Why?

[Vendetta]

Why does every political argument I have about communism/anarchism/leftism in general with conservatives usually end up with them saying "human greed will destroy everything!"

I hate that so much. Sorry if this feels like a rant, but it's an honest question. I just don't understand the stupidity of some people.

[which doctor]

Because they don't have anything better to refute communism with!

They have ran out of excuses on why communism can't work so they just pull out the ol' human nature argument.

Too bad human greed is not human nature as they like to think it is.

[EusebioScrib]

Do you hate it because you don't know how to refute it? I know that feeling if you do. I used to get stuck so much. You should check out this thread which will be easy to destroy such arguements:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49904

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 07:39 PM
Do you hate it because you don't know how to refute it? I know that feeling if you do. I used to get stuck so much. You should check out this thread which will be easy to destroy such arguements:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49904
That is also why, but thanks for the link.

[Ali.Cat]

I get "can you really be that naiive?" when I talk about it with some people... but in the back of my mind all I can think is, "can you?" Every time it comes up in discussion I get the same silly examples of "communism" thrown in my face - ie. "look what happened in Russia?!"

I don't tell people communism is "the way to go!" or anything like that, because I really don't know if it is... but it just seems so ignorant for the people I talk about it with to immediately look down on it when they clearly haven't ever thought about it, or taken the time to learn about it.


Do you hate it because you don't know how to refute it? I know that feeling if you do. I used to get stuck so much. You should check out this thread which will be easy to destroy such arguements:


definately

[Messiah]

I'm having the same exact argument for the umpteenth time on another forum currently. And if I can say so myself I'm tea bagging them as we speak.


QUOTE
Greed is good. Greed encourages people to work to their maximum potential; it brings about the finest human accomplishments. Greed brings potential and competition creating the basis of a strong economy and society.


So, to you then the guys at Enron were American heros? Leaving thousands without their life savings because they wanted another couple of million? These men were heros? Hitler was a hero too, by your rationale, because he just wanted a bit more land for him and those like him, right? Robbers too. People who rob old women, who stab you for 5 bucks on your way home at night? All heros, right?

There is nothing wrong with ambition. Greed however is a different matter. There's a reason why even the Christians and theists all over called it a "sin". And I say this as an atheist.

QUOTE
People look negatively on greed, but without greed there is no desire, no point, to working to the best of your ability. Communism does not promote this desire to go the extra mile; instead it appeases the working class. Communism doesn't encourage growth and it doesn't bring the true potential of a society to being. In theory, the idea of eliminating the "exploiting" and "exploited" classes sounds good, but it does too much damage to productivity. Without the potential to capitalize on your work, what's the point of even trying?


Oh, on the contrary. Communism always promotes the extra mile. In fact, I take the Oscar Wilde approach that he argued in his essay "man's Soul Under Socialism". Communism is the ultimate individualist approach to organization. And I mean real "communism". Not the state capitalism of the USSR, we're talking about the theoritcs here anyway.

It is the most individualist form of organization because it says that people should work for no other reason than to make life as comfortable as possible and as good as possible for themselves. And what is more comfortable -- you getting paid 8.50 an hour for your work in the factory, and being intimidated by the bosses? Or you and your coworkers all having equal say in the running of said factory? Will you be more happy with having to wonder if, God forbid, you broke a leg or an arm or got cancer, how you would pay for the treatments? Or would you be happier knowing that you'll always have free coverage?

The capitalists always make a big show about how they are about individualism, but really, let's cut the crap. Do you feel like a real big individual when the boss comes around and says, Jim, you're fired and you have to go and tell the wife and kids you got canned because some poor sap working under the table is willing to work for three dollars less on the hour than you? Or do you feel more secured in your individuality when you get an equal chance and equal say in running the course of your world, where the only limit to how far you can go is how rationale your argument for your point is?

I love debating "libertarians" (that's our word by the way, that should tell you something about communism and anarchism that the hallmark term of capitalist thought was invented by their polar opposities) because theoretical libertarianism is so easily shown to be nothing but a farce. It's the law of the jungle, and nothing more. But if you want to work in a sweat shop and think this is the greatest potential man has, suite yourself.

QUOTE
From Pharohs to emperors to kings to presidents, all relevent societies have a hierarchy. You point to very brief time in spain in some in-vain effort to "refute" thousands of years of human history.


Fantastic point! Because it demonstrates exactly how far we have come. Because for every totalitarian despot, there has always beena group of people that have said "this isn't right!" and look how far we have come! From pharos, to representative democracy. You don't seriously buy into that BS about the fall of the Soviet Union being "the end of history" do you? I'd like to give you a bit more credit than that.

Consider that the Communist Manifesto was written in 1848. In less than a 100 years serious attempts at the ideal communist world were made. And there were some horrific failures, and complete bastardizations. And then there was some crucial victories. Labor unions, workers rights, democratic socialism, the development of the welfare state, etc etc. Organized revoltuionary leftism broke so many barriers in a 100 years, barriers that took big capital thousands of years to set up.

Now, ask yourself, regardless of how tiny a minority we may seem, in your heart of hearts...do you really think we're done yet? You haven't seen anything yet, brothers and sisters.

[red&white]

O YEAH ! I THINK THE LINK IS SUFFICIENT TO CRUSH THE COMPLEX.

[An archist]

Originally posted by Carolina [email protected] 27 2006, 03:21 PM
Why does every political argument I have about communism/anarchism/leftism in general with conservatives usually end up with them saying "human greed will destroy everything!"

I hate that so much. Sorry if this feels like a rant, but it's an honest question. I just don't understand the stupidity of some people.
hehe, the human greed thing.
"If humans are really greedy by nature, wouldn't it be better if no-one was in a position where he/she could take advantage, such as being a boss, or a president?"