A Message From The Mujahideen

[Forward Union]

I found this, it should be quite clear what this video is about. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions.

A message from the Mujahideen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZO_glyWmyg&search=Mujahideen)

[Marx_was_right!]

I not een going to watch it. Do not put their propaganda here or you support. You hate American I know.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 27 2006, 07:37 AM
I found this, it should be quite clear what this video is about. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions.

A message from the Mujahideen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZO_glyWmyg&search=Mujahideen)
Wow. If not for the Islamic part I would have supported it fully. Amazing video.

[theraven]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+Jun 27 2006, 02:14 PM--> (MonicaTTmed @ Jun 27 2006, 02:14 PM)
Additives [email protected] 27 2006, 07:37 AM
I found this, it should be quite clear what this video is about. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions.

A message from the Mujahideen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZO_glyWmyg&search=Mujahideen)
Wow. If not for the Islamic part I would have supported it fully. Amazing video. [/b]
very sad for your monnie

[bcbm]

The video is from the Islamic Jihad Army. Here's a transcript:


People of the world! These words come to you from those who up to the day of the invasion were struggling to survive under the sanctions imposed by the criminal regimes of the U.S. and Britain.

We are simple people who chose principles over fear.

We have suffered crimes and sanctions, which we consider the true weapons of mass destruction.

Years and years of agony and despair, while the condemned UN traded with our oil revenues in the name of world stability and peace.

Over two million innocents died waiting for a light at the end of a tunnel that only ended with the occupation of our country and the theft of our resources.

After the crimes of the administrations of the U.S and Britain in Iraq , we have chosen our future. The future of every resistance struggle ever in the history of man.

It is our duty, as well as our right, to fight back the occupying forces, which their nations will be held morally and economically responsible; for what their elected governments have destroyed and stolen from our land.

We have not crossed the oceans and seas to occupy Britain or the U.S. nor are we responsible for 9/11. These are only a few of the lies that these criminals present to cover their true plans for the control of the energy resources of the world, in face of a growing China and a strong unified Europe. It is Ironic that the Iraqi’s are to bear the full face of this large and growing conflict on behalf of the rest of this sleeping world.

We thank all those, including those of Britain and the U.S. , who took to the streets in protest against this war and against Globalism. We also thank France , Germany and other states for their position, which least to say are considered wise and balanced, til now.

Today, we call on you again.

We do not require arms or fighters, for we have plenty.

We ask you to form a world wide front against war and sanctions. A front that is governed by the wise and knowing. A front that will bring reform and order. New institutions that would replace the now corrupt.

Stop using the U.S. dollar, use the Euro or a basket of currencies. Reduce or halt your consumption of British and U.S. products. Put an end to Zionism before it ends the world. Educate those in doubt of the true nature of this conflict and do not believe their media for their casualties are far higher than they admit.

We only wish we had more cameras to show the world their true defeat.

The enemy is on the run. They are in fear of a resistance movement they can not see nor predict.

We, now choose when, where, and how to strike. And as our ancestors drew the first sparks of civilization, we will redefine the word “conquest.”

Today we write a new chapter in the arts of urban warfare.

Know that by helping the Iraqi people you are helping yourselves, for tomorrow may bring the same destruction to you.

In helping the Iraqi people does not mean dealing for the Americans for a few contracts here and there. You must continue to isolate their strategy.

This conflict is no longer considered a localized war. Nor can the world remain hostage to the never-ending and regenerated fear that the American people suffer from in general.

We will pin them here in Iraq to drain their resources, manpower, and their will to fight. We will make them spend as much as they steal, if not more.

We will disrupt, then halt the flow of our stolen oil, thus, rendering their plans useless.

And the earlier a movement is born, the earlier their fall will be.

And to the American soldiers we say, you can also choose to fight tyranny with us. Lay down your weapons, and seek refuge in our mosques, churches and homes. We will protect you. And we will get you out of Iraq , as we have done with a few others before you.

Go back to your homes, families, and loved ones. This is not your war. Nor are you fighting for a true cause in Iraq.

And to George W. Bush, we say, “You have asked us to ‘Bring it on’, and so have we. Like never expected. Have you another challenge?”

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jun 27 2006, 12:41 PM
I not een going to watch it. Do not put their propaganda here or you support.
Im somewhat confused, why shouldn't I put their propaganda up here? Im not espousing it, simply posting it up for freethinking individuals (who I assume wont be particularly taken-in by this) to criticise and comment. I mean if this video is enough to sway fairly confident capitalists/communists then they probably have bipolar disorder or something.

I do not support them atall, even if they weren't Islamic.


You hate American I know.

I hate capitalism, and capitalist states, including the American state. Not the people or the land or anything.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Additives Free+Jun 27 2006, 10:09 AM--> (Additives Free @ Jun 27 2006, 10:09 AM)
Marx_was_right!@Jun 27 2006, 12:41 PM
I not een going to watch it. Do not put their propaganda here or you support.
Im somewhat confused, why shouldn't I put their propaganda up here? Im not espousing it, simply posting it up for freethinking individuals (who I assume wont be particularly taken-in by this) to criticise and comment. I mean if this video is enough to sway fairly confident capitalists/communists then they probably have bipolar disorder or something.

I do not support them atall, even if they weren't Islamic.


You hate American I know.

I hate capitalism, and capitalist states, including the American state. Not the people or the land or anything. [/b]
I support their trying to get rid of the occupation. Not the cappie ideals or the Islam. Although the Islam part is about half of the movie...

[ummProfessional]

yes you support anyone who is against AMERICA, not capitalism, you think these people hate BUSH and Capitalism only? they are fucking bigots fueled by Islamic fundamentalism, these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic, is that why 4 Russians were murdered the other day!? is that why South Korean as well as Japanese civilians in Iraq trying to build infrastructure were beheaded, as well as American contractors...ohh yes they are "fighting" the infidels by beheading innocent civilian contractors trying to make a damn living by building infrastructure in your crap hole you call a country....you guys sicken me, i take it if i start killing babies for the sake of rebelling against America you idiots will support me too right? fucking nutjobs! "AND STOP ZIONISM" hahahah yes more anti-Semitism, you all support that as well huh these idiots are merely nationalist fascists, i didn't see South Korea complain about "infidels" in the 1950's, and look at them now, ohh yes how badly we raped them and battered their homeland, same can be said about Japan...if the freaking Iraqis had damn culture and weren't so damn radical with their freaking Islamic fundamentalism which fuels their hideous fascists nationalism then maybe progress could be fucking made in their crap hole and maybe we would be outta there when infrastructure was built....but ohh yes they choose the LA RESISTANCE! and they are paying for it...

[Zero]

Originally posted by "ummProfessional"+--> ("ummProfessional")yes you support anyone who is against AMERICA, not capitalism,[/b]
I'm sure she loves people putting words in her mouth.


Originally posted by "ummProfessional"+--> ("ummProfessional")you think these people hate BUSH and Capitalism only? they are fucking bigots fueled by Islamic fundamentalism,[/b]
As opposed to the bigots fueled by Christian fundamentalism? If you look at the Islamic religion they highly condemn violence of any sort. Most people in Iraq hate the USA because their companies have invaded the Muslem lands.
If you don't believe me when I say that Islam is not an inherently violent religion, then maybe you should read what a Muslem has to say (http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Violence/index.shtml).

("ummProfessional")these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic, is that why 4 Russians were murdered the other day!? is that why South Korean as well as Japanese civilians in Iraq trying to build infrastructure were beheaded, as well as American contractors...[/b][/quote]
Do not hate everyone because they call themselves a Muslem. Do not hate them based souly on what you see on T.V., read the Koran, learn about thier choices and actions, try to fit yourself into their mindset. Then judge them. You ever wonder where the phrase "Ignorant American" came from? Besides, if you'd listen to some Muslems who have already addressed the issues of "hating everyone who isn't Muslem", they have expressed their opinion, and backed it up with quotes from their books.
("islamonline.net")AAWW Sr. Azzizah,
In my answer to the previous questioner [Al-Astal], I explained the true meaning of Jihad and its various forms. The Qur'an teaches love [not hate] and concern for humankind irrespective of their faith choice. More than 200 verses in the Qur'an address all humankind, not just Muslims [e.g. 4:1; 49:13]. It teaches acceptance of others' right to choose their faith, condemns compulsion in religion and accepts plurality of humankind [though not plurality in ultimate truths]. Please check 2:256; 10:19; 11:118-119. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say "do not take Jews and Christians for friends" as misquoted or mistranslated [5:52 speaks of protectors not friends and for context see 5:53]. In fact Islam allows more intimate relationship than friendship; some form of interfaith marriage [5:5, see also 30:22 for the nature of marital relationship irrespective of the wife' s faith; Muslim, Jewess or Christian]. Non-Muslims who are co-existing peacefully with Muslims are to be treated like one's parents; justice, kindness, respect and love [60:8-9, note that the Arabic term Tabarroohom comes from Birr, a term used in the Qur'an and Hadeeth to refer to one's relationship with parents!]. Other verses relating to fighting or "killing" refer to those who aggressed against Muslims and mostly [especially in Chapters 8&9 of the Quran] refer to idolatrous Arabs who committed "war crimes" against Muslims. My PowerPoint file on this topic should be available soon, INS on www.isna.net [/b][/quote]

("ummProfessional")ohh yes they are "fighting" the infidels by beheading innocent civilian contractors trying to make a damn living by building infrastructure in your crap hole you call a country....[/b][/quote]
Realise that its their country to do with as they see fit.

("ummProfessional")you guys sicken me, i take it if i start killing babies for the sake of rebelling against America you idiots will support me too right? fucking nutjobs![/b][/quote]
*sigh* For like the 10 billionth time, we are agaisnt Capitalism, not America in itself. I don't blame the farmland, or the factories themselves for what the few have done.


"ummProfessional"@
"AND STOP ZIONISM" hahahah yes more anti-Semitism, you all support that as well huh these idiots are merely nationalist fascists,
I place the blame of most mass-slaughters on all religions, and fundamentalists of every flavor. We are just as much anti-Semitist as we are anti-Christian. -.- Though I do agree that most Muslem states are Fascist regiemes. Though they are not all the same. Some have worked elements of Democracy into their Theocracy... but at the end of the day, its still a Theocracy.


"ummProfessional"
if the freaking Iraqis had damn culture and weren't so damn radical with their freaking Islamic fundamentalism which fuels their hideous fascists nationalism then maybe progress could be fucking made in their crap hole and maybe we would be outta there when infrastructure was built....
... Wow. I can't believe that. You blame the Iraqi people for Islamic fundamentalism? Thats like blaming the American people for Corporate greed.

