Atrocities In Gaza

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 21 2006, 04:04 PM
since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?
Israel fired the rockets. :angry:

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 21 2006, 04:04 PM
since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?
Israel fired the rockets. :angry:

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 21 2006, 04:04 PM
since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?
Israel fired the rockets. :angry:

[Loknar]

Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.

Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.

[Loknar]

Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.

Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.

[Loknar]

Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.

Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.

[TC]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 21 2006, 10:04 PM
since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?
What a stupid question, how could Hamas possibly be to blame, the IDF did it.


Apart from that, the Israeli government and Zionists and their occupation is responsible for all violence on all sides.

[TC]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 21 2006, 10:04 PM
since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?
What a stupid question, how could Hamas possibly be to blame, the IDF did it.


Apart from that, the Israeli government and Zionists and their occupation is responsible for all violence on all sides.

[TC]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 21 2006, 10:04 PM
since a little girl's family was killed on a gaza beach, i was curious to know whether people here think hamas was to blame or israel?
What a stupid question, how could Hamas possibly be to blame, the IDF did it.


Apart from that, the Israeli government and Zionists and their occupation is responsible for all violence on all sides.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.

Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.
You know why they dont have money? because israel holds back tax payments the palestinians deserver, because the international community only likes democracy if the people happen to choose the right party (if not they cut of aid) and only the fact the the palestinians kicked out the fatah because they happened to be corrupted to death is enough to cut off all finances. The palestians are not allowed to have their own state, but on the other hand we dont take responsibilty for the people there.

If the international community keeps this course the palistine government will break down, and there is going to be lots more terrorist attacks because those people will have NOTHING AT ALL TO LOOSE. great.


Israel leaves

is pure bullshit, they leave where they want it, and build a fence that cuts of whole villages from the rest of palestine. also they keep raiding palestinian territory for "terrorists" even attack their prisons. sorry but if any country in the world lost 80% of its income and foreign troops act on their soil all the time, it will either fight the other country or fall apart. i guess in this case its the later because even though israel is an imperialist state, its OUR imperialist state so np

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.

Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.
You know why they dont have money? because israel holds back tax payments the palestinians deserver, because the international community only likes democracy if the people happen to choose the right party (if not they cut of aid) and only the fact the the palestinians kicked out the fatah because they happened to be corrupted to death is enough to cut off all finances. The palestians are not allowed to have their own state, but on the other hand we dont take responsibilty for the people there.

If the international community keeps this course the palistine government will break down, and there is going to be lots more terrorist attacks because those people will have NOTHING AT ALL TO LOOSE. great.


Israel leaves

is pure bullshit, they leave where they want it, and build a fence that cuts of whole villages from the rest of palestine. also they keep raiding palestinian territory for "terrorists" even attack their prisons. sorry but if any country in the world lost 80% of its income and foreign troops act on their soil all the time, it will either fight the other country or fall apart. i guess in this case its the later because even though israel is an imperialist state, its OUR imperialist state so np

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.

Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.
You know why they dont have money? because israel holds back tax payments the palestinians deserver, because the international community only likes democracy if the people happen to choose the right party (if not they cut of aid) and only the fact the the palestinians kicked out the fatah because they happened to be corrupted to death is enough to cut off all finances. The palestians are not allowed to have their own state, but on the other hand we dont take responsibilty for the people there.

If the international community keeps this course the palistine government will break down, and there is going to be lots more terrorist attacks because those people will have NOTHING AT ALL TO LOOSE. great.


Israel leaves

is pure bullshit, they leave where they want it, and build a fence that cuts of whole villages from the rest of palestine. also they keep raiding palestinian territory for "terrorists" even attack their prisons. sorry but if any country in the world lost 80% of its income and foreign troops act on their soil all the time, it will either fight the other country or fall apart. i guess in this case its the later because even though israel is an imperialist state, its OUR imperialist state so np

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.
That is what happens when the international community and the Israelis start to starve the Palestinians into submission after they exercise the democratic rights that Washington apparently protects and wishes to spread.

I'm sure Dov Weissglas will share some more sick jokes with Zionist idiots like you about the suffering of innocent Palestinian people.


Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

The illegal Israeli occupation has not ended.


Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.

Your ignorance is astounding.

Israel kills three more Palestinian children... (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4830.shtml)

:angry:

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.
That is what happens when the international community and the Israelis start to starve the Palestinians into submission after they exercise the democratic rights that Washington apparently protects and wishes to spread.

I'm sure Dov Weissglas will share some more sick jokes with Zionist idiots like you about the suffering of innocent Palestinian people.


Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

The illegal Israeli occupation has not ended.


Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.

Your ignorance is astounding.

Israel kills three more Palestinian children... (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4830.shtml)

:angry:

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Look at the biger picture. Fatah raiding Parliment...Hamas cant pay the salaries of governmet employees...its turning into a civil war.
That is what happens when the international community and the Israelis start to starve the Palestinians into submission after they exercise the democratic rights that Washington apparently protects and wishes to spread.

I'm sure Dov Weissglas will share some more sick jokes with Zionist idiots like you about the suffering of innocent Palestinian people.


Good going Palestine. Israel leaves and you're really showing the world how good you can govern your selves.

The illegal Israeli occupation has not ended.


Seriousily...pack your shit and move to Jordan.

Your ignorance is astounding.

Israel kills three more Palestinian children... (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4830.shtml)

:angry:

[theraven]

1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn

2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.

[theraven]

1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn

2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.

[theraven]

1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn

2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.

[CubaSocialista]

This issue gnaws at me, because,

I can't tell who's right and wrong, often. I can't justify what both sides do. I often find myself willing to literally kill the West Bank and Gaza Settlers, but are Palestinian fanatics who are just as determined to murder Jews any better? (I do recognize that these two subgroups are minorities in their respective nations, but they are the most "vocal" and infamous.)

I'll admit, I'm from the Jewish ethnicity. I was Bar Mitzvahed, the whole lame ass thing. Not once in any synagogue was Israel questioned. Not once was there a question of the extent of zionism and the policies of Sharon. This was years ago (2000-2001) but it still angers me.

The "Jewish" State, claiming to be representative of my ethnicity, commits its actions in that name, so that criticism is immediately racist. often, however, my comrades use phrases where if "zionist" were replaced by jews, it would sound like Aryan Nations...

the Jewish state makes money and good PR off of the tragic holocaust, using death to justify MORE death. in its actions, claiming to represent world Jewry, it brings the wrath of some of the more ignorant on the world unto ALL JEWS.

which is not fair or just in any manner.

[CubaSocialista]

This issue gnaws at me, because,

I can't tell who's right and wrong, often. I can't justify what both sides do. I often find myself willing to literally kill the West Bank and Gaza Settlers, but are Palestinian fanatics who are just as determined to murder Jews any better? (I do recognize that these two subgroups are minorities in their respective nations, but they are the most "vocal" and infamous.)

I'll admit, I'm from the Jewish ethnicity. I was Bar Mitzvahed, the whole lame ass thing. Not once in any synagogue was Israel questioned. Not once was there a question of the extent of zionism and the policies of Sharon. This was years ago (2000-2001) but it still angers me.

The "Jewish" State, claiming to be representative of my ethnicity, commits its actions in that name, so that criticism is immediately racist. often, however, my comrades use phrases where if "zionist" were replaced by jews, it would sound like Aryan Nations...

the Jewish state makes money and good PR off of the tragic holocaust, using death to justify MORE death. in its actions, claiming to represent world Jewry, it brings the wrath of some of the more ignorant on the world unto ALL JEWS.

which is not fair or just in any manner.

[CubaSocialista]

This issue gnaws at me, because,

I can't tell who's right and wrong, often. I can't justify what both sides do. I often find myself willing to literally kill the West Bank and Gaza Settlers, but are Palestinian fanatics who are just as determined to murder Jews any better? (I do recognize that these two subgroups are minorities in their respective nations, but they are the most "vocal" and infamous.)

I'll admit, I'm from the Jewish ethnicity. I was Bar Mitzvahed, the whole lame ass thing. Not once in any synagogue was Israel questioned. Not once was there a question of the extent of zionism and the policies of Sharon. This was years ago (2000-2001) but it still angers me.

The "Jewish" State, claiming to be representative of my ethnicity, commits its actions in that name, so that criticism is immediately racist. often, however, my comrades use phrases where if "zionist" were replaced by jews, it would sound like Aryan Nations...

the Jewish state makes money and good PR off of the tragic holocaust, using death to justify MORE death. in its actions, claiming to represent world Jewry, it brings the wrath of some of the more ignorant on the world unto ALL JEWS.

which is not fair or just in any manner.

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:02 PM
1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn

2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.
The first two: you have a point.
The third: so Isreal can invade and occupy Palestinian territory and Palestinians have no right to react? Isreal can build walls and hold back taxes from Palestinians meant for the Palestinian government? (I wonder where that money goes)

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:02 PM
1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn

2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.
The first two: you have a point.
The third: so Isreal can invade and occupy Palestinian territory and Palestinians have no right to react? Isreal can build walls and hold back taxes from Palestinians meant for the Palestinian government? (I wonder where that money goes)

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:02 PM
1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn

2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.
The first two: you have a point.
The third: so Isreal can invade and occupy Palestinian territory and Palestinians have no right to react? Isreal can build walls and hold back taxes from Palestinians meant for the Palestinian government? (I wonder where that money goes)

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:02 PM
1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn
Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.

Moreover, even if the excuse is true, maybe the Israelis should not be so myopic about the confict and realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is going to provoke Palestinians into retaliating/resisting.

In other words, the best solution to "Palestinian terrorism" is for Israel to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.


2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

An independent UN investigation would be better than an Israeli cover-up.

Anyway, human rights groups, such as HRW (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5104010.stm), have already stated that the killings were indeed the result of the firing of Israeli artillery, and Kofi Annan found the Israeli findings as unbelievable and "strange".

Furthermore, the same day Israel issued their cover-up, ten more innocent Palestinians were killed in Gaza City, two of whom were school children.


3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.

Punishing the Palestinian people for exercising their democratic rights is unacceptable.

In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.

Indeed, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas has declared that they will halt their armed conflict with Israel as soon as the Israelis respected their international obligations by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recognising the 1967 borders, as well as allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.

Of course, that proposition is incompatible with the Zionist project, and is why their will be no peace any time soon. The Israelis do not want a viable Palestinian state to be formed at all.

Moreover, Hamas has kept a truce with Israel for more than a year.

The demand that Israel recognise Palestinian rights must be made alongside any demand that Hamas recognise Israel.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:02 PM
1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn
Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.

Moreover, even if the excuse is true, maybe the Israelis should not be so myopic about the confict and realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is going to provoke Palestinians into retaliating/resisting.

In other words, the best solution to "Palestinian terrorism" is for Israel to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.


2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

An independent UN investigation would be better than an Israeli cover-up.

Anyway, human rights groups, such as HRW (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5104010.stm), have already stated that the killings were indeed the result of the firing of Israeli artillery, and Kofi Annan found the Israeli findings as unbelievable and "strange".

Furthermore, the same day Israel issued their cover-up, ten more innocent Palestinians were killed in Gaza City, two of whom were school children.


3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.

Punishing the Palestinian people for exercising their democratic rights is unacceptable.

In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.

Indeed, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas has declared that they will halt their armed conflict with Israel as soon as the Israelis respected their international obligations by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recognising the 1967 borders, as well as allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.

Of course, that proposition is incompatible with the Zionist project, and is why their will be no peace any time soon. The Israelis do not want a viable Palestinian state to be formed at all.

Moreover, Hamas has kept a truce with Israel for more than a year.

