Silenceing The 'believers'

[*[email protected]*]

Come the time the Revolution happens,
should we allow the people (considering that they dont support the Capatalists) who believe in

god, gods, supernatural beliefs or devine, holy afterlifes

to continue their faith and remain neutral in the crossfire or should we round them all up with the raciests, sexiets and homophobes, shoot them, burn their churchs, mosques and other temples and ban anyone from speaking publicly about religous figures, beliefs, and events?





:redstar:

[theraven]

no because
1) you'd be killing A LOT of poeple

2) its possibel that some of them might be on your side...

of course i must add that the chance of your revoltion happing any time soon is next to nil, so :-p

[Ander]

Originally posted by *[email protected]*@Jun 27 2006, 05:24 PM
Come the time the Revolution happens,
should we allow the people (considering that they dont support the Capatalists) who believe in

god, gods, supernatural beliefs or devine, holy afterlifes

to continue their faith and remain neutral in the crossfire or should we round them all up with the raciests, sexiets and homophobes, shoot them, burn their churchs, mosques and other temples and ban anyone from speaking publicly about religous figures, beliefs, and events?





:redstar:
No, because we're not repressive Stalinist pieces of shit.

At least I'm not.

[Jazzratt]

Hear hear Jello.

[The Bitter Hippy]

i think this guy is a little confused as to the mechanics of revolution... To try to remove bigotry through killing is (although perhaps understandable) doomed to failure. Bigotry will be eradicated by the removal of the capitalist causes of bigotry. Religion will fade into insignificance with time and it will be irrelevant to the revolution. repression will not be an option, as there will be no state (eventually) to do the repressing. If the proletariat wants religion, religion it shall have.

[Guest1]

No. Teach militant materialism in schools and a very detailed history of religion, that's all.

[RaiseYourVoice]

agreed, atm are like 80% of the world population religious in some way. we cant just kill them. (oups that sounds like if it were 3% i wanted to. no i dont.)

religion, as long as the church does not become a force against communism, is nothing interfering with us too much. we have more serious problems than religion, and many commies, progressives or those who call themselves that are religious themselves

[Delta]

Killing people because of their beliefs, especially if it simply requires them going and praying to a magic fairy at night in their bedroom, is not something I'd want in my community.

The comradeship and solidarity that will be crucial in order for the revolution to take place will probably fill some of the emotional and social voids that some people use religion to fill. However, the crazy fundy wackos? Well, I think it's likely that most of them will go down with the capitalists anyway.

[theraven]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 28 2006, 03:29 AM
No. Teach militant materialism in schools and a very detailed history of religion, that's all.
teach it where? what if religous communties don't decide to teach it? who will make people?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

It is insane to suggest murdering based on belief. Apologies to the creator of the thread, but this really isn't worth debating. What would that be but the Holocaust, many many times worse? Pure incomprehension over here. :blink:

-Alex

[Fidel Follower]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 05:20 PM
It is insane to suggest murdering based on belief.
What about Fascist?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Fascists too. It is their opinion, which they are entitled to. Unless of course you have good reasons to murder them, i'm all ears and open minded. :o

-Alex

[Raj Radical]

Just say no to purging.


I know a few religious communists, , and many religious non-communist friends.

One of the most brilliant activists ive ever met is a chiristian.

Even though marxism/stalinism is inherently anti-religion, socialism/collectivism isent nessecarily.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 01:10 PM
teach it where? what if religous communties don't decide to teach it? who will make people?
A democratically planned, and rationally planned economy that does not waste resources on god-sucking.

Wanna do that, do it on your own, teach bible-study from your basement. There may be no persecution, but there will be no social opportunities for it either.

[Fidel Follower]

WTF kill all the Fascists too, before they get the chance, if not they will start a revolution themselves! :ph34r:

[BurnTheOliveTree]

As far as I know, out and out fascists are in the minority. In any case, under communist rule, fascists would be exposed as nutters. No need for genocide, if you can call it that. I think you can.

-Alex

[jasmine]

Believe it or not but it is quite normal for people to wonder about what happens after death. They should not be shot for doing so. Nobody knows what happens when we die. Atheism is as much a belief as Christianity. Maybe we should shoot the atheists too (or perhaps just the particularly bigoted atheists). Please allow me to be the one who decides who should live and who should be despatched to investigate the afterlife.

[Delta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 07:53 PM
Atheism is as much a belief as Christianity
Yes, except for the fact that christianity flies in the face of logic, history, and common sense.

I guess you could argue that the belief that I'm sitting at my computer right now and the belief that magical unicorns are going to come to my house tonight to cook me a steak and rub my back are both beliefs, and thus deserve equal respect. But I'd prefer to give preference to beliefs that make sense.

[Avtomatov]

All schools should be secular IMO.

[jasmine]

Of course my beliefs make pefect sense to me and your beliefs make perfect sense to you. Marx believed in the socialist revolution. It hasn't happened and doesn't look like happening soon. Many right-wingers conclude that marxism is a type of religion. Lenin was worshipped. His body was embalmed. We live on a giant rock that is hurtling around an unstable fireball at unimaginable speeds. At least have the imagination to admit that all may not be as it seems. And maybe admit to the conditional (ie uncertain) nature of your belief in the future. And allow others to believe what they wish without the threat of oppression or ridicule. It's called socialism.