With that said, I do not support Muslemism, I just want to see it fairly represented.

[theraven]

Am I the only one who noticed the guy had a british accent?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 02:12 PM
Am I the only one who noticed the guy had a british accent?
Many english-speaking Arabs do, it isn't uncommon at all.


they are fucking bigots fueled by Islamic fundamentalism, these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic, is that why 4 Russians were murdered the other day!? is that why South Korean as well as Japanese civilians in Iraq trying to build infrastructure were beheaded, as well as American contractors...

The resistance is not a unified force. I support those Iraqi elements that aim for a free, secular society. The rest can go fuck themselves with a pineapple.


ohh yes they are "fighting" the infidels by beheading innocent civilian contractors trying to make a damn living by building infrastructure in your crap hole you call a country

Why are outside contractors building the infrastructure when unemployment among Iraqis is widespread?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:12 PM
Am I the only one who noticed the guy had a british accent?
Probably. I didn't hear a trace of a Glaswegian, Edinbourough, Yorkshire, Scouse, Brummey, Midlands, Cockney or any other regional accent.

[Comrade-Z]

yes you support anyone who is against AMERICA

How are they against AMERICA? As far as I can tell, they are fighting the U.S. military and sections of the U.S. ruling class trying to neo-colonize the country. I don't feel like they are against me or any of the people that I know.

And I wouldn't call it "support," so much, as saying that we don't oppose their resistance.


they are fucking bigots fueled by Islamic fundamentalism

Not the entirety of the resistance. Some are secular nationalists.


these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic

True, they don't like people who aren't Islamic, any more than Christian fundamentalists don't like Marilyn Manson or other such "sinners" who aren't Christian.

But that doesn't entirely explain why they are violently resisting the U.S. military, or why they (presumably) attacked the WTC towers on 9/11. Getting fucked over by British, U.S., and Israeli over the last century imperialism has something to do with it too. Oh, and the U.S. military invaded their country. Twice. And the U.S. government supplied a secular dictator of Iraq with chemical weapons and other material aid, and then found it acceptable when he used those weapons on domestic and foreign individuals.

Yeah, I'd say they have good reason to be pissed off at the U.S. military and ruling class.

That said, Muslims are reactionary bastards, and it is a historical accident that we find ourselves facing a common enemy. And like I said, it's not like we've made them our "friends." It's just that we aren't going to ***** and moan when the Iraqi Resistance kicks the U.S. military's ass and liberates the country from foreign imperialism.

If history and current events are any indicator, the best way to actually increase religious fundamentalism is to degrade the country's material conditions and put it under foreign imperialism, especially if that imperialism is predominantly of a different religion. The best way to decrease religious fundamentalism seems to be to let the country develop its own native capitalist class free from imperial bondage, and let the country fight out its own ideological battles, which will be titled in favor of secularism as capitalism continually replaces feudalistic living in Iraq.


is that why 4 Russians were murdered the other day!?

You're going to whine about 4 Russians getting killed when an estimated 105,000+ Iraqis have been killed since the beginning of the war?


ohh yes they are "fighting" the infidels by beheading innocent civilian contractors trying to make a damn living by building infrastructure in your crap hole you call a country

You should note that that infrastructure is being built to strengthen the pro-imperial lackey regime and U.S. corporate colonization in Iraq. Is it really going to benefit Iraq in the long run, as long as the imperial presence is there, to allow this infrastructure to persist and strengthen the imperial subjugation of their country? Or would it be a better idea to destroy the infrastructure now, drive out the imperialists, and rebuild it again, but this time under genuine Iraq control?

If you're still having trouble with this line of argument, just imagine the U.S. getting invaded by China, with China giving the excuse of giving "genuine democracy to the U.S." and "confiscating the U.S.'s weapons of mass destruction, which are a threat to China's and the world's security." So China invades and installs a pro-Chinese puppet government. Sure, they do it under the guise of free elections, but those who are elected have very little leverage whatsoever when it comes to doing what they want, with the Chinese military occupying the country. Obviously, the regime is not going to make the Chinese government angry. Then you find out that Chinese companies are flooding into the U.S. and, ostensibly, building infrastructure "for our own good," although you realize that once they get things stable and running, the U.S. is just going to become one huge wealth-farm for China. Hmmm...what would you do?


i take it if i start killing babies for the sake of rebelling against America

I don't see how that would accomplish anything in terms of rebelling against "America" (meaning, the U.S. government and ruling class, which is what we are really interested in rebelling against).


AND STOP ZIONISM" hahahah yes more anti-Semitism

Having 6 million people of a nation killed in genocide doesn't give that nation justification to turn right around and oppress other nations.


ohh yes how badly we raped them and battered their homeland, same can be said about Japan

The U.S. ruling class allowed those countries to retain much of their wealth and relative autonomy for U.S. imperial strategic purposes. Think Asian Marshall Plan. U.S. imperialism needed a strong set of allies in that region to contain Chinese imperialism and help the U.S. safeguard its imperial possessions in the Phillippines and Vietnam. It has nothing to do with any sort of "benevolence" of the U.S. ruling class.


if the freaking Iraqis had damn culture

They do have culture, just not a type that we like very much.


and maybe we would be outta there when infrastructure was built

Oh, you are one gullible sucker. Do you believe everything the U.S. government tells you?

What if someone were to say to you:

"Hey, I want to break into your house when you aren't home in order to...remodel it. Specifically your windows. You see, your windows are not energy efficient at all. They leak heat, and they are doing you no good at all. So I'm going to break into your house--through the windows, and remodel your house for you--whether you like it or not. It will be for your own good. If you do happen to be there, I guess I'll just have to tie you up in the closet until I've finished, because for some odd reason, you'll object to my breaking into your house. Besides, the house needs to be totally under my command at first before I can remodel it. Yeah, that's the ticket. And once I've finished rebuilding the windows I smashed in the first place, I'll leave your house without taking any money or possessions whatsoever. I'm just that nice. :D Please don't sabotage or booby-trap your house in an effort to stop me. That would be so childish!" :o

[ummProfessional]

Zero


As opposed to the bigots fueled by Christian fundamentalism? If you look at the Islamic religion they highly condemn violence of any sort. Most people in Iraq hate the USA because their companies have invaded the Muslem lands.
If you don't believe me when I say that Islam is not an inherently violent religion, then maybe you should read what a Muslem has to say.

and who says i support bigots fueled by Christian fundamentalism? does it look to you like i support Pat Robertson? :huh: and wow Islam condems violence yeah and so does Christianity your not telling me anything with this, at least i don't see Christians blowing themselves up in the name OF JESUS!!! and USA companies have invaded "Muslem" lands, ahh yes they are the SACRED lands of the PROPHET! and no infidels are supposed to be there, if that isn't nationalistic fascism i don't know what is !


Do not hate everyone because they call themselves a Muslem. Do not hate them based souly on what you see on T.V., read the Koran, learn about thier choices and actions, try to fit yourself into their mindset. Then judge them. You ever wonder where the phrase "Ignorant American" came from? Besides, if you'd listen to some Muslems who have already addressed the issues of "hating everyone who isn't Muslem", they have expressed their opinion, and backed it up with quotes from their books.

dude you surely are dillusional, the Koran can say whatever the fuck it wants, yet that didn't keep Osama commiting 9/11!! you must be out of your mind!! and who says i hate Muslims? you sure like PUTTING WORDS ON MY MOUTH!! ;)


Realise that its their country to do with as they see fit.

ahh yes so you think it was ok genocide in Germany, it was their country, so we should have allowed them to realise as they see fit!! :lol: you are surely dillusional!


*sigh* For like the 10 billionth time, we are agaisnt Capitalism, not America in itself. I don't blame the farmland, or the factories themselves for what the few have done.

so beheading civilian labor workers trying to make a living is how these fundamentalists rebel against capitalism? who are you kidding!! you think these guys are communists? you must be out of your mind, they simply HATE AMERICANS!!!


I place the blame of most mass-slaughters on all religions, and fundamentalists of every flavor. We are just as much anti-Semitist as we are anti-Christian. -.- Though I do agree that most Muslem states are Fascist regiemes. Though they are not all the same. Some have worked elements of Democracy into their Theocracy... but at the end of the day, its still a Theocracy.

"we" are as much anti-semitists and anti-christians? i don't know who your talking for but surely not me! and yes some have worked democracy into their theocracy like only IRAN that i can think of! SUPREME LEADER DECIDES EVERYTHING!! and where Christian and Jewish minorities are oppressed...


... Wow. I can't believe that. You blame the Iraqi people for Islamic fundamentalism? Thats like blaming the American people for Corporate greed.

With that said, I do not support Muslemism, I just want to see it fairly represented.

well who else is to blame for Islamic fundamentalism? it grows and survives and it's fueled in their culture.. corporate "greed" is something all humans suffer from, since greed is as common as love and hate which are human emotions! ...and Islam is fairly represented, i know it's not a "hateful" religion because it has some lines in the Koran who say love your neighbor bla bla bla, but surely the way it's preached and acted upon don't show this "love" and "peaceful" side of the religion!

black banner black gun


The resistance is not a unified force. I support those Iraqi elements that aim for a free, secular society. The rest can go fuck themselves with a pineapple.

FREE SECULAR! hahaha yeah keep dreaming !! i wish so too!! BUT THE INFIDEL AMERICANS ARE THE INMORAL SECULAR FORCES OF THE DEVIL!!! lol



Why are outside contractors building the infrastructure when unemployment among Iraqis is widespread?

so it has to be Iraqis? it can't be foreign contractors? why because somehow your a nationalistic fascist and you can't percieve a foreigner trying to work in your land because he is not Muslim and has somehow no "devine" right? or is it because maybe you have no FREAKING SKILLS!!! and there is no Iraqi company!! to do the damn JOB!!

Comrade-Z


How are they against AMERICA? As far as I can tell, they are fighting the U.S. military and sections of the U.S. ruling class trying to neo-colonize the country. I don't feel like they are against me or any of the people that I know.

And I wouldn't call it "support," so much, as saying that we don't oppose their resistance.

so being against America is different then being against the US military? which might i add are our loved family members and friends!! :rolleyes: and somehow fighting the US ruling class is beheading private contractors? give me a break...

and neo-colonize? did we neo-colonize South Korea and Japan? are they complaining? didn't we fucking leave? didn't we fucking rebuild all of fucking Western Europe and these Asian countries? give me a break man!! sure they will always be attached by us by some way or another and we will still maintain millitary bases in their respective countries, but for god's sake you think we are going to go into your godforsaken country spill our own soldier's blood liberate your asses from a fucking genocidal and ruthless dictator for nothing? we are going to do all of this in vain for no gain at all? ahh yes because we are angles sent by god!! lmao :rolleyes:


Not the entirety of the resistance. Some are secular nationalists

secular? i would really like to know about this resistance group, and nationalists? great, like that is such a great idea to support! :rolleyes:


True, they don't like people who aren't Islamic, any more than Christian fundamentalists don't like Marilyn Manson or other such "sinners" who aren't Christian.

yet again who says i support Pat Robertson!! the guy is our own bigot crusader!! and i believe the majority of Americans realize he is a freaking wacko!! hence why there aren't many "insurgent" groups fighting the homosexuals in this country or so on!