The demand that Israel recognise Palestinian rights must be made alongside any demand that Hamas recognise Israel.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:02 PM
1)Israel was aiming a at rocket launch sites, which the terroirsts purposly put in highly populace areas so that this sort of htings happenn
Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.

Moreover, even if the excuse is true, maybe the Israelis should not be so myopic about the confict and realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is going to provoke Palestinians into retaliating/resisting.

In other words, the best solution to "Palestinian terrorism" is for Israel to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.


2) the arab palestianins did not let the israelis investiage at the incident sight, and they let other (pro palesitnain) observers do it only several days after the incident occured

An independent UN investigation would be better than an Israeli cover-up.

Anyway, human rights groups, such as HRW (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5104010.stm), have already stated that the killings were indeed the result of the firing of Israeli artillery, and Kofi Annan found the Israeli findings as unbelievable and "strange".

Furthermore, the same day Israel issued their cover-up, ten more innocent Palestinians were killed in Gaza City, two of whom were school children.


3) Israel is not giving moeny to the hamas govenrmet because hamas is commited to israels desctrucion. no state can give money to such a government.

Punishing the Palestinian people for exercising their democratic rights is unacceptable.

In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.

Indeed, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas has declared that they will halt their armed conflict with Israel as soon as the Israelis respected their international obligations by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recognising the 1967 borders, as well as allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.

Of course, that proposition is incompatible with the Zionist project, and is why their will be no peace any time soon. The Israelis do not want a viable Palestinian state to be formed at all.

Moreover, Hamas has kept a truce with Israel for more than a year.

The demand that Israel recognise Palestinian rights must be made alongside any demand that Hamas recognise Israel.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 23 2006, 07:26 AM
The first two: you have a point.
no, he doesn't.

1) considering that the gaza strip is the 6th most populated area in the world with 3823 people per square kilometre, anywhere israel fire is going to highly populated.

and guess who's responsible for herding palestinians into the gaza strip (and the west bank) in the first place? :rolleyes:

2) see - intifada's post.

you can't be pro-palestine and seriously consider his points to be valid arguments.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 23 2006, 07:26 AM
The first two: you have a point.
no, he doesn't.

1) considering that the gaza strip is the 6th most populated area in the world with 3823 people per square kilometre, anywhere israel fire is going to highly populated.

and guess who's responsible for herding palestinians into the gaza strip (and the west bank) in the first place? :rolleyes:

2) see - intifada's post.

you can't be pro-palestine and seriously consider his points to be valid arguments.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 23 2006, 07:26 AM
The first two: you have a point.
no, he doesn't.

1) considering that the gaza strip is the 6th most populated area in the world with 3823 people per square kilometre, anywhere israel fire is going to highly populated.

and guess who's responsible for herding palestinians into the gaza strip (and the west bank) in the first place? :rolleyes:

2) see - intifada's post.

you can't be pro-palestine and seriously consider his points to be valid arguments.

[theraven]

Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.

Moreover, even if the excuse is true, maybe the Israelis should not be so myopic about the confict and realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is going to provoke Palestinians into retaliating/resisting.

In other words, the best solution to "Palestinian terrorism" is for Israel to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come. and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.


n independent UN investigation would be better than an Israeli cover-up.

Anyway, human rights groups, such as HRW, have already stated that the killings were indeed the result of the firing of Israeli artillery, and Kofi Annan found the Israeli findings as unbelievable and "strange".

Furthermore, the same day Israel issued their cover-up, ten more innocent Palestinians were killed in Gaza City, two of whom were school children.


Ya the un :haha: HRW, the george soros funded propagand amcahine, that went in 3 days AFTER the incident (not like their could be tampering or anytihng).



Punishing the Palestinian people for exercising their democratic rights is unacceptable.

withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.
In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.


Indeed, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas has declared that they will halt their armed conflict with Israel as soon as the Israelis respected their international obligations by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recognising the 1967 borders, as well as allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.
translation:

"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."

Of course, that proposition is incompatible with the Zionist project, and is why their will be no peace any time soon. The Israelis do not want a viable Palestinian state to be formed at all.

Moreover, Hamas has kept a truce with Israel for more than a year.

The demand that Israel recognise Palestinian rights must be made alongside any demand that Hamas recognise Israel.

Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

[theraven]

Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.

Moreover, even if the excuse is true, maybe the Israelis should not be so myopic about the confict and realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is going to provoke Palestinians into retaliating/resisting.

In other words, the best solution to "Palestinian terrorism" is for Israel to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come. and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.


n independent UN investigation would be better than an Israeli cover-up.

Anyway, human rights groups, such as HRW, have already stated that the killings were indeed the result of the firing of Israeli artillery, and Kofi Annan found the Israeli findings as unbelievable and "strange".

Furthermore, the same day Israel issued their cover-up, ten more innocent Palestinians were killed in Gaza City, two of whom were school children.


Ya the un :haha: HRW, the george soros funded propagand amcahine, that went in 3 days AFTER the incident (not like their could be tampering or anytihng).



Punishing the Palestinian people for exercising their democratic rights is unacceptable.

withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.
In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.


Indeed, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas has declared that they will halt their armed conflict with Israel as soon as the Israelis respected their international obligations by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recognising the 1967 borders, as well as allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.
translation:

"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."

Of course, that proposition is incompatible with the Zionist project, and is why their will be no peace any time soon. The Israelis do not want a viable Palestinian state to be formed at all.

Moreover, Hamas has kept a truce with Israel for more than a year.

The demand that Israel recognise Palestinian rights must be made alongside any demand that Hamas recognise Israel.

Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

[theraven]

Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.

Moreover, even if the excuse is true, maybe the Israelis should not be so myopic about the confict and realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is going to provoke Palestinians into retaliating/resisting.

In other words, the best solution to "Palestinian terrorism" is for Israel to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come. and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.


n independent UN investigation would be better than an Israeli cover-up.

Anyway, human rights groups, such as HRW, have already stated that the killings were indeed the result of the firing of Israeli artillery, and Kofi Annan found the Israeli findings as unbelievable and "strange".

Furthermore, the same day Israel issued their cover-up, ten more innocent Palestinians were killed in Gaza City, two of whom were school children.


Ya the un :haha: HRW, the george soros funded propagand amcahine, that went in 3 days AFTER the incident (not like their could be tampering or anytihng).



Punishing the Palestinian people for exercising their democratic rights is unacceptable.

withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.
In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.


Indeed, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas has declared that they will halt their armed conflict with Israel as soon as the Israelis respected their international obligations by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recognising the 1967 borders, as well as allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.
translation:

"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."

Of course, that proposition is incompatible with the Zionist project, and is why their will be no peace any time soon. The Israelis do not want a viable Palestinian state to be formed at all.

Moreover, Hamas has kept a truce with Israel for more than a year.

The demand that Israel recognise Palestinian rights must be made alongside any demand that Hamas recognise Israel.

Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

[Loknar]

You know why they dont have money? because israel holds back tax payments the palestinians deserver, because the international community only likes democracy if the people happen to choose the right party

Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation. Hamas is a political party with a military wing. History has taught us that such political parties are nothing but trouble.

[Loknar]

You know why they dont have money? because israel holds back tax payments the palestinians deserver, because the international community only likes democracy if the people happen to choose the right party

Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation. Hamas is a political party with a military wing. History has taught us that such political parties are nothing but trouble.

[Loknar]

You know why they dont have money? because israel holds back tax payments the palestinians deserver, because the international community only likes democracy if the people happen to choose the right party

Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation. Hamas is a political party with a military wing. History has taught us that such political parties are nothing but trouble.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation. Hamas is a political party with a military wing. History has taught us that such political parties are nothing but trouble.
First of all your recognised the two different organisations, great. so why do you declare them one terrorist organisation? they aren't. the money goes to social programs, health care etc. SO holding back the money is plain STUPID, nicely you ignored my argument so i will say it again, if the hamas government breaks down, the war will really beginn again. people there are starving why should they NOT blow themselves up? if you know you cant live anymore you have nothing to loose and even you should see that this is not good.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come. and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.
Bullshit, yes they removed the settlers from gaza, but everybody is talking here about the borders of 67 (http://www.arij.org/atlas/maps/Agricultural%20Land%2..).
The "security fence" israel build up does not only violate this border, it cute of whole villages from the outside... i really hate saying things over so please next time read the posts before you answer.



withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.
Its not only about aid its also about the taxes the palestinian government deserves


In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.
Its isreal who doesnt want to negotiate, Hamas announced many times they are ready for peace.


"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."
yes and the palestinians have lots of reason to trust the israelis. btw you tend to forget who is the invader here.



Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation. Hamas is a political party with a military wing. History has taught us that such political parties are nothing but trouble.
First of all your recognised the two different organisations, great. so why do you declare them one terrorist organisation? they aren't. the money goes to social programs, health care etc. SO holding back the money is plain STUPID, nicely you ignored my argument so i will say it again, if the hamas government breaks down, the war will really beginn again. people there are starving why should they NOT blow themselves up? if you know you cant live anymore you have nothing to loose and even you should see that this is not good.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come. and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.
Bullshit, yes they removed the settlers from gaza, but everybody is talking here about the borders of 67 (http://www.arij.org/atlas/maps/Agricultural%20Land%2..).
The "security fence" israel build up does not only violate this border, it cute of whole villages from the outside... i really hate saying things over so please next time read the posts before you answer.



withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.
Its not only about aid its also about the taxes the palestinian government deserves


In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.
Its isreal who doesnt want to negotiate, Hamas announced many times they are ready for peace.


"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."
yes and the palestinians have lots of reason to trust the israelis. btw you tend to forget who is the invader here.



Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation. Hamas is a political party with a military wing. History has taught us that such political parties are nothing but trouble.
First of all your recognised the two different organisations, great. so why do you declare them one terrorist organisation? they aren't. the money goes to social programs, health care etc. SO holding back the money is plain STUPID, nicely you ignored my argument so i will say it again, if the hamas government breaks down, the war will really beginn again. people there are starving why should they NOT blow themselves up? if you know you cant live anymore you have nothing to loose and even you should see that this is not good.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come. and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.
Bullshit, yes they removed the settlers from gaza, but everybody is talking here about the borders of 67 (http://www.arij.org/atlas/maps/Agricultural%20Land%2..).
The "security fence" israel build up does not only violate this border, it cute of whole villages from the outside... i really hate saying things over so please next time read the posts before you answer.



withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.
Its not only about aid its also about the taxes the palestinian government deserves


In the run-up to the election, Hamas left out any reference to the call in the group's founding charter for the destruction of the Jewish state.
Its isreal who doesnt want to negotiate, Hamas announced many times they are ready for peace.


"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."
yes and the palestinians have lots of reason to trust the israelis. btw you tend to forget who is the invader here.



Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

[Osman Ghazi]

Hamas is a political party with a military wing.

So is Fatah, which the US supported. For that matter, Israel is fairly similar, and both recieved aid because they were seen to be the lesser evil.


Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation.

Isn't it awfully simple to declare that you either give the money to the Head of Government or don't give it at all? Couldn't they have formed an all-party council to determine the distributin of aid? Couldn't they have made an international observer group? Obviously the answer is yes, but they chose not to. It was a political decision with the aim of forcing Hamas to abandon violence. It failed, and the result is a total economic meltdown in the West Bank.

And if were talking about what history has taught us, we could say that poverty breeds desperation, and desperation breeds extremism and violence.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come.

Of course they do. The fact of the matter is that Israel had occuopied Palestine so long that there are now multiple organized armed groups dedicated to their destruction. Do you think the leaders of these organizations will simply say, "well, Israel pulled out of Gaza, I think I'll go back to living in a refugee camp now."?

No one gives up power willingly. Not Palestinians, not Israelis.


(Rocket attacks)Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.


Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.