[Delta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 08:49 PM
Of course my beliefs make pefect sense to me and your beliefs make perfect sense to you. Marx believed in the socialist revolution. It hasn't happened and doesn't look like happening soon. Many right-wingers conclude that marxism is a type of religion. Lenin was worshipped. His body was embalmed. We live on a giant rock that is hurtling around an unstable fireball at unimaginable speeds. At least have the imagination to admit that all may not be as it seems. And maybe admit to the conditional (ie uncertain) nature of your belief in the future. And allow others to believe what they wish without the threat of oppression or ridicule. It's called socialism.
I certainly believe that people should be able to believe whatever they want without fear of violence. But not without fear of ridicule. When people go around believing ridiculous, contradictory beliefs, then it deserves to be ridiculed, especially when those beliefs affect that person's actions which then affect all of us.

Christian beliefs do not make sense to anyone. They are inherently contradictory, and the idea of the Christian god is a logical impossibility. Someone would have to accept that contradictory statements can both be true to believe in Christianity, but it's absurd to think that anyone actually thinks like this for the bulk of their daily lives. They would be a complete wreck. So as I said above, christian beliefs do not make sense to anyone, it's just that some don't try to make sense out of them. This is why you hear "you just have to have faith" all the time in religious discussions but you don't hear it in other scenarios.

[Janus]

That sort of repression is unnecessary and dangerous.

I think that in a post-revolutionary society, the people who will still worship some deity will be very few in number and the study of religion will probably be limited to some sort of hobby.

A new communist society will be built on progress and has not room for background and reactionary beliefs.

[jasmine]

Firstly, education should be free of dogmatism - aetheist dogmatism or any other. Secondly, Christian beliefs make a lot of sense to a lot of people (I am not Christian). Nobody knows what will happen after death or after the socialist revolution (if there is one). The idea that religion will disappear is pure speculation, it is either an unquestioning acceptance of what Marx said, the unchallenged assumption of your peer group or the expression of an emotional need. When you state your certainties without evidence (or the slightest doubt) you do not seem to realize just how much you have in common with the scientologists or jehovahs witnesses.

[Ol' Dirty]

If you're a socialist and a religionist, my hand goes out to you. By all mewans, join. Get up, stand up, whoever you may be, y'know?

[Delta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 10:19 AM
Nobody knows what will happen after death or after the socialist revolution (if there is one)
Bad analogy. After a social revolution we may not know exactly what's going to happen, but we do know that it will involve people, materials, and other things that we know exist today. However, with afterlife belief you are talking about something (a soul) existing which we have no evidence for which to believe it exists. In fact, there are many good arguments against souls existing.


When you state your certainties without evidence (or the slightest doubt) you do not seem to realize just how much you have in common with the scientologists or jehovahs witnesses

I live without any sense of practical doubt about unicorns living in my closet, and I do the same for god. Show me evidence for either and I'll reconsider, but until then.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 07:40 PM
As far as I know, out and out fascists are in the minority. In any case, under communist rule, fascists would be exposed as nutters. No need for genocide, if you can call it that. I think you can.

No. Fascists need to be combated, they will always actively seek out violence and spread their hate in any way possible. The must confronted and obliterated, I don't care if its their opinion or not. If you honestly think fascism is just some small nutjob ideology that is really not worth talking about then you clearly have never been involved in real life politics. It's is dangerous and credible.

[The Sloth]

are you out of your fucking mind?

so, you want my old and ignorant grandmother, who happens to be a senseless christian, rounded up and shot because she just happens to have a stupid faith, a stupid system of mythologies?

you worry too much, it seems, about the stupid shit that goes on in people's heads.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 06:19 PM
Firstly, education should be free of dogmatism - aetheist dogmatism or any other. Secondly, Christian beliefs make a lot of sense to a lot of people (I am not Christian). Nobody knows what will happen after death or after the socialist revolution (if there is one). The idea that religion will disappear is pure speculation, it is either an unquestioning acceptance of what Marx said, the unchallenged assumption of your peer group or the expression of an emotional need. When you state your certainties without evidence (or the slightest doubt) you do not seem to realize just how much you have in common with the scientologists or jehovahs witnesses.

Nobody knows what will happen after death...

all the more reason why explanations of "what will happen after death" are rather senseless.


The idea that religion will disappear is pure speculation...

it certainly is, but it's speculation with a lot of good evidence.

religion is, for example, most dominant is socio-economically backwards countries.. which is why, say, europe is mostly secular, and india is not.

of course, there are some rare exceptions.. america, for one.

but, as a general rule, religion sort of fizzles out, not only through modernization, but also through people's constant attacks on it.

i would never have become an atheist if no one gave me reasons to question christianity.. same thing goes for many of my friends.

criticism is very useful, and very practical.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Additives - Fascism is not a big problem, come on. Like I said, there are other options like deportation, re-education, imprisonment, anything but genocide based on opinion. Honestly I have gone my whole life without meeting more than a handful of sincere, out and out fascists. Most are just ignorant and swayed by peer pressure, IMO.

We can't ignore human rights, lest we turn out to be wrong. You can't rule out the possibility, communism hasn't ever been truly put into practice. We can only theorise.

-Alex

[Zingu]

Well, come the revolution, I don't think that many will have much faith in religion by then, I mean come on, religion is a reactionary value, it needs to be discredited in people's minds before they can ever become a class conscience proletariat.

But, I do think that organized church must be dealt with force.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:18 PM
But, I do think that organized church must be dealt with force.
that, yes. the church as an institution.