And the U.S. government supplied a secular dictator of Iraq with chemical weapons and other material aid, and then found it acceptable when he used those weapons on domestic and foreign individuals.

i must admit that, but you see such is the world of politics, you must play the game, and in this game you must make friends even with your enemies sometimes...it's not like it was our fault he gased the Kurds!! why because we supplied him with arms? thats as ridiculous as the Palestinians hating us because the Israelis shoot them with American made bullets!! whats next? your going to blame me because i supplied "John" with a knife that he stabbed you with?


That said, Muslims are reactionary bastards, and it is a historical accident that we find ourselves facing a common enemy. And like I said, it's not like we've made them our "friends." It's just that we aren't going to ***** and moan when the Iraqi Resistance kicks the U.S. military's ass and liberates the country from foreign imperialism.

true, but kick our ass? yeah is that the same ass kickin we got from the VietCong? lmao :rolleyes: dude loosing 10 to 1 is not an ass kick alirght!


If history and current events are any indicator, the best way to actually increase religious fundamentalism is to degrade the country's material conditions and put it under foreign imperialism, especially if that imperialism is predominantly of a different religion. The best way to decrease religious fundamentalism seems to be to let the country develop its own native capitalist class free from imperial bondage, and let the country fight out its own ideological battles, which will be titled in favor of secularism as capitalism continually replaces feudalistic living in Iraq.

so if we leave Iraq what do you think will happen? don't you think it will be even worst!? full blown Civil War! i guess you want that? and for what? for another ISLAMIC REPUBLIC to finds it's way in the hands of the damn country!



You're going to whine about 4 Russians getting killed when an estimated 105,000+ Iraqis have been killed since the beginning of the war?

you obviously didn't understand, it's to show that this isn't a battle against "capitalism" and "US Troops", it's about anyone who is foreign!! the INFIDELS....and actually ironically those 105,000 Iraqis killed who do you think killed them? Americans? :rolleyes:




You should note that that infrastructure is being built to strengthen the pro-imperial lackey regime and U.S. corporate colonization in Iraq. Is it really going to benefit Iraq in the long run, as long as the imperial presence is there, to allow this infrastructure to persist and strengthen the imperial subjugation of their country? Or would it be a better idea to destroy the infrastructure now, drive out the imperialists, and rebuild it again, but this time under genuine Iraq control?

seriously what is up with this ONLY IRAQIS thing? Jesus seriously! we are all Humans!! wtf is this patriotic crap!! as long as the damn place is benefitting what the hell do i care if its freaking MARTIANS!! did you see what has happened to Western Europe and South Korea and Japan in the "long run" as you yourself put it? ahh yes the evil of imperialism!! :rolleyes: give me a break this is all leftist bullcrap which is almost similar to freaking right wing extremists!! it's just pointless


If you're still having trouble with this line of argument, just imagine the U.S. getting invaded by China, with China giving the excuse of giving "genuine democracy to the U.S." and "confiscating the U.S.'s weapons of mass destruction, which are a threat to China's and the world's security." So China invades and installs a pro-Chinese puppet government. Sure, they do it under the guise of free elections, but those who are elected have very little leverage whatsoever when it comes to doing what they want, with the Chinese military occupying the country. Obviously, the regime is not going to make the Chinese government angry. Then you find out that Chinese companies are flooding into the U.S. and, ostensibly, building infrastructure "for our own good," although you realize that once they get things stable and running, the U.S. is just going to become one huge wealth-farm for China. Hmmm...what would you do?

first of all it's impossible for me to put myself in that position, but if i was from Zambia, i would probably have no problem with them coming!! maybe if i lived in a crap hole and with a dictator or something, than maybe i can, like i said, welcome a much needed change, and maybe if i was a theocratic fundamentalist nationalistic wacko then i would probably be in an even better position to anwser, HELL NO I DONT WANT THE IN MY LAND...but since none apply to me, it's really impossible for me to wanser them...



I don't see how that would accomplish anything in terms of rebelling against "America" (meaning, the U.S. government and ruling class, which is what we are really interested in rebelling against).

exactly, which is not what these resistance is fighting for..


Having 6 million people of a nation killed in genocide doesn't give that nation justification to turn right around and oppress other nations.

what other nations? :huh: because i know you must be joking if you think Palestine is, or ever was a nation!!


The U.S. ruling class allowed those countries to retain much of their wealth and relative autonomy for U.S. imperial strategic purposes. Think Asian Marshall Plan. U.S. imperialism needed a strong set of allies in that region to contain Chinese imperialism and help the U.S. safeguard its imperial possessions in the Phillippines and Vietnam. It has nothing to do with any sort of "benevolence" of the U.S. ruling class.

of course, who ever said about being kind? i myself accept that, remember Mother Theresa my friend? but i don't see how this differes from the "strategic" location of Iraq? the only difference is Islamic fundamentalism and nationalistic fascist sentiment, if the situation of Iraq were to happen somewhere else i can very confidently say it would be a very very different story, like for example if it happend in Cuba..


They do have culture, just not a type that we like very much.

i like the Middle Eastern culture very much, but surely not the overly religious part which right about turns everybody into very hostile....but anyways i guess i must "not like" the way woman are treated, i guess i must appriciate that and other stuff...


Oh, you are one gullible sucker. Do you believe everything the U.S. government tells you?

dude, like i said before, what do you think this is? 17th century British Empire? this is a different world, like i said sure we will make you economically attached to us, but in return you will turn out like Western Europe or South Korea and Japan, and sure we will have strategic bases in your land, and you will be one of our partners, but shit if that isn't a tradeoff for risking our own fucking skin to free your damn country and surely make it better and a damn democracy than i don't know what is!! you have to be joking if you think all of the troops will stay in Iraq for eternity and have the road blocks and controll the people the way they do now?ahh yes since this is so similar to present day South Korea , Japan, and Western Europe! LMAO!

[Loknar]

the shock of comming out of the desert and being exposed to civlization only 50 years ago...

[ummProfessional]

the shock of comming out of the desert and being exposed to civlization only 50 years ago...

well you see it all has to do with culture....we can for example observe China, which in the 19th and 20th century was literally "FORCED" by the Western powers to open up, and do business with them, yet i don't hear any stories of Chinese "insurgencies" and foreigners beheaded, and the Chinese blowing themselves up....and you can surely note that the Chinese have a very very highly civilized culture, but with that out of context, the Chinese are just not radical religious nationalistic fascists!! in their culture they don't have preachers who are looked upon as the only speakers of truth , and that go around preaching death to foreigners and anyone who doesn't follow a certain "religion" etc..surely if the majority of Americans took Pat Robertson as the speaker of truth, this would be way different country..

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Not a word about Saddam, the only real criminal in all this tragedy.

[Comrade-Z]

so being against America is different then being against the US military?

Yes.


which might i add are our loved family members and friends!!

Not mine.

Besides, I don't stay friends with people who volunteer to be the U.S. government's professional killers and bullies. And fulfilling that role--and strengthening the ruling class and weaking cohesion in the world proletariat in that manner--is tantamount to punching me, a member of the working class, in the face. I wouldn't even let family members get away with that. Blood relations who punch me in the face seriously weaken my affection for them by doing so.


and somehow fighting the US ruling class is beheading private contractors?

It sends a message and possibly spreads fear among the private contractor corps, making them more loathe to fulfill their missions, does it not?


didn't we fucking rebuild all of fucking Western Europe and these Asian countries?

I think you are giving the U.S. a little bit too much credit on this. And besides, it was in our ruling class's interest to do so.


they will always be attached by us by some way or another and we will still maintain millitary bases in their respective countries

Oh, but who cares about that? :angry:

How would you feel if China had military bases in the U.S.? How would you feel if the Chinese military evicted all of the farmers of Ava, Missouri, in order to build a new military base on the premises? Because that's what South Koreans are having to deal with right now.


we are going to do all of this in vain for no gain at all?

That's what Bush has been claiming--that the U.S. military is there simply to "bring democracy."


secular? i would really like to know about this resistance group, and nationalists? great, like that is such a great idea to support!

The various factions of the Iraqi Resistance (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0910/p11s01-coop.html).

It's stupid to expect them to be internationalist at this point. Internationalist consciousness springs from, among other things, a basis from which people of different nations can approach each other from equal footings and with respect, and from there foster an understanding of solidarity. At this point in Iraq, nationalism and especially modern capitalism would be very progressive.


hence why there aren't many "insurgent" groups fighting the homosexuals in this country or so on!

No, but there is "Battle Cry Christian Youth" or whatever it's called. It was discussed in the religion forum a while back. Basically it's the beginning of a Christian Fascist youth paramilitary organization, it seems to anyone with some foresight and sense of history.


it's not like it was our fault he gased the Kurds!!

Well, yeah, partly, especially when our government finds that perfectly acceptable and keeps on giving Saddam more supplies.


thats as ridiculous as the Palestinians hating us because the Israelis shoot them with American made bullets!!

So I guess the Spanish fascists had no reason to hate the Soviet Union, just because the Soviet Union was supplying arms to the anti-fascist forces? Please. It's not at all ridiculous.


true, but kick our ass? yeah is that the same ass kickin we got from the VietCong? lmao dude loosing 10 to 1 is not an ass kick alirght!

They won their independence, and the greatest military machine in the world was humiliated.


so if we leave Iraq what do you think will happen? don't you think it will be even worst!? full blown Civil War! i guess you want that? and for what? for another ISLAMIC REPUBLIC to finds it's way in the hands of the damn country!

There will be an Islamic Republic for, let's say 10 years, and then things will get better. Iraq and its emerging capitalist elements will help produce a native opposition to fundamentalism--a sort of Middle-Eastern "Enlightenment" in which religion is assaulted ideologically and eventually physically. But if we stay there, expect things to just get worse and for fundamentalism to take longer to get back to pre-invasion levels. After all, at least Iraq was a quasi-secular society under Saddam.


it's about anyone who is foreign!!

Well, why should there be foreign militaries in their country? Try to put yourself in their shoes.


and actually ironically those 105,000 Iraqis killed who do you think killed them? Americans?

