how about a revolution in the US?

[rAW DEaL bILL]

im wondering why there hasnt been a socialist revolution here yet. there seems to be enough socialists her i mean i could be wrong but it looks like there enough of us to try right? i think we should get moving. i mean cmon this is just shit this whole system just needs to fucking die. why the fuck hasnt there been a revolution here yet?!?!?!?!

[Organic Revolution]

yes but u also have to factor in a lose right winged capitalists that own guns... were out numbered still. if it were a united front i would say yes but as it is i say no

[rAW DEaL bILL]

true but theres also the millions of americans who frankly dont give a shit. theyre to busy stuffing there faces and shit to even know ANYthing and POSIBLY probobly not they could be converted to the left wing and fuck over the cappies entirely

[Organic Revolution]

true but i have seen some very pissy rightwingers. it might work... i dont have a gun though

[redstar2000]

A couple of points.

Real revolutions are not made by a small group of dedicated people, except under extraordinarily unusual circumstances. Revolutions actually involve huge numbers of active participants; a communist revolution in the United States would probably require not less than ten million active communists and perhaps another 50 million sympathizers and supporters.

There are about 4,500 members of Che-Lives; do the math.

The other point, of course, is that revolution in the U.S. is simply a fantasy as long as our imperialist wars are successful. Americans are just like any other people...willing to back a winner as long as it keeps winning. When U.S. imperialism runs into a series of catastrophic defeats, when the American working class begins to suffer severe casualties...then talk of revolution will find willing ears. Not before.

Want an estimate? How does 2100 sound?

Does that dampen your enthusiasm? Don't forget there are other countries where things may become quite interesting much sooner.

:cool:

[bemalech]

We are looking at this all wrong, maybe there is another way to get a new government. Why do a lot of revolutions happen, economy. Don't listen to Bush,(not that we ever do) do what ever you can to destroy the economy. What we need is another depression, that way the entire will be poor and looking for a solution. And what is it that has saved many dead economy's...communision.

[Nick Yves]

I agree with redstar, once again (who doesnt?).

Revolution in another country, one more ripe for it, is the best way to go. Then just build up from there.

And how could we 'destroy' the economy?

[jjack]

I've started another thread on a movement for Alaskan independence. That movement has been going on essentially since Alaska has become a state. That is the way I think we should go here. Anymore I feel as though I am an Alaskan more than I am an American.

As for destroying the economy, you have to look at it the other way. The economy is already destroyed. Percentage wise, this is the worst economic deflation in US history -- worse than the depression. We sugarcoat it by using misleading statistics like averages and "unemployment," but more than ever free enterprise is failing us.

If we want a revolution here, we have to capitalize on that. As a "Socialist Alaskan Seperatist" I realise that 1) We need socialism to pull our economy out of the gutter, and 2) There is no way for socialism to work under the current system, the only way is revolution. The federales will never let us devise a system where we take our destinies into our own hands, at least not without giving us a fight.

I'm sure that Alaska is a microcosm for the rest of the US. Everywhere state economies are going under, just like they are here, and that means budget cuts and privatization, massive unemployment, under-employment and people "leaving the workforce". If you're looking for a point to drive socialism into the heart of American politics, our current economic hell-hole is exactly what you've been looking for. For people who don't sit around and chat about this political mumbo-jumbo on internet message boards like us, it gives them something concrete to grasp and put things in perspective when they probably just haven't thought too much about it in the past.

(Edited by jjack at 6:41 am on May 11, 2003)

[CubanFox]

Quote: from jetgrind on 5:28 am on May 11, 2003

And how could we 'destroy' the economy?


It depends. Lets say we were to overthrow the wicked, horrible, CIA backed dictator of St Vincent & The Grenadies (there's not really a dictator, this is just a hypothesis)
According to the CIA World Factbook 2002, St Kitts & The Grenadies' economy is based on bananas, tennis racquets (seriously) and arrowroot. One would trash the economy by burning the banana trees and arrowroot plants, and blowing tennis racquet factories up. Simple.

