You'd think they'd pull out. But I presume most are not like you, and support many American alliances.

Has Canada pulled out of NATO? :lol:

Wait! Canada's part of NATO! :huh:
Canada's in Afghanistan! :huh:
Canada hasn't closed its borders to
the biggest threat to world peace :o :(

[LSD]

Again: Nothing you write is of any importance.

Then what are you doing responding to it?

You chose to join this board, remember? That means that, at some level, you consider what I and all the other members here to be important.

No, it's far more likely that you're still trying to evade the fact that you've been wrong on every single point you've raised. The US is not the best place to live, it does not have the highest rate of naturalization, and it is not universally "loved".

In fact, globally speaking, aside from its massive army and stranglehold on the world economy, there's nothing particularly "special" about the United States. And, again, I am remarkably delighted that I am priveleged enough to have no been born inside that miserable cesspool of a nation.


Everyone LOVES America, including yourself obviously, because you are obsessed by us, as you should be.

:blink:

You do realize that that's an insane statement, right? I mean, the French resistance was pretty "obsessed" with the Nazis, that certainly didn't mean that they in any way "loved" the German state.

Similarly, your President seems pretty obsessed with the Iraqi insurgency. He hardly speaks about anything else these days. Does that mean that he secretly "loves" the "terrorists"? :lol:

The only reason that I talk about the United States is because you are, at present, the single biggest imperialist power in the world. You're kind of "hard to miss", as it were; but I am by no means "obsessed" with your country.

It does appear that I know it better than you however. Certainly this thread seems to indicate that my knowledge of the subject vastly exceeds your own. I know that you're not claiming it anymore, but do remember that when this thread began you were contending that the US has a higher rate of naturalization than any other country. :rolleyes:


Finally, what are Canadian troops doing in Afghanistan?

Supporting the Canadian bourgeoisie's interests in the region.

What, did you think that I was a "patriot"? :lol:

I'm a communist for Christ's sake, I seek to overthrow the present government of Canada and I certainly have no "love" or "loyalty" to it.

[Abolish Communism]

LSD:

I disagree with you on every point, and am not too worried about it because you failed to make any.

I just realized however that I'm arguing with a guy who's political statement is:


Fuck your prick with a rubber dick.

:rolleyes:


OK, so you say you're a revolutionary, and that's your statement. Somehow, I think we "non-revolutionaries" are going to be just fine.

Lincoln :)
Jefferson :D
King :lol:
JFK :wub:


Lenin :o
Mao :angry:
Che :ph34r:

[LSD]

I disagree with you on every point, and am not too worried about it because you failed to make any.

Actually I made several points, albeit most of them were in response to erroneous statements of yours.

Again, though I take your inability to reconstruct those points to be consessions, so I'm really not bothered by your failure to man up and admit that you were wrong.

In any case, I trust it's now been made clear to you that "America" is in no way "unique" and is certainly not specially regarded by those outside of it. And as long as I'm helping to spread knowledge and demolish misconception, I'm doing my job. :)

[Capitalist Lawyer]

I'm happy and somewhat surprised that you see this guy for what he is. The whole ethnic studies movement is ripe with corruption and pseudo intellectualism of the sort he displays. The antidote to the Ward Churchills who infest the academy is more intellectual diversity on campus.

That means more conservatives on the faculty.

[Guerrilla22]

As a former student of Ward Churchill and a proud alum of the University of Colorado, I can say that this whole thing is purely politically moitvated. The reactionaries in the Colorado state government and the new president just want to boot Churchill because of his politics. first it was because he made some comments about 9/11, then it was that he wasn't really a native american, which both came and past with him not being fired and now this.



I'm happy and somewhat surprised that you see this guy for what he is. The whole ethnic studies movement is ripe with corruption and pseudo intellectualism of the sort he displays. The antidote to the Ward Churchills who infest the academy is more intellectual diversity on campus.

That means more conservatives on the faculty.

What a racist thing to say. Because ethnic studies programs teach froma minority point of view and don't teach the free market bullshit spewed by the economics departments, which are so coveted by conservatives, they don't qualify as legitimate programs?

[theraven]

What a racist thing to say. Because ethnic studies programs teach froma minority point of view and don't teach the free market bullshit spewed by the economics departments, which are so coveted by conservatives, they don't qualify as legitimate programs?

no becuse most of what they teach is utter bull crap, and gives the student no useful skills.

[Abolish Communism]

no becuse most of what they teach is utter bull crap, and gives the student no useful skills.