Yes. The Lancet study specifically dealt with deaths directly attributable to the U.S. invasion and occupation.


seriously what is up with this ONLY IRAQIS thing?

Yeah, it's called national independence. We had some beef with the British over it about 230 years ago. Our national independence war is much celebrated today. Why the double standard?

Edit: In fact, the British are like a slap on the wrist compared to the U.S. in Iraq. Quartering without consent, taxation without representation, 3 people getting killed in the Boston Massacre?! Boo-fuckin'-hoo. How about having your country fucking invaded and partially destroyed?! How about having your environment polluted with DU and other toxic shit, like napalm and white phosphorus? How about enforcing useless, murderous sanctions on a country and killing an estimated 500,000 children?


i would probably have no problem with them coming!!

My god, you are gullible. You don't think the foreign ruling class will want to exploit you just as much as the native one did?


exactly, which is not what these resistance is fighting for..

Yes it is. They are fighting the U.S. military and ruling class in a war of national independence.


because i you must be joking if you think Palestine is or ever was a nation!!

The Palestinians certainly consider themselves to be a homogenous group of some sort.


what do you think this is? 17th century British Empire?

Do you think empires have qualitatively changed their modus operandi since the 17th century? They get away with as much as they can, as they always did. I imagine that one reason the U.S. can't *****-slap South Korea, Japan, Germany, and the like is because those countries are stronger than Iraq, and their citizens won't tolerate being overtly *****-slapped.


but shit if that isn't a tradeoff for risking our own fucking skin to free your damn country and surely make it better and a damn democracy than i don't know what is!!

You still think the U.S. ruling class intends to do both. Like I said, do you believe everything they tell you?


you have to be joking if you think all of the troops will stay in Iraq for eternity

As long as the U.S. can get away with it.


and have the road blocks and controll the people the way they do now?

No, those road blocks will be unnecessary once (or if) the U.S. can establish a relatively stable puppet regime that can police its own citizens.

Edit:


well you see it all has to do with culture....we can for example observe China, which in the 19th and 20th century was literally "FORCED" by the Western powers to open up, and do business with them, yet i don't hear any stories of Chinese "insurgencies" and foreigners beheaded, and the Chinese blowing themselves up

Are you familiar with the Boxer Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion)?

[Abolish Communism]

Comrade-Z:

From my point of view you really said some very far out things about the military, and the role of its troops.

These comments about "punching you in the face" (your class that is) because they are members of the Navy or whatever, it's pretty far off.

Because you believe in revolutionary means to change the political structure of the United States and replace its constitutional democracy with a revolutionary socialist one, that means you support the idea of an army, which would probably fight the U.S. Army.

It is my opinion that for the revolution you support to be successful, (it is also my opinion that such a revolution will never occur, but that's another matter) there must eventually be support from what you would call a People's Army, made up of alien citizens invading from. probably, Mexico. This notion is based on the idea that if large numbers of Americans were supporting a leftist revolution, Mexico would nearly already be there, or deep in the fight.

During this fight, wouldn't you join in on the fight, becoming a trooper yourself (regardless of uniform or rank, etc.), and have to fight people of your own country?

How does that all work with the punching in the face and so forth? Along these lines, have you ever had to say to a relation, "You are my class enemy, and you are figuratively punching me in the face?" Also, why limit it to soldiers? What about those relatives of yours who own stock, or have some interests in private wealth? You must have someone that isn't a worker-bee. I didn't mean this to get so personal, but your comments were very harsh and hard to take.

Fourth of July is about to come up, and you and I will have invites to go to some picnic or whatever (you living in the Bible Belt). Like me (you're about 3 years older) you're going to be around a lot of people who don't share your views. Don't you put them aside for a day and just relax and eat potato salad, and light off fireworks and play with your nephews and swim? Do you being up politics?

[Zero]

Originally posted by "ummProfessional[/quote+--> ("ummProfessional[/quote)and who says i support bigots fueled by Christian fundamentalism? does it look to you like i support Pat Robertson? and wow Islam condems violence yeah and so does Christianity your not telling me anything with this, at least i don't see Christians blowing themselves up in the name OF JESUS!!! and USA companies have invaded "Muslem" lands, ahh yes they are the SACRED lands of the PROPHET! and no infidels are supposed to be there, if that isn't nationalistic fascism i don't know what is ![/b]
I didn't mean to say that you support Christian fundamentalists, I'm trying to say that you condemn Muslems for the actions of the few.

By the way, Nationalistic Fascism is sort of a redundant term, as Fascism is inherently Nationalistic. Muslem Theocracy (Saudi Arabia for example) is itself a 'benevolent dictatorship' as if you don't please the general population, and become greedy you are not considered a Muslem anymore; and according to most Muslem groups you are no longer fit to rule, and can be legitimately removed from power. I'm not saying that this is a society I wish to live in, but in the Muslem world, this is accepted and respected.


Originally posted by "ummProfessional"+--> ("ummProfessional")dude you surely are dillusional, the Koran can say whatever the fuck it wants, yet that didn't keep Osama commiting 9/11!! you must be out of your mind!! and who says i hate Muslims? you sure like PUTTING WORDS ON MY MOUTH!![/b]
Some people (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change+9%2F11) have shown that Osama may have not planned and carried out 9/11. Also, why do you insist on judging an entire culture (that has been a organized religion longer then Christianity has been, maybe even Judism) without reading their litterature? If you lived in Saudi Arabia, or India, then thats a different story; but if your going to try to convince people that an entire sect of Humanity that: "these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic" then I think you should at least *try* walking a mile in their shoes. It's only fair.

("ummProfessional")ahh yes so you think it was ok genocide in Germany, it was their country, so we should have allowed them to realise as they see fit!![/b][/quote]
Okay, first off, it was not a genocide, it was a mass slaughter (Judism isn't a race, Homosexuality isn't a race, mental retardation isn't a race.) Second of all, I don't see the relationship between American companies coming into another country and draining the main source of income, and a mass slaughter in the name of a "master race".

I'm trying to say that the USA does not need to practice vigilante justice. We aren't alone in this world.

("ummProfessional")so beheading civilian labor workers trying to make a living is how these fundamentalists rebel against capitalism? who are you kidding!! you think these guys are communists? you must be out of your mind, they simply HATE AMERICANS!!![/b][/quote]
You missunderstand me. You said that we would support you if you killed babies "in the name of rebelling against America" I stated that we aren't against the American people, we're against Capitalism, and Imperialism (though I suppose Pat Robertson and Bill O`Riley would dissagree) and last time I checked babies weren't on my shopping list :lol: .
I'm sure that these people are against the concept of Western culture, and therefore against America, the U.K., Canada, and other Liberal societies. I'm also not trying to legitimize the stuff the extremists do. I'm trying to say that 'Joe Muslem' doesn't have a schedule along the lines of:
8:00 AM: pray
10:00 AM: find infidel, eat children
noon: pray

("ummProfessional")"we" are as much anti-semitists and anti-christians? i don't know who your talking for but surely not me! and yes some have worked democracy into their theocracy like only IRAN that i can think of! SUPREME LEADER DECIDES EVERYTHING!! and where Christian and Jewish minorities are oppressed...[/b][/quote]
"we" as in most Communists, Socialists, and Anarchists on this message board.
Here (http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/politics/Politics/article01.shtml) is a little insight to Democracy inside their society... though without firsthand experiance, or a reliable source I suppose its a toss up. Muslemism as a lifestyle and socio-cultural/political belief that is completely different then that of Western lifestyle. What is enjoyed there as rights could be completely different then what is accepted here as the "norm".

("ummProfessional")well who else is to blame for Islamic fundamentalism?[/b][/quote]
Islamic fundamentalists.

("ummProfessional")it grows and survives and it's fueled in their culture..[/b][/quote]
But I thought you thought that they didn't have any culture? I think that before we judge such a widespread belief we should at least look at it from their point of view.

("ummProfessional")corporate "greed" is something all humans suffer from, since greed is as common as love and hate which are human emotions![/b][/quote]
Greed is not an emotion, greed is a choice. You have the option of being greedy, or sharing. (Mother Theresa vs Phil Knight for instance)


"ummProfessional"@
...and Islam is fairly represented,
I ment on RevLeft.


"ummProfessional"
i know it's not a "hateful" religion because it has some lines in the Koran who say love your neighbor bla bla bla, but surely the way it's preached and acted upon don't show this "love" and "peaceful" side of the religion!
Like I said before, I'm not trying to legitimize the things thats committed in the name of Islamism. I'm trying to tell/show you that Islamism is not represented by radicals. Just as Christianity isn't represented by the KJV... or at least I hope its not, I don't feel like having my head bashed in for being an "unbeliever". =\

[imperialist]

There are a good many America haters here. It is good to see you are all concentrated in one place. It makes it easier for the CIA to track you no doubt.


Not a word about Saddam, the only real criminal in all this tragedy.

Saddam? NOO! :rolleyes: Is'nt he the good guy who fought against imperialist agression? Who would have thought he was a criminal?

And who does the insurgency fight for if not Saddam? Some would liberate him if they knew where he was? They claim they can pick their targets. Why can't they find Saddam if they're so advanced? I mean really, the insurgeny is weak as anything. Its way less than the resistence against NAZI occupiers in WW2. We, the republics of the world will win this war; Iraq will become democratic and free, Islam will secularise, capitalism will prevail, as it always does.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:33 AM
There are a good many America haters here. It is good to see you are all concentrated in one place. It makes it easier for the CIA to track you no doubt.

I think I speak for most people her when I say: a) NO WE DO NOT HATE 'AMERICA' or even most of its people. We hate its government, so maybe yes the CIA may have some intrest in us, but b) many of us (myself included) live outside the CIA's area of legitamacy and to have that paticular organisation coming for us would lead to international incednt. Oh and c) what the fuck would the CIA (or MI% or whatever) want with a bunch of well spoken, philosophical and open people, this isn't the Cold War anymore.




Not a word about Saddam, the only real criminal in all this tragedy.

Saddam? NOO! :rolleyes: Is'nt he the good guy who fought against imperialist agression? Who would have thought he was a criminal?

I don't think anyone on this board thinks saddam qualifies as truly fighting against imperialist agression (especially a few years back when he was bum chums with the U$A)


And who does the insurgency fight for if not Saddam?

The freedom of their homeland. If troops rolled in up my back garden I would take up arms to fight them but I sure as fuck wouldn't be fighting for Tony Blair or the leeching classes.

Some would liberate him if they knew where he was? They claim they can pick their targets. Why can't they find Saddam if they're so advanced?
Yes I know that ba'athists are cretins but i doubt that even they think they can actually get Saddam back.


