scottish socialism - seats gained

[scott thesocialist]

so what do you people think about the scottish socialism partry's seats gained in the local election we now have 5 seats in the parliment do you think that socialist revolution could happen in scotland?

[il Commy]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but isn't Scotland a part from Britian? Anyway, how many seats are their in this parliament?

I don't believe parliamentism can reach a revolution, but if the revolutionary party ha seats in it that means they have many supporters and that they could use it to gain rights for the workers and build their trust in the party.

A real revolution comes from workers councils and factories comitees, not from the parliament.

[Jesus Christ]

yes, it is very possible that revolution could break out in dear old scotland, they are the people to get things done
especially if the rate that the socialist party is growing keeps up

(Edited by Primus32302 at 8:57 pm on May 10, 2003)

[Sandanista]

Can i just correct you scott on sayin we actually got 6 MSPs.

Il Commy, scotland is still ruled from England, but we were granted some devolved powers including our own parliament where we can debate on such devolved powers, there are 129 seats in said parliament.

I am pretty sure that Scotland may very well be the staging point for a revolution, especially if more ppl join the SWP platform in the SSP

[scott thesocialist]

my mistake what i meant was we gained 5 more tommy regain his sorry for my mistake, and yes scotland is part of britain but the is the point of my idea of a revolution! to break free from westminster and use the resources we have.

[Kez]

"I am pretty sure that Scotland may very well be the staging point for a revolution, especially if more ppl join the SWP platform in the SSP"

hahahahah!!!

good one.

the SWP are good for fuck all, maybe the SSP can acheive something if they have a more revolutionary policy and internationalist, until then i dont think they will be able to lead anything

[scott thesocialist]

so what the fuck are you good at? i was only asking there was need to be so fucking rude!

[Wolfie]

one word, Reactionary

[Kez]

moi?

fact: did you know the leader of teh SWP in America drives a limo???

i wouldnt help the SWP if they were the only party in the world

[bolshevik1917]

Although it is understandable to see why the SSP have made reasonable gains in parliament, I do not regard them as a permanent fixture - or a revolutionary vehicle.

Where I live (Fife) the party seems to contain everything but revolutionary socialists, theres femenists, anarchists, liberals, reformists, petty bourgoise activists, pacifists etc

This might look like a solid show of unity, but they spend half their time at eachothers throats.

As for the SWP platform, these are the guys who laughed at me for mentioning revolution...

The SSP, despite being the only real 'left' party at the moment have still failed to dent Labours armour. They are also continuing to ignore the mass organisations which is rather sectarian and cuts them off from workers.

The SSP will no doubt contain a good layer of comrades, workers and youth alike. But unless these people are won over to Marxism, and the need to work in an international revolutionary organisation, then it will be a tradgedy for both the Scottish, and world working class.

[Sandanista]

STOP THE PRESSES!!!

THE SSP HAVE A REVOULUTIONARY MEMBERSHIP, THE INVERCLYDE BRANCH OF THE SSP!!! WAH-HEY

i dont know who bolshevik spoke to when he was laughed at but all of the SWP members i know are revolutionary.

The SSP doesnt exclude big organisations as we are tryin to win over the trade unions.

The majority of the Party understand marxism, but these 2 sectarian militants are tryin to win over support for their organisation and should really bugger off if they want to spoute shite.

[bolshevik1917]

It seems every socialist/communist party in the UK is trying to 'win over' the trade unions, they seem to forget that the trade unions formed their own party. And that party is currently under control of the right wing, mainly due to so many people leaving the Labour party and trying to get the TU's to join them.

[Sandanista]

yeah but the SSP are currently holding meeting with the RMT and the FBU about democratising where their union subs go to.

Many trade unions wish to do the same and democratise their funding.

[bolshevik1917]

If I am to speak as a trade unionist myself (im in the GMB) then I want my subs to help strengthen my union, the TUC, and to return the Labour party to its working class roots to defend our interests.

