Support The Troops?

[RevMARKSman]

Should we support the United States military personnel as proletarians, or denounce them as murderers?

Proles

They are using this job to get into college.
They have been brainwashed into thinking they are "protecting us back here at home" instead of realizing that it was an imperialist war.
They may have been forced to join the military by their parents.
They may not support the war in Iraq.
This is the only job they could get.

Murderers

They knew full well when they joined that they might kill someone.
They could go into burger-flipping instead.
They believed the brainwashers rather than finding out for themselves.
Moral statement not everybody will agree with: It's better to live homeless than to live as a killer.



Also, dispute what exactly the Iraq war is about. Be specific in your claims and reasons.

[violencia.Proletariat]

They are using this job to get into college.

I have yet to see any percentages of people who've gone to college because they were in the military. If anyone has any info positive or negative I'd like to see it.

They have been brainwashed into thinking they are "protecting us back here at home" instead of realizing that it was an imperialist war.

By their parents maybe, it's not rocket science to figure out why we're in Iraq or any other country. Ever poor person should have to sense not to fight in a rich man's war.


They may have been forced to join the military by their parents.

They can't do that. They can kick you out of the house if you don't join but they can't force you to sign it.


They may not support the war in Iraq.

Then they can activley refuse to ship out like Lt. Watada

ThankYouLT.org


This is the only job they could get.

Impossible, there is almost always minimum wage work out there.


Now if someone chooses to go into the army because they don't want to live in poverty (which is a paradox because you will really be living "in the shit" and get shot at) then whatever. But don't expect us to feel bad when you die, expect us to see it as a defeat of imperialism.

[R_P_A_S]

take a lot at the avg. U.S. soldier. people forget sometime they think they are upper class all american blonde hair blue studs. in reality they come from the poorest towns and from broken families. or small towns. most fo them have kids. most of them dont have an other alternative and the military offers some on the spot there. specially if you have kids at 19 you need money to raise them and provide. the military is a good option. these people are like us. and sadly they join not to fight for the imperialist dreams. but because thats what they been reduced to in this country.

[which doctor]

My brother will most likely be getting deployed to Iraq in less than about a year.

I call him a paid murderer. Yes, they are brainwashed, but we certainly can't save everyone.

[*[email protected]*]

I think a little bit of those two catagory's applies to each individual troop.



But as for the reason of the war, I believe its an attempt to install a puppet government that will AGREE with the US and sell its resources for peanuts. Also, they will proberly set up bases so they can fight Al Qaeda more directly, keep the Middle East in check and have concrete protection of its interests.



Then, atleast a Decade or two later, overdosed materialism and idealogical poisoning would have crippled the radical Islam and Muslim culture.


We'll then see Coca-Cola billboards all over the Masjid al-Haram, the speakers in mosques will thank Muhammad for 50% off stuffed crust pizzas at Domino's, and woman will be walking down the streets wearing Levi Jeans and small tight shirts with the word slut written across it with sparkled glitter!!
:ph34r:

Thats only my crazy idea though,
have fun correcting it. :lol:

[Free Left]

Isn't it ironic that the people who are abused by the system and the state are the ones who are over in the Middle East defending its interests?

[Pawn Power]

Impossible, there is almost always minimum wage work out there.

Minimum wage work does not feed or house you, so that doesn't mean shit.

[RevMARKSman]

http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.as...d=13791&forum=4 (http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.asp?thread=13791&forum=4)

These people are retarded...Responses?

[RevMARKSman]

And yes, I am being a baby and crying out for help because I'm too stupid. But forgive me. I'm 12.

as in, COME ON PEOPLE, I'VE WAITED TWO ENTIRE MINUTES, HELP ALREADY! :rolleyes:








don't shoot...I was trying to be funny...sheesh...

[EusebioScrib]

I hate to regurgitate it again but, support them when they shoot their officers.

It's the only thing we can really do. Sure they're workers, but that doesn't justify them fighting. Sure they're brainwashed, but that still doesn't justify it either. We can only support them if, and only if, they rebel.

[anomaly]

Supporting a military for a capitalist superpower? No way.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Revolution is the [email protected] 25 2006, 05:45 PM

Impossible, there is almost always minimum wage work out there.