If you want skills, don't go to a university. Skills are associated with job requirements, and if you want to learn a skill, get out of a university and run to a trade school. That's not a put down, just trying to help out.

[red team]

no becuse most of what they teach is utter bull crap, and gives the student no useful skills.

As opposed to economics? How good are contemporary economic fortune tellers? Usually they miss every sign of impending financial meltdowns and only respond after the fact. Which is not surprising since the present economic system is ambiguous, non-deterministic, chaotic and unstable. Not something I would choose to run my car with, but ironically that's what is implemented to run a system that determines how people make a living.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:46 PM


What a racist thing to say. Because ethnic studies programs teach froma minority point of view and don't teach the free market bullshit spewed by the economics departments, which are so coveted by conservatives, they don't qualify as legitimate programs?

no becuse most of what they teach is utter bull crap, and gives the student no useful skills.
have you ever taken an ethnic studies class, how do you that the content is bogus? I've taken ethnic studies classes and found them vey informative. People's ideas of what departments are relevent and what are useless is completely subjective. Like someone else said, economics departments don't offer much besides useless predictions and ideological commentary.

[Abolish Communism]

Now there's a racism without realizing it's racism.

The person who originally wrote that ethnic studies don't include the B.S. of the free market. :rolleyes:

Built into this is the notion that it's "white" to be capitalist, and that if you're ethnic (all people are equally ethnic, so another piece of nonsense) you don't gravitate toward capitalsim. :D

Tell that to the Chinese. :lol:

[theraven]

As opposed to economics? How good are contemporary economic fortune tellers? Usually they miss every sign of impending financial meltdowns and only respond after the fact. Which is not surprising since the present economic system is ambiguous, non-deterministic, chaotic and unstable. Not something I would choose to run my car with, but ironically that's what is implemented to run a system that determines how people make a living.

deride economics all you like, however if you leave college with an economcis degrees theres a hella lot more jobs out there then if your a major in black studies.



have you ever taken an ethnic studies class, how do you that the content is bogus? I've taken ethnic studies classes and found them vey informative. People's ideas of what departments are relevent and what are useless is completely subjective. Like someone else said, economics departments don't offer much besides useless predictions and ideological commentary.



heres a good way to tell if something is useful or not:
find out what kind of jobs companies want "native american studies" majors for

find out what kind f jobs companie want economics majors for.

thats your answer

[red team]

Yes, and there's also a lot more jobs for corporate bean counters (accountants) and professional bullshitters (product marketing) so what's your point?

Besides profit maximization which is what you would most likely be hired for is not hard. Sell at a high price and reduce costs for maximum profit, but don't set a price so high that people avoid buying it (unless you've cornered the market). Oooh very hard. Use a formula that somebody already came up with to find the point on the curve in which this occurs. Again, not very hard, especially when all the formulas are written into a program run by computers.

Now comes the hard part. Where to find a tax shelter expert so you can store your loot safely in an offshore account?

[Invader Zim]

Abolish Communism you've lost. Stop flogging a dead horse. You have been utterly humiliated by LSD.

As you are, a newbie of sorts, and I a relatively long standing member who has seen this kind of thing before, I would advise that you quit while you are ah... not as behind as you will be, should you continue your futile attempts to continue this argument.

[Abolish Communism]

So, I've been utterly humiliated, huh?

I can tell you something more humiliating...being caught at creating your own cheering section. Pretty pathetic.

Here's Monica's comment on another issue:


MonicaTTmed Posted: Jun 19 2006, 11:36 AM


Libertarian Marxist


Group: Commie Club
Posts: 407
Member No.: 15078
Joined: 18-April 06



Okay. Now that this is over and LSD has beaten UmmProfessional down thoroughly, I would like to make a few statements.

1. UmmProfessional - Get a stinking SPELL CHECKER! Illegible posts do NOT increase your credibility with the rest of the world!
2. LSD - Thank you for spending so many hours trying to insert logic into this guy's brain. I don't think I could have lasted that long. Most of us knew you were right--it was just a battle of endurance and will.
3. UmmProfessional - If you are still homophobic after being gutted and gored by reason, prepare to be BANNED.


--------------------

Revolutionary Youth
Free People's Movement

Economic Left/Right: -9.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.10
Redstar2000 Papers
MY BLOG
>>>INFIDELGUY.COM--SUBSCRIBE NOW&#33;<<<


So, Enigma AND MonicaTTmed are both personas of LSD. Big deal.