Many new TU leaders (Woodley of the T&G for example) have expressed their views on creating a campaign to reclaim the Labour party. I support this, historicly the smaller 'socialist' parties have never been able to budge Labour by fighting them in elections. Even in the most troubled times in over a decade the 'radical' SSP still failed to make the gains they expected.

There is no short cut to party building remember

[Kez]

first i should apologise for my secterian outlook there, i was proper pissed off at something else and ouut of order on the board.

2ndly, there is a save the labour party meeting this saturday in manchester, so if anyone is interested in going and seeing whats REALLY going on then PM for details

[WUOrevolt]

Scotland? It could happen and if it does im moving to scotland.

[Sandanista]

The SSP hasnt existed for even half a decade yet nevermind a whole one.

Labour is a lost cause, move on, Tony and his cronies are too filled with the milk of capitalism that they dont even have a basis for the working people.

Many young ppl nowadays are looking towards the SSP as an alternative to New Labour and we will continue to grow into an even larger political force.

A spectre is haunting scottish politics, the ghost of the dead socialist roots of the labour party.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Sandanista on 11:07 pm on May 14, 2003
The SSP hasnt existed for even half a decade yet nevermind a whole one.

Labour is a lost cause, move on, Tony and his cronies are too filled with the milk of capitalism that they dont even have a basis for the working people.

Many young ppl nowadays are looking towards the SSP as an alternative to New Labour and we will continue to grow into an even larger political force.

A spectre is haunting scottish politics, the ghost of the dead socialist roots of the labour party.

I agree, however I think the SSP are more left than the LP ever where, and that is something we should continue to defend against certain elements of the party who's idea of a better future is some kind of "reformist utopia".

[scott thesocialist]

so do we support the ssp or do we support well who else? does nobody ever think about starting a movement or a new party to fight for what they believe, or do we just argue that one party is better that the other,we must unite and work togther for a better future brothers and sisters i call apon you to join forces to overcome this tyrant bush and this hell that he proclaims is freedom togther we shall bring peace and equality to the world.

[bolshevik1917]

That is an important question Scott.

As revolutionaries we must fight inside an international revolutionary organisation (go to www.marxist.com ), capitalism is an international system and therefore must be replaced by international socialism.

We should work alongside reformist parties like the SSP, and the Labour party when it swings to the left (I’ll come to this in a minute) and try to draw out their best elements of youth and workers, winning them to revolutionary ideas.

But we must realise that we cannot put too much faith in a reformist party to bring about revolution. Despite the SSP having some revolutionary comrades they are far outnumbered by other 'lefts' some of which are horrified at the sound of the word 'communism'

I think to say that the LP has never been as far left as the SSP is irrelevant (and I disagree anyway), the bottom line is that both are reformist parties - the only thing is one is much bigger and is affiliated to the trade unions.

Labour will swing to the left, you can already see the start of this process. When it does swing to the left it will attract alot of youth and workers who we can only win to revolutionary international socialism if we are there with them.

The SWP and parties like them for years have stood shouting 'get out of that party, join this one' but tactics like this only seek to destroy our movement.

All in all we must see things dialectically, internationally, and revolutionary:)


(Edited by bolshevik1917 at 12:18 pm on May 15, 2003)

[Sandanista]

I fully agree that the within the SSPs ranks there are far more reformists than revolutionaries, but the demographic in the Labour Party is far higher than the SSP. Labour will never swing back to the left and the trade unions are walking away from them.

Yes Scott but as the SSP is the the most popular socialist party in britain, it seems as tho we are the organisation which everyone should turn to. It is not us who are destroying the movement as we have united 95% of the left in Scotland.

It's practically insane to suggest that socialism can only be acheived if the whole world unites against capitalism at the same time, this is insane, there are countries in the world than could survive as socialist societies as they have enough resources in that one particular state.

We should all unite and then argue our differences after the revolution.

Support the SSP as it the only true enemy of capitalism in Scotland.

