"Aslyum is tearing the UK apart" - anyone else see this.

[Hate Is Art]

I saw on the front page of the Sun the other day that "Asylum is tearing the UK apart" I didn't a chance to read it though. Did anyone and if so what was it about?

[mentalbunny]

Sorry no, but I want to declare war against Tabloids and that includes the Daily Mail. While The Independent has pics of bosses of big corporations who fuck things up and retire with bigpay packets, the Daily Mail has headlines like "The blueprint for tyranny- Tony Blair's plan for the Euro" and crap like that.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:11 pm on May 9, 2003
Sorry no, but I want to declare war against Tabloids and that includes the Daily Mail. While The Independent has pics of bosses of big corporations who fuck things up and retire with bigpay packets, the Daily Mail has headlines like "The blueprint for tyranny- Tony Blair's plan for the Euro" and crap like that.

The 'Independant' is not particularly independant when it blatently supports the Liberal Democrats. The Independant has numerous imperialistic, bourgeois, ruling class writers fabricating the news. The Daily Mail are similar, but far more vicious and racist. The Daily Mail used to support the British Union of Fascists....

The old Labour Party proposed withdrawal from the EU, I hope we do not join the Euro. I would explain more, but I have to go.

Asylum issue is highly surprising headline from the Sun considering they always toe the Labour line, did not read the article though.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 12:29 am on May 10, 2003)

[scott thesocialist]

why don't you people read the socialist worker or socialis voice they give you a true insight into everyday news from around the world

[mentalbunny]

Well the problem is, you have to read middle of the road news and analyse it yourself. There's something about reading left-wing newspapers that just doesn't really work for me, I stop thinking and just blindly believe, which is not how it should be.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 11:46 am on May 10, 2003
why don't you people read the socialist worker or socialis voice they give you a true insight into everyday news from around the world


Those newspapers are bourgoies newspapers too, they agree with things like the U.S./Nato intervention in Yugoslavia.

[Reuben]

with respect Socialist worker is the biggest ple of garbage to hve ever been printed. The Morning Star my be a little stalinist bt at least it has some news in rather than just picture and slogans

[Hate Is Art]

The Gaurdian is quite good, If you start to blindly believe stuff then you lose powere of thought and soon believe everything you read. Ok that maybe a little OTT but i hope you see what i mean.

[Kez]

where does your ability to analyse middle of the road newspapers come from when you dont read any socialist theory anyway? You cant just make shit up on the spot.

Im with Reuben here in that the Socialist Worker is a load of bullshit. They arent even for revolution, but reform, fuck em. There have been suspicions that they are an MI5 tool anyway. Would explain why the SWP in a demo with a megaphone didnt thank the crowd when i told him to. Wheres my crowbar.....

[mentalbunny]

Fair enough Kamo, but I can still analyse to a certain extent, there is such thing as brain you know!

[Cassius Clay]

On the orginall topic. Does this really surprise you? It's Capitalism using it's last reactionary tool of Fascism. It's disgusting not only is this sought of stuff breeding rascism and dividing the people it smacks of hyprocisy. When there's a race riot and someone dies the Sun will declare a day of mourning and ask it's readers to buy it's 'Exclusive' of a inteview with the young Asian mans mother. Just like when these papers show young girls topless one day and the next day declare that all perverts should be exterminated.

But in a strange way this is encouranging. Rupert Murdoch and co no that the people are disconteted and are angry, they are trying to direct this anger and discontent at people who are are comrades. They won't fall me for one.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 10:23 am on May 11, 2003
where does your ability to analyse middle of the road newspapers come from when you dont read any socialist theory anyway? You cant just make shit up on the spot.

Im with Reuben here in that the Socialist Worker is a load of bullshit. They arent even for revolution, but reform, fuck em. There have been suspicions that they are an MI5 tool anyway. Would explain why the SWP in a demo with a megaphone didnt thank the crowd when i told him to. Wheres my crowbar.....