What you may want to do, however, LSD, is be careful so you don&#39;t embarrass yourself, like you did on the MonicaTTmed Blog. Here are her two back to back posts from her blog:


Oy. I&#39;m Monica. Why are you reading this? Wait, I don&#39;t want to know. Anyway, I&#39;m an 11-y/o girl in the idiotic U&#036;A. This computer is my refuge and my way of connecting with other people. I gravitate toward message boards, such as these:http://infidelguy.com/http://planetthinktanks.com/http://asexuality.org/discussion/etc, etc.I&#39;m stuck in a dysfunctional family. But that shouldn&#39;t matter on the computer, should it? No. I like to listen to leftist and revolutionary music, especially songs with a very strong beat. Okay, now why am I doing this blog when I have more important stuff to do? Brain, stop thinking of things to type. Fingers, stop typing. Okay. Click that "Submit" button over there and don&#39;t waste TIME&#33;
Posted: Monday December 05th, 2005 09:01 PM | Permalink

OK, "She&#39;s" 11.


Right now I&#39;m in the middle of a furious debate about pure communism vs pure capitalism on the planetthinktanks.com forums. You can see it here (2nd page): http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.as...2&page=2I&#39;m (http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.as...ad=13492&page=2I&#39;m) currently dealing with this bullshit spewer "Ti the Boss". He knows absolutely nothing. However, I will probably need help with the rest of this debate with older, wiser cappies because I&#39;m only 12 (haven&#39;t read Marx&#39;s Das Kapital, can&#39;t choose my own classes in school yet so haven&#39;t taken economics or sociology, etc).Thanks for any advice/help/facts.
Posted: Tuesday December 06th, 2005 04:02 AM | Permalink

Hey, "she&#39;s 12&#33;" And just a few hours later&#33; Amazing. And on a previous 2006 post she told us she had a birthday.

Utterly humiliated, huh. Well, I&#39;m not creating persona after persona writing, "Way to go, Abolish Communism, you really did a great job there&#33;"

Pathetic.

Last time I showed up LSD I got a warning point, AND NO EXPLAINATION.

[Guerrilla22]

Now there&#39;s a racism without realizing it&#39;s racism.

The person who originally wrote that ethnic studies don&#39;t include the B.S. of the free market.

Built into this is the notion that it&#39;s "white" to be capitalist, and that if you&#39;re ethnic (all people are equally ethnic, so another piece of nonsense) you don&#39;t gravitate toward capitalsim.

Ok, that makes no sense what so ever, any other great arguments?


heres a good way to tell if something is useful or not:
find out what kind of jobs companies want "native american studies" majors for

find out what kind f jobs companie want economics majors for.

thats your answer

What if you just want to take an ethnic studies class to learn something about a different culture? If someone wants to major in ethnic studies, who cares, its their money, believe it or not some people go to college to become more enlightened as individuals, not just so they can make money after they get their degree.

[General Patton]

Good&#33; It&#39;s about time&#33; Of course, the coward is going to bog the school and the taxpayers of Colorado down with a lawsuit. I think her should have to repay Colorado for past salaries, and be forced to pay legal fees when he loses his case.

[Guerrilla22]

:rolleyes: Yeah, the taxpayers of Colorado can kiss my ass, they only contribute 7% of the school&#39;s annual budget, the students basically support the school through tution. If they do fire him, he will easily win a lawsuit, thus the only people getting hurt here are the students who will lose a great proffesor and have their tution go up as a result of this nonsense.

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

OK, "She&#39;s" 11.


QUOTE
Right now I&#39;m in the middle of a furious debate about pure communism vs pure capitalism on the planetthinktanks.com forums. You can see it here (2nd page): http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.as...2&page=2I&#39;m currently dealing with this bullshit spewer "Ti the Boss". He knows absolutely nothing. However, I will probably need help with the rest of this debate with older, wiser cappies because I&#39;m only 12 (haven&#39;t read Marx&#39;s Das Kapital, can&#39;t choose my own classes in school yet so haven&#39;t taken economics or sociology, etc).Thanks for any advice/help/facts.
Posted: Tuesday December 06th, 2005 04:02 AM | Permalink



Hey, "she&#39;s 12&#33;" And just a few hours later&#33; Amazing. And on a previous 2006 post she told us she had a birthday.

Utterly humiliated, huh. Well, I&#39;m not creating persona after persona writing, "Way to go, Abolish Communism, you really did a great job there&#33;"

I smell intrigue too.