[YKTMX]

Well, what I am certain off is that the Labour Party, at least in leadership terms, has never asserted itself as "anti-capitalist". I personally don't think they will ever swing back to the left at the high levels. They're already losing thousands of members a year. This I think shows that people who have been members pre '97 now see the party lost to Blairism and "the third way". And strangely enough, I think that can only be good for the SSP in Scotland.

[bolshevik1917]

"Support the SSP as it the only true enemy of capitalism in Scotland"

Isnt that a bit sectarian of you?

Tommy Sheridan has never spoke about overthrowing capitalism, infact he often refers to Sweden as 'what we want to acheive'

He also blames the majority of our problems on England.

And to say that the Labour party will never swing to the left is rigid, un-dialectical 'formal logic' type thinking.

"The unions are walking away from the Labour party" you say...

The Gen Sec of the NUJ, Jeremy Dear says

"The situation in Britain for the Left is as good as it has been at any time I can remember. We have seen the biggest mass movement in living memory against the war and it is important the labour movement seeks to win all those young people to the banner of socialism. We have a growing, more confident and more active trade union movement and a campaign within the Labour Party to reclaim it for socialist policies."

Alan Simpson MP says

"If you want to really piss-off Blair, hold on to your Labour Party card, and get your union to affiliate. This will scare the living-daylights out of them. Tearing up your card was what Blair wanted active trade unionists to do."

Andy Gilchrist FBU says

"My call on Saturday was simply to work within the constitution of Labour to reclaim the party for socialist values and pro-working class policies: to work for greater equality and fairer rewards, for full employment and jobs paying decent wages, for progressive taxation to fund better public services"

Your perspectives on international revolution remind me of the stalinists, you are a beleiver in socialism in one country then? Of course not all revolutions can come at the same time, but when a revolution happens you dont just 'set up socialism'. You need a workers state, and you need to keep thinking internationaly to acheive socialism.

[YKTMX]

Yes, but all that forgets the reason why Labour went the day it did in the first place, namely because they couldn't win an election. If it's a choice between Blair and power, and "Old Labour" and opposition, I'd find it hard to think they'd not pick Blair.

[Kez]

During Foot's leadership, Labour i beleive had a very leftwing (not socialist/communist) manifesto, and it won over 30% of the votes RIGHT AFTER the falklands war, and we know what happens to an incumpbent leader after they win a war? there support is high. Over 30% votes for such a left wing labour party in a period of time where Thatcher had won the falklands war. This was no little acheivement.
Let us not forget the Liverpool 47 and "municipal socialism", this was possible through a LP, and in my opinion, could only be done by a LP.

[YKTMX]

Yeah, that is interesting, don't think it changes what I said though.

[scott thesocialist]

thats all very interesting but i don't want the LP to rule scotland from westminster cause thats where the rule will stay if the LP stay in power. i want a socialist scotland free from westmister an working towards relations with other socialist states we can trade with and then help our brothers and sisters in our countries in the struggle for a free socialist state BUT we must first finish the struggle here and rid our country of the war monger blair and his lies in which he fills the papers tv news and to the rest of the world, for it was him you went against 2 million marchers we need to keep the support from before the war and rise up once more and defeat the captalist from destroying the world!

[Sandanista]

Yeah u acheive socialism by the workers arresting control, but just because this may happen in Scotland 10 years b4 anyone else doesnt make it any less socialist, of course u have to think internationally, we have an international commitee who work with organisations in other countries.

However scott ur a moon unit, u dont have trade in socialism, thats called STATE-CAPITALISM!!!

Well thank heavens for the internationalists in the party then...

Bring it on.

[bolshevik1917]

Sandistra, first you say you could have socialism in one country then you cant trade because its state capitalism.

Does that mean you think the UK could be a final stage communist society with no money or anything, whilst the rest of the world was capitalist.

Also the SSP does in a sense belong to an international comitee, but its an international comitee of small reformist partys on the fringes of the labour movement. There is no revolutionary structure and no international work carried out by SSP branches either.

