Need figures urgently - More problems with my friends.

[mentalbunny]

I was discussing communism again with my friend and the problem is I have no figures or facts to fight with, it all ends up on abstract terms and I don't think she has things inperspective, so if someone could give me some facts and figures with sources I'd be really grateful. I go on abuot raising awareness and she says that people won't agree even if they know, and stuff like that. I'm like, do you know how many out there are being oppressed by capitalism and imperialism, but the problem is I don't either, although I reckon I have a better idea that shee does, she sees the whole world as being middle class I think!

She says that communism is unstable, she talks about it failing in the past. She says it needs the whole world to stand up to get it moving. And so therefore we shouldn't bother, basically. She fucks me off.

[Reuben]

facts and figures. Im the guy to ask - typical commie anorak

Figures first

the gdp (overall wealth) of the ukraine in 2000 was just 1/3rd of what it had been in 1989 (2 years prior to the fall of communism) demonstrating the disastrous effect of capitalism
in cuba, with incredibl limited funds, and in spite of a blockade cuba has been able to raise the liife expectancy to 75 years, something uncharacteristic of a third world country. It achieved a life expectancy of over seventy long before capitalist counterparts in the region.

Cuba also has a lower infant mortaliy ate than the state of washington DC, somehting amaziing given the gap in wealth.

There ialso a 97% literay rate in cuba.

[Jesus Christ]

Capitalist; 1. an investor of capital in business; especially, one having a major interest in an important enterprise. 2. any person of great wealth.

What they don't say is that the capitalist owns and controls the banks, the factories, the fields and the markets. They control the politicians, the T.V., the radio and press. They use the cops to protect their private property. They use the army to protect their operations around the world. Remember the war for oil in the middle east and that joke excuse they used to start it?

Capitalist society has given the rest of us the freedom to choose between work or starvation. Working people, we who work for a living, we who can't live off the labor of others, must go to work for the bosses if they we are to live. We don't own the factories or the stores or the fields or the offices, so we have to sell our time to the capitalists. They buy our time to work for them and then they own the product of our labor. They pay us as little as they can get away with, but all the value we create on the job becomes the property of the capitalist. That is where his profit comes from.

Work with that for now.

[Reuben]

these woiuld suggest that while there have been problems with the political system the economic system has been able to guarantee basic needs being met in a way unmatchd by SIMILAR capitalist countries

FACTS.
There have beeen a number of attempts at very democratic rtransitions owards socialism/communism almost all of which have been coersively crushed by America.

In chile a marxist govenrment was elected and begean to reform chile. America out oin all the pressure (economic and otherise) that is could yet in spite of this Allende was reelected. When it fell it was not due to the failings of communism but due to the fact that the US security services overtly sponsored a coup by the military to oust the regime.

Similarly America invaded guatemala in 1954 to oust the democratically elected socialistic government and trianed rebels to fight against the democaratic communistic govenrment of the sandanistaas in the 1980s

[mentalbunny]

Thanks so much, guys, keep 'em coming!

[Reuben]

I believe she misses the point. Of course there have been problems with communism and there are reasons to hesitate.

[b]Yet it is far harder to justify one's inaction agains a system which distributes such vast wealt so irresponsbly that within a world dominted b capitalist economics thousands of children starve every day while in other parts of the world such britian and america decadance knows no bounds.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

DUDE!! LEARN FOR YOURSELF!

IT'S THE EASIEST WAY.

[redstarshining]

Does she understand what communism is?
Does she understand the difference between capitalism, scientific socialism and communism?
Does she know the difference between market economy and planned economy?

Or did she already ask you standard question #1: If all people get equal pay, nobody will want to work anymore. There is no incentive for anybody to work, so why can't you see that communism is always bound to fail?

If she did ask that question, or if she believes in any of the other commen misconceptions about marxism ( such as that communism = stalin, or that people are not "free" in a communist society ), then it's a clear sign that she has no clue about marxism. If she doesn't understand marxist theory then there is no point in presenting her any 'real world facts&figures'. In this case it would be good if you could teach her a little bit of theory first. In a friendly and non-arrogant way of course :)

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 5:15 pm on May 10, 2003
I was discussing communism again with my friend and the problem is I have no figures or facts to fight with, it all ends up on abstract terms and I don't think she has things inperspective, so if someone could give me some facts and figures with sources I'd be really grateful. I go on abuot raising awareness and she says that people won't agree even if they know, and stuff like that. I'm like, do you know how many out there are being oppressed by capitalism and imperialism, but the problem is I don't either, although I reckon I have a better idea that shee does, she sees the whole world as being middle class I think!