Minimum wage work does not feed or house you, so that doesn't mean shit.
And army pay does? We are speaking of young men/women here. They don't have to feed a family, just themselves. Now for those who have families, if they choose to be in the military as a "career" then thats their own fault, fuck them.

[Delta]

The wars fought by all nations since the beginning of time have been fought by the poor and hard-working, should we support all of their actions? Of course not.

If someone is making a mistake, you try to convince them otherwise, not pat them on the back for it.

[Morpheus]

A sucessfull anti-war strategy will need to get the soldiers to disobey their officers and rebel. That's what happened in Vietnam. Demonizing the soldiers won't do that, and neither will repeating militaristic slogans like "support our troops."

[YSR]

Morpheus nails it on the head. Crying out "kill the troops!" isn't effective as it alienates the families and friends of the soldiers. And there's a lot of them. But illustrating the benefits of dissertion and the reasons to not join up are what we can do.

We neither support the troops nor hate them. We oppose what they're doing and persuade them not to go. They're pawns. Some of them know it but I think that many of them don't. When they are made aware of their position, the result is inevitable and excellent.

[FriedFrog]

Support the troops my arse.

They know what theyre getting into. Those US Marines who sing about their murderous rampages deserve nobodys respect or sympathy.


Crying out "kill the troops!" isn't effective as it alienates the families and friends of the soldiers.

We cant just change tact because it might offend some people. The reality is that soldiers are people payed to murder eachother on behalf of their almighty country.


illustrating the benefits of dissertion and the reasons to not join up are what we can do.
Quite so, but I'm pretty sure most troops know what theyre going in for: Defence (and agression) of the 'Fatherland'.

[FidelCastro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 04:45 PM
Should we support the United States military personnel as proletarians, or denounce them as murderers?

Proles

They are using this job to get into college.
They have been brainwashed into thinking they are "protecting us back here at home" instead of realizing that it was an imperialist war.
They may have been forced to join the military by their parents.
They may not support the war in Iraq.
This is the only job they could get.

Murderers

They knew full well when they joined that they might kill someone.
They could go into burger-flipping instead.
They believed the brainwashers rather than finding out for themselves.
Moral statement not everybody will agree with: It's better to live homeless than to live as a killer.



Also, dispute what exactly the Iraq war is about. Be specific in your claims and reasons.
First off, your argument lost it's credibility when you said "they knew they might kill someone" and accusing them of being murderers. Che Guevara knew when he joined Castro that he was probablly going to take a life, so under your argument, he is a murderer as he took a life. You can counter my argument by saying they were Capitalists, Enemy etc... but then that voids your first argument calling the troops murders as they are fighting in what they believe in (however, that may not nessecarily be the case in everyone) but the Iraqi insurgents are still the enemy to the American soldiers so it is their duty to eliminate the threat because if they don't, the insurgents will. Keep in mind that it isn't the American Soldiers who have been capturing diplomats, journalists, etc.. and cutting their heads off for a camera. So who is the real murderer here?

But other than that, you put forth some good points.

[SonofRage]

This is related to Morpheus's last post...

I have been active doing outreach to soldiers as a member of The Military Project (http://www.militaryproject.org/) for about a year now and in my experience there are a lot of troops who are pissed off and think the war is bullshit. A lot of them are disillusioned and are hungry for information.

We have been giving them our publications which are for and by soldiers...G.I. Special and Traveling Soldier. We believe that the troops are in a unique position to stop the war and that they have an obvious greater potential for a revolutionary dual power. Can you imagine directly democratic Soldier's Councils springing up around the U.S.?

Bring the Ruckus has also endorsed counter-military organizing for this reason.

We don't reach out to officers...they are in a different class position...but there is great potential to contribute to the development of a revolutionary working class by doing outreach to troops.

-SoR
http://www.militaryproject.org/
http://www.traveling-soldier.org/

[Floyce White]

"Our" troops? If I had any troops, I wouldn't pay rent.

[Raj Radical]

For alot of them , it is a way to get out of conditions most of you cant understand.

Its easy to say "get a minimum wage job" - minimum wage doesnt pay your bills, let alone if you have a family or immediate family member to care for. The military gives free health care for you and your family and enough money to keep you around.

They are defending imperialist corporate interests by killing yes. but its the only option in our society for some. The last thing they need is people calling them murderers, even if it is true.

Leave them alone, blame the system not the victim.

