View Full Version : The Police
John William Ward wrote, ..."I prefer to see, every three of four years, half a dozen people getting their throats cut in the Ratcliff Road, than to have to submit to domiciliary vists, to spying, and all the machinations of Fouche" *
Ward was comparing the early 20th Century English model to the French model in regards to crime and the police. The English under a conservative government did not increase their police force in response to a rise in crime while the French did. My question to the forum is; would you be willing to make the same statement? Do you think that a large police force is anti-libertarian? Is security (or perceived security) more important than Liberty?
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen. Especially in the US the police do not prevent crime, they simply act as "civil guard" for the power of the state. Personally I think Policemen (women) should be seen as enemies of Liberty and should be opposed whenever possible.
*Quote taken from the text of Revolt of the Masses, Jose Ortega y Gasset. Actual quote from, Vide Elie Halevy, Histoire du Peuple Anglais au XIX siecle, Vol. I p.40 (1912)
John William Ward wrote, ..."I prefer to see, every three of four years, half a dozen people getting their throats cut in the Ratcliff Road, than to have to submit to domiciliary vists, to spying, and all the machinations of Fouche" *
Ward was comparing the early 20th Century English model to the French model in regards to crime and the police. The English under a conservative government did not increase their police force in response to a rise in crime while the French did. My question to the forum is; would you be willing to make the same statement? Do you think that a large police force is anti-libertarian? Is security (or perceived security) more important than Liberty?
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen. Especially in the US the police do not prevent crime, they simply act as "civil guard" for the power of the state. Personally I think Policemen (women) should be seen as enemies of Liberty and should be opposed whenever possible.
*Quote taken from the text of Revolt of the Masses, Jose Ortega y Gasset. Actual quote from, Vide Elie Halevy, Histoire du Peuple Anglais au XIX siecle, Vol. I p.40 (1912)
John William Ward wrote, ..."I prefer to see, every three of four years, half a dozen people getting their throats cut in the Ratcliff Road, than to have to submit to domiciliary vists, to spying, and all the machinations of Fouche" *
Ward was comparing the early 20th Century English model to the French model in regards to crime and the police. The English under a conservative government did not increase their police force in response to a rise in crime while the French did. My question to the forum is; would you be willing to make the same statement? Do you think that a large police force is anti-libertarian? Is security (or perceived security) more important than Liberty?
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen. Especially in the US the police do not prevent crime, they simply act as "civil guard" for the power of the state. Personally I think Policemen (women) should be seen as enemies of Liberty and should be opposed whenever possible.
*Quote taken from the text of Revolt of the Masses, Jose Ortega y Gasset. Actual quote from, Vide Elie Halevy, Histoire du Peuple Anglais au XIX siecle, Vol. I p.40 (1912)
Indeed, in the US, one of the main tasks of the police is to arrest individual's who choose to put this or that substance into there own bodies. Indeed, the majority of US prisoners are imprisoned for the crime of putting things the goverment dont like into there own bodies.
Indeed, in the US, one of the main tasks of the police is to arrest individual's who choose to put this or that substance into there own bodies. Indeed, the majority of US prisoners are imprisoned for the crime of putting things the goverment dont like into there own bodies.
Indeed, in the US, one of the main tasks of the police is to arrest individual's who choose to put this or that substance into there own bodies. Indeed, the majority of US prisoners are imprisoned for the crime of putting things the goverment dont like into there own bodies.
The Resistor
23rd June 2006, 23:59
in answer to your question, we need them, if we dont want them go ask. But if the police weren't in service of the oppressors, they would only keep people that misbehave and break the laws in check. There will always be people that f*ck around, remember the policeforce is not all bad stuff, at least not here..
The Resistor
23rd June 2006, 23:59
in answer to your question, we need them, if we dont want them go ask. But if the police weren't in service of the oppressors, they would only keep people that misbehave and break the laws in check. There will always be people that f*ck around, remember the policeforce is not all bad stuff, at least not here..
The Resistor
23rd June 2006, 23:59
in answer to your question, we need them, if we dont want them go ask. But if the police weren't in service of the oppressors, they would only keep people that misbehave and break the laws in check. There will always be people that f*ck around, remember the policeforce is not all bad stuff, at least not here..
On paper, a police force enforces peace and stability.
It protects those who are in danger and brings those who disrespect their follow man to justice and teachs them the error of their ways. These 'law men' put their life on the line everyday to uphold the law written down for them by the authority who cares about the people.
But in reality, its not as simple.
Yes, we do need them for the purpose of protection and peace, but in a society where the bougoius control the authority they are simple puppets with nite sticks and an illusion of justice.
On paper, a police force enforces peace and stability.