However, the recent Sderot Starves Itself campaign which forced liberal Defence Minister Amir Peretz to launch more attacks was obviously successful. This is not because Peretz is some bloody murderer, far from it. The fact is, he is a politician. If he doesn't so what people tell him to do, he won't get elected. More than that, Peretz is on his way to being Prime Minister, so he will be more responsive than most.


Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

And if you had fought a bloody war against those oppressors for 40 years without any success, would you just keep on keepin' on? Would you attack 'soft' targets. Would you be able to retain any real legitimacy if all of your fighters were born in exile? How long does this rule apply? Can I go back to Ireland and start a bloody war there becuse 60 years ago we had to leave?

The bottom line is that divisive political struggle + economic meltdown + international intervention for national goals = bloody civil war.

Both Israel and Palestine are to blame. Both populations want this bloody war.
And sadly, they will both get it.

[Osman Ghazi]

Hamas is a political party with a military wing.

So is Fatah, which the US supported. For that matter, Israel is fairly similar, and both recieved aid because they were seen to be the lesser evil.


Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation.

Isn't it awfully simple to declare that you either give the money to the Head of Government or don't give it at all? Couldn't they have formed an all-party council to determine the distributin of aid? Couldn't they have made an international observer group? Obviously the answer is yes, but they chose not to. It was a political decision with the aim of forcing Hamas to abandon violence. It failed, and the result is a total economic meltdown in the West Bank.

And if were talking about what history has taught us, we could say that poverty breeds desperation, and desperation breeds extremism and violence.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come.

Of course they do. The fact of the matter is that Israel had occuopied Palestine so long that there are now multiple organized armed groups dedicated to their destruction. Do you think the leaders of these organizations will simply say, "well, Israel pulled out of Gaza, I think I'll go back to living in a refugee camp now."?

No one gives up power willingly. Not Palestinians, not Israelis.


(Rocket attacks)Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.


Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.

However, the recent Sderot Starves Itself campaign which forced liberal Defence Minister Amir Peretz to launch more attacks was obviously successful. This is not because Peretz is some bloody murderer, far from it. The fact is, he is a politician. If he doesn't so what people tell him to do, he won't get elected. More than that, Peretz is on his way to being Prime Minister, so he will be more responsive than most.


Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

And if you had fought a bloody war against those oppressors for 40 years without any success, would you just keep on keepin' on? Would you attack 'soft' targets. Would you be able to retain any real legitimacy if all of your fighters were born in exile? How long does this rule apply? Can I go back to Ireland and start a bloody war there becuse 60 years ago we had to leave?

The bottom line is that divisive political struggle + economic meltdown + international intervention for national goals = bloody civil war.

Both Israel and Palestine are to blame. Both populations want this bloody war.
And sadly, they will both get it.

[Osman Ghazi]

Hamas is a political party with a military wing.

So is Fatah, which the US supported. For that matter, Israel is fairly similar, and both recieved aid because they were seen to be the lesser evil.


Oh I see, the world should send money to a terrorist organazation.

Isn't it awfully simple to declare that you either give the money to the Head of Government or don't give it at all? Couldn't they have formed an all-party council to determine the distributin of aid? Couldn't they have made an international observer group? Obviously the answer is yes, but they chose not to. It was a political decision with the aim of forcing Hamas to abandon violence. It failed, and the result is a total economic meltdown in the West Bank.

And if were talking about what history has taught us, we could say that poverty breeds desperation, and desperation breeds extremism and violence.


Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come.

Of course they do. The fact of the matter is that Israel had occuopied Palestine so long that there are now multiple organized armed groups dedicated to their destruction. Do you think the leaders of these organizations will simply say, "well, Israel pulled out of Gaza, I think I'll go back to living in a refugee camp now."?

No one gives up power willingly. Not Palestinians, not Israelis.


(Rocket attacks)Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.


Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.

However, the recent Sderot Starves Itself campaign which forced liberal Defence Minister Amir Peretz to launch more attacks was obviously successful. This is not because Peretz is some bloody murderer, far from it. The fact is, he is a politician. If he doesn't so what people tell him to do, he won't get elected. More than that, Peretz is on his way to being Prime Minister, so he will be more responsive than most.


Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

And if you had fought a bloody war against those oppressors for 40 years without any success, would you just keep on keepin' on? Would you attack 'soft' targets. Would you be able to retain any real legitimacy if all of your fighters were born in exile? How long does this rule apply? Can I go back to Ireland and start a bloody war there becuse 60 years ago we had to leave?

The bottom line is that divisive political struggle + economic meltdown + international intervention for national goals = bloody civil war.

Both Israel and Palestine are to blame. Both populations want this bloody war.
And sadly, they will both get it.

[theraven]

Bullshit, yes they removed the settlers from gaza, but everybody is talking here about the borders of 67.
The "security fence" israel build up does not only violate this border, it cute of whole villages from the outside... i really hate saying things over so please next time read the posts before you answer.

1) why the 67 borders? because they were undefendable?
2) the security fence is temproory and a defense, not a permanet border.



Its not only about aid its also about the taxes the palestinian government deserves

it doesn't make much sense for israel to fund its enemy.


Its isreal who doesnt want to negotiate, Hamas announced many times they are ready for peace.


Israel doesn't negotaite with hamas because its a lose lose situation. Israel knows Hamas won't accept a reasoanel offer so they don't bother.


yes and the palestinians have lots of reason to trust the israelis. btw you tend to forget who is the invader here.


Neither as far as i know, both people ahve lived there for a while now. the jews who immigrated there Pre-israel bought the land they lived on and unlike most invaders didn't militarlytake the country.



Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

I'm sorry but what situation are you talking about? becaue we are talkign the israel-arab situatoin whcih can be summarzed liek this:

the dispuated land, called since roman times "palestine" (as an insult to the jews-it was named after their long deceased enemies the philistines, it was previusly called judea). the ensuing conqurers kept the name, the byzantines, the crusaders, muslims. however there are some interasting facts about the country
1) the only time was indepenet of an empire in those 2000 years was under crusader kings
2) there were no natioanlist movements there of any note till jews arrived, and the first substaitnal arab natialinist groups only emerged in the early 60s (before th war of 67)
the israelis of today, far from some barbrain horde, have made the dessert bloom, turning israel into a country famous for its agricutlural exports. The arabs who now are demanding thre state already had a chance, and have had several since, to get a state. each time they reject it because they want the whole pie, which doesn't exactly give israel much incentive to negotiate.



Isn't it awfully simple to declare that you either give the money to the Head of Government or don't give it at all? Couldn't they have formed an all-party council to determine the distributin of aid? Couldn't they have made an international observer group? Obviously the answer is yes, but they chose not to. It was a political decision with the aim of forcing Hamas to abandon violence. It failed, and the result is a total economic meltdown in the West Bank.

And if were talking about what history has taught us, we could say that poverty breeds desperation, and desperation breeds extremism and violence.

huh? The governments choose not to give aid to hamas, thats the end of it. they made the rigth choice, hamas is a terrost org.



Of course they do. The fact of the matter is that Israel had occuopied Palestine so long that there are now multiple organized armed groups dedicated to their destruction. Do you think the leaders of these organizations will simply say, "well, Israel pulled out of Gaza, I think I'll go back to living in a refugee camp now."?

No one gives up power willingly. Not Palestinians, not Israelis.

Israel seemed to, pulling its ciitzns out of gaza despte protests...



Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.


its not israels fault that its more effective at killing then hamas...

[theraven]

Bullshit, yes they removed the settlers from gaza, but everybody is talking here about the borders of 67.
The "security fence" israel build up does not only violate this border, it cute of whole villages from the outside... i really hate saying things over so please next time read the posts before you answer.

1) why the 67 borders? because they were undefendable?
2) the security fence is temproory and a defense, not a permanet border.



Its not only about aid its also about the taxes the palestinian government deserves

it doesn't make much sense for israel to fund its enemy.


Its isreal who doesnt want to negotiate, Hamas announced many times they are ready for peace.


Israel doesn't negotaite with hamas because its a lose lose situation. Israel knows Hamas won't accept a reasoanel offer so they don't bother.


yes and the palestinians have lots of reason to trust the israelis. btw you tend to forget who is the invader here.


Neither as far as i know, both people ahve lived there for a while now. the jews who immigrated there Pre-israel bought the land they lived on and unlike most invaders didn't militarlytake the country.



Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

I'm sorry but what situation are you talking about? becaue we are talkign the israel-arab situatoin whcih can be summarzed liek this:

the dispuated land, called since roman times "palestine" (as an insult to the jews-it was named after their long deceased enemies the philistines, it was previusly called judea). the ensuing conqurers kept the name, the byzantines, the crusaders, muslims. however there are some interasting facts about the country
1) the only time was indepenet of an empire in those 2000 years was under crusader kings
2) there were no natioanlist movements there of any note till jews arrived, and the first substaitnal arab natialinist groups only emerged in the early 60s (before th war of 67)
the israelis of today, far from some barbrain horde, have made the dessert bloom, turning israel into a country famous for its agricutlural exports. The arabs who now are demanding thre state already had a chance, and have had several since, to get a state. each time they reject it because they want the whole pie, which doesn't exactly give israel much incentive to negotiate.



Isn't it awfully simple to declare that you either give the money to the Head of Government or don't give it at all? Couldn't they have formed an all-party council to determine the distributin of aid? Couldn't they have made an international observer group? Obviously the answer is yes, but they chose not to. It was a political decision with the aim of forcing Hamas to abandon violence. It failed, and the result is a total economic meltdown in the West Bank.

And if were talking about what history has taught us, we could say that poverty breeds desperation, and desperation breeds extremism and violence.

huh? The governments choose not to give aid to hamas, thats the end of it. they made the rigth choice, hamas is a terrost org.



Of course they do. The fact of the matter is that Israel had occuopied Palestine so long that there are now multiple organized armed groups dedicated to their destruction. Do you think the leaders of these organizations will simply say, "well, Israel pulled out of Gaza, I think I'll go back to living in a refugee camp now."?

No one gives up power willingly. Not Palestinians, not Israelis.

Israel seemed to, pulling its ciitzns out of gaza despte protests...



Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.


its not israels fault that its more effective at killing then hamas...

[theraven]

Bullshit, yes they removed the settlers from gaza, but everybody is talking here about the borders of 67.
The "security fence" israel build up does not only violate this border, it cute of whole villages from the outside... i really hate saying things over so please next time read the posts before you answer.

1) why the 67 borders? because they were undefendable?
2) the security fence is temproory and a defense, not a permanet border.



Its not only about aid its also about the taxes the palestinian government deserves

it doesn't make much sense for israel to fund its enemy.


Its isreal who doesnt want to negotiate, Hamas announced many times they are ready for peace.


Israel doesn't negotaite with hamas because its a lose lose situation. Israel knows Hamas won't accept a reasoanel offer so they don't bother.


yes and the palestinians have lots of reason to trust the israelis. btw you tend to forget who is the invader here.


Neither as far as i know, both people ahve lived there for a while now. the jews who immigrated there Pre-israel bought the land they lived on and unlike most invaders didn't militarlytake the country.



Lets say [insert random population here] invades [insert your country here], and they declare themselves a new state on your territory. after years of fighting they say you can have 10% of your land back and call it a two state solution. They build a huge wall around you, keep attacking your citizens on your soil and call it self defence. WOW I BET YOU'D BE SOOO HAPPY, espcially if they killed your whole family already.