... the rich white, senators' sons who use all their daddy's money on cocaine and got a bid to the Army Academy are a different story, however :P

[rouchambeau]

I think a lot of communists forget that just because someone is working class doesn't mean that they are communistic. Rememeber that fascism was at first a working class movement.

[STI]

No, no we shouldn't "support the troops". Short reason? The more "support" they have, the higher morale will be. The higher their morale, the higher their likelihood to be successful. The lower their morale, the higher their likilihood to desert or mutiny.

Now, losing an imperialist war (or several) helps us in two ways. First, it invalidates the ideology of "our great nation"... it "turns off" the working class to that whole thing. When that happens, they'll be more willing to listen to what we have to say rather than, well, you know who.

Second, leaves the would-be-victims of imperialism free to develop at a more normal rate (ie: more quickly than they would under foreign occupation/domination). This decreases the amount of time necessary for that nation to reach a level of development at whcih proletarian revolution would be a reasonable possibility.

So yeah, fuck the troops.

[rebelworker]

Some troops are their because they are christian facists, others are their because they are poor and really have no better choice. There are tons in between.

As some have said we should criutically support the troops, and oppose the war.

Its no coincidence that Blacks, Latinos, Natives and Poor whites are way over represented in the Army and have historically been so.

We cant use over simplistic moralist arguments here, we have to look at patterns.

Revolution is not a relegion it is a science.

I wanted to be a soldier when i was growing up, just like my beloved grandfather.
for a few different reasons it didnt happen, but it very easily could have.

I have a good friend who served in Panama after the invasion, he joined to get away from a bad life, the experience there turned him into a rebel, years later he became an anarchist.

Revolutions have always been driven by rebelling soldiers.

Heres a good article written by a friend and comrade who has a sister serving in Iraq.

Blood Money: The Human Capital Equation of the US occupation of Iraq (http://nefac.net/node/1173)

Here is a good article about military dissent during the Vietnam War
Olive Drab Rebels (http://prole.info/articles/olivedrabrebels.html)

Soldiers come predominantly from our class, and they often are in constant conflict with their superiors. The brainwashing is heavy so they are often more open to right wing ideas, but when they rebel the do so with more "enthusiasm".

Just like it is wrong to condemn someone for working at McDonalds or Nike, so is it wrong to condemn someone for being in the army.

The troops will ultimately bring down the army, we should be reaching out to them not pushing them away.

[STI]

Originally posted by rebelworker

I have a good friend who served in Panama after the invasion, he joined to get away from a bad life, the experience there turned him into a rebel, years later he became an anarchist.


When things like that happen, we should, of course, welcome them (so long as they've quit the army).

As for the ones who don't or havn't become anarchists yet, fuck'em.


Revolutions have always been driven by rebelling soldiers

Soldiers don't rebel because revolutionaries provide fluffy "support" for them.


Soldiers come predominantly from our class, and they often are in constant conflict with their superiors

I wouldn't say it's "constant", but when they are in conflict with their superiors, they aren't fulfilling their role as soldiers... in which case we should support them - in both word and deed.

When they aren't in conflict, they are fulfilling their role.... which is fundamentally opposed to our goals.


Just like it is wrong to condemn someone for working at McDonalds or Nike, so is it wrong to condemn someone for being in the army.

People who work at McDonald's or Nike aren't professional killers for the ruling class, they're actually involved in productive labour.


The troops will ultimately bring down the army, we should be reaching out to them not pushing them away.

They probably will... but we should be demoralizing them to speed up the process!

[rebelworker]

We also have to look at WHY people join the army. Many are lied too, there is huge amounts of govt money spent on brainwashing working class/poor folks into joining the army.

Again, look at the govt effort that is put into keeping them beleiving the govt line.
Thesw people are special cases in this society and should be treated as such.

[STI]

We also have to look at WHY people join the army. Many are lied too, there is huge amounts of govt money spent on brainwashing working class/poor folks into joining the army.

Indeed they are, and to counter that we should do things like picket/harass recruitment tables when they're set up at our schools, actively try to convince would-be-soldiers of the total folly of the whole ordeal, and pretty much do whatever else we can think of to counter that "brainwashing".

But that doesn't mean we should expect "the brainwashed" to be the slightest bit easy on us, and thus we can't afford to be the slightest bit easy on them.

