Democracy In Cuba And The Ussr

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Recently I came across these articles and thought they'd make an interesting topic. I will post this exact same topic on a conservative forum and post some of their reactions if this topic goes cold.

The first is about how democracy in Cuba works

Link here (http://www.angelfire.com/pr/red/cuba/democracy_in_cuba.htm)

Here's a passage

People's Power


I visited one of the local PP headquarters in one region of Havana (Havana is divided into regions, each of which elects its own PP assembly). This region was divided in turn into 22 electoral districts, each comprising about four square blocks, and including about eight CDRs. Each district elects one representative to the regional PP.

Each CDR calls a meeting of the citizens on its block to discuss and make nominations for the election to the local PP. These are discussed among the CDRs in the district, and eventually the final list of candidates is drawn up. There must be at least two candidates and fewer than eight nominated. The elections are by direct and secret ballot of the citizens in the district.

The CP doesn't nominate candidates. Candidates are nominated and elected by their neighbours. Anyone who is over 16 years old can stand.

The style of the elections is quite different from those in the US or Australia, where big money dominates. A short biography of each candidate is posted in public places in the district. This, and discussions among the citizens, are the only "campaigning" done, so the candidates don't have to raise any money to campaign.

The PP elects a small body made up of a president and a vice-president and some other posts, who are paid for working full time as the day-by-day government of the region.

Each continues to receive the wages they were getting in their jobs before they were elected, and their jobs are held open for them for when they leave the PP. They are elected for a term of two and a half years.


Accountability

Another feature of the electoral system is that everyone elected at any level of government may be recalled at any time by his or her electors. This happens fairly often, from what we were told. In one region of Havana, every president was recalled since 1976, except the present one.

In addition to the 22 elected members of the PP I visited, there are nine other members appointed by the mass organisations, one each for the CP, the Federation of Cuban Women, the CDRs, the trade unions and so on. The PP tends to work by consensus.


Here's the link to Democracy in the USSR

Link Here (http://www.kibristasosyalistgercek.net/english/stalin/SovietLocalGovernment-1945.html)

Here's some passages



Prior to the Stalin Constitution of 1936 Soviet citizens only chose their local (town or village) representatives, who in turn elected some of their number to the rayon soviet. Indirect election of this kind went on right up to the Supreme Soviet, but since 1936 there has been direct election to all soviets, guaranteed in Article 134 of the Stalin Constitution. This declares that the Deputies to all soviets “are elected by the electors on the basis of universal, equal and direct suffrage, by secret ballot.”

Elections to city, town, and village soviets take place every two years—and every four years to higher bodies.

Prior to 1936, elections had been “open”—by show of hands at relatively small gatherings, usually in the factories or other places of work.
Since 1936 the elections have been by secret ballot, and on a territorial basis as in Britain, in place of the industrial basis. Factory units still meet as a kind of discussion group, and are very active in stimulating election interest. They often nominate candidates and submit requests to be dealt with by the soviet.

The people previously excluded from the franchise (priests, etc.) now have the vote, two categories alone excepted. This broadening of the democratic basis of Soviet society is assured in Article 135 of the Constitution:—

[Rawthentic]

Good links and interesting as well. The problem I have with Cuba and Castro is that candidates are Castro-approved, no matter who gets elected.

[Free Left]

Good links and interesting as well. The problem I have with Cuba and Castro is that candidates are Castro-approved, no matter who gets elected.

Well, he dosen't want a bunch of US adoring Capitalists to come to opwer but I do see your point; Communism (or any kind of Socialism) needs true Democracy.

[SmokingMan]

Cuba democracy, by constitution is like that, but the really is other, Fidel says "now you are gone be the Industry Minister"... and that's a fact.. not dispute... Fidel already know who is gone be his substitute... that's democracy ??? that's pure shit

SmokingMan

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 10:08 PM
Good links and interesting as well. The problem I have with Cuba and Castro is that candidates are Castro-approved, no matter who gets elected.
Not necessarily, look at this


The CP doesn't nominate candidates. Candidates are nominated and elected by their neighbours. Anyone who is over 16 years old can stand.

In anycase I don't think it's really true democracy because there is no way fidel could stay in power for 50 years.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 10:08 PM
Good links and interesting as well. The problem I have with Cuba and Castro is that candidates are Castro-approved, no matter who gets elected.
Not necessarily, look at this


The CP doesn't nominate candidates. Candidates are nominated and elected by their neighbours. Anyone who is over 16 years old can stand.

In anycase I don't think it's really true democracy because there is no way fidel could stay in power for 50 years.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 10:08 PM
Good links and interesting as well. The problem I have with Cuba and Castro is that candidates are Castro-approved, no matter who gets elected.
Not necessarily, look at this


The CP doesn't nominate candidates. Candidates are nominated and elected by their neighbours. Anyone who is over 16 years old can stand.

In anycase I don't think it's really true democracy because there is no way fidel could stay in power for 50 years.

[Schleppy]

Yeah, from what I've heard Fidel isn't nearly as popular there as he was post-revolution. Unfortunately, most Capitalist media interprets that as reflective of socialism's popularity. Go figure.