It protects those who are in danger and brings those who disrespect their follow man to justice and teachs them the error of their ways. These 'law men' put their life on the line everyday to uphold the law written down for them by the authority who cares about the people.
But in reality, its not as simple.
Yes, we do need them for the purpose of protection and peace, but in a society where the bougoius control the authority they are simple puppets with nite sticks and an illusion of justice.
On paper, a police force enforces peace and stability.
It protects those who are in danger and brings those who disrespect their follow man to justice and teachs them the error of their ways. These 'law men' put their life on the line everyday to uphold the law written down for them by the authority who cares about the people.
But in reality, its not as simple.
Yes, we do need them for the purpose of protection and peace, but in a society where the bougoius control the authority they are simple puppets with nite sticks and an illusion of justice.
they would only keep people that misbehave and break the laws in check.
Most laws, at least in the US have been established to limit individual liberties and to protect property and the rights of property owners. Laws against the person (rape, murder, assault etc) are by their very definition crimes that cannot be protected from, that is to say no matter what type of security is esablished there will always be rape, murder, etc.
Some Leftist would argue, including myself, that all crimes are a response not to personal/physiological flaws, but to material conditions and realities. Crime is for the most part subjective.
The problem with a police force is that an average man is given a few months of training, then given a gun, a club and a badge that puts himself on a plateau suspended from the masses, he is given an authority over his neighbor.
I can protect myself and my family I dont need the police, and to allow yourself to depend on any force for your protection and "peace" is foolish.
they would only keep people that misbehave and break the laws in check.
Most laws, at least in the US have been established to limit individual liberties and to protect property and the rights of property owners. Laws against the person (rape, murder, assault etc) are by their very definition crimes that cannot be protected from, that is to say no matter what type of security is esablished there will always be rape, murder, etc.
Some Leftist would argue, including myself, that all crimes are a response not to personal/physiological flaws, but to material conditions and realities. Crime is for the most part subjective.
The problem with a police force is that an average man is given a few months of training, then given a gun, a club and a badge that puts himself on a plateau suspended from the masses, he is given an authority over his neighbor.
I can protect myself and my family I dont need the police, and to allow yourself to depend on any force for your protection and "peace" is foolish.
they would only keep people that misbehave and break the laws in check.
Most laws, at least in the US have been established to limit individual liberties and to protect property and the rights of property owners. Laws against the person (rape, murder, assault etc) are by their very definition crimes that cannot be protected from, that is to say no matter what type of security is esablished there will always be rape, murder, etc.
Some Leftist would argue, including myself, that all crimes are a response not to personal/physiological flaws, but to material conditions and realities. Crime is for the most part subjective.
The problem with a police force is that an average man is given a few months of training, then given a gun, a club and a badge that puts himself on a plateau suspended from the masses, he is given an authority over his neighbor.
I can protect myself and my family I dont need the police, and to allow yourself to depend on any force for your protection and "peace" is foolish.
Comrade-Z
24th June 2006, 04:54
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen.
Pretty close. The police, together with the military, constitute the ruling class's arsenal used to maintain the ruling class's class rule.
Do we need police? Nope (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50034&st=0&#entry1292071340).
Comrade-Z
24th June 2006, 04:54
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen.
Pretty close. The police, together with the military, constitute the ruling class's arsenal used to maintain the ruling class's class rule.
Do we need police? Nope (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50034&st=0&#entry1292071340).
Comrade-Z
24th June 2006, 04:54
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen.
Pretty close. The police, together with the military, constitute the ruling class's arsenal used to maintain the ruling class's class rule.
Do we need police? Nope (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50034&st=0&#entry1292071340).
apathy maybe
24th June 2006, 08:20
I think that the police are bad. As I said in the first of the two threads I link below, police are scum. The good ones either leave or become scum.
Police have a terrible record when it comes to solving crime (getting prosecutions that are not overturned). There are so many crimes that are not reported or not solved. This should tell us something about the usefulness of the police.
The police are just an obvious example of the violence of the state against the population. If you try and do something that is considered "wrong", then violence is used against you.
Consider why you obey the law (if you do). Is it because you think that the law is correct? Or is it fear of the consequences?
If you think the law is correct, would you break it anyway? Do we need a law that says that thought shalt not murder?
Fuck the police.
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50945 police legitimacy
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50830 state and violence
The Resistor
24th June 2006, 16:12
Originally posted by apathy
[email protected] 24 2006, 05:21 AM
I think that the police are bad. As I said in the first of the two threads I link below, police are scum. The good ones either leave or become scum.
Police have a terrible record when it comes to solving crime (getting prosecutions that are not overturned). There are so many crimes that are not reported or not solved. This should tell us something about the usefulness of the police.
The police are just an obvious example of the violence of the state against the population. If you try and do something that is considered "wrong", then violence is used against you.