I mean really, the insurgeny is weak as anything. Its way less than the resistence against NAZI occupiers in WW2.
So? The two things are in entirely different contexts, for example the iraqi resitance has no aid from other nations.

We, the republics of the world will win this war; Iraq will become dominated and enslaved, Islam will secularise, capitalism will destroy, as it always does.
Edited for truth.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:30 PM
FREE SECULAR! hahaha yeah keep dreaming !! i wish so too!! BUT THE INFIDEL AMERICANS ARE THE INMORAL SECULAR FORCES OF THE DEVIL!!! lol
No need to wish, there are secular elements in the resistance, though they've been largely overshadowed in the media by the Islamists, which is a shame. All people have the right to self-determination against occupation and oppression, armed if necessary, and I support that, but I don't have uncritical support for the entire "resistance," nor does the resistance represent any sort of unified force.

You seem to be making the mistake that expressing critical support for some elements of the resistance makes me a supporter of the Islamist elements (despite me stating the contrary clearly), so let me be clear: I don't support the reactionary elements of the resistance that aim to establish a theocratic state or wage sectarian warfare. Clear?



so it has to be Iraqis? it can't be foreign contractors? why because somehow your a nationalistic fascist and you can't percieve a foreigner trying to work in your land because he is not Muslim and has somehow no "devine" right?

No, I explained my reasoning in the first post. It has nothing to do with religion (I don't give a fuck about religion) and has everything to do with the fact that many Iraqis are unemployed and any labor occuring in the country should go to them first so that they can get back on their feet after the invasion and occupation. How can you propose to be helping them if you're leaving them unemployed? That just makes people more desperate and angrier against the occupation, leading to more violence.


or is it because maybe you have no FREAKING SKILLS!!! and there is no Iraqi company!! to do the damn JOB!!

I doubt that there is no one in Iraq has the skills to build infrastructure. <_<

[Comrade-Z]

There are a good many America haters here.

I have no hate towards 95% of the American population. Most people in America are fine, although I have serious disagreements with a lot of them on a number of issues (naturally, considering my politics). But it has nothing to do with their nationality.


I think I speak for most people her when I say: a) NO WE DO NOT HATE &#39;AMERICA&#39; or even most of its people. We hate its government

and its ruling class (its corporate elite), and to a lesser extent its paid lackeys, such as the U.S. military and various puppet regimes.


These comments about "punching you in the face" (your class that is) because they are members of the Navy or whatever, it&#39;s pretty far off.

Because you believe in revolutionary means to change the political structure of the United States and replace its constitutional democracy with a revolutionary socialist one, that means you support the idea of an army, which would probably fight the U.S. Army.

You acknowledge right there that the U.S. Army is my enemy. So why would I look kindly on class traitors who sign up with an enemy force?

And your conception of what exactly I&#39;m aiming for is a little off, but I&#39;m not going to derail the topic by bringing that up.


It is my opinion that for the revolution you support to be successful, (it is also my opinion that such a revolution will never occur, but that&#39;s another matter) there must eventually be support from what you would call a People&#39;s Army, made up of alien citizens invading from. probably, Mexico. This notion is based on the idea that if large numbers of Americans were supporting a leftist revolution, Mexico would nearly already be there, or deep in the fight.

I don&#39;t see why this would be the case. I would think that Mexico would have less revolutionary communist activity than the U.S. at that point, mostly because Mexico&#39;s capitalism is less well-developed and exhausted. That could change, though, I guess. I also don&#39;t see why the U.S. wouldn&#39;t be able to furnish enough of its own domestic insurrection to get the job done. And besides, if Mexico was undergoing a revolution at the same time, wouldn&#39;t they be busy tackling their own problems?


During this fight, wouldn&#39;t you join in on the fight, becoming a trooper yourself (regardless of uniform or rank, etc.), and have to fight people of your own country?

If we are talking about a successful revolution in the U.S., then the vast majority of the population will be on the side of revolutionaries. That is, I&#39;ll be fighting with most of the people of my own country against a much smaller proportion of the people of my own country (the capitalist class, the police, the military, although I would expect even the military to defect to the side of the revolutionaries before too long, if history is any guide).


Along these lines, have you ever had to say to a relation, "You are my class enemy, and you are figuratively punching me in the face?"

I don&#39;t have relations enlisted in the U.S. military. But I have criticized strangers for their role in the military. For instance, when there were military recruiters at my school, I would often go up to them and ask them why they joined the military, and if they saw themselves as being pawns or "government issue" without any say over their actions, and I would let them know that I thought the U.S. military&#39;s various imperialist actions, such as the one in Iraq, were not helpful.


What about those relatives of yours who own stock, or have some interests in private wealth?

What relatives? Even my extended family isn&#39;t that wealthy.


Fourth of July is about to come up, and you and I will have invites to go to some picnic or whatever (you living in the Bible Belt). Like me (you&#39;re about 3 years older) you&#39;re going to be around a lot of people who don&#39;t share your views. Don&#39;t you put them aside for a day and just relax and eat potato salad, and light off fireworks and play with your nephews and swim? Do you being up politics?

I plan to avoid nationalist bullshit and as much as possible this 4th of July. My family and I, we are thinking of going camping. And none of my family members is nationalistic. We do like to mess with fireworks from a purely entertainment/pyrotechnic standpoint. If we run into people who are big on the nationalism, we&#39;ll just try to ignore them as best as possible, unless it becomes unbearable. Unfortunately, it&#39;s more uncomfortable discussing contentious politics with people in person, because there&#39;s more of an ego to get bruised with them. And you naturally don&#39;t want to see people around you angry. And what good would it do? If they are really nationalistic, you&#39;re not going to change their minds. Like with this discussion, I don&#39;t really expect to change your mind. Our debate, in reality, is aimed at third-parties who are on the fence on this issue and reading this back-and-forth exchange as observers. And the nice thing about the internet is you can really say what you think without having to worry about getting punched in the face. Of course, if there ever does develop a seriously revolutionary situation, the social niceties take a backseat.

[Abolish Communism]

Z:

Thanks for your response. I wasn&#39;t trying to change minds; just wondering how someone could be so intense in their thinking that a military person is a "class soldier" and your enemy. Hardly any of them think that way. If there was an invasion by armed forces in coordination with a homegrown group*, the military would protect the lives of the citizens, not run around asking people whether they owned property and stock in companies. Soldiers would protect your lives because you were an American fighting an invasion, not running economic portfolios on you.

*You and I seem to disagree about how a revolution would unfold. You believe the large numbers of Americans would join the revolution against the capitalist classes; that about 4/5 of the country would be socialist in thinking. This is VERY weird to everyone I know. Most people I know would never abandon the simple freedom enjoyed by being an American for a socialist dictatorship, based on class eqaulity. In fact I&#39;ve never met someone face to face who would say, "I will exchange the Bill of Rights" and democracy so everyone can have the same pay; the same housing; the same medical, etc. (and the Revolution would be betrayed by its own leadership anyway, ala Vietnam, China, and Russia; the leadership would become fake and protect its own interests)." For this reason, I believe that revolution you suggest would be part of an invasion from Mexico. Mexicans would be convinced that they have a right to live anywhere and that the U.S. "owed" them whatever. I see this occurring easier than I see the homegrown version.

Thanks for your response. I&#39;m sorry if it got personal (asking you about your life and all).

[Hiero]

these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic, is that why 4 Russians were murdered the other day&#33;? is that why South Korean as well as Japanese civilians in Iraq trying to build infrastructure were beheaded, as well as American contractors

All thoose you named are occupying the country, or making a profit out of occupation. That is why they have killed these nationalities, it has nothing to do with religion. You can probally find examples where all groups of the insurgancy have killed pro-occupation Muslims.

[ummProfessional]

Comrade Z :


which might i add are our loved family members and friends&#33;&#33;

Not mine. Besides, I don&#39;t stay friends with people who volunteer to be the U.S. government&#39;s professional killers and bullies. And fulfilling that role--and strengthening the ruling class and weaking cohesion in the world proletariat in that manner--is tantamount to punching me, a member of the working class, in the face. I wouldn&#39;t even let family members get away with that. Blood relations who punch me in the face seriously weaken my affection for them by doing so.


not yours huh&#33;&#33; so what makes you support the Iraqis, it&#39;s not your homeland&#33; so why the "double standard" ;) and yes young kids trying to get money to pay off college after military service are professional killers and bullies&#33;&#33; lmao jesus i think it&#39;s just pointless to argue with you..yeah they are killers but the Iraqi insurgents aren&#39;t&#33;&#33; lmao what kind of American are you? get the fuck out then&#33;&#33;


It sends a message and possibly spreads fear among the private contractor corps, making them more loathe to fulfill their missions, does it not?

so because it sends a message it makes it perfectly alright, well guess what? me eating babies sure makes a statement as well does it not?


think you are giving the U.S. a little bit too much credit on this. And besides, it was in our ruling class&#39;s interest to do so.

im giving the US too much credit? then who do we give it too? to Aliens from Planet K-Pax? and i don&#39;t care if it was in the best interest of 1st grade math teachers, who are the ones who beneffited from this? or are you meaning to tell me North Korea is better off than the South? aren&#39;t Korea and Japan 2 of the top Asian countries? please make a point if your just going to talk mambo jambo


Oh, but who cares about that?

How would you feel if China had military bases in the U.S.? How would you feel if the Chinese military evicted all of the farmers of Ava, Missouri, in order to build a new military base on the premises? Because that&#39;s what South Koreans are having to deal with right now

i already told you it&#39;s impossible for me to imagine these things&#33;&#33; but i can honestly tell you im no nationalist, and i don&#39;t care if my bosses are Pakistanis or from Uzbekistan, i don&#39;t look at nationality to make me feel in a certain way


That&#39;s what Bush has been claiming--that the U.S. military is there simply to "bring democracy."

umm no? i didn&#39;t mean this at all, democracy would be something we are giving dumb ass, im refering what we are going to get in return&#33;&#33; which is a country to have stategic bases on , and plus, OIL&#33;&#33;&#33; which is why we aint gonna do all this for nothing?&#33;and i doubt Bush has said this publicaly, he might be dumb, but not mentally retarded&#33; lmao


The various factions of the Iraqi Resistance.