Hey, redstar, let's go overthrown the government in Kingstown, St Vincent! It's tropical...and they have copious amounts of my fav fruit...bananas. That is, until we're finished with them ;)

(Edited by CubanFox at 7:55 am on May 11, 2003)

[Fabetz]

Nunca haverá uma tentativa de socialismo nos EUA...
A sociedade americana surgir com base no individualismo, forçando a organizaçao politica a formar uma ditadura da maioria....
Basta ler um pouco de Tocqueville pessoal... ele explicou tudo certinho...
Lá no século XVIII...

[American Kid]

As bad as the economy is, according to Marxist ideaology, it needs to get much worse in order for the necessary discrepency between the economic situation of the haves and the have-nots (boursegie and proletariat) to instigate a proper "uprising".

Marxism is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy in a way, in that it predicts socialism will emerge as the end result of imperialism/capitalism's inherent oppresion of the working classes. The problem, in and of itself, eventually devours itself, becoming the solution.

What Marx didn't predict was the rise of the Middle class. And that changes everything.

I guess now what has to happen is the bourgesie need to become so insatiably greedy that even the petit bourgesie become the condiments for their main course, in effect, becoming proletariat themselves.

That may not happen for a loooooooooong time.

If ever.
-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 8:28 am on May 12, 2003)

[The Muckraker]

As bad as the economy is, according to Marxist ideaology, it needs to get much worse in order for the necessary discrepency between the economic situation of the haves and the have-nots (boursegie and proletariat) to instigate a proper "uprising".

I'm not at all sure that I agree with that, though many on the Left seem to feel that way.

See, if that were true, then wouldn't it be very odd indeed for someone like me to agree with Marx, or someone like darn near any Leftist here? That kind of thinking deems us "special" somehow, able to see what others can not, and I just don't agree with that.

The it-has-to-get-worse argument is predicated on the belief that self-interest is the only motivating factor in human behavior and leads one to the kind of methodological individualism (this was just being talked about in another thread, but I can't remember which one) that Marx rejected.

In short, the argument seems to use an anti-Marxist sentiment in order to correct Marx. I'm not sure that's a valid approach.

[jjack]

Even if self-interest were the only motivational factor, I think the middle class would eventually be drawn to marxism anyway. I consider the middle class to have elements of both the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. While we in the middle class have many things that the blue-collar/no-collar proletariat don't, we by no means have everything we should be entitled to. Therefore, we still have much to gain through Marxism. With this in mind, self-interest can still be a motivating factor, it's just harder for the reality of the matter to penetrate through our false consciousness, because we're a lot closer to the bourgeoisie.

[Donut Master]

I agree with Redstar, it may be a very long time before the US government is transformed into socialist. We may very well descend into total fascism before the people finally wake up and begin a mass uprising.

One thing is for sure, the worse the conditions get, the closer we get to revolution. Unfortunately, the capitalist class has figured this out. That is why the most abused workers of American corporations are from other countries - we have little Asian kids making our sneakers. In this way, the capitalists attempt to "hide" the most disgusting aspects of the system. The capitalists get their cheap labor from other countries, and the middle-class "cousion" at home remains large enough so that we continue to believe that a free market economy is one of "opportunity for everyone". Of course, the capitalists don't play this trick perfectly, and there is a large number of Americans who do work absolute shit jobs for shit pay. The number of Americans who take a 2 hour bus ride to work, to work two jobs a day, and make barely enough to feed themselves, is growing every day. When that number grows large enough, class conciousness naturally starts to evolve. Thus it will be the poorest of Americans that rebels first.

[notyetacommie]

Hi, guys! Should I try to emigrate to the US to help you clean the mess?

[Luna]

It will take time and problably disasters to take away the illusion of the american dream. I think that people in usa are still too much patriotic for their nation. Everything is done in the name of liberty. Americans are too capitalism to give up the illusion of security money brings. And they are so proud to be the richest nation in the world. Money brings power and that's what america is all about.

