Belgium Sentences Two For Racist Web Site [Archive]

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expedition

23rd June 2006, 18:21

Two members of a Belgian Islamic center have been sentenced to jail and fined for racist language and videos on the group's Web site.

Abdel Rahman Ayachi, 26, and Raphael Gendron, 30, were given a 10-month sentence, with five months suspended, and fined $22,000, Expatica News reports.

The center's Web site included a video and statements denying the Holocaust, making light of Nazi actions and racist remarks about Jews and other groups.

http://www.culturebattles.com

expedition

23rd June 2006, 18:21

expedition

23rd June 2006, 18:21

An archist

23rd June 2006, 19:37

Jup, here in Belgium people get punished for racism.
Does that shock you?

An archist

23rd June 2006, 19:37

Jup, here in Belgium people get punished for racism.
Does that shock you?

An archist

23rd June 2006, 19:37

Jup, here in Belgium people get punished for racism.
Does that shock you?

Janus

23rd June 2006, 21:29

I agree that people are punished for racism but I'm not so sure about this crack-down by the state as it does go against freedom of speech, etc.

Janus

23rd June 2006, 21:29

I agree that people are punished for racism but I'm not so sure about this crack-down by the state as it does go against freedom of speech, etc.

Janus

23rd June 2006, 21:29

I agree that people are punished for racism but I'm not so sure about this crack-down by the state as it does go against freedom of speech, etc.

24th June 2006, 05:48

If you want to find out how free your speech is, go up to a police officer and threaten the president.

24th June 2006, 05:48

If you want to find out how free your speech is, go up to a police officer and threaten the president.

24th June 2006, 05:48

If you want to find out how free your speech is, go up to a police officer and threaten the president.

MKS

24th June 2006, 10:05

If you want to find out how free your speech is, go up to a police officer and threaten the president.
Both instances of oppression are wrong and should be fought against. A racist just like everyone else has the right to espose his twisted doctrines. We cannot be subjective with the right to free speech and expression.

Zero

24th June 2006, 10:10

I agree in principle. However if someone expresses the general want to destroy society by spliting everyone up into categories determined by race, cross sectioned with religion, then put them all in nice little rows, make them dig very long holes, and then shoot them in the back... I don't see what "right" they have to be able to express that, and draw support. Such simply dim bigotry has no place in any society what-so-ever.

I have been attacked more then once by 'the fash' for being on "The wrong side" of civil liberties. Make no mistake, if there was a US version of Redwatch, my personal info would probably be up there. To quote a woman who I saw just briefly on Comrade Marcel's ARATorronto video "They want to kill me, they want to kill my family, they want to kill my friends."

An archist

24th June 2006, 23:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 07:06 AM
Both instances of oppression are wrong and should be fought against. A racist just like everyone else has the right to espose his twisted doctrines. We cannot be subjective with the right to free speech and expression.
He/she has the right to express his/her opinion, but not restrict other people's opinions wich is usually what they do, defending it by 'free speech'

dso79

25th June 2006, 16:22

The center's Web site included a video and statements denying the Holocaust, making light of Nazi actions and racist remarks about Jews and other groups.

In that video Israel’s policies (in the Palestinian territories) were compared with those of Nazi-Germany. Some people might find that inappropriate, but it’s definitely not the same as holocaust denial.

Those racist remarks were not made by the owners of the site, but by members of the site's forum.

Marx_was_right!

27th June 2006, 14:46

Jup, here in Belgium people get punished for racism.

That sux big time. Epople shoudl be free to say watever. Why should peopole be stopped from saying wat they want? Belgium people uneducated big time. Im sick of communism. I want to change now.

Vladislav

27th June 2006, 14:58

So you're saying that you agree with racism and that people should walk around being racist fucks.

You sound like a Nazi.

Marx_was_right!

27th June 2006, 15:37

So you're saying that you agree with racism and that people should walk around being racist fucks.
I sad no such thing. I said peopel should not be locked up for it. Its dumb.