"Brainwashed" or not, a social role is a social role.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 09:29 AM


But that doesn't mean we should expect "the brainwashed" to be the slightest bit easy on us, and thus we can't afford to be the slightest bit easy on them.

"Brainwashed" or not, a social role is a social role.
Im not sure wha you mean by this.

I dont expect the Iraqis to go about trying to recruit american soldiers (although this might be somewhat effective, as was proven by the vietnamese, one big difference between a progressive peoples movement and a reactionary relegious reaction to invasion) but here at home we are not threatend by the US military. Those "brainwashed" soldiers are working class victimes of state manipulation. many of the weill literally be killed by the rich.

e should continue to treat them as members of our class, utill they turn the guns on us ( at which point debate will be a little dificult).

Even the Hungarians at the barakades of 56' relaised that many of the russian invaders where just poor working stiffs like them who were being manipulated by the soviet govt and didnt want to be there.

They talked to them in the streets whenever possible and many russians refused to fight or gave over their arms.

When we guive up the option of debate, we loose them, if we loose them revoltuion will be impossivble in North America. Period.

Just some more food for thought.

[Tekun]

If US soldiers were sent into Cuba or Nepal in order to destroy a socialist revolution, most of u that support them would be crying "to hell with the troops!"
And although Iraq is not undergoing a revolution, most insurgents are fighting to kick the imperialists out of there
As such, any person who loves freedom should not support them

The Iraq conflict resembles the colonization of India by the British, Indochina by the French, and the Phillipines by the Spanish
Therefore, if we detested such action by the Euro's back then, we cannot tolerate the US colonizing Iraq now

"U cannot seperate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless they have their freedom" - Malcolm X
That's whats going on right now in Iraq
U have US troops, with M16's and bullet proof vests, killing all those that resist their imposed puppet government
Therefore we cannot excuse or allow people (soldiers) to take it upon themselves to direct and control the lives of innocent Iraqi's whose only fault was to live under Sadaam's rule

Most soldiers might disagree with the war, and thats great
But if they disagree with the war, why the hell are they still fighting in it?
If they don't believe in fighting, what purpose or principle are they upholding when they're snuffing the lives of thousands of Iraqi's?
They could easily protest the war upon moral grounds
If they have no purpose or reason for fighting and they're still fighting, they're to a certain degree as useful as a robot a droid
They take orders and follow
As human beings we're better than this
We all have a brain that thinks and analyzes
A thief doesn't rob a bank unless he believes that he should, for personal gain
If u don't believe in a war, don't fight

We also forget that the only reason that the Vietnam conflict ended, was because the US gov saw that victory would take thousands of more US lives
In addition to the protests, the US gov saw that it could no longer triumph without the support of the troops and public
So what brought about the end of the war was the fact that around 50,000 soldiers had perished and the public was disgusted by this
Thus the Vietnam war had to be terminated

So taking a lesson from history, we should realize that the only way that the Iraq conflict will come to an end, is if the insurgents kill more and more US troops, and as a result the public condemns the war
It brought about the end of the Vietnam conflict, and its the only way that Iraq will come to an end

Although we cannot support the troops, we can certainly inform then on what they're doing (with caution of course)
Anything to dissuade or discourage what they do over in Iraq
And thus reduce the number of trigger happy automatons that kill Iraqi citizens


Someone mentioned (Fidel Castro I believe) that:


First off, your argument lost it's credibility when you said "they knew they might kill someone" and accusing them of being murderers. Che Guevara knew when he joined Castro that he was probablly going to take a life, so under your argument, he is a murderer as he took a life. You can counter my argument by saying they were Capitalists, Enemy etc... but then that voids your first argument calling the troops murders as they are fighting in what they believe in (however, that may not nessecarily be the case in everyone) but the Iraqi insurgents are still the enemy to the American soldiers so it is their duty to eliminate the threat because if they don't, the insurgents will. Keep in mind that it isn't the American Soldiers who have been capturing diplomats, journalists, etc.. and cutting their heads off for a camera. So who is the real murderer here?

First off, Che Guevara didn't kill Cuban peasants in battle, he killed Batista's hired soldiers
Virtually the entire Cuban population supported the revolution, the only ones who did not were the Cuban bourgeoisie and ruling class
Everyone else in society supported it
US troops are killing anyone that resists their rule, meaning anyone who interacts with rebels (insurgents)
Your comparison is ridiculous...