Yeah, the taxpayers of Colorado can kiss my ass, they only contribute 7% of the school&#39;s annual budget, the students basically support the school through tution. If they do fire him, he will easily win a lawsuit, thus the only people getting hurt here are the students who will lose a great proffesor and have their tution go up as a result of this nonsense.
W C should be fired.

[General Patton]

lose a great proffesor


Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33;

Is that the same great professor who taught you how to spell "proffesor" and "tution"?

Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33;

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

Originally posted by General [email protected] 3 2006, 08:13 AM

lose a great proffesor


Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33;

Is that the same great professor that taught you how to spell "proffesor" and "tution"?

Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33;
You know it was. Some People on this forum can&#39;t spell to save their life.

[Invader Zim]

So, Enigma AND MonicaTTmed are both personas of LSD. Big deal.

LOL, sorry AC, but you have missed the green and are well into the rough with that one.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 02:27 PM



So, Enigma AND MonicaTTmed are both personas of LSD. Big deal.

LOL, sorry sunshine, but you have missed the green and are well into the rough with that one.
LOL, they don&#39;t even live in the same countries :lol:

He gave you good advice to quit from digging your hole and then you pulled out that one...

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by General [email protected] 3 2006, 08:13 AM

lose a great proffesor


Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33;

Is that the same great professor who taught you how to spell "proffesor" and "tution"?

Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33; Hah&#33;
ha ha, where did you go to school? I gaurantee you didn&#39;t go to a university as good a s CU. I may mispell words at 3 in the morning, but as far as intelligence goes, I make you look like a toddler.

[JimmyC]

LSD wrote:


Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world? I mean "loyalty oaths" to teach at a school? WTF???

LSD lives in Canada.

LSD, here is the current Candaian loyalty oath to become a Canadian Citizen:

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.

:o

Swear an oath to a woman 3000 miles away from your country?&#33;?

:lol:

Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world? I mean "loyalty oaths" to a monarch? WTF???

:rolleyes:


Incidentally, here&#39;s the proposed text to the Canadian loyalty oath:

From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country&#39;s rights and freedoms, to defend our democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfill my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen.

:huh:


ditto previous comment.

Man, LSD, are you ever dumb&#33; May want to look in your own back yard before embarrassing yourself like that again. :P

[Guerrilla22]

CU professor Ward Churchill&#39;s statement
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June 27, 2006
It was quite predictable that Interim Chancellor Phil DiStefano would recommend that I be fired from my tenured professorship at the University of Colorado/Boulder. After all, he was effectively ordered to find some "legally defensible" basis for doing so by Colorado Governor Bill Owens.
In pursuit of this purely political objective, the interim chancellor has at this point expended more than a year and upwards of &#036;250,000 in taxpayer monies.

For all that, he has failed.

Certain facts about my case simply cannot be denied:

1. Interim Chancellor DiStefano joined Governor Owens and several Colorado legislators in publicly and repeatedly denouncing me on explicitly ideological grounds, thereby making his personal biases abundantly clear.

2. In direct violation of the Laws of the Regents of the University of Colorado concerning Academic Freedom, the interim chancellor took the unprecedented step of creating and chairing a special committee devoted to investigating the political content of my scholarship.

3. He and/or his surrogates on this special committee actively solicited allegations of "research misconduct" against me, contriving to cast the impression through the media that these allegations were independently and voluntarily submitted by the scholars involved.

4. Since this produced a "shot-gun load" of allegations but no actual complainants, Interim Chancellor DiStefano named himself complainant without, by his own admission, even bothering to read much of what he was supposedly alleging.

5. Throughout this process the interim chancellor routinely violated the confidentiality rules concerning personnel matters in the CU system, issuing numerous press releases designed to sustain the media "feeding frenzy," subjecting me to "trial by news media," and denying my rights to privacy and due process.

6. Having thus virtually guaranteed that faculty members at the University of Colorado could not be neutral, the interim chancellor/complainant then used his administrative influence to ensure that my request for an investigative panel composed exclusively of persons external to CU was denied. Consequently 3 of 5 panel members, including its chair, were drawn from the Boulder faculty. As predicted, serious questions concerning the impartiality of 2 of these internal panelists have come to light, and more can be expected.

7. Similarly, my repeated requests that the investigative panel include acknowledged experts in the relevant subject areas were ignored. Ultimately, 4 of the 5 panelists professed no specific knowledge whatsoever concerning either the procedures employed within my discipline or the topics under discussion. So much for the pretense that the merits of my work have been assessed by my peers.

The investigative report produced by the panel, while voluminous, misses the mark entirely.