[Schleppy]

Yeah, from what I've heard Fidel isn't nearly as popular there as he was post-revolution. Unfortunately, most Capitalist media interprets that as reflective of socialism's popularity. Go figure.

[Schleppy]

Yeah, from what I've heard Fidel isn't nearly as popular there as he was post-revolution. Unfortunately, most Capitalist media interprets that as reflective of socialism's popularity. Go figure.

[bayano]

honestly, i think that discussing soviet and cuban democracy shouldnt be discussed together- i dont think the soviet union was democratic at all, especially during stalin. but cuba includes many components. i think the more interesting stuff is about cuban worker democracy, or the power of neighborhoods on basic issues like transit housing and policing

[bayano]

honestly, i think that discussing soviet and cuban democracy shouldnt be discussed together- i dont think the soviet union was democratic at all, especially during stalin. but cuba includes many components. i think the more interesting stuff is about cuban worker democracy, or the power of neighborhoods on basic issues like transit housing and policing

[bayano]

honestly, i think that discussing soviet and cuban democracy shouldnt be discussed together- i dont think the soviet union was democratic at all, especially during stalin. but cuba includes many components. i think the more interesting stuff is about cuban worker democracy, or the power of neighborhoods on basic issues like transit housing and policing

[Karl Marx's Camel]

If I recall correctly, if a cuban don't go to a CDR meeting, it is likely you won't be promoted at work and such. That's a big reason why some people go to these meetings.

You know we can ask Cubans what they think, if they believe they have democracy, people's rule. I think we all know what most people will answer...

I asked a cuban friend of mine what he thought. He said it looks pretty good, officially, but in reality, it's not as free as it looks on paper and ink.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

If I recall correctly, if a cuban don't go to a CDR meeting, it is likely you won't be promoted at work and such. That's a big reason why some people go to these meetings.

You know we can ask Cubans what they think, if they believe they have democracy, people's rule. I think we all know what most people will answer...

I asked a cuban friend of mine what he thought. He said it looks pretty good, officially, but in reality, it's not as free as it looks on paper and ink.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

If I recall correctly, if a cuban don't go to a CDR meeting, it is likely you won't be promoted at work and such. That's a big reason why some people go to these meetings.

You know we can ask Cubans what they think, if they believe they have democracy, people's rule. I think we all know what most people will answer...

I asked a cuban friend of mine what he thought. He said it looks pretty good, officially, but in reality, it's not as free as it looks on paper and ink.

[Gojo]

I don't get it. You guys realy don't have a clue on what communism is all about. The dictatorship of the working people means that one can't allow anybody to participate in elections. And when we talk about Cuba; HOW COULD FIDEL EVER ALLOW CAPITALIST AND US INFLUENCED PEOPLE CANDIDATE ON THE ELECTIONS. that man is trying to keep together the one thing capitalists and US HATE most of all; communism. I think we should give him credit for succeding so far and stop bullshiting on FEW flaws and problems Cuba has.

What the fuck is wrong with you? How old are you people? Are you hooked on the net from a mental institution? Or are you simply all from Miami?

[Gojo]

They say a picture is worth more than a thousand words..look up there and you'll see what I'm talkin about

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:36 PM
You know we can ask Cubans what they think, if they believe they have democracy, people's rule. I think we all know what most people will answer...

I asked a cuban friend of mine what he thought. He said it looks pretty good, officially, but in reality, it's not as free as it looks on paper and ink.
And CdL of the FPM posted an exchange between Revleft members and a Cuban friend of his months ago, and many of the facts that that person mentioned were in direct contradiction to some of those coming from yourself or Smokingman. It would be inappropriate to accuse anybody of lying, as nothing's certain on the internet, but I do not see how your "sources" should be claimed as absolute truth.

[elmo sez]

Fidel in power for 40 years - I dont think you can use this as an idicator of corruption , I mean if you take Ireland for example , Eamonn De Valera - Irish nationalist - one of the leaders of the 1916 rising - Was elected Prime Minister (Taoiseach) in 1932 and held the postion until 1948 and was reelecteed in 1951 and lasted until 1959 when he retired as Prime Minister( Taoiseach ). Only to be elected as President, he retired as President in 1973 .

Thats nearly 41 years of consecutive power. And im pretty sure the elections were fair.

I think they should send someone there , someone completely independant - to tell the world once and for all weither or not this level of democracy really exists there . Send the EU or Jimmy C for gods sakes . I mean he helped out in Venezula

lol

[Karl Marx's Camel]

And CdL of the FPM posted an exchange between Revleft members and a Cuban friend of his months ago, and many of the facts that that person mentioned were in direct contradiction to some of those coming from yourself or Smokingman. It would be inappropriate to accuse anybody of lying, as nothing's certain on the internet, but I do not see how your "sources" should be claimed as absolute truth.
You mean the Cuban who said something along the lines of "these questions does not like me. Don't ask political question".