Consider why you obey the law (if you do). Is it because you think that the law is correct? Or is it fear of the consequences?
If you think the law is correct, would you break it anyway? Do we need a law that says that thought shalt not murder?
Fuck the police.
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50945 police legitimacy
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50830 state and violence
Yeeh like anarchism is good.... :s ik quote myself:
Red Army Soldier 4 live: after a lot of thinking : I think that anarcho communism will lead , after a time to again capitalism
Red Army Soldier 4 live: why? because if there are no rules, and people will not be checked and some people will gain power and possesions back, with will lead to the classstruggle again...nice ideals but it wont work, thats where communism steps in,
-------
If they base of our society changed, we will not need the police so much more, but there will be always be people who will break the law, you cannot go around it. You see police as wrong, and sometimes they are, but they also do a lot of good things at least in my country.
The Resistor
24th June 2006, 16:20
Originally posted by Comrade-
[email protected] 24 2006, 01:55 AM
In my opinion the Police are the mere tool of the state used to maintain those in power and to enforce laws which interfere with the individual liberties of the citizen.
Pretty close. The police, together with the military, constitute the ruling class's arsenal used to maintain the ruling class's class rule.
Do we need police? Nope (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50034&st=0&#entry1292071340).
if we abollish the classes, make every one equel, the police wont be the instrument of the ruling class, but of the people'state. So that the police can do its job correctly, catching thief's...racists, violent people, murders and such..
Comrade-Z
24th June 2006, 21:46
if we abollish the classes, make every one equel, the police wont be the instrument of the ruling class, but of the people'state. So that the police can do its job correctly, catching thief's...racists, violent people, murders and such..
Well, sure. Forming workers' militias will probably be necessary. But there's a huge different between a workers' militia and police.
Most importantly, police are full-time professional tools of enforcing the wills of others (whether those others are the state, greedy capitalists, or democratic workers' assemblies). What kind of mentality does this social function breed? Deference to authority, the "I was just following orders" mindset that dodges personal responsibility, and a paranoid "I need to keep watch on everyone because anyone could be a criminal" mentality. Just as full-time military officers are professional killers, full-time police are professional bullies and dispensers of threats and, sometimes, bullets.
Think about this too: on a daily basis, full-time police have to deal with the lowest of the low in society. This is bound to create a mentality of "Gosh, most people are just no good sacks of shit. Therefore, I think most people need an authority to tell them what to do for their own good and for the good of society." :o You can really see this occur with one of the police officer characters in the movie "Crash."
This is why any professional, full-time police force after the revolution must be averted at all costs. Instead, we will have workers' militias. These will be different in that the participants will be full-time workers (who will still maintain their working class consciousness) who will temporarily take turns doing militia duty, patrol duty, etc. Maybe every year each worker can do like 2 weeks in a workers' militia. Furthermore, these militias will be subject to democratic scrutiny and recall by the greater community. They will not stand as a force above and seperate from the working class. They will be directly accountable to the working class.
theraven
25th June 2006, 01:26
wow you guys jumped right from disucssing real world police to your utopia, how nice.
anyway-regarding the real world, police are nessacary for a varity of reasons
1) in urban centers the help maintian order. cops driving down the streets or doing a walking "beat" will reduce crime in the area they are walking in.
2) non-urban centers they enforce speeding laws (which have the dual effect of keeping roads safe and providing poor rural towns with much needed income)
3) response to crime-lets say your house is being broken into. you hear the door being unlocked and call the cops. in the meanitime you attempt to defend yourslef but are
a) able to subdue the cirminals, in which case the cops will arrive to take the cirimansl off to jail so they can be tried
b) not able to subduce the cimianls, in whaich case the cops will (hopefully) come and stop the crime and resuce you.
they also serve as an effective means to gaurd againt larger scale crimes like bank robbery or hotage situations. in those cases cops are clearly nessacayr as they are better traind
4)(and this is probably the most important thing cops are for)-solving crimes. you could argue that a small citiznes milita can handle all fo those, but the time, expeirnce, and educaion required to solve crimes requires a dedicated police force.
if we abollish the classes, make every one equel, the police wont be the instrument of the ruling class, but of the people'state
It is safe to say that if society was truly equal (without classes) most crimes would cease to exist simply because there would be no one to steal from. People steal from those who have, they commit the crime against an identifiable class of people (property owners) if we are all equal than the criminal who steals is in effect stealing from himself therfore theft would be pointless and so would the need for a force of police to protect against theft. And lets be honest most of police work is working against crimes to property or 'crimes' of vice (i.e. drugs, prostitution, gambling)
in urban centers the help maintian order. cops driving down the streets or doing a walking "beat" will reduce crime in the area they are walking in.