The SWP are a collection of bourgeois degenarates who want higher wages and fewer working hours, a 35 hour week and so on. Some SWP here physically attacked a some true Marxist-Leninists for opposing the U.S./Nato intervention in Yugoslavia.

mentalbunny, I don't think Kamo was talking to you.

[mentalbunny]

No, Mao, it was directed to me, because as yet I haven't really had the time or resources to read any. And kamo knows I haven't read any.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 5:45 pm on May 11, 2003
No, Mao, it was directed to me, because as yet I haven't really had the time or resources to read any. And kamo knows I haven't read any.

Ok, well you don't make shit up on the spot. Or at least if you do its far less than some people who may not have read socialist theory. A lot of the left-wing newspapers such as Morning Star and so on are fro the same audience that read tabloids such as The Sun or Mirror, this is why their opinions may not seem to make you think.

[Dhul Fiqar]

This is what she was talking about, a simple google search would have helped more than some of this arguing about lies in the media, although that's certainly a relevant discussion for the right time and place:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/...sp?story=404199 (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=404199)

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 2:48 pm on May

Those newspapers are bourgoies newspapers too, they agree with things like the U.S./Nato intervention in Yugoslavia.


Please, spare me.

[YKTMX]

Fucking typical stalinist piss, oh boo-hoo, the SWP did this, the SWP said that.

1. The SWP is the biggest REVOLUTIONARY group in the UK with over ten thousand members so they must be doing something right

2. The SWP did not support the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, anybody who says they did are talking nonsense.

3. I invite any of you people disputing these things to come to marxism 03' in London this year.

[Jackmond]

well erm, i haven't got the oppurtunity yet to get hold of leftist newspapers, and i'm stuck with a right wing family. I'm 14 and really don't know much at all about this so I'm not going to pretend i do. I would just like to know how i could get hold of Leftist newspapers.
Thank you.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from YouKnowTheyMurderedX on 6:09 pm on May 11, 2003
Fucking typical stalinist piss, oh boo-hoo, the SWP did this, the SWP said that.

1. The SWP is the biggest REVOLUTIONARY group in the UK with over ten thousand members so they must be doing something right

2. The SWP did not support the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, anybody who says they did are talking nonsense.

3. I invite any of you people disputing these things to come to marxism 03' in London this year.

Over 10,000 members who think like bourgeois capitalists is not particularly useful. They are Trotskyites...

SWP: 'we condemn President Milosevic’s dirty war in Kosovo'

The young men who constituted the army in Kosovo were ready and willing to defend their country against the predatory imperialists are seemingly belittled by the SWP who saw fit to celebrate the reservist desertions in its Socialist Worker, celebrating the desertion of soldiers from a force fighting imperialism. "Those demonstrating in Serbia are showing opposition to the war in the most terrible of conditions," Socialist Worker admired; "Many reports indicate the protestors are against the NATO bombing and against President Slobodan Milosevic".

The SWP claim to be against the bombing, however they also oppose those fighting imperialism. It demonstrates their liberal bourgeois attitude.

I am not a 'fucking typical stalinist piss'. I will not insult you since if I ever saw you, you and your gang of Trotskyite thugs would probably see fit to dismember me and leave me lying in a ditch.

The SWP does have a great worth ethic though, I do commend them on that. I would love a 35 hour week, whats the point of work? we should let out country degenarate into an economic misery instead of constructing an independant, strong socialist nation.

I would come to "Marxism 03'" unfortunately i'd rather go to the Conservative Party Conference since it will be more revolutionary.

You advocated the U.S. movements into the region and the expansion of its market system. There is no anti-imperialist stand in the SWP. I am sure you would too advocate imperialist attack on People's Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe and so on.

The reason is because you mix bourgeois ideals of heterogenous society, pluralistic elitism and free market economy. The reason SWP is so big is because it exists in an almost absolutely bourgeois dominated society.