Ander

27th June 2006, 17:42

Originally posted by Vladislav+--> (Vladislav)So you're saying that you agree with racism and that people should walk around being racist fucks.[/b]

Are you sure you were reading the right post? Because nowhere did I see him say "I agree with racism and people should be racist."

Holy shit, way to put words into someone's mouth!

Vladislav
You sound like a Nazi.

So you're saying that he is a member of the National Socialist Party and that he kills Jews?

Same fucking thing.

Vladislav

28th June 2006, 14:19

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jun 27 2006, 11:47 AM

Jup, here in Belgium people get punished for racism.

That sux big time. Epople shoudl be free to say watever. Why should peopole be stopped from saying wat they want? Belgium people uneducated big time. Im sick of communism. I want to change now.
He/She said that people "should be free to say whatever," I'm assuming that that includes racism and other dumb discriminatory shit.

As for the "I'm sick of communism. I want to change now."
Fine.

I never put words into other peoples mouths. Get your shit straight.

somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback

28th June 2006, 14:24

Hey, all you people who come whining about free speech for racists and shit, you should come and try living here. A lot of my fellow countrymen are racist assholes, and if we were to just tolerate that in the name of "free speech" (wtf? :blink: ) we'd have no grounds whatsoever to battle these bastards.
Believe me, if you don't live in Belgium you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject; it's a good thing that website got shut down.

Ander

28th June 2006, 22:11

Originally posted by Vladislav+--> (Vladislav)He/She said that people "should be free to say whatever,"[/b]

Wow, that's pretty crazy because I've heard TONS of people say it before. You might me familiar with it, it's one of those really important civil rights known as free speech. I'm a firm believer in it actually, which I guess makes me a Nazi. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vladislav+--> (Vladislav)I'm assuming that that includes racism and other dumb discriminatory shit.[/b]

Of course it includes racism and "other dumb discriminatory shit" because how can you have free speech only for a select few?

Racism offends us because we are decent human beings, but so what? Maybe we should start banning the use of "fuck," "shit," and other inappropriate language? My mother is certainly offended when she hears that kind of language, I guess we should crack down on it!

Originally posted by Vladislav
As for the "I'm sick of communism. I want to change now." Fine.

Yes, because there are only two ideologies in the world that a person can follow. If you're not a communist, you're definitely a Nazi. :rolleyes: I don't like communism much either myself, does that make me a fascist? Nope.

[email protected]
I never put words into other peoples mouths. Get your shit straight.

Now that this is the second time I've shown you that you have, do you still have something to say?

s3rna
Believe me, if you don't live in Belgium you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject; it's a good thing that website got shut down.

Oh give me a fucking break, as if you're the only one who has ever seen racism before. Believe me, I wish that racism didn't exist and deep down I think that these laws are an amazing way to destroy it, but it just completely goes against my belief in free speech. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it must be shot down.

Vladislav

29th June 2006, 14:11

Originally posted by Jello+Jun 28 2006, 07:12 PM--> (Jello @ Jun 28 2006, 07:12 PM)
Originally posted by Vladislav+--> (Vladislav)He/She said that people "should be free to say whatever,"[/b]

Wow, that's pretty crazy because I've heard TONS of people say it before. You might me familiar with it, it's one of those really important civil rights known as free speech. I'm a firm believer in it actually, which I guess makes me a Nazi. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vladislav
I'm assuming that that includes racism and other dumb discriminatory shit.

Of course it includes racism and "other dumb discriminatory shit" because how can you have free speech only for a select few?

Racism offends us because we are decent human beings, but so what? Maybe we should start banning the use of "fuck," "shit," and other inappropriate language? My mother is certainly offended when she hears that kind of language, I guess we should crack down on it!

[email protected]
As for the "I'm sick of communism. I want to change now." Fine.

Yes, because there are only two ideologies in the world that a person can follow. If you're not a communist, you're definitely a Nazi. :rolleyes: I don't like communism much either myself, does that make me a fascist? Nope.