She says that communism is unstable, she talks about it failing in the past. She says it needs the whole world to stand up to get it moving. And so therefore we shouldn't bother, basically. She fucks me off.


Here are some facts. I am sure that if you persevere with your friend you will be able to pursuade them some way.


-The richest fifth of the world's people consumes 86 percent of all goods and services (e.g. 45 percent of all meat and fish, 58 percent of all energy, 84 percent of all paper, and 74 percent of all telephones).
The poorest fifth consumes just 1.3 percent of all goods and services.
Of the 4.4 billion people in developing countries, nearly three-fifths lack access to safe sewers, a third have no access to clean water, a quarter do not have adequate housing and a fifth have no access to modern health services of any kind.

-The average African household today consumes 20 percent less than it did 25 years ago.

-The three richest people in the world have assets that exceed the combined gross domestic product of the 48 least developed countries.

-The world's 225 richest individuals, of whom 60 are Americans with total assets of $311 billion, have a combined wealth of over $1 trillion—equal to the annual income of the poorest 47 percent of the entire world's population.

-It is estimated that the additional cost of achieving and maintaining universal access to basic education for all, basic health care for all, reproductive health care for women, adequate food for all and clean water and safe sewers for all is roughly $40 billion a year—or less than 4 percent of the combined wealth of the 225 richest people in the world.

-Two-thirds of India's 90 million lowest-income households live below the poverty line—but more than 50 percent of these impoverished people own wristwatches, 41 percent own bicycles, 31 percent own radios and 13 percent own fans.

-Europeans spend $11 billion a year on ice cream—$2 billion more than the estimated annual total needed to provide clean water and safe sewers for the world's population.

-Americans spend $8 billion a year on cosmetics—$2 billion more than the estimated annual total needed to provide basic education for everyone in the world.

-Americans each consume an average of 260 pounds of meat a year. In Bangladesh, the average is six and a half pounds.

-Americans and Europeans spend $17 billion a year on pet food—$4 billion more than the estimated additional total needed to provide basic health and nutrition for everyone in the world.

-At the end of 1997 over 30 million people were living with HIV. With about 16,000 new infections a day—90 percent in developing countries—it is now estimated that more than 40 million people will be living with HIV in 2000.

-By 2050 8 billion of the world's projected 9.5 billion people, up from about 6 billion today, will be living in developing countries.

-Since 1970, the world's forests have declined from 4.4 square miles per 1,000 people to 2.8 square miles per 1,000
people. In addition, a quarter of the world's fish stocks have been depleted or are in danger of being depleted and another 44 percent are being fished at their biological limit.

-The Ganges River symbolizes purification to Hindus, who believe drinking or bathing in its waters will lead to salvation. But 29 cities, 70 towns and countless villages deposit about 345 million gallons of raw sewage a day directly into the river. Factories add 70 million gallons of industrial waste and farmers are responsible for another 6 million tons of chemical fertilizer and 9,000 tons of pesticides.

-The 85 richest people have assets which exceed the GDP of China with 1.2 billion people.



'commen misconceptions about marxism ( such as that communism = stalin' redstarshining

Aiding the bourgeois in spreading the fabrications of history they create on all communist movements and leaders will not aid the socialist movement.

[redstarshining]

Quote from Chairman Mao:

"'commen misconceptions about marxism ( such as that communism = stalin' redstarshining

Aiding the bourgeois in spreading the fabrications of history they create on all communist movements and leaders will not aid the socialist movement."

Why do you think that my intention was to aid the bourgeois in spreading such things?


All I was trying to say was that history doesn't necessarily have to repeat itself.

As for Stalin, you can imagine that I don't have a high opinion of someone who cooperated with the fascists in Germany ( even if only for a short time ) and purged his own party in a horrible way. But maybe I have just been reading the wrong books. In that case, I would be glad if you could point me to sources that portray Stalin in a more positive way, so I can get to know both sides ( no sarcasm ).

[Saint-Just]

'As for Stalin, you can imagine that I don't have a high opinion of someone who cooperated with the fascists in Germany ( even if only for a short time ) and purged his own party in a horrible way. But maybe I have just been reading the wrong books. In that case, I would be glad if you could point me to sources that portray Stalin in a more positive way, so I can get to know both sides ( no sarcasm ).'