[SocialistGenius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 10:14 PM
Cuba democracy, by constitution is like that, but the really is other, Fidel says "now you are gone be the Industry Minister"... and that's a fact.. not dispute... Fidel already know who is gone be his substitute... that's democracy ??? that's pure shit

SmokingMan
So the constitution is simply not followed? Can people not sue in the courts for unconstitutional disenfranchisement of voters, which is what happens when votes are subverted for appointments.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Okay, but how do western democracies work?
They aren't superior at all.
In a bi-partisan country as the USA, both parties are pretty much the same except one favours stricter federal rulings, and the other doesn't. Those in third parties don't have much influence because they don't have many members in the frame work, and they don't have much money for campaigns. As with proportional representation in Europe, two parties have the most money and all the members who are elected from other parties must side with the main two parties. In all the parties decide the policy, though the people may make proposals the elected members decide if they'll allow it, or how far they are willing to go with some of the measures. None of these people are revokable or accountable, you have to wait some years until they are gone.

Not to mention, with the presidency in the USA the appointed board of electors (The electoral College) decides who becomes president, so really theres no point in voting.

In the USA the dominant ideology is Capitalism, in the USSR and Cuba its Communism. The candidates for capitalist countries are all party approved, in Cuba and the USSR, they're Communist Party approved except you could get rid of some people and replace them faster. In whole they are almost the same, except different procedures in going about elections, and in Cuba and the USSR money on campaigns doesn't/didn't have an impact.

In short anyone who tells you that the west is the bastion of democracy is full of shit.

[Gojo]

What have this discussion came to?! discussing which is better: Capitalism or Communism? I think we should all know the answer to that.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What have this discussion came to?! discussing which is better: Capitalism or Communism? I think we should all know the answer to that.

:rolleyes:

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 05:58 PM

And CdL of the FPM posted an exchange between Revleft members and a Cuban friend of his months ago, and many of the facts that that person mentioned were in direct contradiction to some of those coming from yourself or Smokingman. It would be inappropriate to accuse anybody of lying, as nothing's certain on the internet, but I do not see how your "sources" should be claimed as absolute truth.
You mean the Cuban who said something along the lines of "these questions does not like me. Don't ask political question".
No, that's not what he said. Some other guy *said* that some Cuban had told him that(so, it's probably fact to you :rolleyes: ).

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Hmm unlike you I tend to generally trust people here at RevLeft, unless there is a reason not to...

[Wanted Man]

Well, you either trust everybody, or nobody(unless they're obvious frauds or trolls). If the statements made by two alleged Cuban citizens currently living there are completely and entirely contradictory, you can't simply say "Well, I tend to trust people on the internet, you don't, so I win" while only ever presenting the side of one of these Cubans in pretty much every other topic.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 03:44 PM
What have this discussion came to?! discussing which is better: Capitalism or Communism? I think we should all know the answer to that.
The point I was trying to make is that if the 1st world can call itself democratic, well so can Cuba!

But on a higher theorectical level the 1st world's ruling ideology in the main parties is capitalistsm, and the bureaucrats of them decide who they'll allow to the public vote on, whereas in Cuba the dominant ideology is proletarian inspired and the bureaucrats in the Communist Party decide who they'll let the public vote on.

But you can't really say Cuba has a proletarian democracy because that requires the whole of the proletariat to decide who will run in elections, how the means of production are organized and who will be candidates instead of the party deciding for the public.

Bottom line proletarian "inspired" democracy, not proletarian democracy.

[Marx_was_right!]

I don't get it. You guys realy don't have a clue on what communism is all about. The dictatorship of the working people means that one can't allow anybody to participate in elections. And when we talk about Cuba; HOW COULD FIDEL EVER ALLOW CAPITALIST AND US INFLUENCED PEOPLE CANDIDATE ON THE ELECTIONS. that man is trying to keep together the one thing capitalists and US HATE most of all; communism. I think we should give him credit for succeding so far and stop bullshiting on FEW flaws and problems Cuba has.
Marx wanted to liberate the workers. How is a dicatatorship over the workers liberation?

[Gojo]

Originally posted by Marx_was_right!@Jun 27 2006, 07:13 AM

Marx wanted to liberate the workers. How is a dicatatorship over the workers liberation?
For the last time, it is the dictatorship of the workers over all, including the minority of workers who constantly fail to understand what the communism is all about.
If you don't like the sound of the word DICTATORSHIP then you're no leftist at all. It's all about the dictatorship, it's "the axis" of communism. :redstar: :hammer: :redstar:

[Marx_was_right!]

Originally posted by Gojo+Jun 27 2006, 07:29 AM--> (Gojo @ Jun 27 2006, 07:29 AM)
Marx_was_right!@Jun 27 2006, 07:13 AM

Marx wanted to liberate the workers. How is a dicatatorship over the workers liberation?
For the last time, it is the dictatorship of the workers over all, including the minority of workers who constantly fail to understand what the communism is all about.
If you don't like the sound of the word DICTATORSHIP then you're no leftist at all. It's all about the dictatorship, it's "the axis" of communism. :redstar: :hammer: :redstar: [/b]
Then I no leftist if lefism is means DICTATORSHIP. I want freedom. I swtiching to capitalism.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

For the last time, it is the dictatorship of the workers over all
You have yourself said you do not like multi-party democracy. You have said you like pure dictatorship, and want more of it. You do not care if Russians want to go back to the USSR times or not. You just want dictatorship, even if the people do not like it.