I'm sorry but what situation are you talking about? becaue we are talkign the israel-arab situatoin whcih can be summarzed liek this:

the dispuated land, called since roman times "palestine" (as an insult to the jews-it was named after their long deceased enemies the philistines, it was previusly called judea). the ensuing conqurers kept the name, the byzantines, the crusaders, muslims. however there are some interasting facts about the country
1) the only time was indepenet of an empire in those 2000 years was under crusader kings
2) there were no natioanlist movements there of any note till jews arrived, and the first substaitnal arab natialinist groups only emerged in the early 60s (before th war of 67)
the israelis of today, far from some barbrain horde, have made the dessert bloom, turning israel into a country famous for its agricutlural exports. The arabs who now are demanding thre state already had a chance, and have had several since, to get a state. each time they reject it because they want the whole pie, which doesn't exactly give israel much incentive to negotiate.



Isn't it awfully simple to declare that you either give the money to the Head of Government or don't give it at all? Couldn't they have formed an all-party council to determine the distributin of aid? Couldn't they have made an international observer group? Obviously the answer is yes, but they chose not to. It was a political decision with the aim of forcing Hamas to abandon violence. It failed, and the result is a total economic meltdown in the West Bank.

And if were talking about what history has taught us, we could say that poverty breeds desperation, and desperation breeds extremism and violence.

huh? The governments choose not to give aid to hamas, thats the end of it. they made the rigth choice, hamas is a terrost org.



Of course they do. The fact of the matter is that Israel had occuopied Palestine so long that there are now multiple organized armed groups dedicated to their destruction. Do you think the leaders of these organizations will simply say, "well, Israel pulled out of Gaza, I think I'll go back to living in a refugee camp now."?

No one gives up power willingly. Not Palestinians, not Israelis.

Israel seemed to, pulling its ciitzns out of gaza despte protests...



Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.


its not israels fault that its more effective at killing then hamas...

[RaiseYourVoice]

1) why the 67 borders? because they were undefendable?
maybe because they are a good compromise? WOW NO I FORGOT PALESTIANS WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AT ANY COST. sorry.



2) the security fence is temproory and a defense, not a permanet border.
did you every see this "fence"? its a huge wall, no one can tell me they gonna pull it down in 2 years.


it doesn't make much sense for israel to fund its enemy.
1. If they are enemys they can go to way, they dont.
2. Its not funding its money the palestinian government earns, if you occupy a country you have responsibility for it. Even the americans used to show more of that responsibility, and even now at least they have some sence of it.


Israel doesn't negotaite with hamas because its a lose lose situation. Israel knows Hamas won't accept a reasoanel offer so they don't bother.
READ THE NEWSPAPER

Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel's right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1803177,00.html)
Yes it seems like you cant negotiate with hamas at all i totally agree with you. :wacko:


its not israels fault that its more effective at killing then hamas...
Yes because we all know killing happen randomly, they are like the wind, they just come and go nobody controlls it. do you even think about what you're saying?

[RaiseYourVoice]

1) why the 67 borders? because they were undefendable?
maybe because they are a good compromise? WOW NO I FORGOT PALESTIANS WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AT ANY COST. sorry.



2) the security fence is temproory and a defense, not a permanet border.
did you every see this "fence"? its a huge wall, no one can tell me they gonna pull it down in 2 years.


it doesn't make much sense for israel to fund its enemy.
1. If they are enemys they can go to way, they dont.
2. Its not funding its money the palestinian government earns, if you occupy a country you have responsibility for it. Even the americans used to show more of that responsibility, and even now at least they have some sence of it.


Israel doesn't negotaite with hamas because its a lose lose situation. Israel knows Hamas won't accept a reasoanel offer so they don't bother.
READ THE NEWSPAPER

Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel's right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1803177,00.html)
Yes it seems like you cant negotiate with hamas at all i totally agree with you. :wacko:


its not israels fault that its more effective at killing then hamas...
Yes because we all know killing happen randomly, they are like the wind, they just come and go nobody controlls it. do you even think about what you're saying?

[RaiseYourVoice]

1) why the 67 borders? because they were undefendable?
maybe because they are a good compromise? WOW NO I FORGOT PALESTIANS WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AT ANY COST. sorry.



2) the security fence is temproory and a defense, not a permanet border.
did you every see this "fence"? its a huge wall, no one can tell me they gonna pull it down in 2 years.


it doesn't make much sense for israel to fund its enemy.
1. If they are enemys they can go to way, they dont.
2. Its not funding its money the palestinian government earns, if you occupy a country you have responsibility for it. Even the americans used to show more of that responsibility, and even now at least they have some sence of it.


Israel doesn't negotaite with hamas because its a lose lose situation. Israel knows Hamas won't accept a reasoanel offer so they don't bother.
READ THE NEWSPAPER

Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel's right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1803177,00.html)
Yes it seems like you cant negotiate with hamas at all i totally agree with you. :wacko:


its not israels fault that its more effective at killing then hamas...
Yes because we all know killing happen randomly, they are like the wind, they just come and go nobody controlls it. do you even think about what you're saying?

[Janus]

By the way, whatever came of Israel's investigation. They supposedly said that a Palestinian rocket also had to be taken into account.

I find that very doubtful as it would have to be a horrible misfire for that to occur.

Looking at the info., I think that it was most likely Israeli artillery as most here believe.

[Janus]

By the way, whatever came of Israel's investigation. They supposedly said that a Palestinian rocket also had to be taken into account.

I find that very doubtful as it would have to be a horrible misfire for that to occur.

Looking at the info., I think that it was most likely Israeli artillery as most here believe.

[Janus]

By the way, whatever came of Israel's investigation. They supposedly said that a Palestinian rocket also had to be taken into account.

I find that very doubtful as it would have to be a horrible misfire for that to occur.

Looking at the info., I think that it was most likely Israeli artillery as most here believe.

[theraven]

maybe because they are a good compromise? WOW NO I FORGOT PALESTIANS WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AT ANY COST. sorry.

how is it a good comprimise? a lot of tihngs have changed since then



did you every see this "fence"? its a huge wall, no one can tell me they gonna pull it down in 2 years.

thats only pieces of the fence


1. If they are enemys they can go to way, they dont.

I assume you mean war,and they don't becuase israel would slaughter the arabs


2. Its not funding its money the palestinian government earns, if you occupy a country you have responsibility for it. Even the americans used to show more of that responsibility, and even now at least they have some sence of it.

its funding israel controls....


The Guardian
Yes it seems like you cant negotiate with hamas at all i totally agree with you. wacko.gif



Yes because we all know killing happen randomly, they are like the wind, they just come and go nobody controlls it. do you even think about what you're saying?


of course i do,however the fact remains that in densly populated area, other people will get hurt

this is very recent, and i am skeptical...

[theraven]

maybe because they are a good compromise? WOW NO I FORGOT PALESTIANS WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AT ANY COST. sorry.

how is it a good comprimise? a lot of tihngs have changed since then



did you every see this "fence"? its a huge wall, no one can tell me they gonna pull it down in 2 years.

thats only pieces of the fence


1. If they are enemys they can go to way, they dont.

I assume you mean war,and they don't becuase israel would slaughter the arabs


2. Its not funding its money the palestinian government earns, if you occupy a country you have responsibility for it. Even the americans used to show more of that responsibility, and even now at least they have some sence of it.

its funding israel controls....


The Guardian
Yes it seems like you cant negotiate with hamas at all i totally agree with you. wacko.gif



Yes because we all know killing happen randomly, they are like the wind, they just come and go nobody controlls it. do you even think about what you're saying?


of course i do,however the fact remains that in densly populated area, other people will get hurt

this is very recent, and i am skeptical...

[theraven]

maybe because they are a good compromise? WOW NO I FORGOT PALESTIANS WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL AT ANY COST. sorry.

how is it a good comprimise? a lot of tihngs have changed since then



did you every see this "fence"? its a huge wall, no one can tell me they gonna pull it down in 2 years.

thats only pieces of the fence


1. If they are enemys they can go to way, they dont.

I assume you mean war,and they don't becuase israel would slaughter the arabs


2. Its not funding its money the palestinian government earns, if you occupy a country you have responsibility for it. Even the americans used to show more of that responsibility, and even now at least they have some sence of it.

its funding israel controls....


The Guardian
Yes it seems like you cant negotiate with hamas at all i totally agree with you. wacko.gif



Yes because we all know killing happen randomly, they are like the wind, they just come and go nobody controlls it. do you even think about what you're saying?


of course i do,however the fact remains that in densly populated area, other people will get hurt

this is very recent, and i am skeptical...

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:21 PM
Israel did exactly that, it removed all settlers from gaza, yet the attakc still come.
Israel may have removed illegal settlers from Gaza alone, but it is still in control of Gaza itself, and there are still frequent attacks against the Palestinian people by the Israelis inside Gaza, despite the voluntary and one-sided truce that Hamas has kept for more than a year.


and far from defenidng their land, all they seem to do is randomly attack israeli cviallisn. its a wonder iserael doesnt' respodn harder.


First of all, please type so that I can understand what you are trying to state.

Secondly, ask yourself what is inviting Israel to be attacked by poorly-made rockets from the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

Maybe you might - for once - think to yourself that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is the cause of Palestinian retaliation?

Indeed, the Israeli forces have a long tradition of "inviting" the salvoes of Qassams. In April of last year, Ariel Sharon left for a meeting with George W Bush in which his central message was that Mahmoud Abbas was untrustworthy, has no control of the ground, and cannot be a partner for negotiations.

Consequently, the Israeli forces took care to provide an appropriate backdrop for the meeting, and on the eve of Sharon's departure on the 9th of April 2005, Israel killed three youths on the Rafah border, who according to Palestinian sources were playing football.

This arbitrary killing inflamed a wave of anger in the Gaza Strip, which had been relatively quiet until then. Hamas responded to the anger on the street, and permitted its people to participate in the firing of Qassams. In the next two days, about 80 Qassams were fired, until Hamas restored calm. Thus, during the Sharon-Bush meeting, the world received a perfect illustration of the untrustworthiness of Abbas.

A couple of weeks ago (11th June 2006), Ehud Olmert set out to Europe in an effort to convince European leaders that now, with Hamas in power, Israel definitely has no partner for peace talks. Washington does not need such convincing at the moment, but in Europe there is more reservation about unilateral measures.

The Israeli forces began to prepare the backdrop on the night of the 8th of June, when it "liquidated" Jamal Abu Samhanada, who had recently been appointed head of the security forces of the Interior Ministry by the Hamas government.

It was entirely predictable that the action may lead to Qassam attacks on the Israeli city of Sderot. Nonetheless, the Israelis proceeded the following day to shell the Gaza coast (killing the Ghalya family and wounding tens of people), and succeeded in igniting the required retaliation, until Hamas again ordered its people, on the 14th of June, to cease firing.

The problem was, the pictures that were seen by the world of young Huda Ghalya pricked outrage in the West and even a little condemnation of Israel.

If Israel truly wished for Palestinian attacks to stop, they would end the illegal occupation and the maltreatment (to say the least) of Palestinians.


Ya the un :haha: HRW, the george soros funded propagand amcahine, that went in 3 days AFTER the incident (not like their could be tampering or anytihng).

Crap counter-argument, but I expected such a response.

Read this... (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4832.shtml)


withdrawing aid for any reason is accepabtle, its aid, not a rright.

So withdrawing the basic necessities of a whole population, who are already imprisoned by a brutal occupation, simply because they exercised their democratic rights is acceptable in your eyes?

At least you admit to your cold-heartedness for fellow human beings.

Maybe it's because they are brown-skinned.

Anyway, Israel is obligated by international law to provide money that was in the first place due to the Palestinians. Past agreements (such as the 1994 Paris Protocols) call for Israel to allow the transfer of taxes from Palestinian workers to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority.

Quite simply, the withholding of Palestinian money by Israel is illegal.


translation:

"cede our demands and maybe will stop attacking you, you have no reasont o trust us..but c'mon..."