Second, I admit that insurgents are the one's killing and beheading FOREING diplomats and reporters
But what do u expect? U want Iraqi's to hug those that come and take control of their country and resources?
Foreign diplomats are just thieves in suits
They come to Iraq and control resources, the country, and the politics
Rather than allowing Iraqi's to control their own country, these thieves see the opportunity to get a cut of the share, and they fly in like vultures
Hmmm, what good have reporters done for Iraqi's?
Reporters are standing around and doing nothing while US soldiers violate the sovereingty of Iraqi's
They paint and distort the reality of what's going on in Iraq
They see the evil of US imperialism, and they shrug their shoulders
When u see someone in need u help them, u don't ignore them...
Basically they've done more to harm Iraq than to help it
So I don't blame them, they're doing what anyone in their right mind would do, harm those who harm them
What's next? U gonna excuse Bush's exploitation?
C'mon man, I think u gotta rethink that name of yours
I don't think Fidel would stand for what you're proposing
:rolleyes:

[mandedani]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 08:10 AM
No, no we shouldn't "support the troops". Short reason? The more "support" they have, the higher morale will be. The higher their morale, the higher their likelihood to be successful. The lower their morale, the higher their likilihood to desert or mutiny.

Now, losing an imperialist war (or several) helps us in two ways. First, it invalidates the ideology of "our great nation"... it "turns off" the working class to that whole thing. When that happens, they'll be more willing to listen to what we have to say rather than, well, you know who.

Second, leaves the would-be-victims of imperialism free to develop at a more normal rate (ie: more quickly than they would under foreign occupation/domination). This decreases the amount of time necessary for that nation to reach a level of development at whcih proletarian revolution would be a reasonable possibility.

So yeah, fuck the troops.
Listen man, you can't just say "Fuck the troops." They protect the hell out of us so you and me can have peace of mind here. Yea, this war isn't necessarily for the best of reasons, but unless you want to move out of the country, stop taking advantage of our troops and be thankful that people are protecting your life. If you don't stand for what our country is standing for, start yourself a revolution baby, yea! Because when it does come time that real shit goes down, you can be *****ing about the war while sitting on your couch in peace instead of *****ing about the war and getting shot in the ass.

[Tekun]

^ 2 words: Opposing Ideologies :rolleyes:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

My brother will most likely be getting deployed to Iraq in less than about a year.

I call him a paid murderer.

I like you.


Listen man, you can't just say "Fuck the troops."

Why not?


They protect the hell out of us

How do they "protect us"?


so you and me can have peace of mind here.

How so?


Yea, this war isn't necessarily for the best of reasons,

What do you believe were/are the reasons for the war in Iraq?


but unless you want to move out of the country, stop taking advantage of our troops and be thankful that people are protecting your life.

How is "our troops" protecting "my life"? Please enlighten me.


If you don't stand for what our country is standing for,

How can you stand for the interests of the bourgeoisie when you do not belong to that class?

[Ferg]

The troops are victims in the Iraq war. They bascially gave the government to send them to die, but all they asked was not to do it unless it was completely nessescary. But they got screwed on that one.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The troops are victims in the Iraq war.

Did they not volunteer?

Is it not the Iraqi people, who did not volunteer to be victims, to be slaughtered?


but all they asked was not to do it unless it was completely nessescary.

http://www.orlyowl.com/orly.jpg



But they got screwed on that one.

Was it the Iraqi people who got, and still get screwed, or was/is it the U.S. imperialist soldiers?

Why do you feel so sorry for the U.S. soldiers?

[Ferg]

A soldiers job is to follow orders plain and simple and without question. I know it sounds opressive, but that's the only way it works or else the military would be useless. Their orders is to kill those who mean to kill them in Iraq, and that's what they're doing. They didn't ask to go there, they don't want to be there, but they are. It's not their fault. It's President Bush's.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Listen man, you can't just say "Fuck the troops."

Fuck the troops, until they start fragging that is.


They protect the hell out of us so you and me can have peace of mind here.

Wars of agression sure do protect us from that enemy out there, somewhere, supposedly. :rolleyes:


Yea, this war isn't necessarily for the best of reasons, but unless you want to move out of the country, stop taking advantage of our troops and be thankful that people are protecting your life.