Vladislav
I never put words into other peoples mouths. Get your shit straight.

Now that this is the second time I've shown you that you have, do you still have something to say? [/b]
Once again... Get your shit straight I never called anyone a nazi. I said that the member Marx_was_right! sounded like one by saying that the people who made the racist website shouldn't be in jail.

Racism and coarse language are completely different things. Why should we judge someone by their race? It is offensive,disgusting and degrading. No one should be judged by their race. Coarse language on the other hand is used by millions of people around the fucking world. Do you get offended when a main character in a movie says "fuck" or "shit"?

And where did I say that there are "only two ideologies" that someone can follow?
That's like saying my parents are Nazis. Which they aren't.

Looks like you're the one whos been putting words into peoples mouths.

somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback

29th June 2006, 15:08

Originally posted by Jello+Jun 28 2006, 08:12 PM--> (Jello @ Jun 28 2006, 08:12 PM)
s3rna
Believe me, if you don't live in Belgium you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject; it's a good thing that website got shut down.

Oh give me a fucking break, as if you're the only one who has ever seen racism before. Believe me, I wish that racism didn't exist and deep down I think that these laws are an amazing way to destroy it, but it just completely goes against my belief in free speech. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it must be shot down. [/b]
You're so annoying. Please read my post. I said "on this subject"; about this particular website; about racism in Belgium. Approximately 25% of the Belgians votes for an openly racist party with a nazi history; if racism wasn't prohibited all hell would break loose.

And yes, I do think racism needs to be "shot down" (sic). One cannot abuse freedom of speech to limit another ones.

Ander

29th June 2006, 19:20

Originally posted by Vladislav+--> (Vladislav)I said that the member Marx_was_right! sounded like one by saying that the people who made the racist website shouldn't be in jail.[/b]

I don't see how that makes him sound like a Nazi? Could you explain? I don't see any distinct correlation between Nazism and protection of freedom of speech.

Originally posted by Vladislav+--> (Vladislav)Racism and coarse language are completely different things. Why should we judge someone by their race? It is offensive,disgusting and degrading. No one should be judged by their race.[/b]

Dude, don't you understand? I agree with you 100%, I am completely against racism and any kind of prejudice really. This doesn't mean that we should outlaw it and jail all those who express racist ideas, that sounds like a police state to me.

Originally posted by Vladislav
Coarse language on the other hand is used by millions of people around the fucking world. Do you get offended when a main character in a movie says "fuck" or "shit"?

I was using this as an example. Racism offends us, just as coarse language offends others. You know all those crazy people and associations who are trying to ban music and video games with "inappropriate themes" because they are offended by them. Hell, there was a massive controversy over some unlockable shit in GTA: San Andreas a while ago because of it. Do you think those nutjobs got what they wanted just because they didn't agree with it? Nope.

Racists, fascists, Nazi's...leave them be. Let them talk their shit and do whatever (as long as it does not harm anyone else) without consequence from the law. Eventually they will get what's coming to them, which will likely take the shape of a boot to the face.

Originally posted by Vladislav
And where did I say that there are "only two ideologies" that someone can follow?

Well, you said you thought he was a Nazi because he was tired of communism. Put two and two together.

[email protected]
Approximately 25% of the Belgians votes for an openly racist party with a nazi history; if racism wasn't prohibited all hell would break loose.

How would it be any different? If it's against the law, but there is still an openly racist political party with a large following, then your laws are clearly quite useless and shitty.

s3rna
And yes, I do think racism needs to be "shot down" (sic). One cannot abuse freedom of speech to limit another ones.

How is racism limiting freedom of speech? Racism is a belief, and unless you see these racists running around and literally forcing people to stop expressing themselves, I have no idea what you're talking about.

If anything, you are using freedom of speech to limit another one's freedom.

somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback

29th June 2006, 23:20

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 05:21 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Clearly.

LSD

30th June 2006, 01:14

Once again... Get your shit straight I never called anyone a nazi. I said that the member Marx_was_right! sounded like one by saying that the people who made the racist website shouldn't be in jail.