The actions of Hamas, more precisely the 16-month truce they have kept, show that they are ready for peace-talks.

Conflicts are always ended by negotiations and talks.


Israel does recozine arab rights, it has decided on a two state solution, and even remvoed itself from one of the major disputated terrotires.

Israel does not recognise Palestinian rights, because if it did there would be no illegal occupation of Palestinian land, as well as continued theft of Palestinian land.

That Israel has said it is committed to a "two-state solution" is fact, but the actions of the Israelis contradict all aspirations for a viable Palestinian state.

The mere fact that Olmert (just like his predecessors) wishes to retain the major illegal Jewish settlements in the illegally occupied West Bank, goes to show just how much Israel wants a viable Palestinian state to be formed. Indeed, this is what the unilateral disengagement plan has always been about.

Israel may have evacuated Gaza, but it is also retaining and strengthening its grip on the West Bank.

Indeed, Dov Weissglas, an Israeli chief of staff, declared in an interview with Ha'aretz in October 2004 that:

The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process... When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 23 2006, 11:06 AM

(Rocket attacks)Bullshit excuse that Israel always uses.

It has long been redundant.


Yes and no. Of the 4500 Qassam rockats fired at Sderot since 2000, only 4 people have been killed. Israel kills more civilians accidentally in one operation.
You ignored the part where I assume that their reasons may be true.

[theraven]

Israel may have removed illegal settlers from Gaza alone, but it is still in control of Gaza itself, and there are still frequent attacks against the Palestinian people by the Israelis inside Gaza, despite the voluntary and one-sided truce that Hamas has kept for more than a year.

well it tried to start off the people in gaza by running their own area first, but fro some reaosn that didnt' work out...


First of all, please type so that I can understand what you are trying to state.

ok-though i find it ironic you then respond to me rather extenisvely...


Secondly, ask yourself what is inviting Israel to be attacked by poorly-made rockets from the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

lets do a little exercise

"ask yourself what is inviting this young girl to be raped"


Maybe you might - for once - think to yourself that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is the cause of Palestinian retaliation?

how bout them rocket attacsk we keep hearing about..some truce...

"may you might-for once- think to yourself that the miniskirt and tub top was the cause of the rape"


Indeed, the Israeli forces have a long tradition of "inviting" the salvoes of Qassams. In April of last year, Ariel Sharon left for a meeting with George W Bush in which his central message was that Mahmoud Abbas was untrustworthy, has no control of the ground, and cannot be a partner for negotiations.

mostly because it was true.


Consequently, the Israeli forces took care to provide an appropriate backdrop for the meeting, and on the eve of Sharon's departure on the 9th of April 2005, Israel killed three youths on the Rafah border, who according to Palestinian sources were playing football.

I think i remeber this actually. several arab boys were playing soccer near the border zone where israeli troops gaurd. they kicked on to the field and starting going across. the soliders called out repeated in arabic for the boys to stop, when they didn't they had to fire on them.


This arbitrary killing inflamed a wave of anger in the Gaza Strip, which had been relatively quiet until then. Hamas responded to the anger on the street, and permitted its people to participate in the firing of Qassams. In the next two days, about 80 Qassams were fired, until Hamas restored calm. Thus, during the Sharon-Bush meeting, the world received a perfect illustration of the untrustworthiness of Abbas.


thats an excellent proof that they want peace. I'm sorry but "he started it" doesnt' get you out of trouble in middle school, it certainly doesn't in the real world.


A couple of weeks ago (11th June 2006), Ehud Olmert set out to Europe in an effort to convince European leaders that now, with Hamas in power, Israel definitely has no partner for peace talks. Washington does not need such convincing at the moment, but in Europe there is more reservation about unilateral measures.

The Israeli forces began to prepare the backdrop on the night of the 8th of June, when it "liquidated" Jamal Abu Samhanada, who had recently been appointed head of the security forces of the Interior Ministry by the Hamas government.

aka they killed a terrorist and enemy leader


It was entirely predictable that the action may lead to Qassam attacks on the Israeli city of Sderot. Nonetheless, the Israelis proceeded the following day to shell the Gaza coast (killing the Ghalya family and wounding tens of people), and succeeded in igniting the required retaliation, until Hamas again ordered its people, on the 14th of June, to cease firing.


what about this ceasee fire you mention? this doesnt' seem very in line with that...


The problem was, the pictures that were seen by the world of young Huda Ghalya pricked outrage in the West and even a little condemnation of Israel.

If Israel truly wished for Palestinian attacks to stop, they would end the illegal occupation and the maltreatment (to say the least) of Palestinians.

if the girl really wanted the rape to stop she would stop wearing such slutty clothing...



Crap counter-argument, but I expected such a response.

Read this...

ok here ya go (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885821374&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)



So withdrawing the basic necessities of a whole population, who are already imprisoned by a brutal occupation, simply because they exercised their democratic rights is acceptable in your eyes?

At least you admit to your cold-heartedness for fellow human beings.

Maybe it's because they are brown-skinned.


No, skin color is not the issue here, the issue is they have a terrosit govenrment, No moral govenrmetn can give aid to such a govnermnet. I would give the moeny instead to groups which act indepently in judea/samira or gaza rather then the government


Anyway, Israel is obligated by international law to provide money that was in the first place due to the Palestinians. Past agreements (such as the 1994 Paris Protocols) call for Israel to allow the transfer of taxes from Palestinian workers to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority.

Quite simply, the withholding of Palestinian money by Israel is illegal.

I agree it probably is illegeal, however Israel is doing so to prevent its enemy from getting money.



The actions of Hamas, more precisely the 16-month truce they have kept, show that they are ready for peace-talks.

Conflicts are always ended by negotiations and talks.

what about those rocket attacks...some cease fire..

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:31 PM
Secondly, ask yourself what is inviting Israel to be attacked by poorly-made rockets from the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

lets do a little exercise

"ask yourself what is inviting this young girl to be raped"


Maybe you might - for once - think to yourself that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is the cause of Palestinian retaliation?

how bout them rocket attacsk we keep hearing about..some truce...

"may you might-for once- think to yourself that the miniskirt and tub top was the cause of the rape"


...and then I stopped reading because it was quite clear you mr.raven are an ignorant **** of the highest order. I don's see exactly how, even in your tiny mind you can say that a continued campaign of agression that culminates in 'terrorist' groups avenging their fallen countrymen is in ANY WAY analogous with somone wearing slutty clothes getting raped. I'm sorry but I truly do not think anything you write is worth reading after that display of utter fucking stupidity. Just a hint for when you grow up: a better anology (though one that wouldnm't help you.) would be something like a school shooting or a battered spouse cutting off her husbands penis.

[theraven]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Jun 25 2006, 08:58 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Jun 25 2006, 08:58 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 07:31 PM
Secondly, ask yourself what is inviting Israel to be attacked by poorly-made rockets from the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

lets do a little exercise

"ask yourself what is inviting this young girl to be raped"


Maybe you might - for once - think to yourself that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is the cause of Palestinian retaliation?

how bout them rocket attacsk we keep hearing about..some truce...

"may you might-for once- think to yourself that the miniskirt and tub top was the cause of the rape"


...and then I stopped reading because it was quite clear you mr.raven are an ignorant **** of the highest order. I don's see exactly how, even in your tiny mind you can say that a continued campaign of agression that culminates in 'terrorist' groups avenging their fallen countrymen is in ANY WAY analogous with somone wearing slutty clothes getting raped. I'm sorry but I truly do not think anything you write is worth reading after that display of utter fucking stupidity. Just a hint for when you grow up: a better anology (though one that wouldnm't help you.) would be something like a school shooting or a battered spouse cutting off her husbands penis. [/b]
no, the anlgoy was qite apt. He was arguing that israel desreved the attacsk for its actions. this is equivlelent to the old "she deserved to be raped for being a slut"

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 09:31 PM
no, the anlgoy was qite apt. He was arguing that israel desreved the attacsk for its actions. this is equivlelent to the old "she deserved to be raped for being a slut"
israel's actions were active and violent. It is a lot more analogous with what I was saying: something like somone suffering a series of abuses and then striking back. Personally I disagree with Hamas on relegious grounds (because they have a relegion.) but I find they're justified in fighting back against israel.

[theraven]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Jun 26 2006, 12:05 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Jun 26 2006, 12:05 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 09:31 PM
no, the anlgoy was qite apt. He was arguing that israel desreved the attacsk for its actions. this is equivlelent to the old "she deserved to be raped for being a slut"
israel's actions were active and violent. It is a lot more analogous with what I was saying: something like somone suffering a series of abuses and then striking back. Personally I disagree with Hamas on relegious grounds (because they have a relegion.) but I find they're justified in fighting back against israel. [/b]
No, becuase your analgoy assumes the Arabs were passive victims at first, and struck back at israel after a series of abuses, whcih isn't the case.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 12:10 PM
No, becuase your analgoy assumes the Arabs were passive victims at first, and struck back at israel after a series of abuses, whcih isn't the case.
And yours assumes that Israel was entirely innocent of anything, when in fact they've been shooting the shit out of civilians since day one. yes I am aware the situation in gaza is made up of many shades of grey butpart of it is to do with israel's occupation and violence toward palestinians. palestine may not be entirely innocent but it is 'morally superior', so to speak, to israel because it is an occupied nation fighting for independence.

[theraven]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Jun 26 2006, 12:21 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Jun 26 2006, 12:21 PM)
[email protected] 26 2006, 12:10 PM
No, becuase your analgoy assumes the Arabs were passive victims at first, and struck back at israel after a series of abuses, whcih isn't the case.
And yours assumes that Israel was entirely innocent of anything, when in fact they've been shooting the shit out of civilians since day one. yes I am aware the situation in gaza is made up of many shades of grey butpart of it is to do with israel's occupation and violence toward palestinians. palestine may not be entirely innocent but it is 'morally superior', so to speak, to israel because it is an occupied nation fighting for independence. [/b]
they've been "shooting the shit out of civilins from day one" what the F*** are you talkinga buot?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 12:30 PM
they've been "shooting the shit out of civilins from day one" what the F*** are you talkinga buot?
What the hell do you think 'collateral damage' is when applied to Israeli milatry actions? A few derelict buildings knocked down? Accidentally grazing a civilian?

Cretin.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:31 PM
well it tried to start off the people in gaza by running their own area first, but fro some reaosn that didnt' work out...
So that must be why Dov Weissglas said what he said...

:rolleyes:

The Israeli unilateral disengagement plan included Israeli forces maintaining control of the Gaza coastline and airspace, whilst reserving the "right" to invade and attack Gaza at any time and for any reason.

Israel also retained control over Palestinian water supply, as well as Palestinian communication, electricity and sewage networks. Moreover, the existing customs arrangements with Israel - under which imports from Israel to Gaza are not taxed, whilst exports from Gaza to Israel are taxed and Israel collects customs duties on foreign products entering Gaza - continued to remain in force.

Indeed, independent foreign observers such as the International Committee of the Red Cross and Human Rights Watch, as well as many legal experts, have stated quite clearly that the disengagement from Gaza has not ended Israel's legal responsibility as an "occupying power" in Gaza.

Added to all of that is the fact that Israel continued to build more illegal settlements in the West Bank, whilst strengthening the already existing settlements in that area of Occupied Palestine.


ok-though i find it ironic you then respond to me rather extenisvely...

The point I was trying to make is that your atrocious spelling makes it quite hard to comprehend your statements sometimes.

The occassional typo is understandable, but the problem is that you are consistently making them.


lets do a little exercise

"ask yourself what is inviting this young girl to be raped"

:lol:

Shit example.


how bout them rocket attacsk we keep hearing about..some truce...