These things dont just spring out of nowhere.

[Sandanista]

To a certain extent it could, it has the natural resources that are needed for people to live a comfortable life.

[bolshevik1917]

Irrelivant of what resources are available it is whether or not society is ready to move onto that stage. The stage where money withers away can only be acheived on a world scale. As I have said, capitalism is global and must be replaced globally.

You cant have socialism in one country, nevermind complete communism

[Sandanista]

yeah but one country has to set the precedent.

[GCusack]

I sure do hope so! I want Scotland to be free from the Imperialism of their Saxon neighbour! I was over joyed wen the scotish socialists gained seats! The highlight of this very dreary last local election!

[bolshevik1917]

That is petty nationalism and it is playing into the hands of the ruling class who seek to divide workers into nation states!!

[Sandanista]

Not necessarily, i dont support groups like ETA and stuff, the basque and catalonian regions are not victims of imperialism, whereas scotland is

[Pete]

But the ETA and Catalonians probaly view themselves as victims of Franco-Spaniard Imperialism. Just as the EZLN sees themselves as victims of Mexican (and before that Spanish) imperialism, or the First Nations in Canada Canadian/British/French imperialism ect ect

[Sandanista]

but the basque and catalonian regions have been part of spain and a wee bit of france since the time when spain was split up into Castile and Aragon, catalonia and basque were part of castille, every national struggle has to be looked at individually.

It isnt petty nationalism as the revolution obviously wont stop in scotland, itll just start there, its very true to say that u cannot have complete communism in one nation, however the revolution is more likely to start in an individual nation.

[bolshevik1917]

We should not be thinking of ourselves as different nationalities, you are Scottish Martin, so am I, but then so is Sean Connery and Brian Soutar.

We should be fighting under the banner of the international working class, not petty national struggles which, as ive said, only seek to destroy our movement and split us up.

[Sandanista]

To be honest bolshe you have a fucking good point, i would prefer if the Uk wasnt divided, however without the Scottish Parliament we would have never have had socialist parliamenterians.

I know, i know they aren't socialists, but if it wasnt for ppl like tommy sheridan i would never have read marx or trotsky.

the reason y i defend scotland is it looks to be inevitable that it will become independant so in a way im preparing for an eventuality.

That said we should unite under the banner of the International Working Class!!!

[bolshevik1917]

Another thing that is maybe worth mentioning is the revolutionary process throughout the world.

Capitalism is global, so it booms globally and slumps globally. Now the chances are that any revolution will happen when conditions are at their worst (in a slump) so we would not end up with isolated revolutions anywhere - as long as there was a strong and genuine leadership throughout.

In 1917 and onwards revolution swept throughout Europe, we should really have acheived socialism then, but that didnt happen. The good thing is though I think we have the potential to come back stronger than ever.

[Sandanista]

Here here, we will come back stronger, but only if sectarians like the SPGB grow up a bit

[WUOrevolt]

go for it. Let's make it happen.

[scott thesocialist]

so we are in agreement that we should work together for a better future for the workers of the world, if we start a movement here in scotland then we can spread it across the world gathering members who will fight the cause for a socialist world but we can't do it alone i call apon all brothers and sisters now is the time to stand up and be counted for now is the time for change time to put into pratice what we preach are you with we or against me? this will happen it has started now its up to you to ask yourself am i just talking or are you part of the movement i leave it up to you to decide....

[Conghaileach]

As socialists we opposed the role of Yankee and English imperialism in Afghanistan, Iraq, and so forth.

So why do we not oppose the role of English imperialism in Ireland, Scotland and Wales?

This is not about petty nationalism. As James Connolly put when he spoke of Ireland, our greatest enemy is British imperialism, our greatest ally is the British [ie. English, Scottish and Welsh] working class.

Allow me to post some other Connolly quotes:

"The internationalism of the future will be based upon the free federation of free peoples and cannot be realised through the subjugation of the smaller by the larger political unit."