[norwegian commie]

Then I no leftist if lefism is means DICTATORSHIP. I want freedom. I swtiching to capitalism

mr marxwasright... Didnt marx talk abot the dictatorship of the proletariate? It works like this:

it is the dictatorship of the workers over all, including the minority of workers who constantly fail to understand what the communism is all about.

Instead of the borgueise ruling over the proletariate, the proletariate shall rule over the bourgeise. This will not be eternal of anything... But this is a stage the world has to have. Then we have a worldwide revolution and can start our stateless, moneyless society in harmony with nature

By the way, marx said that he dictatorship of the proletariate was the highest form of democracy.


But you can't really say Cuba has a proletarian democracy because that requires the whole of the proletariat to decide who will run in elections, how the means of production are organized and who will be candidates instead of the party deciding for the public.

Bottom line proletarian "inspired" democracy, not proletarian democracy.

well actually the national(narsjonalforsamlingenon norwegian, dont know its name on english) anyway that is one of the highest athorities in Cuba and elections there aree done without the envolvement of the communist party. Actually the communist party members are not allowed to participate.

¨The memebers are chosen entirely by the people.
im not sure of the terms on english of what i am about to say... but here goes.
The commune and provins elections are a high power, alsoe an expretion for cubas decentralised peoples power.

elections are for persons not partyes (wich is why there is only one party in cuba)
there are common secret elections

they have the recponsibility for schools, daycare, helthcare, streets, traffic, culture, sports, and public affares.

The ones deciding this is chosen and elected bye the people.
Everybody can participate, therefor its not the dictatorship of the proletariate and not the highest form of democracy.

By the way, we want to create a communist society and on the way to that society a socialist society right?

Well, we cant create that in periods of 4 or 5 years. Therfor the western model for democracy is not an option for communists. Fidel and his asosiates meditated on the question. They did not want a sovjet-like govern but something moore democratic. The result was cuba and i for one think they have done an exellent job and deserve our appreciation.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

By the way, we want to create a communist society and on the way to that society a socialist society right?

Well, we cant create that in periods of 4 or 5 years. Therfor the western model for democracy is not an option for communists.

If the people continue to elect socialist/communist leaders, why not? Are you afraid that the people might not elect socialist/communist leaders, that they will change their mind in a few years?

Capitalism exists even under (bourgeois) democracy. Who is to say socialism cannot be created in a multiparty democracy, if capitalism can? It's up to the people. We have seen that in for example Bolivia.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by NWOG+--> (NWOG)You have yourself said you do not like multi-party democracy. You have said you like pure dictatorship, and want more of it. You do not care if Russians want to go back to the USSR times or not. You just want dictatorship, even if the people do not like it[/b]

"Multi-party" democracy is bullshit because there are always two main parties (Liberals, Conservatives) and the rest of the parties have allie with either or.
You can find Liberal-Conservatives in the Conservatives parties, and Conservative-Liberals in the Conservative Party, you see there is this are which connects both of the parties. In Communist Party headed states like Cuba you had left and right factions in the same party. And both Communist and Capitalist parties elect their own members to run, where you--the public vote on them.

So the socialist states like Cuba and USSR have the same standard of democracy as the Western Capitalist countries do.


norwegain commie
well actually the national(narsjonalforsamlingenon norwegian, dont know its name on english) anyway that is one of the highest athorities in Cuba and elections there aree done without the envolvement of the communist party. Actually the communist party members are not allowed to participate.

I don't know what you mean by saying they don't participate, that they can't vote in PP elections?

From what I've heard the people get to nominate representatives for PPs, but those people don't get to run in the elections unless they are approved by the Communist Party.

Also though anyone can join the Communist Party in Cuba (if you agree with its platform and principles ofcourse), the people don't get to choose who will have the offices in the Communist Party, the party appoints people. And the PPs try to make appeals to the Communist Party-- who decide how far they'll take the peoples demands if at all. Much like in the west when you sign petitions and they go to congresses to vote on--they decide how far they are willing to take it if at all.

Again Cuba has the same standards the "free" west on democracy just different mechanistics.

On another note inorder to have proletarian democracy there musn't be a party at all who approves members to run in elections, or has final says in everything.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 12:33 PM
You just want dictatorship, even if the people do not like it.
They always like it, if it's the dictatorship of the working man, common man, the 90% of the population. Tyrants, since Nero to Stalin, Hitler or Franco gave the meaning of dictatorship a bad name.

Multi-party democracy=Capitalism=state Capitalism=world globalisation=neo-liberal democracy = THE RULE OF THE WEALTHY AND THE SMALLEST MINORITY THAT HAS THE POWER.