Hamas, just like when Arafat was in power, cannot control every single Palestinian militant in the OPTs, especially when Israel continues to harass and attack innocent Palestinian people day-in day-out.


"may you might-for once- think to yourself that the miniskirt and tub top was the cause of the rape"[

Stop ignoring my points.

I would like a proper response please.


I think i remeber this actually. several arab boys were playing soccer near the border zone where israeli troops gaurd. they kicked on to the field and starting going across. the soliders called out repeated in arabic for the boys to stop, when they didn't they had to fire on them.

The Doctors who saw the three dead boys (I say "saw" because only one was not dead on arrival) stated that they died of multiple gunshot wounds in the chest and neck.

Moreover, ambulances were prevented from reaching the boys for a considerable amount of time, with the only boy who was alive at the scene dying of his wounds shortly after getting to the hospital.

Any human being with a hint of compassion and dignity would find this incident (and it is only one of many) completely unacceptable, yet you believe that it somehow "had" to be done.

I have read that you are in fact a Jew (in another thread).

Surely as a Jew (people who have suffered a hell of a lot of persecution), you cannot stand by and condone the actions being committed by fellow Jews in Israel?

I find it astonishing that you do.


thats an excellent proof that they want peace. I'm sorry but "he started it" doesnt' get you out of trouble in middle school, it certainly doesn't in the real world.

I'm sorry but with peace must come justice, otherwise it means nothing.

Israel must realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is an injustice that cannot go on any longer.

The Palestinian people, understandably so, will not accept a peace without justice.

Any such agreement would be illogical and utterly unacceptable.


aka they killed a terrorist and enemy leader

No.

Israel murdered a representative of the Palestinian people.

He was democratically elected into his position and his murder is by definition a war crime that should have been condemned by the international community.

Indeed, such an action will only serve to further anger and alienate the Palestinian people, who will understandably look for revenge.

Such a backdrop is not suitable for any "peace" talks with Israel.


what about this ceasee fire you mention? this doesnt' seem very in line with that...

Why the hell should the Palestinian people maintain a ceasefire when at the very same time Israel continues to attack and kill innocent Palestinian people?

The one-sided and voluntary ceasefire was never replicated by Israel.


if the girl really wanted the rape to stop she would stop wearing such slutty clothing...

Another evasion of the facts that have been presented to you...

:rolleyes:


ok here ya go

Obviously you didn't read the article I gave to you because every lie that is made in the article linked by yourself is refuted by the one I gave to you.

Anyway, to sum it up:

The Israeli forces have claimed that the lethal explosion was not caused by a stray shell landing on the Gaza beach, but most probably by a mine placed there by Palestinian militants.

The problem with the Israeli cover-up (sorry, "investigation") is that to believe it you would have to accept two ridiculous assumptions:

Firstly - that Palestinian militants are so crazy that they consider it acceptable to lay a mine secretly in an area frequently visted by Palestinian families.

Secondly - that Palestinians are too primitive not to see the obvious futility of placing a single mine along many miles of coastline that could be used for a landing (or are we to assume that there are many more of these secret mines waiting to explode?).

Moreover, to support its case, the Israelis also claimed that a piece of shrapnel removed by Doctors from an injured Palestinian transferred to an Israeli hospital was not from one its shells but more likely from a Palestinian explosive device.

Given that, unlike Israel, the Palestinians do not have any factories manufacturing mines or rockets and are forced instead to make them out of any spare metal parts they can get their hands on this evidence is worthless.

Palestinian witnesses have already said that the beach victims were standing close to taxis when the shell exploded. So if the shrapnel was not from an Israeli shell, it suggests only that the missile also damaged other metal objects - possibly the cars.

The main problem with the Israeli explanation, is that we must take their word for it.

But, you see, how can we trust people who have been shown to have lied not only to the world, but also to their very own people and courts, repeatedly?

For example, just this week, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the army and Ministry of Defence to pull down several kilometres of the steel and concrete barrier they have erected on Palestinian land in the West Bank after it was proved that the "security considerations" behind the choice of the wall's route were actually bogus.

Official documents revealed that the wall was located there to allow for future expansion of nearby illegal Jewish settlements on yet more Palestinian land.

The army and government had concocted the lie and then stuck to it for more than two years. Chief Justice Aharon Barak called their systematic lying "a grave phenomenon".


No, skin color is not the issue here, the issue is they have a terrosit govenrment, No moral govenrmetn can give aid to such a govnermnet.

What exactly is your definition of the word "terrorism"?


I agree it probably is illegeal, however Israel is doing so to prevent its enemy from getting money.

Israel had no problem with funding Hamas during the 1970s in order to undermine the power and influence of the then dominant secular Palestinian forces led by Arafat.


what about those rocket attacks...some cease fire..

Hamas actually offered to restore the ceasefire, with Prime Minister Ismail Haniya stating that "We are interested in a ceasefire everywhere".

BBC link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5082820.stm)

[theraven]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+Jun 26 2006, 12:37 PM--> (Jazzratt @ Jun 26 2006, 12:37 PM)
[email protected] 26 2006, 12:30 PM
they've been "shooting the shit out of civilins from day one" what the F*** are you talkinga buot?
What the hell do you think 'collateral damage' is when applied to Israeli milatry actions? A few derelict buildings knocked down? Accidentally grazing a civilian?

Cretin. [/b]
collateral damage is when a civillain is killed during the course of military action (ie not on purpose).



So that must be why Dov Weissglas said what he said...

rolleyes.gif


he said his theory..doesn't mean its true...


The Israeli unilateral disengagement plan included Israeli forces maintaining control of the Gaza coastline and airspace, whilst reserving the "right" to invade and attack Gaza at any time and for any reason.

because they knew what would happen..mainly the rocket attacks, the gun running tunnels and so on.


Israel also retained control over Palestinian water supply, as well as Palestinian communication, electricity and sewage networks. Moreover, the existing customs arrangements with Israel - under which imports from Israel to Gaza are not taxed, whilst exports from Gaza to Israel are taxed and Israel collects customs duties on foreign products entering Gaza - continued to remain in force.

Israel maintains control of the utilities because the governmetn of gaza can't even run its police force atm, and yes they collect customs since it is still part of their country.


Indeed, independent foreign observers such as the International Committee of the Red Cross and Human Rights Watch, as well as many legal experts, have stated quite clearly that the disengagement from Gaza has not ended Israel's legal responsibility as an "occupying power" in Gaza.

awesome-i'm sure plenty of people disagree..


Added to all of that is the fact that Israel continued to build more illegal settlements in the West Bank, whilst strengthening the already existing settlements in that area of Occupied Palestine.


ok?



Hamas, just like when Arafat was in power, cannot control every single Palestinian militant in the OPTs, especially when Israel continues to harass and attack innocent Palestinian people day-in day-out.


if they expect to be treated like a government they have to act like one, that means controlling who attacks the enemy and when. if they can't do this then they are not worth negotiating with.



Stop ignoring my points.

I would like a proper response please.

you were asking me questions, i was posing an analgoy to you. you weren't asserting any fact, and you were making an appeal to emotion, i just turned it around.


The Doctors who saw the three dead boys (I say "saw" because only one was not dead on arrival) stated that they died of multiple gunshot wounds in the chest and neck.

I would imagine that someone who dies from soliders shooting them would have multiple gunshot wounds...


Moreover, ambulances were prevented from reaching the boys for a considerable amount of time, with the only boy who was alive at the scene dying of his wounds shortly after getting to the hospital.

because terrorist have a nasty habbit of using ambulances to transport guns and troops....


Any human being with a hint of compassion and dignity would find this incident (and it is only one of many) completely unacceptable, yet you believe that it somehow "had" to be done.

considering the alternative is to make it easier for terrorists to get into israel proper, I must say that while it is regrettable there is not much we can do, and honestly I am a little suspect. If this had happened in the middle of the street I would be more sympathetic, but from the account i remember reading the boys were A) wearing a back pack) and b) entering a clearly marked area where they were not allowed to be. this makes me a little suspect...


I have read that you are in fact a Jew (in another thread).

I don't recall mentionign this, and while it is true I susspect you are just assuming this.


Surely as a Jew (people who have suffered a hell of a lot of persecution), you cannot stand by and condone the actions being committed by fellow Jews in Israel?

I find it astonishing that you do.

well lets compare the most obvious example of jews and nazis with palestianisn and israelis...

how many jews blew up stores in germany?
how many jews killed pregenet german womenn and her chidlren while driving?
how many jews attacked germany at all?

answer that and you will see the difference.




I'm sorry but with peace must come justice, otherwise it means nothing.

Israel must realise that the illegal occupation of Palestinian land is an injustice that cannot go on any longer.

The Palestinian people, understandably so, will not accept a peace without justice.

Any such agreement would be illogical and utterly unacceptable.

and what do you think would be a "just" peace? and remember it has to be "just" for both sides



No.

Israel murdered a representative of the Palestinian people.

He was democratically elected into his position and his murder is by definition a war crime that should have been condemned by the international community.

Indeed, such an action will only serve to further anger and alienate the Palestinian people, who will understandably look for revenge.

Such a backdrop is not suitable for any "peace" talks with Israel.

he was kiled because he was a terrosit, not because of his elected positoin. I am sure of the arabs had the abilty they would kill olmert in a snap.



Why the hell should the Palestinian people maintain a ceasefire when at the very same time Israel continues to attack and kill innocent Palestinian people?

The one-sided and voluntary ceasefire was never replicated by Israel.

mostly because it was alway sbeing broken by the palestinains...



Another evasion of the facts that have been presented to you...

rolleyes.gif

what facts?


Obviously you didn't read the article I gave to you because every lie that is made in the article linked by yourself is refuted by the one I gave to you.

I'm sorry electronic infatida? i mind as well go to the hamas website.


Anyway, to sum it up:

The Israeli forces have claimed that the lethal explosion was not caused by a stray shell landing on the Gaza beach, but most probably by a mine placed there by Palestinian militants.

The problem with the Israeli cover-up (sorry, "investigation") is that to believe it you would have to accept two ridiculous assumptions:

Firstly - that Palestinian militants are so crazy that they consider it acceptable to lay a mine secretly in an area frequently visted by Palestinian families.


perhaps that was there intent..to stir up emotions. it wouldn't be the first time people pretended to be attacked by the enemy to use it as a reason to start a war (hitler and poland come to mind)


Secondly - that Palestinians are too primitive not to see the obvious futility of placing a single mine along many miles of coastline that could be used for a landing (or are we to assume that there are many more of these secret mines waiting to explode?).

I don't recall the article making any argument of the sort, just that it could not be a shell from those weapons that were being fired because they did not have tnt residue.


Moreover, to support its case, the Israelis also claimed that a piece of shrapnel removed by Doctors from an injured Palestinian transferred to an Israeli hospital was not from one its shells but more likely from a Palestinian explosive device.

yes, that is the claim from my article


Given that, unlike Israel, the Palestinians do not have any factories manufacturing mines or rockets and are forced instead to make them out of any spare metal parts they can get their hands on this evidence is worthless.


why? they aren't tryign to prove what the metal was, jsut that it wasn't the kind of artillery being used.


Palestinian witnesses have already said that the beach victims were standing close to taxis when the shell exploded. So if the shrapnel was not from an Israeli shell, it suggests only that the missile also damaged other metal objects - possibly the cars.

so we should take their world fo it :lol:


The main problem with the Israeli explanation, is that we must take their word for it.

yep-but consideirng the arlternviatve..


But, you see, how can we trust people who have been shown to have lied not only to the world, but also to their very own people and courts, repeatedly?