"We still believe that the struggle of Ireland for freedom is a part of the world-wide upward movement of the toilers of the earth, and we still believe that the emancipation of the working class carries within it the end of all tyranny - national, political and social."

[Conghaileach]

And a quote from the great Scottish socialist, John MacLean:

"My plea is that Britain has no right to dominate Ireland with constabulary armed with bombs, and with an army and navy considered foreign by the Irish. We Scots have been taught to revere the names of Sir William Wallace and Robert Bruce because these doughty men of old are recorded as championing the cause of freedom when Edward I and Edward II tried to absorb Scotland as part of English territory. All Scots must therefore appreciate the plight of Ireland, which for over seven centuries has chafed under the same English yoke, and now ought to stand by Ireland in her last great effort for freedom; the last because triumph is bound to be hers very soon."

This from a Scottish socialist republican. Hardly petty nationalism, is it?

[bolshevik1917]

McLean and Connolly were great Marxists, but only after years of demoralising defeats did they start swaying to nationalism. We cannot critiscise these revolutionary heroes, but we should understand their reasons for saying what they did and when they said it. We should not be so blind as to follow every word they said.

Again I make my point clear, a nation state is something that has been invented by the bourgeoise and will die with them. We fight only with our comrades, the international working class - not for the freedom of a nation state (whatever that means) but for the freedom of our class worldwide.

Anyone who is willing to be bogged down in national disputes should step aside now, they are holding back the movement of the international working class and have no place in our struggle.

[Conghaileach]

The working class around the British isles can never be free until the British empire is destroyed. A huge defeat for the empire (i.e. the liberation of one of its subject nations) will awaken the English workers and signal a revolution.

As for your conception of nation states, they have existsed for a thousand years, and a few hundred more.

I've been of the belief that when international communism is achieved, the most reasonable way to decentralise is through nation states, which can then be decentralised further into federal states.

Every nation is not going to revolt at the exact same time. There isn't going to be one large full-scale international revolution. It will happen on a national basis.

from the Communist Manifesto:
"The struggle of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie is at first a national struggle. The proletariat of each country must, of course, first of all settle matters with its own bourgeoisie."

(Edited by CiaranB at 8:16 pm on May 19, 2003)

[GCusack]

I concour Ciaran!! They must be removed, NI, Scotland and Wales must be liberated- hopefully peacefully!! Britain must be defeated!!
Y have so many parts of the empire been given freedom, India for example while N.I. Wales and Scotland are still imprissoned under the 'Union' Jack!!

[peaccenicked]

The democratic movement of the Welsh and Scottish people in dissolving the British 'nation' should be supported by the British working class.
I submit the only basis of any permanent unity can be in destroying the most reactionary entity in the history of the world:British imperialism, in any way we can.

[Kez]

there are no "english" capitalists or "scottish" capitalists, they are the same shit, different smell.

They are capitalists, therefore must be destoryed.

Granted in the past the English have swayed to allow English capitalists to plunder the Scots eg in north sea oil, but if you split the state, then your gonna split the workforce

eg, the rail unnions, if you split them then you cant put the whole of england scotland and wales into standstill.
IF the scottish unions stand, then fuck all is gonna happen in london is it?

But now in london if the train drivers wanna strike, then the scots strike also, leaving the whole countrys' economy in the shit. So unless you want to weaken there power of the workers, then theres no point in this petit nationalist viewpoint of statehood being important.

[peaccenicked]

I dont think Trotsky would chain the working class to the 'Labourite' chains to British imperialism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...1916/dublin.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1916/dublin.htm)

[Conghaileach]

I found the closing lines of that Trotksy piece very stirring.

[Sandanista]

Scotland and wales have always been at the front of the british empire, it was the scottish who went and won ever bloody imperialist war for the empire in the 300 odd year history of the union, as kamo said, all capitalists are the same, same shit different name.