So defending free speech makes one a "Nazi" now? Considering that the actual Nazis were rather legendary for their suppression of speech, that's a pretty bizarre statement to make.

Anyone who is arrested or jailed because of their political beliefs is a political prisoner, full stop. And supporting the "right" of the bourgeois state to hold political prisoners is intrinsically antirevolutionary.

Believe me, there will come a time when our speech will be labeled as "dangerous" or "offensive" and we will be jailed for expressing it. And unless we start fighting against legislative excesses now, it will be too late when our time comes.

Remember that famous Poem by Martin Niemoller? The "first they came for the Jews" one? Well it applies just as much in this case.

We may not be racists, indeed we may hate racists with all our hearts. But that does not mean that we should welcome their oppression, because the same engine that is geared to oppress them now will be quickly turned on us the moment we become a thorn in the bourgeoisie's hide.

Don't make the mistake of believeing that the capitalists or their government ever act in our interests. They don't!

Racism and coarse language are completely different things.

Obviously, but both are still forms of speech and as such must be protected. Racism is a disgusting sentiment, but the way to defeat it is not to "silence" its proponents. "Hiding" reaction has never been the way to eliminate it and "addressing" racism by pretending that it doesn't exist is like treating cancer by not getting a biopsy.

The way to fight racism is to fight racism, locking up racists doesn't discredit the "theory" behind it and only feeds into the oppression complex that defines modern racism.

Why should we judge someone by their race?

We shouldn't!

But neither should we empower the bourgeois state to dictate what is and what is not "appropriate" for mass consumption.

Hey, all you people who come whining about free speech for racists and shit, you should come and try living here. A lot of my fellow countrymen are racist assholes, and if we were to just tolerate that in the name of "free speech" (wtf? ) we'd have no grounds whatsoever to battle these bastards.

:huh:

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Racism is a valid target of attack because of the nature of racism, not because the bourgeois state doesn't like it. It doesn't matter whether the government of Belgium locks up or looks up to racists, attacking racism would still be right.

And to claim that the "only" way to attack reaction is with bourgeois assistance is, quite frankly, insane.

Are you claiming that we have "no grounds whatsoever to do battle" with capitalism? Well, why not? After all, capitalists aren't being locked up!

Defending free speech does not mean defending what is spoken. It means opposing any attempt by coercive authority to extend itself into the realm of human discourse. We can knock down racist "arguments" well enough on our own. We don't need the state to "get our backs".

And yes, I do think racism needs to be "shot down" (sic). One cannot abuse freedom of speech to limit another ones.

That statement is constructively flawed.

The only thing that "limits free speech" is limiting free speech. And whether it's a racist with a basebal bar or a bourgeois parliament with the "right of law", restricting the basic human right to expression is a breach of fundamental liberty and an unconscienable use of coercive power.

Ander

30th June 2006, 06:13

Originally posted by s3rna+Jun 29 2006, 05:21 PM--> (s3rna @ Jun 29 2006, 05:21 PM)
[email protected] 29 2006, 05:21 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Clearly. [/b]
Yeah, nicely done. Way to defend against anything I said.

And thanks LSD, well said!

somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback

30th June 2006, 10:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 11:15 PM
:huh:

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Racism is a valid target of attack because of the nature of racism, not because the bourgeois state doesn't like it. It doesn't matter whether the government of Belgium locks up or looks up to racists, attacking racism would still be right.

And to claim that the "only" way to attack reaction is with bourgeois assistance is, quite frankly, insane.

Are you claiming that we have "no grounds whatsoever to do battle" with capitalism? Well, why not? After all, capitalists aren't being locked up!

Defending free speech does not mean defending what is spoken. It means opposing any attempt by coercive authority to extend itself into the realm of human discourse. We can knock down racist "arguments" well enough on our own. We don't need the state to "get our backs".
Sorry, I meant "no legal grounds", my bad.