For example, just this week, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the army and Ministry of Defence to pull down several kilometres of the steel and concrete barrier they have erected on Palestinian land in the West Bank after it was proved that the "security considerations" behind the choice of the wall's route were actually bogus.

Official documents revealed that the wall was located there to allow for future expansion of nearby illegal Jewish settlements on yet more Palestinian land.

The army and government had concocted the lie and then stuck to it for more than two years. Chief Justice Aharon Barak called their systematic lying "a grave phenomenon".

oh and I am sure the arabs never lie (lol i bet their courts haven't told them so anyway)


Israel had no problem with funding Hamas during the 1970s in order to undermine the power and influence of the then dominant secular Palestinian forces led by Arafat.

the enemy of my enemy is my friend....




Hamas actually offered to restore the ceasefire, with Prime Minister Ismail Haniya stating that "We are interested in a ceasefire everywhere".

BBC link

so they'll claim to have a cease fire again while still launching rockets...thats definetly a good thing :lol:

[Intifada]

he said his theory..doesn't mean its true...


Oh my God/G-d/Allah...

:rolleyes:

The "official" Israeli explanation for the disengagement from Gaza was "Israeli security" and to show that they "want peace". Of course, as Weissglas confirmed, it was really about ensuring the destruction of any hope of a viable Palestinian state.


because they knew what would happen..mainly the rocket attacks, the gun running tunnels and so on.

Israel, straight after disengagement, continued to murder Palestinian leaders in Gaza, as well as "accidentally" killing innocent Palestinian civilians. The rocket attacks were inevitable because of this.

Gaza simply became One Big Prison (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF/5ba47a5c6cef541b802563e000493b8c/c8b873b597e6484e85256fd30063f0d5!OpenDocument)

Moreover, the Israelis continued their illegal activities in the West Bank.


Israel maintains control of the utilities because the governmetn of gaza can't even run its police force atm, and yes they collect customs since it is still part of their country

The Occupied Palestinian Territories are not "part of" Israel.

The existing customs arrangements are unfair towards Palestinians.


ok?


Even though the Israelis evacuated Gaza, they stole more Palestinian land in the West Bank to make way for illegal settlements.

Israel expands West Bank settlements (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1269880,00.html)

Indeed, the whole disengagement from Gaza acted as a great smokescreen for the continued building of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

The illegal wall/fence plays a big role in the expropriation of Palestinian land in the West Bank.


if they expect to be treated like a government they have to act like one, that means controlling who attacks the enemy and when. if they can't do this then they are not worth negotiating with.

Israel should stop provoking Palestinians into attacks.


you were asking me questions, i was posing an analgoy to you. you weren't asserting any fact, and you were making an appeal to emotion, i just turned it around.

You have either ignored the points I have made or given piss-poor responses to them.


I would imagine that someone who dies from soliders shooting them would have multiple gunshot wounds...

I think that the shoot-to-kill policy of the Israeli forces is costing innocent Palestinians their lives is plain to see.


because terrorist have a nasty habbit of using ambulances to transport guns and troops....

Wow...

You truly don't give a damn about innocent Palestinians.


If this had happened in the middle of the street I would be more sympathetic, but from the account i remember reading the boys were A) wearing a back pack) and b) entering a clearly marked area where they were not allowed to be. this makes me a little suspect...

I would like your evidence of that.


I don't recall mentionign this, and while it is true I susspect you are just assuming this.

Nope.

You stated it right here (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=51774&st=0&#entry1292099607).

I don't like to assume things.


well lets compare the most obvious example of jews and nazis with palestianisn and israelis...

I never compared the two.


how many jews killed pregenet german womenn and her chidlren while driving?

Can I just say, I condemn attacks on Israeli civilians.

Israel does the same thing to Palestinians, but on a more frequent basis (day-in day-out to be precise).

Pregnant Palestinian women are frequently attacked by the Israeli forces.

Read (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/511/511p14.htm) the story of Fatima Abed-Rabo.

UN fears over checkpoint births (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4274400.stm)

It is interesting to note that in 2004, after the criminal destruction of Palestinian homes in Rafah, Yosef Lapid (the only Holocaust survivor in the Israel cabinet a that time) said that the Israeli actions reminded him of Nazi policies against Jews.


and what do you think would be a "just" peace? and remember it has to be "just" for both sides

Israel withdraws completely from the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and allows for Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.

Israel can still exist, as Arafat conceded in 1988, on 78% of historic Palestine.

I would personally rather a one-state solution whereby both peoples can live in a Socialist state, but that is rather unrealistic at the moment.


he was kiled because he was a terrosit, not because of his elected positoin. I am sure of the arabs had the abilty they would kill olmert in a snap.

What "terrorist" thing did he commit?

Show me the evidence of his personal involvement in it.


mostly because it was alway sbeing broken by the palestinains...

Hamas kept to the truce, whilst Israel continued to attack Palestinians.


I'm sorry electronic infatida? i mind as well go to the hamas website.

What a stupid statement.

You couldn't even spell Intifada!

Why don't you refute the argument instead of making such an evasive and idioti comment.

By the way, I could say the same sort of thing about the article you posted and dismissed it like yourself, but I read it.


perhaps that was there intent..to stir up emotions. it wouldn't be the first time people pretended to be attacked by the enemy to use it as a reason to start a war (hitler and poland come to mind)

Evidence please?

Assumptions mean nothing.


oh and I am sure the arabs never lie (lol i bet their courts haven't told them so anyway)

The fact is innocent Palestinians were killed by an Israeli action.

That you are trying to blame Palestinians is quite pathetic.

Independent observers have said that Israel did it, whilst the Israelis do not want an independent UN investigation to occur.

I will believe the independent observers.


the enemy of my enemy is my friend....

And now you complain when it bites you in the ass...


so they'll claim to have a cease fire again while still launching rockets...thats definetly a good thing

They have stopped launching rockets.

[theraven]

Oh my God/G-d/Allah...

rolleyes.gif

The "official" Israeli explanation for the disengagement from Gaza was "Israeli security" and to show that they "want peace". Of course, as Weissglas confirmed, it was really about ensuring the destruction of any hope of a viable Palestinian state.


so by doing something they wanted (withdrawing) we somehow were being evil?

is there anything israel can do right?




Israel, straight after disengagement, continued to murder Palestinian leaders in Gaza, as well as "accidentally" killing innocent Palestinian civilians. The rocket attacks were inevitable because of this.

Gaza simply became One Big Prison

Moreover, the Israelis continued their illegal activities in the West Bank.

explain what your refering to here, what attacks, can you give me examples, becauser frankly i just don't trust your judgement.



The Occupied Palestinian Territories are not "part of" Israel.

The existing customs arrangements are unfair towards Palestinians.

they are under israels controll, israel controls the borders and the air space, thus they are part of israel.




Even though the Israelis evacuated Gaza, they stole more Palestinian land in the West Bank to make way for illegal settlements.

Israel expands West Bank settlements

Indeed, the whole disengagement from Gaza acted as a great smokescreen for the continued building of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

The illegal wall/fence plays a big role in the expropriation of Palestinian land in the West Bank.


1) the expansion of the settlemnets were nessacary for politics, since the disengangmetn wing couldn't do it wouth promisng the middle-right folks SOMEthing
2) the wall is legal and nessacary to stop terror attacks.



Israel should stop provoking Palestinians into attacks.

arabs should stop provking israel into attacks



I think that the shoot-to-kill policy of the Israeli forces is costing innocent Palestinians their lives is plain to see.

this is due to the fact that it will cost israeli lives otherwise. given that you think they are at awr the policy is logical.



I never compared the two.

I know, but that is a common comparsion among your ilk..



Can I just say, I condemn attacks on Israeli civilians.

bravo, i am against on purpose attacks on palestien civilaisn as well.


Israel does the same thing to Palestinians, but on a more frequent basis (day-in day-out to be precise).


agian to repeating, israeli attacks are on military targets....


Pregnant Palestinian women are frequently attacked by the Israeli forces.

Read the story of Fatima Abed-Rabo.

UN fears over checkpoint births

It is interesting to note that in 2004, after the criminal destruction of Palestinian homes in Rafah, Yosef Lapid (the only Holocaust survivor in the Israel cabinet a that time) said that the Israeli actions reminded him of Nazi policies against Jews.


1) again the palestiaisn women are suffering because of the tactics adopted by the terrorist
2) except the differece was the israeli policies are out of a securtiy concern, the nazi policy was out of pure racism.


Israel withdraws completely from the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and allows for Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.


so essantily let the arabs take over israel...yes that'll happen :lmao:


Israel can still exist, as Arafat conceded in 1988, on 78% of historic Palestine.


under those conditiosn it wouldn't exist at all..





What "terrorist" thing did he commit?

Show me the evidence of his personal involvement in it.


I'm sure whatever article was pirnted would indicate as such, its nto really disputed



Hamas kept to the truce, whilst Israel continued to attack Palestinians.


evidence please?


What a stupid statement.

You couldn't even spell Intifada!

Why don't you refute the argument instead of making such an evasive and idioti comment.

By the way, I could say the same sort of thing about the article you posted and dismissed it like yourself, but I read it.


that was over a different issue, and mine came from a reputabel news service not an internet propgad site



Evidence please?

Assumptions mean nothing.


how do you prove intent exactly?



The fact is innocent Palestinians were killed by an Israeli action.

That you are trying to blame Palestinians is quite pathetic.

Independent observers have said that Israel did it, whilst the Israelis do not want an independent UN investigation to occur.

I will believe the independent observers.


who are independent souces? who is realy independent?



And now you complain when it bites you in the ass...


no, we just are going to fight thme as well.



They have stopped launching rockets.

for now...

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 12:25 AM
so by doing something they wanted (withdrawing) we somehow were being evil?

Israel only evacuated illegal settlers from the Gaza Strip.

Israel maintains control of Gaza's airspace, coastline and border, so how in hell can the Palestinians control Gaza?

Moreover, as we are seeing right now, Israel also reserved the "right" to invade and attack the Gaza Strip whenever she wants.

As Dov Weissglas said, the unilateral disengagement from Gaza was all about destroying any hope for a viable Palestinian state.

Maybe I should repost his comment:

Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process.

When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.


explain what your refering to here, what attacks, can you give me examples, becauser frankly i just don't trust your judgement.

I see you ignored the B'Tselem report on disengagement...

Anyway, here is what happened after the Gaza withdrawal:

More Israeli raids as Palestinians bury dead (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4204.shtml)


they are under israels controll, israel controls the borders and the air space, thus they are part of israel.

Illegally so.

At least you admit now that the Gaza withdrawal did not end the illegal occupation.


1) the expansion of the settlemnets were nessacary for politics, since the disengangmetn wing couldn't do it wouth promisng the middle-right folks SOMEthing

There is no excuse for such an illegal practice.

The building of illegal settlements is as big a barrier to peace as suicide bombings.


2) the wall is legal and nessacary to stop terror attacks.

The wall would be a legitimate form of protection if it was built inside Israel, within the internationally recognised border - the Green Line established after the 1948-49 war.

The wall could then be as forbidding as the Israelis want. Such a wall would maximize security, and there would be no international protest or violation of international law.

However, the real purpose of the wall is to take yet more Palestinian land (47% of the West Bank to be precise), whilst forcing the Palestinians to live in cut-up community dungeons, similar to yet probably worse than the South African bantustans.

Palestinian villages and towns near the Wall have become isolated ghettos where movement in and out is limited, if not impossible, thus severing travel for work, health, education, and visits to friends and family.

For example, in the 18 communities surrounded into an enclave in the Tulkarem district, the inability to travel due to the Wall and Israeli military "closures" made the unemployment rate up rise from 18% in 2000 to an estimated 78% in the spring of 2003.