[TXsocialist]

The US is the Center of the Capitalist Empire, and thus will only become socialist by the united action of the global, class-concious, proletariat, in conjunction with the american communists, of course.

[WUOrevolt]

I live in the U.S. and if there was a socialist revolution in the U.S. I would join it the first chance I got. There needs to be a socialist democratic revolution in america. We need to get rid of all of the MCcathyist prejudices that me and my fellow commies face today. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that MCcarthyist prejudices are the biggest and most widespread ones in america. With an american socialist revolution true equality would be reached in america.

[ChiTown Lady]

I think what I am ultimately saying here agrees with what American Kid said – in a way, but from a little bit different perspective. Things need to get much worse before people realize it is not working for them personally any more and that is when it will all bust at break loose. It may have to reach rock bottom – so to speak, before it can get better here. There is way too much mind-numbing brainwashing in effect at the moment – too many people in this place are buying the bullshit handed to them by the media, and have not the ability to even think for themselves.

I typed that first paragraph last – the rest kind of back that summation up in one way or another.

Rise Up is right with what he said. It is insane the number of people here who are so way too preoccupied with money to even consider a Socialist Revolution. And I’m not only talking about the Right wing Conservatives, but also the Limousine Liberals as well. There are an awful lot of fake-ass so-called Liberals out there who would stab you in the back in a heartbeat if it meant they could make a buck in doing so – and I know you all know it’s true.

rAW DEal bill also has a very good point. But it goes even further than that from what I can see. This place reminds me of all that I have read and heard about how Old Rome was - Bread and Circuses. Very few people even give a shit about the issues or what is going on in the world or even about the legislation being passed in this country that will inevitably create a totalitarian Fascist State here in the end. Too many people here are only thinking about what they are going to do next to entertain themselves – sporting events, inane TV programming designed to keep peoples minds numb to reality, etc. etc. Bread and Circuses – it’s all about entertainment and the next luxury item or designer this or that they can buy. It is absolutely sickening to see these people in action – for real.

But as far as that all goes – Rome fell because people became too complacent and consumed by they’re own self-justifying quest for entertainment and pleasure at anyone and everyone’s expense. This is what is happening here too. In Rome they were throwing Christians to the lions and this was entertainment. Entertainment here has also become that bloodthirsty. The whole massacre against the Iraqi people was turned into a sporting event here on our national television, and this is how many people here viewed it too. It was truly sick – no lie. This place will probably fall soon enough, and it may be a very bloody fall when it happens. Way too many people are being victimized even here for the sake of the Corporate Bottom Line profits. People can only take so much of this before the bottom falls out and the masses become enraged. Of course by that point many may not even have a very good grasp of what exactly it is they are enraged about – but when enough find themselves jobless and/or homeless at the hands of the multibillion-dollar conglomerates bottom line profit margins – something’s gonna give eventually - I think it will happen sooner rather than later.

jjack – good luck on the Alaskan secession from the union. Puerto Rico has been trying to free itself from this country for quite some time now too, and they are not even a state. It seem as though when the US gets it’s claws into a place it will NOT let it go unless there is much blood shed, as in the case of Cuba. And Cuba wasn’t even technically a colonial territory like Puerto Rico is; yet the US had its grip there by consuming all of Cuba’s natural resources at a corporate level. This is what is happening in too many places globally. Supposedly sovereign countries have become wholly owned and controlled by the US corporations in this realm. There isn’t even a need to technically make places actual states to totally control their lands any more. This needs to stop too. The whole globe needs to rise up against the US in my eyes. I do wish Alaska all the luck in the world in this quest to free itself from the US. I’m with you 100% there. Vive Puerto Rico tambien!!! And every other place on the map that has fallen victim to Capitalist Corporate Greed.