How can we trust the SWP when they deny national-self determination, what is a worker's movement unless it wants to free itself and all others from imperialism.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 6:44 pm on May 11, 2003)

[YKTMX]

I can' believe that in this day and age "trotskyite" is stilll considered an insult among members of the so called "left". The SWP is actually a marxist-leninist party, although we obviously understand Trotskys brilliant contribution to the socialist tradition (something that can't be said for Chairman Mao). Our opposition to the NATO war was based on a simple point of opposition to war and imperialism. Oh, and presumably your basis for calling members "bourgeois" is because you have met/spoke to a alot/any members?

[mentalbunny]

If I can interuppt your heated discussion Mao and YKTMX, Dhul, I don't understand what you are talking about, could you explain? I'm lost...

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from YouKnowTheyMurderedX on 7:04 pm on May 11, 2003
I can' believe that in this day and age "trotskyite" is stilll considered an insult among members of the so called "left". The SWP is actually a marxist-leninist party, although we obviously understand Trotskys brilliant contribution to the socialist tradition (something that can't be said for Chairman Mao). Our opposition to the NATO war was based on a simple point of opposition to war and imperialism. Oh, and presumably your basis for calling members "bourgeois" is because you have met/spoke to a alot/any members?


Yes, however, you still did not support the sovereignty of Yugoslavia and the regime and independant policies of Slobodan Milosevic. And oppose the forces fighting U.S. imperialism.

Trotksy has been discussed many times on this board. I have met and spoke to Trotskyites from various parties, from the SWP to the Socialist Party. I have also spoken to members of the SLP, CPB and so on.

It doesn't matter, we disagree profoundly. Not worth arguing, but I am not ignorant on this whole subject as it seems you are suggesting.

[Reuben]

roflmao i love the wa the swp try and inspirenew members by telling them tht they are a huige revolutionary grop of over ten thousand an how reovlution is just round the corner and all we need is one more lealet to make it happen. Their not that good with figures, something also reflectied in the way they report demonstations. Seriosuly if you wanna get an accurate figure for any demo you need to average out the police figure and the figure that appears in socilaist worker

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 9:55 pm on May 11, 2003

Quote: from YouKnowTheyMurderedX on 7:04 pm on May 11, 2003
I can' believe that in this day and age "trotskyite" is stilll considered an insult among members of the so called "left". The SWP is actually a marxist-leninist party, although we obviously understand Trotskys brilliant contribution to the socialist tradition (something that can't be said for Chairman Mao). Our opposition to the NATO war was based on a simple point of opposition to war and imperialism. Oh, and presumably your basis for calling members "bourgeois" is because you have met/spoke to a alot/any members?


Yes, however, you still did not support the sovereignty of Yugoslavia and the regime and independant policies of Slobodan Milosevic. And oppose the forces fighting U.S. imperialism.

Trotksy has been discussed many times on this board. I have met and spoke to Trotskyites from various parties, from the SWP to the Socialist Party. I have also spoken to members of the SLP, CPB and so on.

It doesn't matter, we disagree profoundly. Not worth arguing, but I am not ignorant on this whole subject as it seems you are suggesting.


I'm not sure that we can be criticised for not supoorting serbian nationalists but there you go.

[scott thesocialist]

yes i'll be in london on july4th -11th with my brothers and sisters and while you continue to argue don't you see all left/rightwing papers are from a certain point of view so in fact no one is right or wrong it just depends on your beliefs, is anyone going to evian?

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 5:37 am on May 12, 2003
If I can interuppt your heated discussion Mao and YKTMX, Dhul, I don't understand what you are talking about, could you explain? I'm lost...


A question was asked about what the headline was about, I linked to an article on the issue it was about. K? :)

--- G.