It&#39;s stupid to expect them to be internationalist at this point. Internationalist consciousness springs from, among other things, a basis from which people of different nations can approach each other from equal footings and with respect, and from there foster an understanding of solidarity. At this point in Iraq, nationalism and especially modern capitalism would be very progressive.

secular Baathists, wow &#33; lmao and who is talking about INTERNATIONALISTS? what im talking about is , if there is a country who has the fucking resources to rebuild my fucking homeland for a better future, then whats the point of being hostile towards them? thats like me being mad to a plumber, and saying NO&#33; don&#39;t go in there, only i can go into this part of my house&#33;&#33; dude&#33; im the fucking plumber, let me do my job&#33;&#33;


No, but there is "Battle Cry Christian Youth" or whatever it&#39;s called. It was discussed in the religion forum a while back. Basically it&#39;s the beginning of a Christian Fascist youth paramilitary organization, it seems to anyone with some foresight and sense of history.

ohh god please, are you that dillusional? sometimes im amazed with the type of weird people i come in contact through this website, dude SURE there is a christian fascist youth, i could care less&#33; this is a free country&#33; there can be a "HOMOSEXUAL ONLY GROUP", as long as they do peaceful demonstrations and don&#39;t fucking touch me then it&#39;s alright, it&#39;s not like they are ever going to get more then 100 supporters or something&#33;&#33;


Well, yeah, partly, especially when our government finds that perfectly acceptable and keeps on giving Saddam more supplies

we kept giving him supplies? let me see the proof&#33; and we found it perfectly acceptable, well then i guess you ought to blame the whole world&#33;&#33; same can go for blaming the whole world for Rwanda&#33;&#33; :rolleyes:


So I guess the Spanish fascists had no reason to hate the Soviet Union, just because the Soviet Union was supplying arms to the anti-fascist forces? Please. It&#39;s not at all ridiculous.

ummm NO&#33; funny how you didn&#39;t argue the knife analogy


They won their independence, and the greatest military machine in the world was humiliated.

so if im fighting you to get your lunch money and im beating your ass, but my girl tells me to leave you alone, and i leave, i guess it&#39;s somehow a humiliation to me huh&#33;? :rolleyes:



There will be an Islamic Republic for, let&#39;s say 10 years, and then things will get better. Iraq and its emerging capitalist elements will help produce a native opposition to fundamentalism--a sort of Middle-Eastern "Enlightenment" in which religion is assaulted ideologically and eventually physically. But if we stay there, expect things to just get worse and for fundamentalism to take longer to get back to pre-invasion levels. After all, at least Iraq was a quasi-secular society under Saddam.

hahahaa, there will be an Islamic Republic for 10 years&#33; wow what else Nostradamus? lol yeah well guess what there has been one for 30 years in Iran&#33; you think humans are about to give up religion? specially where there is almost no atheists, and where religion is so deeply embeded in the root of the culture? dude you must be out of your mind&#33;&#33;


Well, why should there be foreign militaries in their country? Try to put yourself in their shoes.

well why not? is that somehow a crime? or are you just a fascist nationalist who can&#39;t percieve this&#33; did the Koreans feel this way? did the Western Europeans feel this way? that would have been ridiculous for the Europeans to say GO FUCK OFF AMERICANS&#33;&#33; when we were rebuilding their shithole after WW2&#33;&#33; i guess it isn&#39;t ridiculous now with Iraq?


Yes. The Lancet study specifically dealt with deaths directly attributable to the U.S. invasion and occupation.

the Lancet study? link?data?proof? dude road side bombs i highly doubt are the product of Americans alright&#33;&#33;


Yeah, it&#39;s called national independence. We had some beef with the British over it about 230 years ago. Our national independence war is much celebrated today. Why the double standard?

Edit: In fact, the British are like a slap on the wrist compared to the U.S. in Iraq. Quartering without consent, taxation without representation, 3 people getting killed in the Boston Massacre?&#33; Boo-fuckin&#39;-hoo. How about having your country fucking invaded and partially destroyed?&#33; How about having your environment polluted with DU and other toxic shit, like napalm and white phosphorus? How about enforcing useless, murderous sanctions on a country and killing an estimated 500,000 children?

but how are we the colonizers of Iraq in the same way Britain was? do the Iraqis not have free elections in which they choose their own Iraqi government officials? Iraq is an independant country recognized by all nations of this planet&#33; and killing an estimated 500,000 children&#33;&#33;&#33; WTF? who? when?how? please FAST&#33;&#33;


My god, you are gullible. You don&#39;t think the foreign ruling class will want to exploit you just as much as the native one did?

you mean the same way Western Europeans, South Koreans, and Japanese were exploited? umm yeah sure :huh:


Yes it is. They are fighting the U.S. military and ruling class in a war of national independence.

umm no, it&#39;s not national independance, it&#39;s called "i want to set up my own fucking Islamic Jihadist Society" or "My own fucking BAAATHIST SECULAR society" and so on bla bla bla


The Palestinians certainly consider themselves to be a homogenous group of some sort.

yeah well guess what? so do the Basques, so do the Lapp in Scandinavia, and so do the Eskimos in the North Pole, i guess we should start concidering them as oppressed people who deserve their own country, shit if that was the case 500 new countries would appear in the face of the earth&#33;&#33; get real man&#33;&#33;


Do you think empires have qualitatively changed their modus operandi since the 17th century? They get away with as much as they can, as they always did. I imagine that one reason the U.S. can&#39;t *****-slap South Korea, Japan, Germany, and the like is because those countries are stronger than Iraq, and their citizens won&#39;t tolerate being overtly *****-slapped.

those countries can&#39;t ***** slap us because they are stronger then Iraq? are you serious&#33;? we "CONTROLLED" Japan dude&#33;&#33; we eiliminated it&#39;s army&#33;&#33; for god&#39;s sake&#33;&#33; we could have stayed there and make English the official language and make Washington as their capitol and our president as their supreme leader&#33;&#33; who are you kidding? sometimes i don&#39;t understand these weird assertions you guys come up with&#33;&#33;


You still think the U.S. ruling class intends to do both. Like I said, do you believe everything they tell you?

intends to do both? of what? what are you talking about? and believe they? who is they? and what? i should believe you instead? mr COMRADE Z the leftist who supports jihadist movements? ohh surely your the speaker of truth , there is no bias or propaganda from your side&#33;&#33; :rolleyes: HAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;



As long as the U.S. can get away with it.

yes like the military presence during WW2 was never reduced , and so the same happened in South Korea and Japan&#33; hahahahaha&#33;&#33; and the same happened in CUBA&#33;&#33; hahahaha dude a base , is not the same as the whole freaking army in your country&#33;&#33;


No, those road blocks will be unnecessary once (or if) the U.S. can establish a relatively stable puppet regime that can police its own citizens.

ummm NO&#33; because the policing will be done by the Iraqi police force itself&#33;


Are you familiar with the Boxer Rebellion?

you mean that Rebellion which was crushed? yes i am familiar somewhat with it..


Zero (please somebody help this guy SOON&#33;&#33; don&#39;t want to be mean but surely he needs professional help, unfortunately i can only provide him with ummprofessionalism):


but in the Muslem world, this is accepted and respected

yup your right, i guess we shouldn&#39;t condem public executions and the treatment of woman, since it&#39;s respected and accepted by the "Muslems" :lol:


Some people have shown that Osama may have not planned and carried out 9/11. Also, why do you insist on judging an entire culture (that has been a organized religion longer then Christianity has been, maybe even Judism) without reading their litterature?

right, and some people also "BELIEVE" Osama isn&#39;t a terrorist as well&#33; hahaha

and Islam has been an organized religion longer then Christianity and Judaism?&#33;&#33;&#33; WHAAAAAT&#33;&#33;&#33; did somebody read this&#33; HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;&#33; please Zero are you serious? you must be joking right&#33; OMFG&#33;&#33; dude i suggest you get a book PRONTO&#33; incredible, how can i take you seriously if you believe Islam is older then Christianity and "maybe even Judism" HAHAHAHAHAHA&#33; :lol: dude prophet Mohammed lived 500 freaking years AFTER JESUS&#33;&#33; there had been like 20 Popes before Mohammed lmao&#33;&#33; hahaha ohh man that was funny&#33;


Okay, first off, it was not a genocide, it was a mass slaughter (Judism isn&#39;t a race, Homosexuality isn&#39;t a race, mental retardation isn&#39;t a race.)

WHAAAAT&#33;? OHH MY GOD&#33;&#33; just when i thought i had heard enough&#33; hahahahahaha&#33;&#33; YOU MUST BE HIGH&#33;&#33; since when is genocide only the killings of people because of their race? do you know what genocide is? do you know the defenition? genocide is the systematic and planned extermination of a group because of their religion, nationality, ethnic, or racial group&#33;&#33; dude get you must be 10 years old, it&#39;s really embarrassing even for me to have to teach you what GENOCIDE IS&#33;&#33; lmao

[QUOTE]I don&#39;t see the relationship between American companies coming into another country

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Some day UmmProfessional, I am going to have the energy to debate you. You should really dread that day. Everything you say is filled with bullshittery of epic proportions. Look, you&#39;ve reduced me to Ad Hominem attacks, I almost never do that. Garghh.

-Alex

[ummProfessional]

well i can surely tell you, BurntheOliveGarden, that i can&#39;t wait for that day when you actualy decide to argue with me, for me it will be a pleasure to do so with someone who uses words as "bullshittery"....hahahhaa that is fucking awsome&#33; :D

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Indeed it will be. I could point at your clearly pathetic grasp of language as evidence that you&#39;re a moron, but I don&#39;t need to, because anybody that&#39;s borrowed the family brain cell can work that one out in an instant. And it&#39;s Tree, not Garden, you fucking imbecile. :angry:

-Alex

[ummProfessional]

And it&#39;s Tree, not Garden, you fucking imbecile


BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: OHH GOD THAT&#39;S HALARIOUS&#33;&#33; hahahahahah&#33;&#33; ohh man&#33; lmao you surely have no sense of humor&#33; hahahaha well you must have never heard of the Olive Gardens, so forget it , you won&#39;t understand it lmao :lol:

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I&#39;ve already forgotten it. It was "halarious", no doubt. Anywho, i&#39;m really going to have to stop this now, i&#39;m a little ashamed for being sucked into such a petty argument. Adieus.

-Alex

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:32 PM

And it&#39;s Tree, not Garden, you fucking imbecile


BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: OHH GOD THAT&#39;S HALARIOUS&#33;&#33; hahahahahah&#33;&#33; ohh man&#33; lmao you surely have no sense of humor&#33; hahahaha well you must have never heard of the Olive Gardens, so forget it , you won&#39;t understand it lmao :lol:
how could he not get that?

[Zero]

Maybe he isn&#39;t from America?

[bcbm]

Don&#39;t I get a response, ummProfessional? :unsure:

[ummProfessional]

Don&#39;t I get a response, ummProfessional?

ohh my bad man, really sorry, it&#39;s just that i had ComradeZ and Zero that i wanted to take care off, and it was as you saw a bit long so...

alright ill get to it my friend:


No need to wish, there are secular elements in the resistance, though they&#39;ve been largely overshadowed in the media by the Islamists, which is a shame. All people have the right to self-determination against occupation and oppression, armed if necessary, and I support that, but I don&#39;t have uncritical support for the entire "resistance," nor does the resistance represent any sort of unified force.