[Avtomatov]

Mao Tse Tung states in "Interview with the British Journalist James
Bertram" (October 25, 1937), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 53. *". . .the
principle of unity between the army and the people, which means
maintaining a discipline that forbids the slightest violation of the people's
interests, conducting propaganda among the masses, . . .and
suppressing the traitors and collaborators who do harm to the army and
the people." Ubiquitous patriotism and nationalism are to be
demonstrated through everyday signs and symbols: the flying of flags,
the wearing and carrying of national symbols, the adoption of gestures,
catch-phrases and slogans, and regular mass demonstrations of
solidarity. Education and re-education programmes develop and
reinforce the citizens' subordination to state power. The people follow
the routine because they have internalised the various mechanisms used
to demonstrate obedience and conformity. The political advantage to the
leader is that this internalisation can often seem to result from the
individual’s free choice.


This applies to a democracy too. Multi-party democracy is not the rule of the people. The media is privately funded by corporate interests. IMO, I would take Stalin over Bush any day.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

They always like it, if it's the dictatorship of the working man, common man, the 90% of the population.

You don't favor that, the "dictatorship" of the working man. You want the dictatorship of the party leadership, it seems. It's common knowledge people were powerless in the USSR. Yet you want to force the Russians back to that age.

Don't you understand? The dictatorship of the proletariat is not a dictatorship in the traditional, mainstream sense. And it cannot be forced on the population. It has to be created by the people themselves.

And if the people are so stupid that they do not want the dictatorship of the proletariat, then so be it. Do you agree or disagree?


Multi-party democracy=Capitalism
Isn't Venezuela a multi-party democracy? Isn't Bolivia?

Authentic leftist leaders got elected in both countries.
Could you please tell us why multiparty democracy equals capitalism?

Are you afraid that the people have the opportunity to choose capitalism instead of socialism?


THE RULE OF THE WEALTHY AND THE SMALLEST MINORITY THAT HAS THE POWER.

Isn't that exactly what you want? You said you supported the USSR.

In the USSR, the regime had lovely food served on expensive china. Who had the best apartments? The most power? Who ruled? If anyone was a ruling class in the USSR, it had to be the regime, no?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

You are one of those, of course. What are you? Stalinist? Maoist?


Ubiquitous patriotism and nationalism are to be
demonstrated through everyday signs and symbols: the flying of flags,
the wearing and carrying of national symbols, the adoption of gestures,
catch-phrases and slogans, and regular mass demonstrations of
solidarity. Education and re-education programmes develop and
reinforce the citizens' subordination to state power.


What is our dear leader talking about? Life in China under our chairman?

[norwegian commie]

If the people continue to elect socialist/communist leaders, why not? Are you afraid that the people might not elect socialist/communist leaders, that they will change their mind in a few years?

Mabye. Mabye someone spread lies throug the media abot how fantastic the other system is and the old one gets tossed away. when it is away it cant get back because the capitalists makes it impossible. Or the people escape to capitalist countries and when they realise it is no better they do everything to get back (like we have seen from Cuba) Cubans hijacking planes to get back to their socialist country.

By the way, communism is not like Capitalism. Communism is a prosess. It is not complete untill the worldwide revolution, then the real changes shall occur.


Capitalism exists even under (bourgeois) democracy. Who is to say socialism cannot be created in a multiparty democracy, if capitalism can? It's up to the people. We have seen that in for example Bolivia.

reddiculus. Capitalism is as i said not like Communism. It is a different process.
By the way, you seriusly saying Bolivia is communst? Evo Morales is in MAS a socialistic party but the country is far from communist. Venezuela is far moore progressive than Bolivia. MAS alsoe said after the victory that this was the last time the word socialism shuld come up.

You pulling Bolivia as an communistic western demcratic model is just stupid.


I don't know what you mean by saying they don't participate, that they can't vote in PP elections?

Everybody can vote, they cant be elected.


From what I've heard the people get to nominate representatives for PPs, but those people don't get to run in the elections unless they are approved by the Communist Party.

No, not true. They can only participate if they are approved by the people, nominated by the peple. You have got things mixed. To be a member of the communist party, you have to be approved by your fellow workers. That is atleast they way i have understood it.


Also though anyone can join the Communist Party in Cuba (if you agree with its platform and principles ofcourse), the people don't get to choose who will have the offices in the Communist Party, the party appoints people. And the PPs try to make appeals to the Communist Party-- who decide how far they'll take the peoples demands if at all. Much like in the west when you sign petitions and they go to congresses to vote on--they decide how far they are willing to take it if at all.

To be a member of the communist party, you have to have gained the thrust of your fellow workers. The communist party does not function like an all controlling organ in Cuba, but they along with parlament handle political and trading affairs. You could say that the party mostly function as a Ideological organ in Cuba.


Again Cuba has the same standards the "free" west on democracy just different mechanistics.

Cuban democracy is far from perfect, but it is atleast better than the hipocritic "democracy" in the west.


On another note inorder to have proletarian democracy there musn't be a party at all who approves members to run in elections, or has final says in everything.