Yeah but the areas they dont walk in or drive in will see a surge in crime. The criminals move to where the cops are not. To truly irradicate crime society needs to begin to address the real issues that drive crime such as poverty.
non-urban centers they enforce speeding laws (which have the dual effect of keeping roads safe and providing poor rural towns with much needed income
For every 1 speeder they ticket there are probably at least 50+ that they don’t. The police effect on road safety is marginal at best. Also speeding fines don’t make the people in the towns any better off financially they do however increase the town government’s income and, get this, the police departments.
Like I stated before I don’t need the Police to protect me, and I certainly don’t need them to tell me what I can or cannot put into my body, what I buy or sell, or how I entertain myself. As long as what I do doesn’t cause any harm to my neighbor I should left alone. The State has no authority to organize an armed force of men and women to coerce my judgment and my actions, and to curtail my most basic right of self determination.
OneBrickOneVoice
25th June 2006, 02:21
Sure, everyone recognizes that cops are necessary in the barbaric capitalist system we have in place now. The system encourages greed and materialism in everything from billboards on the street to the rap that 50 cent spits to the Hollywood stars on TV. In communism there will be no crime as there will be no motive. Everyone will have everything they need to survive and won't be struggling to put food on the table.
Comrade-Z
25th June 2006, 02:21
wow you guys jumped right from disucssing real world police to your utopia, how nice.
The two issues are more connected than you think.
Even now, in the "real world," we don't need police, partly because we don't need class society either.
And even in today's world, I don't think you need police as a full-time authoritative institution unless you own significant amounts of property and need that property protected. Things like rape and murder can be dealt with through democratic community militias and tribunals (of course, not legally. If you insist on accepting legality as a pre-requisite, then of course we are going to "need" police, almost by definition).
Janus
25th June 2006, 04:19
Most importantly, police are full-time professional tools of enforcing the wills of others
Right. Many people refuse to see that the police are fundamentally reactionary and are simply the tools of the ruling class. It really does not matter what societal class individual police officers are from.
theraven
25th June 2006, 07:43
The two issues are more connected than you think.
Even now, in the "real world," we don't need police, partly because we don't need class society either.
so you think all crime wil cease once classes are elimianted (assuming that ever happens)? my my someone smoked a strong bowl of hash today....
And even in today's world, I don't think you need police as a full-time authoritative institution unless you own significant amounts of property and need that property protected. Things like rape and murder can be dealt with through democratic community militias and tribunals (of course, not legally. If you insist on accepting legality as a pre-requisite, then of course we are going to "need" police, almost by definition).
well see herse the thing. yes of course milits and tribuansl can do the whole arresting and trying thing, however over the many many years of human exicientse we've treid a lot of ways of convicting people, and one of the best ways is the anglo-american judical system which is based on an investiagve force (cops) and lawyers fro both the state/plantiff (depenidng on the case) and defendent, with a jury of the defendetns peers and an impartial judge. this works very well, and while it has its flaws is vastly superioer to vigalinate justice (which is what your system amounts to)
and it depends on your view of signficatn amount of property. most people feel the desire for police to protect thier home, places of work and persons. they are not rich, they just know that if a gang of crimansl mugs you chances are your getting your proprety taken.
Yeah but the areas they dont walk in or drive in will see a surge in crime. The criminals move to where the cops are not. To truly irradicate crime society needs to begin to address the real issues that drive crime such as poverty.
nothing will truely erradicate crime, and erradicating classes is not realistc even if t worked, so the most effective having routes cops go on so that they patrol the whole city.
For every 1 speeder they ticket there are probably at least 50+ that they don’t. The police effect on road safety is marginal at best. Also speeding fines don’t make the people in the towns any better off financially they do however increase the town government’s income and, get this, the police departments.
well lets look at it this way. with cops on the road msot people stay at most 10 miles above the speed limit, out of fear they wil get caught. people are less liekly to drink and drive becuse of police...adn so on. does this mean police are perfect and elminate these problems? no of course not, they jsut minimize them
and yes thats where the revnue goes. and so when the town builds that soccer field for the kids you wann aknow where they got some of the money from?
Like I stated before I don’t need the Police to protect me, and I certainly don’t need them to tell me what I can or cannot put into my body, what I buy or sell, or how I entertain myself. As long as what I do doesn’t cause any harm to my neighbor I should left alone. The State has no authority to organize an armed force of men and women to coerce my judgment and my actions, and to curtail my most basic right of self determination.
Im sure you'll efel you do't need cops to protect you when your being held at gun opint while your attackers freinds brugalize your house and rape your family members and ..you get he picture? cops serve a useful purpose bro, and im sorry its illegal to smoke weed but hey.
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