Imperialists soldiers aren't protecting shit accept capitalist gains you moron. There is no fucking enemy out there except the bourgeoisie. The only reason we have people in middle eastern countries wanting to kill us is because of the bourgeoisie and their imperialist interests. Poor peasants and workers in the middle east ARE NOT MY ENEMY.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

A soldiers job is to follow orders plain and simple and without question.

Yes, so?


Their orders is to kill those who mean to kill them in Iraq, and that's what they're doing.

Yes, so?


They didn't ask to go there, they don't want to be there,

How do you know they don't want to be there? I've seen interviews with dozens of them and a lot of them want to be there. Either for the sake of killing sandniggers, or because they want to "do something great for the country".


It's not their fault.

They joined!


It's President Bush's.


Bush is only one man.

You really think this war was started because of one man? You really do not think it has to do with something else? You think this war started just because Bush "wanted to"?

You know there are some who have interests in Iraq. Businessmen, for instance.



PS: You should keep in mind though, that no matter who "started" the war, the soldiers/mercenaries/contractors always joined. And they are those who always do the fighting. Without them, there would be no war.

[mandedani]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 11:34 AM
How do they "protect us"?


so you and me can have peace of mind here.

How so?


Yea, this war isn't necessarily for the best of reasons,

What do you believe were/are the reasons for the war in Iraq?


but unless you want to move out of the country, stop taking advantage of our troops and be thankful that people are protecting your life.

How is "our troops" protecting "my life"? Please enlighten me.


If you don't stand for what our country is standing for,

How can you stand for the interests of the bourgeoisie when you do not belong to that class?
So basically - if your living a happy American life, you cannot complain about people protecting your country. However, the is a revolution site, right? Hell no I don't agree with the war in Iraq, but just complaining and being mad at our gov't for being imperialistic isn't gonna get anything done. Me and you, right now, lets get naked and start the fuckin revolution.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

So basically - if your living a happy American life, you cannot complain about people protecting your country.

Iraq was not a threat to the U.S. Agree or disagree?


Hell no I don't agree with the war in Iraq, but just complaining and being mad at our gov't for being imperialistic isn't gonna get anything done.

I do not think very many people have blamed "the gov't" itself. I cannot speak for others, but I do blame the system. Not Bush or Cheney in particular. But the system. And yes, those who have participated in the war (soldiers, officers) and representing the capitalist class's interests, have naturally collaborated with the interests of the capitalist class. (It's kind of obvious)

And collaborators are guilty.


Ferg, would you be sad, if a UH-60 Black Hawk loaded with U.S. soldiers would crash, and all those inside would die?

Would you cry if insurgents launch a massive attack at a U.S. base in Iraq and kill hundreds of U.S. soldiers?

Theoretically, would you sacrifice your life, if it was between your life and the, how many is it, 130,000 U.S. soldier's stationed in Iraq? Would you sacrifice your life for all those good ol' boys fighting for their country?

I am not after you... Just curiuos on how much you care about them.

[Tekun]

How nice, a Che admirer who supports the troops....

Maybe u didn't read this quote by Che


Our every action is a battle cry against imperialism, and a battle hymn for the people's unity against the great enemy of mankind: the United States of America. Wherever death may surprise us, let it be welcome, provided that this, our battle cry, may have reached some receptive ear, that another hand may be extended to wield our weapons, and that other men be ready to intone our funeral dirge with the staccato singing of the machine guns and new battle cries of war and victory. - Ernesto Che Guevara

I think he's referring to both the imperialistic troops and their government




A soldiers job is to follow orders plain and simple and without question. I know it sounds opressive, but that's the only way it works or else the military would be useless. Their orders is to kill those who mean to kill them in Iraq, and that's what they're doing. They didn't ask to go there, they don't want to be there, but they are. It's not their fault. It's President Bush's.