Of course we should fight racism (and capitalism, obviously) in all its forms, and we should not need the state to "get our back", but within the current system there is no (legal) alternative than to prohibit the expression of racism.

Surely we can knock down racist arguments, but is that enough? Can we defeat them on our own? In this system? Well I'm sorry to say but us leftists in Belgium are seriously outnumbered by racists, let alone rightwingers in general. Unfortunate as it is, we have the power nor the capacity to be able to control racism, so we can use every help we can get. As it stands, that means the government making laws to forbid the expression of racist ideals. Were this not to be the case, foreign immigrants and non-white Belgians would be discriminated against and insulted even more so than is the case today. A majority (!) of Belgian companies would not hire "non-native" Belgians if it weren't for those laws !

So, for the time being, and until the revolution comes, I think these laws work just fine, as much as they interfere with my basic ideals. Call it a necessary evil if you must.

That statement is constructively flawed.

The only thing that "limits free speech" is limiting free speech. And whether it's a racist with a basebal bar or a bourgeois parliament with the "right of law", restricting the basic human right to expression is a breach of fundamental liberty and an unconscienable use of coercive power.

Is it really? They wouldn't hesitate a second to restrict your freedom of speech, and do much worse! They can't call upon the "freedom of speech" principle, as they would not even respect it themselves.

Should we just turn the other cheeck?

CubaSocialista

30th June 2006, 19:20

I whole-heartedly approve of "cracking down" on caucasophiles, negrophiles, mongolophiles, or any other "racialist" or "racial nationalist" groups, no matter what color, gender, or creed.

To draw such lines of distinction, and to divorce and seperate people on such primal, hardly relevant (if at all) lines is barbarism, criminal, and reactionary.

It's called sewing cultural disorder. If I had a say in it, I'd hang the bastards. They are of no worth to people in this day and age, where we must all work together as brothers if we even want to survive this next century, whose problems currently do not bode well for the coming years.

No room for them. Set aside some reservations for them, and let them rot in their "racial paradise" until they starve.

Vladislav

1st July 2006, 13:29

I don't see how that makes him sound like a Nazi? Could you explain? I don't see any distinct correlation between Nazism and protection of freedom of speech.

Okay. Fine. Let him/her say what he/she thinks.

Dude, don't you understand? I agree with you 100%, I am completely against racism and any kind of prejudice really. This doesn't mean that we should outlaw it and jail all those who express racist ideas, that sounds like a police state to me.

Racists, fascists, Nazi's...leave them be. Let them talk their shit and do whatever (as long as it does not harm anyone else) without consequence from the law. Eventually they will get what's coming to them, which will likely take the shape of a boot to the face.

It's great that you're against racism, but we cannot leave Nazis alone. They are the scum of the earth. They are walking shit. Take Russia for example. It is filled with Nazis who attack foreigners and then get away with it. There are so many Nazis there that it's just unfuckingbelievable. Those fuckers who attacked a 13 year old chinese girl a couple of months ago deserve to die. Same for those who attacked an African student outside a St Petersburg night club.

The idea of fascism must be destroyed.

So defending free speech makes one a "Nazi" now? Considering that the actual Nazis were rather legendary for their suppression of speech, that's a pretty bizarre statement to make.

Anyone who is arrested or jailed because of their political beliefs is a political prisoner, full stop. And supporting the "right" of the bourgeois state to hold political prisoners is intrinsically antirevolutionary.

Okay... I take it back.

Believe me, there will come a time when our speech will be labeled as "dangerous" or "offensive" and we will be jailed for expressing it. And unless we start fighting against legislative excesses now, it will be too late when our time comes.

Hasn't the time already come?

Don't make the mistake of believeing that the capitalists or their government ever act in our interests. They don't!

Never have, never will.

The way to fight racism is to fight racism, locking up racists doesn't discredit the "theory" behind it and only feeds into the oppression complex that defines modern racism.

I don't really understand you there.

May I ask why "Marx is right" is restricted?