They do not have a final say in everything and does not approve the elected of the commune/provins (whatever) and they as i said independently have control over: , daycare, helthcare, streets, traffic, culture, sports, and public affares.

I agree that it is no proletarian democracy. But by your standards, it actually is.


And if the people are so stupid that they do not want the dictatorship of the proletariat, then so be it. Do you agree or disagree?

In an borgueise society where the workers has been exploited dictatorship of the proletariate is a nessesary stage to end the bourgeise influence on society and to make them adapt to the new society.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Mabye. Mabye someone spread lies throug the media abot how fantastic the other system is and the old one gets tossed away.

Yes, so?



when it is away it cant get back because the capitalists makes it impossible.

And you base the claim that "it can't get back", on? The CP of Moldova was voted in.



By the way, you seriusly saying Bolivia is communst?

I mentioned the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism, not communism in my previous post, I believe.

The people have elected leaders in Bolivia and Venezuela which will carry both nations toward socialism.



Or the people escape to capitalist countries and when they realise it is no better they do everything to get back (like we have seen from Cuba) Cubans hijacking planes to get back to their socialist country.

Do you have a link on this?



By the way, communism is not like Capitalism. Communism is a prosess.

Hmm.. I don't think I ever mentioned communism in my previous post.


It is not complete untill the worldwide revolution, then the real changes shall occur.

Sounds like a pretty weak theory.

The reactionaries could just hold off the Vatican and Monaco forever and you will never have "real change".



You pulling Bolivia as an communistic western demcratic model is just stupid.

Did I mention Bolivia as "communistic"...?




Cuban democracy is far from perfect, but it is atleast better than the hipocritic "democracy" in the west.



In that "hipocritic" democracy" socialists/communists can actually get elected.

The opposition would never be allowed to be elected in Cuba, even if the people wanted it.



In an borgueise society where the workers has been exploited dictatorship of the proletariate is a nessesary stage to end the bourgeise influence on society and to make them adapt to the new society.

You have to make them, the proletariat, adapt?
Is that what you are saying? I am a bit confused of what you are saying.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 05:11 PM
You don't favor that, the "dictatorship" of the working man. You want the dictatorship of the party leadership, it seems. It's common knowledge people were powerless in the USSR. Yet you want to force the Russians back to that age.


Multi-party democracy=Capitalism
Isn't Venezuela a multi-party democracy? Isn't Bolivia?

Authentic leftist leaders got elected in both countries.
Could you please tell us why multiparty democracy equals capitalism?

Are you afraid that the people have the opportunity to choose capitalism instead of socialism?


THE RULE OF THE WEALTHY AND THE SMALLEST MINORITY THAT HAS THE POWER.

Isn't that exactly what you want? You said you supported the USSR.


I never had any statements of that sort, I don&#39;t wish to force Russians into anything, their "version" of Communism was one of the worst attempts of bringing the people to power, though their development conditions were also the hardest. They did lots of great big things for their country and for the world(more than they knew at the time). Because of their financial, tehnical and military support communism grew big time in the places where it would have never laid roots without the soviet aid of any sort. Though, their "support" had also catastrophic effect on European Communism and gave it the biggest per cent of the bad name it has today(East Germany, Chech-Slovakia(don&#39;t know how to write <_< ) and Yugoslavia). So don&#39;t take me for some "soviet-fan", I simply think that the Russians where better off back then.

[QUOTE]And if the people are so stupid that they do not want the dictatorship of the proletariat, then so be it. Do you agree or disagree?[QUOTE]

I don&#39;t agree. Knowing that there practicaly is no such place(state) in the world that has that perfect living conditions(besides few of them in Europe) that the people would not want to take their future in their hands I can say that the idea of Communism, of people owning their employment conditions is and will be an ever-present nesecity of every single "common" man. They are simply just blinded by the numerous walls bulit by the capitalist propaganda around their minds. The idea of what communism truly is just can&#39;t get trough. It was a fierce opponent Communist parties had to face hundred years ago and that same opponent, now made even more dangerous by growing capitalist propaganda is what they(communist parties) have to face today.

[QUOTE]Are you afraid that the people have the opportunity to choose capitalism instead of socialism?[QUOTE]

I think we should all be aware of that threat and this forum should help those that search for a way to do something against that "opportunity" to find the answer.


And about Venezuela; It&#39;s a country well on her way to "total" socialism so that muliti-party part is a necessity that will soon become unimportant and unecesary.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I don&#39;t agree.

That is not possible, I am afraid.

You say you don&#39;t agree on the notion that if the people want to dissolve the dictatorship of the proletariat, then so be it.

So you are going to force them to have a dictatorship of the proletariat. But that doesn&#39;t work. Because you cannot force the proletariat to take or keep power. What you will do then is to oppress the people and go against the wish of the people.

So basically you just want dictatorship. If the people want dictatorship of the proletariat then "good for them", if they don&#39;t want dictatorship of the proletariat, well "too bad, we are going to have it anyways".
You know what that is?

Dictatorship over the proletariat in the name of the proletariat

[norwegian commie]

QUOTE
Mabye. Mabye someone spread lies throug the media abot how fantastic the other system is and the old one gets tossed away.