[Wolfie]

im just back from a week back in Zim to see my uncle, and its worse than ever, i was goin to start a thread on it but its easier this way. From my experience the center to left media in this country (UK) tell the most truth than the right. and im not just saying that. People were killed in Harare and Bula anf the times tries dumming it down on page 3 because, to them a suspected sight of Sadders is more important than minor genocide, the independant and the guardian both had it on their front pages "300 dead or injured after zimbabwe govt uses cloud of war to strike". When I was born in Bula Maugabe had already been in power for about 10 years, i wouldnt mind if he didnt send out hit squads and mess up the economy to make the zim$ worth less than the zambian kwatcha in a matter of months! oh and another thing. Be very wary of what mr Mugabe is saying about his abdication.

[Saint-Just]

I'm not sure that we can be criticised for not supoorting serbian nationalists but there you go.


They are not just patriots, they opposed the will of the IMF and U.S. imperialism, they had nationalised banks against the will of the IMF and would not accept the policies the World Bank wanted to impose on them. Slobodan Milosevic tried to maintain unity in the sovereign state that had been in existence 50 years. However the imperialist aggressors pried the country apart. This is why some see it as wrong to oppose Slobodan Milosevic, a man voted in by his people and then illegitemately overthrown by the U.S.

[YKTMX]

They are not just patriots, they opposed the will of the IMF and U.S. imperialism, they had nationalised banks against the will of the IMF and would not accept the policies the World Bank wanted to impose on them. Slobodan Milosevic tried to maintain unity in the sovereign state that had been in existence 50 years. However the imperialist aggressors pried the country apart. This is why some see it as wrong to oppose Slobodan Milosevic, a man voted in by his people and then illegitemately overthrown by the U.S.

Overthrown by the U.S? I think you'll find it was a revolution by the Serbian people that got rid of Milosevic.

[Saint-Just]

Overthrown by the U.S? I think you'll find it was a revolution by the Serbian people that got rid of Milosevic.



An uprising that smacks of imperialism.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 7:12 pm on May 12, 2003



Overthrown by the U.S? I think you'll find it was a revolution by the Serbian people that got rid of Milosevic.



An uprising that smacks of imperialism.

Haha, that's a new one

An imperialist revolution!

[Cassius Clay]

Hmm.

You are right Chairman Mao to say that the only reason the U$ and their European allies got involved was because Milosevich refused to bow before the IMF. For that I give him credit, but he was a Nationalist and allways will be. Your also right to detect the hint of the Imperialism in that so called 'Uprising' (just a note the Yugoslav parliament disagreed with Milosevich plenty a time and he accepted his election result faster than George W. Bush).

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I'll point out that Socialism had never really been established in 'Yugoslavia', not even in the 50's. It was allways ran by nationalists, revisionists and corrupt mafia's.

But who has replaced Milosevich? A equally bad Serb nationalist who is pro-monarchy and has become a puppet of the IMF. So much for 'Democracy'.

One last thing under no circumstances must the bombing of Yugoslavia of been supported. If the SWP did this, well it just goes to show Trotskyisms betrayal. No surprise there.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 8:15 pm on May 12, 2003
One last thing under no circumstances must the bombing of Yugoslavia of been supported. If the SWP did this, well it just goes to show Trotskyisms betrayal. No surprise there.





Ofcourse they didn't. Anyone who even suggests that is lying/an idiot.

[Reuben]

what are you doing on here anyway YKTMX

Given the faction you are part of it is likely you believe that Che was a pseudo-revolutionar who brought about a state-capitalist siezure of power (LOL about the state capitalism theory)

And with regard to yor name who are you saying murdered X. ou know it may well have been the ultra-reactionary raciallist NOI

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Reuben on 12:00 am on May 13, 2003
what are you doing on here anyway YKTMX

Given the faction you are part of it is likely you believe that Che was a pseudo-revolutionar who brought about a state-capitalist siezure of power (LOL about the state capitalism theory)

And with regard to yor name who are you saying murdered X. ou know it may well have been the ultra-reactionary raciallist NOI

No, I think Che was a brilliant revolutionary, who ultimately failed in terms of bringing about socialism.

And I think the CIA murdered Malcolm X, using the Nation as some sort of cover.

[mentalbunny]

Thanks Dhul! I was really confused...