I am definitely down with the plan of revolution! In fact, in a lot of respects I have already started The Revolution in my own way, by speaking the true about what is going on to everyone and anyone who is in my path – whether they want to hear it or not. And believe it or not, many that previously did not want to hear it are listening in the end. The key is to educate the masses – this is how to start. Tell EVERYONE the truth about the issues, at school, at work, in your neighborhoods – get the message out – this is how to start. And possibly, when enough people have had enough of the bullshit, and when enough people can actually see it for what it is – we may actually have a Real Revolution in the making.

Hail the Revolution!!!


(Edited by ChiTown Lady at 12:22 am on May 14, 2003)

[notyetacommie]

How about encouraging people in other countries to stop using the $? It will make the US face the international debt at once. And the empire will fall! And all the people in the world would be free to choose the way they would be developing.

[ChiTown Lady]

The idea of forcing other countries not to use the dollar would be somewhat difficult – in many cases, but of course not in ALL cases. However the US banking laws have locked many into using the dollar by laws that literally hold money hostage in that realm.

I imagine that many could free themselves from the dollar if they were never actually tied to it from birth as I was. I am personally fucked by virtue of where I was born and raised I fear.

It is all very complicated, but it is true. I have fallen victim to this situation on a personal level by virtue of where I happen to have been born and raised. I am currently in the process of moving to Costa Rica and even my early-retirement payments from the place I have worked for the past 24 years (small as they happen to be) are not allowed to be directly deposited to my Costa Rican bank account by US banking laws. I must keep a US bank account and can only get to my money by way of using a debit card from that US bank. It is extremely maddening at best, but this is what is happening to hold people hostage to this place no matter what they try to do to get the Hell out of here.

The US banks are like a bunch of fucking Vampire out to suck every bit of a person’s lifeblood from them. This is what I see.

I hate this country and all that it stands for. If in the end I loose EVERYTHING that I have worked my whole life to realize to bring it down – so be it. I’m there with the plan to bring the US down all the way - no matter what my personal consequences will be in the end.

Hail the Revolution!


(Edited by ChiTown Lady at 1:56 am on May 14, 2003)

[notyetacommie]

How about taking your money in cash? Can't you do it? Can't you get hold of your own pension?

[ChiTown Lady]

No, unfortunately not – the cash value they would give me if I were to opt for that option would be like 50% of my current annual income period in a lump sum – which would be like $35k lump sum, not enough to live on for life particularly since I have worked 24 fucking years in this place to realize an actual real early-retirement pension. Right? This would not even come close to supporting me in my retirement for the rest of my life – I am not elderly – I am 44-years old. The monthly early-retirement amount is like $700 a month, which of course is not all that much but will sustain me for life monthly as a rule for my purposes - to be a stay at home mom for the sake of my 10-year old daughter aand to living in peace outside of this country's insanity. Actually I am doing this not only to get me out of here but to get my 10-year old daughter to a place that is more real and better than where we are currently.

But you do the math.

$35,000 lump sum / $700 per month = 50 months (that is 4.16 years)

Does that really make any sense at my age from your perspective? I am 44-years old right now.

The whole lump sum idea is a rip off for me.

I will however be on the market for finding a Costa Rican husband so Costa Rica cannot throw me out in the event that the US cuts me off due to the whole country going under. And after five years of residency I will qualify to get a job there (Costa Rican law says I have to be a five year resident or be married to a Costa Rican to work there) – but either way I will NOT return to this country no matter what. One way or another – no matter what – I will NOT return to this place – EVER.

NEVER!!!

[WUOrevolt]

Peacul socialist revolution now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[marleydad]

go for it!!!

[Organic Revolution]

there is no such this as a peacful revolution.

[WUOrevolt]

Just a second. I have a question for Marleydad. What do you mean. Peaceful democratic socialist revolution now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WUOrevolt]

lets get together to bringe change now

[Organic Revolution]

do u think they'll treat us like human if we try and do it peacfully.. no they will kill us the first chance they get.