Yes, so?

so? are you kidding? then the revoluton are lost, then the ultimate sosiaty we were on our way to is lost. We cant have exploitation of workers anymore, we cant have state terrorism anymore, we just cant have the things the borgeise has done and are doing to the world. To avoid this, we cant risk this.
Your social-democratic ideeas are not worth much.




when it is away it cant get back because the capitalists makes it impossible.


And you base the claim that "it can&#39;t get back", on? The CP of Moldova was voted in.

Observe history.
Look at what happened to nicaragua. The marxist-leninists improved the country, evened out the diffeenses between poor-rich, buildt up velfare, healthcare, schooling. Because of propaganda the communists were not elected. Capitalists then used their position to spread moor lies and detroy the country and the communists progress. <propaganda made it so that only capitalists reached the ear of the people, then victory of communists were impossible.

Western democracy is not the best democracy.


I mentioned the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism, not communism in my previous post, I believe.



Multi-party democracy=Capitalism


Isn&#39;t Venezuela a multi-party democracy? Isn&#39;t Bolivia?

Sounded like you were refering to communism.



The people have elected leaders in Bolivia and Venezuela which will carry both nations toward socialism.
he people elected Fidel too.
Venezuela is not marxistic. MAS claimed after its victory that they never were going to mention socialism again.



Do you have a link on this?

well, ok. d (interviev with castro)



Hmm.. I don&#39;t think I ever mentioned communism in my previous post.

I thougt our diskussion was about communism working in western democracy. This alsoe incudes socialism.



is not complete untill the worldwide revolution, then the real changes shall occur.
this sounds like a weak theory


You a marxist? You a communist? if so you shuld know that a classless, moneyless, stateless society can not be completd with opposing capitaist superpowers. The only way to prevent this would be to not have capitalist powers, if you want that world revolution is neccecary.
NO, the teory is not weak. Unless you consider marxist theory weak.


In that "hipocritic" democracy" socialists/communists can actually get elected.

The opposition would never be allowed to be elected in Cuba, even if the people wanted it.

Well that is the case in western democracy too.
Communists elected usually are inflicted with boikott and military coups. Even the palestinian goverment wich was democraticly elected are not accsepted and are now faced with a boikott.


You have to make them, the proletariat, adapt?
Is that what you are saying? I am a bit confused of what you are saying.

No we must make the proletarians develop marxistic thougts, radicalise it and then it shall seize power and turn the tables on the capitalists.

Unless you start ansvering my questions and stop arguing like a child i shall abandon this discussion that seems to go nowere.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

so? are you kidding? then the revoluton are lost, then the ultimate sosiaty we were on our way to is lost.

Well, apparently, unlike you, I do not think that just because the press says something positive about capitalism, must mean that the workers will want capitalism. That has been the problem with so-called "socialist societies" before. The regime think the people are stupid, and want to shield them away from anything that could make them challenge the status quo.

Like a protective parent.

No wonder the Russians still say "Papa Stalin".


Your social-democratic ideeas are not worth much.

Social democratic ideas?

What are some of my social democratic ideas?



Western democracy is not the best democracy.

Of course not.



MAS claimed after its victory that they never were going to mention socialism again.


Although perhaps slightly dubious, "socialism" is just a word. What matters is what really happens.


well, ok. d (interviev with castro)


Okay, not that I would consider interview with Castro the most objective source.

Is that considered some sort of joke? That URL.


No we must make the proletarians develop marxistic thougts,

You are talking about "we must make the proletarians". Are you not a proletarian yourself?




Unless you start ansvering my questions

What questions?

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:01 PM


So basically you just want dictatorship. If the people want dictatorship of the proletariat then "good for them", if they don&#39;t want dictatorship of the proletariat, well "too bad, we are going to have it anyways".
You know what that is?


That&#39;s not what I said. I said that there can not be a situation in which the people(meaning 90% of them) would not want to have communism. It&#39;s like a sick dying man doesn&#39;t wan&#39;t the cure to save his life. Besides coutries like Switzerland and the baltic countries that situation is not possible.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

That&#39;s not what I said. I said that there can not be a situation in which the people(meaning 90% of them) would not want to have communism.

If the dictatorship of the proletariat is inheretly (sic?) good, why not?

Do you think there must be a majority of workers who favor the dictatorship of the proletariat, in order to set up such a dictatorship?
Say 20 percent of the population wants the dictatorship of the proletariat, do you think that is enough?

Where does the limit go?

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 11:24 AM


Do you think there must be a majority of workers who favor the dictatorship of the proletariat, in order to set up such a dictatorship?
Say 20 percent of the population wants the dictatorship of the proletariat, do you think that is enough?