A soldier is a human, first and foremost
They are not robots or automatons, they have a conscious
As such, if they are ordered to kill a young child, don't they have the morality to refuse?
They do, if they didn't, they wouldn't be humans
If they were ordered to drop bombs on innocent civilians, would u be protecting them? Because that's exactly what they're doing right now over in Iraq
And "radicals" like u seem to ignore the fact that the real victims are getting killed every single day, that is the Iraqi civilians who resist or fight for their sovereingty

A military should protect its country, not invade the country of others, and kill all those that resist their rule
As such, those that indirectly and directly invade and conquer a foreign nation deserve the same end...they deserve to be killed by those who are being unjustly conquered


Killing those that kill them?
Last time I checked, Iraqi insurgents weren't in the US killing US nationals
They were in Iraq fighting to resist colonization
So unless the insurgents are in the US killing ppl
Your precious US soldiers have no business in Iraq
What would u do if Russia invaded the US, pillaged your country, and were imposing a puppet government?
Would u sit around and take it in? Or would u resist and fight their invaders?
My guess is the latter, which is exactly what the Iraqi's are doing

President Bush doesn't pull the trigger on Iraqi civilians, he might order them or supply them, but he doesn't pull the trigger
Troops do
As such they're both guilty of the same

[rebelworker]

As I said earlier, most(but not all) soldiers in the US army are working class victimes of state and capitalist manipulation.

We are raised from day one to identify with the capitalst state, the army is constantly uncritically glorified in hollywood movies, and we are miseducated about the history of conflicts and the reasons for the wars we fight.

On tp of that, recruiting agents heavily target poor communities with promises of a better life. Army recruiters regualrly lie to targeted youth, and many "volunteer" at a very young age. many more join the army as a way to get away from gangs in their community(this is far more widespread than many would imagine).

Its not a question of uncritical support of the actions of the troops, its a systematic look at who ends up being a soldier and why.

[Janus]

As I said earlier, most(but not all) soldiers in the US army are working class victimes of state and capitalist manipulation.
I agree. When it comes down to it, we should try to get the individuals onto our side though that may be hard with all the propaganda that they are bombarded with.


On tp of that, recruiting agents heavily target poor communities with promises of a better life.
Yeah, seen it myself.


many more join the army as a way to get away from gangs in their community(this is far more widespread than many would imagine).
Sometimes, that's the only alternative besides jail.

[bayano]

i do a lot of counter-recruitment and anti-war organizing, and i know all of the comments that we get. my favorites are usually the ones which mis-judge us and i can hit back with a comment that smashes the preconeived notions in the right wingers heads. for example, we very often get some comment that essentially says you've never been to war, often in a rhetorical question like have any of you ever served in a war. now, aside from the obvious lack of depth of such a question, and frankly the merits of it as an argument to discredit anti-war activists (both pacifists and non-pacifists alike) can be debated elsewhere. but the fact is, i was in a war. long before offered to go on one of those political trips to palestine or the philippines as a young adult, i spent three weeks in panama during the usa invasion and occupation, visiting my family down there for the first time. my mention of that drops a right winger dead in their tracks, tho sometimes i bait them to say something thatll piss me off.

i say this bcuz it is important to understand, United States soldiers have killed members of my family. graduates of the soa have tortured members of my family. so, i have a taste of the resentment, the bitterness of directly relating to the victims of US imperialism, bcuz i am one. as a resident of the usa, i am also something of a beneficiary of it, but that is a different topic. whats more relevant is that i am not only someone who politically and ideologically opposes the United States of America, capitalism, imperialism, etc etc., but people of close blood relation have been its cruelly slaughtered victims.

i hate the US military with all my heart. but i dont hate any people, i hate systems and ideologies and concepts and some non-living things (nuclear weapons and racist posters, for example). i cannot support the troops. i have friends who have or are serving in the military, including those who have been to iraq, and i love and respect the friends as people, but i do not respect nor love nor support no one as soldiers of the united states military. does that distinction make sense to people? to say i hate cops means i hate the system of law enforcement for a bourgeois state, and i hate the uniformed goons who attack the poor, but out of uniform i do not hate them as human beings.

i think we need to really think about these things. i also think we need to be practical about it, really think about what our views mean for our practical world. im all about relating to people where theyre at. there are some soldiers i will discuss CO or desertion with, i support the creation of soldier cafes near bases, and veterans hotlines. on the other hand, ive fought or spat at soldiers who boasted of their pleasure at the killing of children or fighting for imperialism.

the military trains them to: be obedient, collectivist-mentality thugs (i dont say this as an anti-collectivist, but not all collectivism is good). and training is specifically meant to dehumanize them, which makes them less fearful of mortality, and more able to kill and torture. so i dont support them as soldiers, but i support projects to re-humanize them in or out of their uniforms