LSD

2nd July 2006, 00:14

Surely we can knock down racist arguments, but is that enough?

Yes.

Racism can only be fought in the battlefield of ideas. No "law" or "code" will defeat it.

Racists, on the other hand, need to be fought in reality. But that fight needs to come from progressive working people, not from the bourgeois state acting "in their interests".

It would appear that you are approaching this issue from a liberal rather than revolutionary perspective. That is, you are accepting bourgeois legislation as potentially "democratic" or "representative" of the "Belgian people", when in reality it is nothing more than the coercive expression of the Belgian bourgeoisie.

The capitalists benefit by keeping racism in a sort of political "limbo". On the one hand, they want to keep racism alive as it helps to politically keep the working class divided, but on the other hand, they prefer that it not be expressed too loudly, as that could hurt their profit margins.

Capitalists want to hire minorites and hire racists and that requires racism to be "politically incorrect".

As revolutionaries, however, we don't want to keep capitalism's institutionalized racism "hidden", we want to expose it for all that it is! And that means opposing the capitalist states "measures" of preserving their racist "compromise" and fighting racists on our own terms.

As it stands, that means the government making laws to forbid the expression of racist ideals.

And what has this policy accomplished so far?

As evidenced by this recent case, racist thought isn't exactly "dissapearing" in Belgium and, in all likelyhood, this kind of "speech code" legislation has only driven the problem underground and fed into the white nationalist "persecution" complex.

Preventing racists from setting up websites does not make them stop being racists, it just makes them particularly embittered racists and, probably, makes them more likely to turn to violence.

A majority (!) of Belgian companies would not hire "non-native" Belgians if it weren't for those laws !

Bullshit.

There's a difference between legislating against racism in hiring practices and legislating against speech. The former being a perfectly justified "market hampring", whereas the latter is an unconscienable violation of fundamental rights.

What you're talking about is "afirmative action" progreams and "hiring neutrality" laws, something which has nothing to do with "speech codes" and/or political prisoners.

Employers do not have the "right" to only hire "who they want", indeed from a true fundamental rights perspective, employers have no rights in and of their position. As human beings, howeever, they have the right to say whatever the fuck they want.

And any attempt by the bourgeois state to enforce "morality" or "acceptability" codes unto public discourse is an intrinsically oppressive move which cannot be supported by any progressive leftists.

Is it really? They wouldn't hesitate a second to restrict your freedom of speech, and do much worse!

Therefore...?

Racists are racists, they're supposed to be the "bad guys", that doesn't mean that we have some sort of "obligation" to "respond in kind". It's like your proposing some sort of bizarre perversion of the "silver rule", you know "treat people the way they treat you..."

Well, that kind of idealist thinking does not actually help in real politics. The bourgeoisie and its governments are our enemy, granting them additional powers to deal with another of our enemies is suicidal.

Look, sometimes the "enemy of my enemy is my friend", but not always and certainly not when the enemy you're considering allying with is vastly more dangerous than the other!

Racists are a threat to minorites, no question, but the capitalists are a threat to all workers and bolstering the power of their institutions will only hurt us all in the long-run.

May I ask why "Marx is right" is restricted?

Originally posted by Marx_is_right
Im sick of communism. I want to change now.

red team

2nd July 2006, 00:42

Obviously, but both are still forms of speech and as such must be protected. Racism is a disgusting sentiment, but the way to defeat it is not to "silence" its proponents. "Hiding" reaction has never been the way to eliminate it and "addressing" racism by pretending that it doesn't exist is like treating cancer by not getting a biopsy.

The way to fight racism is to fight racism, locking up racists doesn't discredit the "theory" behind it and only feeds into the oppression complex that defines modern racism.

The only reason you can adopt such a position is that you presently have the luxury of adopting such a position. Racism is not dominant and wide-spread and is not in on the verge of becoming official state ideology. You still have the luxury and time of using reasoning to convince people that would listen to rational arguments and are not caught up in mass hysteria and hate. But for other countries that are not so fortunate things would most likely have to be settled on the streets.