You seem to be making the mistake that expressing critical support for some elements of the resistance makes me a supporter of the Islamist elements (despite me stating the contrary clearly), so let me be clear: I don&#39;t support the reactionary elements of the resistance that aim to establish a theocratic state or wage sectarian warfare. Clear?

fair enough, i understand the right to rebel is what you support i guess, well even if you supported them, to tell you the truth i don&#39;t care, i have the mind set where you can and should be able to believe and support whatever you want, this is the sort of society i want to be in, hence why i live in this country....


No, I explained my reasoning in the first post. It has nothing to do with religion (I don&#39;t give a fuck about religion) and has everything to do with the fact that many Iraqis are unemployed and any labor occuring in the country should go to them first so that they can get back on their feet after the invasion and occupation. How can you propose to be helping them if you&#39;re leaving them unemployed? That just makes people more desperate and angrier against the occupation, leading to more violence.

umm maybe if there was an infrastructure there would be jobs, i don&#39;t think anyone can build infrastrucute, and in fact in many pictures as well as documentaries and stuff that i have seen, for example it&#39;s Iraqi workers who are rebuilding the buildings and stuff, with foreign architects to overlook it all etc...


I doubt that there is no one in Iraq has the skills to build infrastructure.

lets just say surely not as good as us&#33; ;)



how could he not get that?

hahahaha tell me about it&#33; lol they guy must be so anti "corporations" or something, he must never go out and eat, from the tables of the bourgeoise evil witches&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: who put slave cooks to make their secret recepies in the Fettuccini Alfredo&#33;&#33; :o


Maybe he isn&#39;t from America?

or maybe he fits the above ^ HAHAHAHA :lol:

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

That was some strong propaganda. It was Clear, concise and honest.

[ummProfessional]

That was some strong propaganda. It was Clear, concise and honest.

:huh: wrong thread? what are you talking about dude?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 06:15 PM

That was some strong propaganda. It was Clear, concise and honest.

:huh: wrong thread? what are you talking about dude?
Let me have a wild guess...
Maybe the movie in the FIRST POST? :P

[ummProfessional]

ohhh lmao ok, sorry forgot what this was even all about ;) umm yeah right on broda&#33; clear precise and honest propaganda&#33;

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I&#39;m from England, to clear up the confusion. And i&#39;m still blinking dumbly at the screen over this olive garden bullshit. Enlighten me, oh brave and grammar free person.

-Alex

[Comrade-Z]

You believe the large numbers of Americans would join the revolution against the capitalist classes; that about 4/5 of the country would be socialist in thinking.

Basically, I think, IF it&#39;s going to happen, that&#39;s how it must happen in order to be successful.


Most people I know would never abandon the simple freedom enjoyed by being an American for a socialist dictatorship, based on class eqaulity

I don&#39;t want a dictatorship, and I don&#39;t want class equality. I want to dispossess the capitalist class (thereby bringing that class down to the level of everyone else) and abolish classes altogether. There&#39;s a difference.

And I don&#39;t expect this to take place tomorrow. Obviously there is not widespread support for such an endeavor now. But things change, and I have reason to think that things are changing in a favorable direction over the broad sweep of time.


and the Revolution would be betrayed by its own leadership anyway, ala Vietnam, China, and Russia; the leadership would become fake and protect its own interests

That&#39;s why we absolutely will not allow a leadership to exist in the first place. Surely we&#39;ve learned our lesson by now?


For this reason, I believe that revolution you suggest would be part of an invasion from Mexico

If the Mexican government, ruling class, and military really did stage a real invasion (instead of just having hapless proletarians immigrating to the U.S., which is fine), how would that not be an imperialist action? And why wouldn&#39;t I fight against that? Of course I would fight against that, although not within the parameters set by my own ruling class, if I had any say in the matter. I would try to participate in some sort of independent communist resistance movement that would fight both Mexican imperialism and my own ruling class.

Although, when dealing with Mexico, you have to remember that they do have some good reason to be angry with the U.S. After all, the U.S. quite frankly stole about half of their country during the 1840s, and there have been occasional U.S. military interventions (and continual U.S. corporate imperialism) ever since.


Thanks for your response. I&#39;m sorry if it got personal (asking you about your life and all).

Thank you for your interest. :)


not yours huh&#33;&#33; so what makes you support the Iraqis, it&#39;s not your homeland&#33;

I support the Iraqis&#39; struggle for independence because it is a necessary step for advancing towards proletarian solidarity with Iraqi proletarians. It&#39;s in my self-interest to support them. And proletarians, in reality, have no nation. I am on the same side as the Iraqi proletarians. But as long as Iraqis are being plundered by foreigners, they won&#39;t be able to realize that. National independence is a pre-requisite for international solidarity, which can only start from a basis of autonomy, equality, and respect.


and yes young kids trying to get money to pay off college after military service are professional killers and bullies&#33;&#33;

There are better ways for coping with their economic plights (that don&#39;t involve being the paid, armed thugs of the U.S. ruling class). Like communist revolution.

Like the Communist League says, "I&#39;ll start supporting the troops once they start supporting the revolution."

I&#39;m sure the soldiers who participated in the Wehrmacht had families to feed too. That doesn&#39;t give them an excuse for doing the ruling class&#39;s killing, though.


lmao what kind of American are you? get the fuck out then&#33;&#33;

I&#39;m not an American. I&#39;m a proletarian. I have no nation.


so because it sends a message it makes it perfectly alright, well guess what? me eating babies sure makes a statement as well does it not?

No, actually eating babies doesn&#39;t convey anything, except that you may a cannibal and/or a psychopathic individual. I don&#39;t see how you could logically tie that in with a political cause.


who are the ones who beneffited from this? or are you meaning to tell me North Korea is better off than the South? aren&#39;t Korea and Japan 2 of the top Asian countries? please make a point if your just going to talk mambo jambo

Korea and Japan were already the two most developed Asian countries in the first place.

And it&#39;s not like we just gave them lots and lots of money with no strings attached. Most of it was foreign direct investment, which means for every dollar invested in South Korea, there&#39;s a certain amount of money flowing out of South Korea into U.S. corporations. Would South Korea have been better off without our financial "integration." Hard to say. Probably not, but you&#39;re still blowing it out of proportion.


i already told you it&#39;s impossible for me to imagine these things&#33;&#33; but i can honestly tell you im no nationalist, and i don&#39;t care if my bosses are Pakistanis or from Uzbekistan, i don&#39;t look at nationality to make me feel in a certain way

But we&#39;re not talking about the nationalities of individual managers. We&#39;re talking about systemic imperial expoitation. So you wouldn&#39;t feel a twinge of anger when your region is becoming a shithole, whereas the wealth that you are producing is being siphoned, diverted, and sent all the way to China?


im refering what we are going to get in return&#33;&#33;

Bush has been soaking the invasion in an aura of altruism from day one. He hasn&#39;t said anything about staying in Iraq for, oh, 30 years (or however long is possible) or allowing U.S. corporations to get rich from exploiting Iraqis. So do you think Bush has been dishonest about that?


secular Baathists

There are other independent secular groups as well. From wikipedia:


Ba&#39;athists, the armed supporters of Saddam Hussein&#39;s former nomenclatura, e.g. army or intelligence officers;
Nationalists, mostly Sunni Muslims, who fight for Iraqi self-determination;
anti-Shi&#39;a Sunni Muslims who fight to regain the prestige they held under the previous regime (these three categories are often undistinguishable in practice);
Sunni Islamists, the indigenous armed followers of the Salafi movement, as well as any remnants of the Kurdish Ansar al-Islam;
Foreign Islamist volunteers, including those often linked to al Qaeda and largely driven by the Sunni Wahabi doctrine (the two preceding categories are often lumped as "Jihadists");
Patriotic Communists (who have split from the official Iraqi Communist Party) and other leftists;
Militant followers of Shi&#39;a Islamist cleric Moqtada al-Sadr;
Criminal insurgents who are fighting simply for money; and
Nonviolent resistance groups and political parties (not technically part of the insurgency).

So there are some nationalists and even "patriotic" self-proclaimed communists, it seems.


if there is a country who has the fucking resources to rebuild my fucking homeland for a better future, then whats the point of being hostile towards them?

But the U.S. doesn&#39;t really care about rebuilding Iraq, over and above what is necessary for keeping the Iraqi populace placated and for U.S. corporations to extract profit efficiently. You&#39;re still taking the U.S. government for their word. Bad move.


it&#39;s not like they are ever going to get more then 100 supporters or something&#33;&#33;


SURE there is a christian fascist youth, i could care less&#33; this is a free country&#33; there can be a "HOMOSEXUAL ONLY GROUP", as long as they do peaceful demonstrations and don&#39;t fucking touch me then it&#39;s alright, it&#39;s not like they are ever going to get more then 100 supporters or something&#33;&#33;

I do not share your optimism concerning the Christian youth organizations. Why does it seem to me that when religious organizations really get going, they can&#39;t help but shove their agenda down the whole society&#39;s throat? Like anti-abortion people. Or anti-gay people. Or anti-birth control people. Or pro-"family values" people (meaning, people who support patriarchical, religious, conformist, authoritarian upbringing, I guess). etc.

Of course, Christians are not necessarily unique in this respect. Any group which gains power is going to try to enforce its agenda. The thing is, I don&#39;t like the Christian agenda.


we kept giving him supplies? let me see the proof&#33;

What a Fair Trial for Saddam Would Entail (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20040125.htm)


The long, tortuous association between Saddam Hussein and the West raises questions about what issues — and embarrassments — may surface at a tribunal.
In a (virtually unimaginable) fair trial for Saddam, a defence attorney could quite rightly call to the stand Colin Powell, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush I and other high officials who provided significant support for the dictator, even through his worst atrocities.

A fair trial would at least accept the elementary moral principle of universality: The accusers and the accused must be subject to the same standards.

For a truly fair trial, it&#39;s surely relevant, as an abundance of congressional and other records show, that Washington made an unholy accommodation with Saddam during the 1980s.

The initial pretext was that Iraq staved off Iran — which it attacked with U.S. backing — but the same support continued well after the war was over.

Now, those responsible for the policies of accommodation are bringing Saddam to the bar of justice.

Rumsfeld, as Ronald Reagan&#39;s special envoy to the Middle East, visited Iraq in 1983 and 1984 to establish firmer relations with Saddam (at the same time the administration was criticizing Iraq for using chemical weapons).