In Qalqiliya, where the Wall seals the city with one Israeli military controlled checkpoint, nearly 10% of the 42000 residents have been forced to leave their homes due to the city's imprisonment, closure of the market, and inability to find work.

Moreover, the wall strengthens the existence of the illegal settlements in the West Bank by bringing them into Israel's "controlled area".

The wall has also claimed the most fertile Palestinian land in the West Bank and also extends Israeli control over critical water resources.

That the wall is illegal was confirmed by the International Court of Justice in July of 2004 (as well as by the Israeli Supreme Court, consistently), although Israel simply ignored their calls to dismantle parts of the wall that contravened international law.

I mean, since when did Israel give a shit for "International Law" anyway?


arabs should stop provking israel into attacks

Well maybe Israel should stop the illegal occupation.


agian to repeating, israeli attacks are on military targets....

Yes, such as Palestinian homes, water and power supplies which help keep life-saving equpiment in hospitals running...

That is collective punishment and is a war crime.


2) except the differece was the israeli policies are out of a securtiy concern, the nazi policy was out of pure racism.

Zionism is a form racism.


so essantily let the arabs take over israel...yes that'll happen :lmao:

No.

Israel will exist on 78% of historic Palestine, whilst the Palestinians will get a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.


I'm sure whatever article was pirnted would indicate as such, its nto really disputed

:lol:

Awesome evidence I must say...


evidence please?

Maybe the fact that for 16 months Hamas never attacked Israel nor sent any suicide bombers to kill innocent people?


that was over a different issue, and mine came from a reputabel news service not an internet propgad site

News sites are also biased in most cases.

Look at Fox "News".


how do you prove intent exactly?

So you have no evidence?

Fair enough.


no, we just are going to fight thme as well.

Them as in the general Palestinian population.

[theraven]

srael only evacuated illegal settlers from the Gaza Strip.

Israel maintains control of Gaza's airspace, coastline and border, so how in hell can the Palestinians control Gaza?

Moreover, as we are seeing right now, Israel also reserved the "right" to invade and attack the Gaza Strip whenever she wants.

As Dov Weissglas said, the unilateral disengagement from Gaza was all about destroying any hope for a viable Palestinian state.

Maybe I should repost his comment:

Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process.

When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.

yes israel does maitnaitn border and air control, however this was presumably going to be a temprorayr meausre since the hamas govenrment ( as i stated before) was not able to do this.



I see you ignored the B'Tselem report on disengagement...

Anyway, here is what happened after the Gaza withdrawal:

More Israeli raids as Palestinians bury dead

i'm sorry but how can you expect me to take that seriously? first off the refer to the IDF as the IOF, second of all they don't specify the reasons israel gives fro the attacks, nor does it attemtp toe examien them. it is simply bltant propaganda.



Illegally so.

At least you admit now that the Gaza withdrawal did not end the illegal occupation.

israel retains external controls, it does not however praticapite actively internally.



There is no excuse for such an illegal practice.

The building of illegal settlements is as big a barrier to peace as suicide bombings.

the settlments don't murder random innocents..sorry


The wall would be a legitimate form of protection if it was built inside Israel, within the internationally recognised border - the Green Line established after the 1948-49 war.

The wall could then be as forbidding as the Israelis want. Such a wall would maximize security, and there would be no international protest or violation of international law.

However, the real purpose of the wall is to take yet more Palestinian land (47% of the West Bank to be precise), whilst forcing the Palestinians to live in cut-up community dungeons, similar to yet probably worse than the South African bantustans.

Palestinian villages and towns near the Wall have become isolated ghettos where movement in and out is limited, if not impossible, thus severing travel for work, health, education, and visits to friends and family.

For example, in the 18 communities surrounded into an enclave in the Tulkarem district, the inability to travel due to the Wall and Israeli military "closures" made the unemployment rate up rise from 18% in 2000 to an estimated 78% in the spring of 2003.

In Qalqiliya, where the Wall seals the city with one Israeli military controlled checkpoint, nearly 10% of the 42000 residents have been forced to leave their homes due to the city's imprisonment, closure of the market, and inability to find work.

Moreover, the wall strengthens the existence of the illegal settlements in the West Bank by bringing them into Israel's "controlled area".

The wall has also claimed the most fertile Palestinian land in the West Bank and also extends Israeli control over critical water resources.

That the wall is illegal was confirmed by the International Court of Justice in July of 2004 (as well as by the Israeli Supreme Court, consistently), although Israel simply ignored their calls to dismantle parts of the wall that contravened international law.

I mean, since when did Israel give a shit for "International Law" anyway?


the security fence is built for the most part in the most strategic parts ot protect israeli citizens. thus if a settlemnt is on the border they probably would include it. likewise considering its value water would also logically be inclueded. in other places the reason for builiding it outside the border would be for defenesive purposese, ie higher ground. It is not meant as a permanetn barrier, just a secuirty meausre.

the Interneaitnaol court isn't worth the paper its laws arre written on

israels high court ruled in certian cases the wall was in place illegeal and ordered it moved back, which (i believe) it was.



Well maybe Israel should stop the illegal occupation.

maybe if they werent worried that once they did dthey'd have to worry about rocket attacks day in and day out they would.



Yes, such as Palestinian homes, water and power supplies which help keep life-saving equpiment in hospitals running...

That is collective punishment and is a war crime.


the attacks on homes is due to the fact that those homes also double as base for the terrorist as well as manufacutring plants. israel does not choose the loacations that these things happen in. also, the cutting of water and power is a matter of stregtic importnace not of ocllective punishemnt. it is being done to deny the enemy comfort so that their soliders are less effective. this is basic military strategy.



Zionism is a form racism.


No it is not, zionism is the desire to have a jewish state. some zionists may be racist, but they do not consitute either a majortiy nor a powerufl minoirty.



No.

Israel will exist on 78% of historic Palestine, whilst the Palestinians will get a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

well your forgetting three things

1)hisotric palestine includes jordan, which is much bigger nthe israel
2) most of the really good land is in the west bank and gaza. indeed much of the land israel gets is the negev
3) didn't you also want the right of return for arabs who claim to be desencdded from those who left israel proper? this would of course cause israel to cease to exist (which is probably the point..)


Maybe the fact that for 16 months Hamas never attacked Israel nor sent any suicide bombers to kill innocent people?

of course this would have nothing to do with the effectivness of israels policies keeping thme out, and ignoring the rocket attacks and essaitnly attributing altuism to what is probably ineptness and disorgnaizaion.





News sites are also biased in most cases.

Look at Fox "News".

any reporting will be biased-however there is an acceptbale devaiton. II does not fit this deviation



So you have no evidence?

Fair enough.


oh no ih ave the minutes from hamas's top secret meeting on the matter :rolleeys:




Them as in the general Palestinian population.

no them as in the terrorists

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:39 AM
yes israel does maitnaitn border and air control, however this was presumably going to be a temprorayr meausre since the hamas govenrment ( as i stated before) was not able to do this.
Now you are simply lying or showing your ignorance of the conflict.

I believe it is more likely to be the latter.

Hamas were not in power at the time of the Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip.


i'm sorry but how can you expect me to take that seriously? first off the refer to the IDF as the IOF, second of all they don't specify the reasons israel gives fro the attacks, nor does it attemtp toe examien them.

The IDF does not "defend" anything.


it is simply bltant propaganda

Yup.

The deaths of innocent people is mere "propaganda"...

:(


israel retains external controls, it does not however praticapite actively internally.

What!

:lol:

At least 24 Palestinians were killed by Israel in Gaza alone last month, before the invasion began after Shalit was taken prisoner.


the settlments don't murder random innocents..sorry

I never argued that they did.

I argued, correctly, that the settlements Israel has built in the West Bank are there illegally, because they exist in the Occupied Palestinian Territories instead of inside Israel's internationally recognised borders.

As such, they are a massive obstacle to peace.

Indeed, the settlers frequently abuse and attack (often resulting in fatalities) Palestinians.

Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150462005)

Moreover, the settlers attack and destroy Palestinian property. They destroy crops cut down/burn Palestinian olive trees, contaminate Palestinian water supplies etc.

The settlers even attack Israeli/international peace activists.

Amnesty International Report (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rsd/rsddocview.html?tbl=RSDCOI&id=447ff7ab3e)


the security fence is built for the most part in the most strategic parts ot protect israeli citizens. thus if a settlemnt is on the border they probably would include it.

This (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rsd/rsddocview.html?tbl=RSDCOI&id=447ff7ab3e) report clearly shows that the construction of the illegal wall has "stepped up" in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, whilst the illegal settlements have been "expanded".

Moreover, to make way for this illegal construction, the Israelis have "seized and detroyed" large areas of Palestinian land.

The Palestinian people inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem have also been "increasingly confined to restricted areas and denied freedom of movement between towns and villages within the Occupied Territories".

Moreover, many Palestinians have been "cut off from their farmland, their main source of livelihood" as well as being "prevented from accessing their workplaces, education and health facilities, and other services".

No human being would accept such disgusting treatment of a whole population, yet you wonder why the Palestinians resort to resisting Israeli aggression.


likewise considering its value water would also logically be inclueded.

Yes, at the expense of the Palestinian people.


It is not meant as a permanetn barrier, just a secuirty meausre.

If it was for "security purposes" it would and should be built inside Israel, otherwise it is an illegal construction.


the Interneaitnaol court isn't worth the paper its laws arre written on

Why am I not surprised that a Zionist couldn't give a shit about International Law and Human Rights?

:rolleyes:


israels high court ruled in certian cases the wall was in place illegeal and ordered it moved back, which (i believe) it was.

No.

Israel has not dismantled the parts of the wall that have been deemed to contravene International Law and Human Rights.


maybe if they werent worried that once they did dthey'd have to worry about rocket attacks day in and day out they would.

Israel illegally occupied Palestinian land long before any rockets or even suicide bombers entered Israel.


the attacks on homes is due to the fact that those homes also double as base for the terrorist as well as manufacutring plants. israel does not choose the loacations that these things happen in.

The mass destruction of the homes of ordinary Palestinian people is a gross violation of Human Rights, surprisingly enough.

Under the rubble: House demolition and destruction of land and property (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150332004)

Indeed, it is a war crime.


also, the cutting of water and power is a matter of stregtic importnace not of ocllective punishemnt

How does life-saving Hospital equipment run?

It most definitely is a collective punishment.


No it is not, zionism is the desire to have a jewish state.

The superior claim to national territory is the attribution of a superior quality to members of the national group.

The denial of this claim to certain other ethnic groups is the attribution of an inferior status to their members.

Indeed, the acquisition of citizenship by descent is a purely biological mechanism: it is racist in the general sense, but it is also closest to the biological ideologies first described by the term "racism".

As such, I can state that Zionism is racism.


1)hisotric palestine includes jordan, which is much bigger nthe israel

I am talking about the land that constitutes the state of Israel proper and the Occupied Territories.


2) most of the really good land is in the west bank and gaza.

Most of the good land is in the West Bank, which is why the Israelis are strengthening their hold on that particular area of land.


3) didn't you also want the right of return for arabs who claim to be desencdded from those who left israel proper? this would of course cause israel to cease to exist (which is probably the point..)


The right to return is enshrined in International Law and is recognised by the UN.


ignoring the rocket attacks and essaitnly attributing altuism to what is probably ineptness and disorgnaizaion.

The rocket attacks were not carried out by Hamas, but other organisations such as Islamic Jihad.


any reporting will be biased-however there is an acceptbale devaiton. II does not fit this deviation

Doesn't matter.

You have ignored every independent report I have linked so far.


no them as in the terrorists

Cutting off the population's electricity supply is a war crime that targets innocent people in general.