LSD

2nd July 2006, 01:05

The only reason you can adopt such a position is that you presently have the luxury of adopting such a position. Racism is not dominant and wide-spread and is not in on the verge of becoming official state ideology.

What you're saying doesn't make sense.

If racism were "on the verge of becoming official state ideology" in Belgium, why is the Belgian state jailing racists?

Obviously, racism is still a minority belief, but one which is particularly useful to the government of Belgium and its capitalist masters. In "fighting it", they make themselves out to be progressive, while in reality, they expand their power to arrest and jail for crimes of "speech".

It doesn't matter whether the capitalists are embracing or "opposing" racists, they are always our enemy. And, incidently, even when they assume ostensibly "anti-racist" positions they are, again, doing it solely to further their own interests.

The bougeoisie benefits by keeping racism alive but "hidden", that way the proletariat stays divided by they can still employ and exploit minorities. As revolutionaries, we should seek to smash this "fragile balance" and to force the reality of capitalist institutional racism into the light of day.

But for other countries that are not so fortunate things would most likely have to be settled on the streets.

There's a difference between "settling it on the streets" and allowing the bourgeois state to "settle it for us".

Political prisoners are political prisoners. Whether we like what they have to say or not, supporting the "legitimacy" of bourgeois political arrests is ultimately suicidal.

We should support state policies that serve to combat capitalistic racism -- "affirmative action" and "neutral hiring" policies and the likes -- but we can never support the bourgeoisie claiming further "authority" over the working class.

Speech is a fundamental human right and a political nescessity for revolutionaries. We cannot give it up in the name of "political correctness!

Marx_was_right!

2nd July 2006, 14:06

Oh Vladislav! You said I was a NZAI, but who is it wants to lock people up? Tu!Thank you to others for defending me. And think Vlad, before you open your dumbass mouth again, if we lock up racists, soon they'll come for teh communists. Reactionary racists are the frind of the state remember. Communists wnat to smahs it however! So who will the bourgeoise think is the worse enemy?

And why do I feel i' the only revolutionary around here?

It doesn't matter whether the capitalists are embracing or "opposing" racists, they are always our enemy. And, incidently, even when they assume ostensibly "anti-racist" positions they are, again, doing it solely to further their own interests.
Capitalists are our frined. Mao said hundreds of years of capitalism are needed to more to communism. Lenin needed to take a step back to taka a leap forward right? Embrace capitsam! IF we tear down the state now, we'll just get dictatorship as the conditions are not right yet.

Vladislav

2nd July 2006, 14:47

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jul 2 2006, 11:07 AM
Oh Vladislav! You said I was a NZAI, but who is it wants to lock people up? Tu!Thank you to others for defending me. And think Vlad, before you open your dumbass mouth again, if we lock up racists, soon they'll come for teh communists. Reactionary racists are the frind of the state remember. Communists wnat to smahs it however! So who will the bourgeoise think is the worse enemy?

And why do I feel i' the only revolutionary around here?

It doesn't matter whether the capitalists are embracing or "opposing" racists, they are always our enemy. And, incidently, even when they assume ostensibly "anti-racist" positions they are, again, doing it solely to further their own interests.
Capitalists are our frined. Mao said hundreds of years of capitalism are needed to more to communism. Lenin needed to take a step back to taka a leap forward right? Embrace capitsam! IF we tear down the state now, we'll just get dictatorship as the conditions are not right yet.
Calm the fuck down.

Racists are nothing but shit. Those two deserved to be locked up. As LSD said they are political prisoners and political prisoners they will remain.

CubaSocialista

3rd July 2006, 06:45

Originally posted by Vladislav+Jul 2 2006, 11:48 AM--> (Vladislav @ Jul 2 2006, 11:48 AM)
Marx_was_right!@Jul 2 2006, 11:07 AM
Oh Vladislav! You said I was a NZAI, but who is it wants to lock people up? Tu!Thank you to others for defending me. And think Vlad, before you open your dumbass mouth again, if we lock up racists, soon they'll come for teh communists. Reactionary racists are the frind of the state remember. Communists wnat to smahs it however! So who will the bourgeoise think is the worse enemy?