Powell was Bush I&#39;s national security adviser from December, 1987, to January, 1989, and a few months later became chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Cheney was Bush I&#39;s defence secretary.

Thus, Powell and Cheney were in top decision-making positions for the period of Saddam&#39;s worst atrocities, the massacre and gassing of the Kurds in 1988 and the crushing of the Shiite rebellion in 1991 that might have overthrown him.

Today, under Bush II, Powell, Cheney and others constantly bring up those atrocities to justify beating the devil — rightly, though the crucial element of U.S. support of Saddam during this period is missing.

In October, 1989, Bush I issued a national security directive, declaring that "normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our longer-term interests and promote stability in both the Gulf and the Middle East."

The United States offered subsidized food supplies that Saddam&#39;s regime badly needed, along with advanced technology and biological agents adaptable to weapons of mass destruction.

After Saddam stepped out of line and invaded Kuwait in 1990, politics and pretexts varied, but one element remained constant: The people of Iraq must not control their country.

In 1990, the United Nations imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, administered mainly by the United States and Britain. These sanctions, which continued through president Clinton and into Bush II, are perhaps the sorriest legacy of U.S. policy toward Iraq.

No Westerners know Iraq better than Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, who served successively as U.N. humanitarian co-ordinators there from 1997 to 2000. Both resigned in protest of the sanctions, which Halliday has characterized as "genocidal."

As they and others pointed out for years, the sanctions devastated the Iraqi population while strengthening Saddam and his clique, increasing the people&#39;s dependency on the tyrant for their survival.

Whether or not this history is permitted to come out in a tribunal, the issue of who will be in charge in Iraq in the future still remains crucial and is highly contested right at this moment.

Apart from that issue, those who have been concerned with the tragedy of Iraq had three basic goals: (1) overthrowing the tyranny, (2) ending the sanctions that were targeting the people, not the rulers, and (3) preserving some semblance of world order.

There can be no disagreement among decent people on the first two goals: Achieving them is an occasion for rejoicing, particularly for those who protested U.S. support for Saddam and later opposed the murderous sanctions regime; they can therefore applaud without hypocrisy.

The second goal could surely have been achieved, and possibly the first as well, without undermining the third.

The Bush administration has openly declared its intention to dismantle what remained of the system of world order and to rule the world by force, with Iraq as a demonstration project.

That intention has elicited fear and often hatred throughout the world, and despair among those who are concerned about the likely consequences of choosing to remain complicit with the current policies of U.S. aggression at will. That is, of course, a choice very largely in the hands of the American people.


so if im fighting you to get your lunch money and im beating your ass, but my girl tells me to leave you alone, and i leave, i guess it&#39;s somehow a humiliation to me huh&#33;?

If you can&#39;t bring yourself, for whatever reason, to beat a sickly little wimp like me, then what good of a fighter are you? :lol: When faced with other sickly wimps with girlfriends, what good are you going to be against them? You&#39;re obviously nothing but a "paper-tiger."


hahahaa, there will be an Islamic Republic for 10 years&#33; wow what else Nostradamus?

That was a "for example...here&#39;s a scenario" estimate. I don&#39;t purport to know the future. But I do think it is reasonable to say that the longer the U.S. stays in Iraq, the longer it will take Iraq to recover, culturally and economically.


that would have been ridiculous for the Europeans to say GO FUCK OFF AMERICANS&#33;&#33; when we were rebuilding their shithole after WW2&#33;&#33;

I believe the French were awfully insistent that we get out of their country as soon as possible. I honestly don&#39;t see why the Germans still put up with us having military bases in their country.


the Lancet study? link?data?proof?

*Sigh*...

Death 58 times more likely after U.S. invasion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm)

100,000 deaths estimated in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html)


dude road side bombs i highly doubt are the product of Americans alright&#33;&#33;

But they wouldn&#39;t be deploying roadside bombs in the first place if the U.S. hadn&#39;t invaded, right?


but how are we the colonizers of Iraq in the same way Britain was? do the Iraqis not have free elections in which they choose their own Iraqi government officials?

Once elected, do you honestly think the Iraqi government has much freedom of action while the U.S. military still occupies their country? Let&#39;s just say, the Iraqi government isn&#39;t going to do anything to upset the U.S. government too terribly much. What kind of "freedom of elections" is that?

and killing an estimated 500,000 children&#33;&#33;&#33; WTF? who? when?how? please FAST&#33;&#33;

Unicef estimates that at least 500,000 children have died, who ordinarily would have lived. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/418625.stm)


umm no, it&#39;s not national independance, it&#39;s called "i want to set up my own fucking Islamic Jihadist Society" or "My own fucking BAAATHIST SECULAR society" and so on bla bla bla

umm no, the American revolution is not national independence, it&#39;s called "i want to set up my own fucking non-monarchical democratic society" and so on bla bla bla.
-- Anonymous British asshole, 1777.

We know you don&#39;t like their plans for Iraq. Heck, I don&#39;t like their plans for Iraq. But I think it will be better than being a U.S. imperial client state.


yeah well guess what? so do the Basques, so do the Lapp in Scandinavia, and so do the Eskimos in the North Pole, i guess we should start concidering them as oppressed people who deserve their own country, shit if that was the case 500 new countries would appear in the face of the earth&#33;&#33; get real man&#33;&#33;

If those "nations" felt strongly enough about their identity to put up armed resistance for it, then why not just give them their own stinking autonomous country and stop the needless bloodshed?


we "CONTROLLED" Japan dude&#33;&#33; we eiliminated it&#39;s army&#33;&#33; for god&#39;s sake&#33;&#33; we could have stayed there and make English the official language and make Washington as their capitol and our president as their supreme leader&#33;&#33;

I find that scenario unlikely. The Japanese economy was much stronger, comparatively, than Iraq&#39;s. And the people of Japan were not used to getting pushed around. If we had tried to make English the official language, I would wager that armed guerrilla resistance would have developed in Japan.


mr COMRADE Z the leftist who supports jihadist movements?

Once again, I don&#39;t support them. I oppose all of their policies, except when it comes to fighting U.S. imperialism. In that case, I don&#39;t oppose them. You see, I offer a very conditional, qualified non-opposition--only on certain points, namely fighting U.S. imperialism.

Eventually, we will crush Islam (most deservedly, and with the majority of the help coming from native Middle Eastern sccularists and atheists. Of course, I&#39;m talking about a point waaaaaaay in the future here :lol: ).

The sad thing is, the U.S. government seems to not care one bit about fighting Islam and its horrible practices, as long as Islam stays loyal to the U.S. government. The fundamentalist regimes in Central Asia, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia (and formerly Afghanistan) don&#39;t displease the U.S. government one bit because those regimes know not to tread on the U.S. government&#39;s toes.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 05:05 PM

these bastards have nothing better to do than hate anyone who is not Islamic, is that why 4 Russians were murdered the other day&#33;? is that why South Korean as well as Japanese civilians in Iraq trying to build infrastructure were beheaded, as well as American contractors

All thoose you named are occupying the country, or making a profit out of occupation. That is why they have killed these nationalities, it has nothing to do with religion. You can probally find examples where all groups of the insurgancy have killed pro-occupation Muslims.
Furthermore they offered to help and defend any American, British or Coalition soldiers who want to escape the war...doesn&#39;t sound like they "hate" anyone for their beliefs.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:36 PM
ohh my bad man, really sorry, it&#39;s just that i had ComradeZ and Zero that i wanted to take care off, and it was as you saw a bit long so...

alright ill get to it my friend:
No problem. :wub:


umm maybe if there was an infrastructure there would be jobs, i don&#39;t think anyone can build infrastrucute, and in fact in many pictures as well as documentaries and stuff that i have seen, for example it&#39;s Iraqi workers who are rebuilding the buildings and stuff, with foreign architects to overlook it all etc...

I still think Iraqis could manage to do all of the work themselves if the resources were made available, to the point where Iraqi companies should be getting contracts, not US ones. Wishful thinking, of course, but I see no reason for foreign oppurtunists and mercenaries to be hanging around.


lets just say surely not as good as us&#33; ;)

You&#39;re better at destroying infrastructure. :P

[ummProfessional]

well i have very little time, but i see your points Comrade Z, and basically it&#39;s just a back and forth argument, you have made yours iv made mines, our stances on the issue will stay the same...

anyways, i just wanted to talk about something i read recently, about lik 7 of the insurgent factions wanting to make a deal with the USA, and that deal is that they will stop all attacks at least from they which they promise is about 70% of all insurgent attacks if US agrees to withdraw it&#39;s troops in 2 years time or something, i think we should deeply consider this...

bye bye talk more later.

[Zero]

Yeah, like the USA will accept that offer. That would be seriously bad PR. Besides, don&#39;t we have a policy of "not negotiating with terrorists" or some shit? Or was that just Hollywood fucking with me.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

*Sigh*...

Death 58 times more likely after U.S. invasion

100,000 deaths estimated in Iraq


Your links are not credible because they continue to offer material such as the 100,000 Iraqi dead number that was discredited several months ago. You fail to properly acknowledge the people who died during the UN sanctions regime as victims of Saddam Hussein. Thus you have no credibility outside of the narrow, blind alleys of the far left. You&#39;re really not intellectually fit to have a serious discussion with.

You guys quote the words of terrorists as though they were fact.

[Rex]

I didn&#39;t find much wrong with the video. They didn&#39;t say much about creating a religous state or an opressive regime of their own.

Hell, they even mentioned something about churches. I think they just want foreign invaders to get the fuck out of their country.

The culture in the middle east is heavily tied to islam, but sans the opening and ending of the video, islam was no where to be found.

[Raj Radical]

Next time the US imperialists plans to invade a country, remember not to oppress the people while strengthing the hold of a vicious dictatorship like Saddam over them with a decade of brutal sanctions and programs.

It might work out a little better for them

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Hmmm, no responses to my reply....I wonder why.

The claim that there have been "100,000" deaths in Iraq since the invasion has been discredited several months ago.

[Raj Radical]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 30 2006, 01:34 AM

*Sigh*...

Death 58 times more likely after U.S. invasion

100,000 deaths estimated in Iraq


Your links are not credible because they continue to offer material such as the 100,000 Iraqi dead number that was discredited several months ago. You fail to properly acknowledge the people who died during the UN sanctions regime as victims of Saddam Hussein. Thus you have no credibility outside of the narrow, blind alleys of the far left. You&#39;re really not intellectually fit to have a serious discussion with.

You guys quote the words of terrorists as though they were fact.
The 100,000 toll is obviously a little generous no doubt.

Is this all a number game to you, its justified as long as its only 50,000 died?

So who is to blame for the US/UN sanctioned which strengthened the Saddam regieme and devestated the people and Iraqi middle class?