This has been argued so many times. Its not really worth arguing even more. On Che-Lives there are many topics that deal with this, you can see all you need from them. And here: http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 9:36 pm on May 10, 2003)

[redstar2000]

It's kind of interesting to see the different approaches people suggest. Here's mine.

Why is she willing to talk to you about communism at all? Is it just, pardon the expression, chit-chat? A way to pass the time when there's no good movies nearby, nothing interesting on the dummyvision, no interesting guys want to hang out with her at the moment?

Is she just putting up with the topic because she likes you and you are interested in it?

The illusion that "the whole world is middle-class" (that is, the whole world is just as well off as I am or better) is one that is widely cultivated by the media...and very reassuring to people who in fact, know better.

Instead of attempting to make her feel upset over the way people live in the "developing countries" (an awful phrase, by the way: many of them are not only not developing but rather sinking deeper into misery), I would try to find out or figure out what her actual discontents with the world around her are...and build on that.

It's certainly possible that she doesn't have any. But I think most people do...and they interpret those discontents as individual failings on their part instead of perceiving the underlying social causes involved.

I don't think many arguments outside of professional journals are "won" by who can sling the best numbers...it's all too easy to find an "estimate" that will "support" any point of view; generating such "estimates" is a hot investment in the academic world these days.

I'm aware that it is possible to "guilt-trip" someone into being sympathetic to communism; capitalism generates an abundance of human suffering, and if you can portray this in a sufficiently vivid way, most people will sympathize

But "having the winning numbers" or "feeling sorry for people" are not very good ways, in my view, of winning people to a communist perspective.

What's really called for is the awakening of the human brain's potential to see things as they really are. The strength of the ideas of Marx and Engels is that they furnish the tools to do that...to penetrate the spectacles, the smoke and mirrors, the lies and superstitions and rhetoric, the falsification of both history and political economy.

It is easy enough to teach someone the genuine facts of a particular situation; that the American aggression against Iraq was about greed for oil (among other things) is well understood by people who never heard of Karl Marx. What is much more difficult is to teach people how to look at any war and see what is really going on...and even how to make a pretty informed guess before the facts emerge.

Most people on this board understand that there is such a thing as U.S. imperialism and assume even before the facts emerge that the U.S. is "up to no good" no matter who it attacks. That's a Marxist assumption. When you make it, you already have a pretty good idea of where to look for the details and what shape those details are most likely to take.

You see U.S. imperialism as it really is.

When people really "become" communists, it is not a "conversion experience"...it is a way of looking at all social phenomena in a new way, a way that shows what is really happening in the world.

It's not an "easy" thing to learn; people begin with a head full of capitalist and even pre-capitalist ideas, which attempt to limit communist understanding to just a few really outrageous injustices. Yes, question this. Yes, criticize that. But not........! And certainly not........!! And absolutely never question..........!!!

Our enemies scream that we communists "hold nothing sacred." They're right.

:cool:

[bemalech]

For everyone else reading this, No! i'm not a stalinist.

In response to your querry:

While all the major super powers of the 1920's and 1930's were floundering around in the great depression, the USSR had a flourishing economy (compared to before the revolution) and had a higher employment rate than USA, UK and Germany.

At the beginning of the 20th century, China was a third world country with a dead economy. Now they are a nuclear super power with a healthy economy and the largest population in the world.

See what she has to say about that

[mentalbunny]

Well thanks guys but I'm a bit confused about the whole thing, what exactly do I say? I end up tying myself in knots.

She does know that life isn't great for people, I don't know which bits she finds worse, I think she's too concerned with exams right now anyway. She wants to be a doctor, but I don't really know what she thinks about the NHS. She doesn't like the idea of a trust fubnd for every kid cos she thinks it's a waste of money and it should be spent on schools or health, I don't know where I stand on that one.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 2:23 pm on May 11, 2003
Well thanks guys but I'm a bit confused about the whole thing, what exactly do I say? I end up tying myself in knots.

She does know that life isn't great for people, I don't know which bits she finds worse, I think she's too concerned with exams right now anyway. She wants to be a doctor, but I don't really know what she thinks about the NHS. She doesn't like the idea of a trust fubnd for every kid cos she thinks it's a waste of money and it should be spent on schools or health, I don't know where I stand on that one.

Children wouldn't need a trust fund if they got parents, a home, a school, healthcare and a job when they become an adult.

The government is saying; we'll not give you shit anymore, we'll give you a bit and you can make it on your own way.

The solution is forced labour in coal mines for the individuals who devised the plan and starvation diets for the Blair cohort.