And why do I feel i' the only revolutionary around here?

It doesn't matter whether the capitalists are embracing or "opposing" racists, they are always our enemy. And, incidently, even when they assume ostensibly "anti-racist" positions they are, again, doing it solely to further their own interests.
Capitalists are our frined. Mao said hundreds of years of capitalism are needed to more to communism. Lenin needed to take a step back to taka a leap forward right? Embrace capitsam! IF we tear down the state now, we'll just get dictatorship as the conditions are not right yet.
Calm the fuck down.

Racists are nothing but shit. Those two deserved to be locked up. As LSD said they are political prisoners and political prisoners they will remain. [/b]
Vlad. You heard the man. EMBRACE CAPITSAM!

Don't be stupid, be a smarty. Come and join the NZAI PARTY!

We wnat to smahs the state, remeber!!?

I love how, so often, juvenile dabblers in shallow "politics" find themselves able to make complex allegories and analyses of society after reading a couple of sentences on Marxist theory.

Zero

3rd July 2006, 06:56

Or those who are so patriotic it makes your head hurt. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKdZf1Nvujk&search=patriot)

An archist

3rd July 2006, 11:25

Hey LSD, just wanted to let you know: Belgium is a state wich is split in different parts, at the moment the Flemish (Dutch-speaking) part of the country has a right-wing, racist political party (the Vlaams Belang or Flemish Interest) that has about 24 percent (!) of the votes. This year we had a lot of news stories of violence: Two Polish kids stabbing a Belgian kid to death for his mp3, some skinheads beating up an African and his friend, a family member of the same right wing political party (an 18 year old) going out in the street and shooting a Turkish woman a Malinese au-pair and the Belgian 2 year old she was taking care off and more recently: a group of 'foreigners' beating up and killing a person on the bus.
After the guy killing people in the street at random, the Vlaams Belang was in a thight spot, but due to all the reports of violence and their stance on 'safety' they have a pretty big chance of winning most of the local elections in november.

So racism is on the verge of becoming an official state ideology.

dannie

3rd July 2006, 17:21

If racism were "on the verge of becoming official state ideology" in Belgium, why is the Belgian state jailing racists?

I'm not aware of how much you know about the Belgian government's (read: the major centre right/left) parties stance on racism and "het vb".
There is a unofficial treaty between the major political parties (groen, vld, sp.a, spirit, cd&v and n-va), where they decided they would not form a coalition with "het vb". Resulting in it's marginalising, wich in turn created a situation where they were an underdog and were able to comment on the governments malpractice and flaws. As an alternative they pushed for decreasing rights of immigrants, wom*n, holebisexuals, and other minority's claiming they are one of the causes of the decline of our welfare.
At the same time people started to get annoyed with the stupid way this country is run, a breeding ground for facists.
This resulted in the rise and rise of "het vb" to the point were our parties are splitting because a lot of our centre-right politicians are willing to co-operate with "het vb" and i believe in the local elections in novermber we will see a lot of city-councils with vb members in the coalition, paving the way for flamish, walloon, and federal vb'ers in the coalition.

It's vital for my and a lot of others life those facists can't rise to power overhere cause chances are, they are going to fuck things up big-time.

Obviously, racism is still a minority belief, but one which is particularly useful to the government of Belgium and its capitalist masters. In "fighting it", they make themselves out to be progressive, while in reality, they expand their power to arrest and jail for crimes of "speech".

I believe your analisys is partly correct. Our governments tries to make it look like it's progressive, and it's pretty damn good at it. But the fight against racism isn't one of the major theme's they use for this. It comes from more independent groups like Liga voor de mensenrechten, centrum voor gelijke kansen, and others. Our government tries to act progressive by how they handle ethics, gay marriage, euthanasia, drugs, ... but proves it is not by it's economic policy.