Where does the limit go?
You see, that&#39;s just your problem; you seem to not understand the difference between capitalism and communism, between one party system and multi-party system that you so eagerly represent.
Ofcourse that that 20 per cent can not rule and present the dictatorship of the proletariat. It&#39;s only possible in multi-party system and that&#39;s just what it&#39;s about: the rule of JUST ONE segment of society, mostly it&#39;s the country&#39;s profit making owners though in those "better" and more succesfull neo-liberal democracy&#39;s the power&#39;s in the hands of the retirement&#39;s party, eco-party, this party, that party... the point is that all those little parties represent just one class, one part of the society. And the thing that makes it all worse is that that "one of the many" party that wins the elections has achived that trough having more campaign money. At least it&#39;s how it works in east Europe&#39;s new "democracies".

And the limit you mentioned goes to whatever the number of those who aren&#39;t aware of their slave-like position in their everlasting task to make more money for someone who pays them equaly regardless the profit he makes.
And that number, in capitalism is always around 90%.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Gojo, I am a bit confused.

Do you support democracy?

If so, what kind of democratic measures do you think should exist?

What kind of checks and balances would there be in society if you had your will?

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 06:48 PM
Gojo, I am a bit confused.

Do you support democracy?

If so, what kind of democratic measures do you think should exist?

What kind of checks and balances would there be in society if you had your will?
Do I support democracy? Democracy is communsim and communsim is democracy. The fact that centuries of capitalist using of democracy as cover for their personal aims changes nothing. They ingrained the word democracy as a sinonim for capitalism and vice versa. They have the power to do that because of the false democracy in capitalism which is called multi-party system trough which they keep the appearence of democracy in the most cruel of feudalist systems - capitalism.

It&#39;s the thing Fidel always pointlessly tries to explain to the journalists that keep asking him "where is the democracy you promised?" They can&#39;t understand that what he achived really is democracy at it&#39;s best in the current world situation. They can not understand that because of all the blatant lies the capitalist propaganda machine has given to them.

Checks, balances? The only balance needed is that people decide their own lives and work.

[Delta]

Direct democracy is a very important component of socialism, but I can understand that practically speaking, Fidel would be risking all of the economic gains that he has won if he were to give people enhanced political freedom. Can you imagine all of the private media sympathetic to pro-capitalist interests the U.S. would sponsor if greater freedom of speech were allowed, and if elections were to proceed more fairly, how outrageously funded the capitalist candidates would be? You would quickly lose all economic gains, and with them, you would also lose the political gains you had set out for. It would be like we have in the U.S. Formally we have a lot of political freedom, but because of huge economic injustice, our political freedom doesn&#39;t mean too much.

[norwegian commie]

Well, apparently, unlike you, I do not think that just because the press says something positive about capitalism, must mean that the workers will want capitalism. That has been the problem with so-called "socialist societies" before. The regime think the people are stupid, and want to shield them away from anything that could make them challenge the status quo.

The anti sovjet propaganda and anti communist propaganda hollywood Has been spreading since 1947 seems to be working quite nicely. Few know the consept of communism exept stealing peoples money and killing millions of people.

That i want to shield the people from, dont you? If that is what it takes to gain a society based on the values that communists througout hidtory has promoted then so be it.


Of course not.

well, the thing you have been promoting here is caled western democracy. Thinking communism shuld be "inflicted" on a country throug elections in the form we have now is rather foolish. I belive on a armed revolution.



Okay, not that I would consider interview with Castro the most objective source.

Is that considered some sort of joke? That URL.

I was in a rush and wont bother finding 1000 links for you. In the intervju he mentions episodes, that shuld be enough. Have you not heard about it? it is not a secret. It was even parodied in an seinfeldt episode once.




Although perhaps slightly dubious, "socialism" is just a word. What matters is what really happens.

Is there socialism in bolivia? Has there been a revolution?
Thge country is progressive, and i appreciate left leaning laticountries. In fact i leave loads of my thrust with the latino-proletariate... They are the most progressive red force today.

But bolivia is not socialist.



You are talking about "we must make the proletarians". Are you not a proletarian yourself?

No, i do not consider my selvf to be that. I am a student in Norway, the best country in the world to live in. I come from a lower middle class family.
Didnt know you had to be poor to be red?
Norway doesnt have many prols... They have got a large middle class and a few prols. But not much.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by Matthijs+Jun 25 2006, 01:38 PM--> (Matthijs @ Jun 25 2006, 01:38 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 02:36 PM
You know we can ask Cubans what they think, if they believe they have democracy, people&#39;s rule. I think we all know what most people will answer...

I asked a cuban friend of mine what he thought. He said it looks pretty good, officially, but in reality, it&#39;s not as free as it looks on paper and ink.
And CdL of the FPM posted an exchange between Revleft members and a Cuban friend of his months ago, and many of the facts that that person mentioned were in direct contradiction to some of those coming from yourself or Smokingman. It would be inappropriate to accuse anybody of lying, as nothing&#39;s certain on the internet, but I do not see how your "sources" should be claimed as absolute truth. [/b]
Why don&#39;t you just go to Cuba during the elections and see for yourself then, asswipe?

[norwegian commie]

Why don&#39;t you just go to Cuba during the elections and see for yourself then, asswipe?

On my way

[Karl Marx's Camel]

(narsjonalforsamlingenon norwegian, dont know its name on english)

National Assembly.