The panelists were required by the rules to restrict their inquiry to whether I actually committed fraud and plagiarism.

Instead, they indulged in a repetition of the "Scopes Monkey Trial," presuming to assert the "truth" of the various historical and legal questions involved, in a manner comfortable to themselves and to those they seemingly perceive as comprising the "American mainstream." Such enforcement of orthodoxy was plainly not within the panels legitimate mandate.

Indeed, as regards the allegations of fraud raised by Interim Chancellor DiStefano, whether what I wrote is true or false is irrelevant. The ONLY relevant consideration is whether I had reason to believe it was true.

On this score, I did, and still do, and the panel proved nothing to the contrary. This is amply reflected in the evidence the panel left largely unaddressed in its report. Much the same pertains to my having supposedly "invented" historical incidents, and the alleged implications of my ghostwriting.

As to the panels findings that by a "preponderance of the evidence" I twice engaged in plagiarism, a simple question presents itself: What, exactly, is a "preponderance" of no evidence at all? Of course, the report produced by the investigative panel is designed to make the opposite of all this seem true. In fact, it seems reasonable to suggest that the very length of the document was meant to obscure its lack of substance.

Two observations support this conclusion:

1. In order to conclude that I engaged in research misconduct, the panelists, collectively, severely distort certain of their sources, omit mention of material inconvenient to their conclusions, cite themselves as the sole authority confirming many of their points, and occasionally engage in outright fabrication.

In fact, each kind of academic misconduct the interim chancellors carefully-selected panel claims I committed is engaged in by the panel itself in the writing of its report. (One of the panelists even takes credit for authoring a work unquestionably written by another scholar.) In the face of all this, it becomes apparent that the panelists arrived at their conclusions before the fact, the orchestrated their data accordingly. In other words, to borrow the panels own term, their report was clearly "thesis-driven." Paraphrasing them again, it means they "dont understand the difference between scholarship and polemic," and have produced a report consisting of "propaganda rather than scholarship."

2. Even if the allegations at issue were true and they certainly are not they do not constitute offenses for which faculty members can, under any ordinary circumstances, be terminated. The panel, the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct (SCRM) which endorsed its report, and the interim chancellor all thus resorted to the argument that I could/should be fired, not for what I did, but because I have refused to recant. In other words, it is my "attitude" which justifies the severity of the recommended sanctions.

This, then, is the backdrop against which Interim Chancellor DiStefanos "news flash" that I should be fired must be understood.

From start to finish, the interim chancellors blatant conflicts of interest not to mention the political nature of his biases have been obvious to anyone who cared to view the matter honestly. So, too, the ways in which he has manipulated the process at every step in order to guarantee the outcome he announced on Monday.

The interim vice chancellors strikingly duplicitous comportment over the past 16 months will not go unchallenged. I will file an appeal of the whole charade with the Faculty Senates Committee on Privilege and Tenure (P&T) within the next 10 days.

Far from putting the "final touches to the Churchill story," as fantasized on Denver editorial pages, the interim chancellors elaborate subterfuge has merely set the stage for the taxpayers to waste another quarter-million dollars while I go through the P&T process.

Hopefully, the members of P&T who review my case will display the sort of integrity conspicuously lacking in their predecessors on the investigative panel and the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct.

That would do much to constrain the magnitude of damage sustained by the University — and consequently the taxpayers — when my case goes to court, as it ultimately will.

Ward Churchill Boulder, Colorado June 27, 2006

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 03:24 AM
LSD wrote:


Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world? I mean "loyalty oaths" to teach at a school? WTF???

LSD lives in Canada.

LSD, here is the current Candaian loyalty oath to become a Canadian Citizen:

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.

:o

Swear an oath to a woman 3000 miles away from your country?&#33;?

:lol:

Honestly, do you guys just not realize how bizarre you look to the rest of the world? I mean "loyalty oaths" to a monarch? WTF???

:rolleyes:


Incidentally, here&#39;s the proposed text to the Canadian loyalty oath:

From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country&#39;s rights and freedoms, to defend our democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfill my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen.

:huh:


ditto previous comment.

Man, LSD, are you ever dumb&#33; May want to look in your own back yard before embarrassing yourself like that again. :P
Although I&#39;m not speaking for LSD here, I noticed that he said he was not a Canadian patriot and wasn&#39;t mocking the USA itself so much as those it act as if it&#39;s god&#39;s gift to humanity.

[JimmyC]

Although I&#39;m not speaking for LSD here

In fact......You Are&#33; :lol: