Question About Communist Or Anarchist Society

[Fawkes]

You guys talk about how in a communist or anarchist society, people will work to better the community and help each other. But, what about things like medical research or scientific studies, you need money for that, so how would these things be done in a communist/anarchist society?

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 20 2006, 10:08 PM
But, what about things like medical research or scientific studies, you need money for that, so how would these things be done in a communist/anarchist society?
Why would you need money for it?

[Herman]

You guys talk about how in a communist or anarchist society, people will work to better the community and help each other. But, what about things like medical research or scientific studies, you need money for that, so how would these things be done in a communist/anarchist society?

In a communist society, money will not exist.

[elmo sez]

I think what he means is where would you get the resources for that ?

Id like to add another question, how is health care education etc funded ,through a type of tax?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Money would not be a barrier. Everything done would be done for the good of the community. However things like brain surgery take many years of studying and if a street sweeper makes as much as a brain surgeon, why put in the time? I'm sure not everyone is so narrow minded however a great many are so I think there would need to be a system of Labor Time Vouchers which would be used for non-necessities like electronics and furniture. Harder jobs and more effort and product produced would earn you more LTVs.

That's about the closest thing to money there'd be but it's really completely different since all it is is a measurement of work done. It creates no inequality and poverty as everyone already has everything they 'need' these would just be for the 'finer things in life'.

[Cult of Reason]

Money is not needed, but resources are. Communism distributes according to need, so therefore if certain research requires certain materials then those materials are provided if possible: it is a technical problem at most.

[GraylySquirrel]

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 20 2006, 09:08 PM
You guys talk about how in a communist or anarchist society, people will work to better the community and help each other. But, what about things like medical research or scientific studies, you need money for that, so how would these things be done in a communist/anarchist society?
Others better versed in the finer points of communism could do a better job at explainning this than I can, but I'll try.

As other have already pointed out, you wouldn't need money for reasearch. People would work for the benifit of the whole. Those who were reasearchers would research because of a genuine desire to help people, not to make money. While reasearchers did their work to help the community as a whole, others in the community would work to help the researchers ability to reasearch. A complete prefect circle would be created, in which everyone helps someone else. Everyone gets what they need at no cost.

[nickdlc]

However things like brain surgery take many years of studying and if a street sweeper makes as much as a brain surgeon, why put in the time? Because while the soon to be brain sergeon has taken years off to put into study, society has given him/her free schooling,medical care, dorm and more!. The brain surgeon is pleased that she/he lives in a society that provides her the material to learn and do anything she/he finds interesting. Once in the medical field the brain surgeon decides how her hospital is going to be run along with her other comrades, she/he and her medical comrades actively make suggestions to the communist engineers on new medical equipmen that would make her job easier and improve the lives of others. The sense of community she/he enjoys is much bigger incentive than more ltv's per hour than the sweeper. Plus why in hell would there be sweepers in socialist society they are most likely being phased out by technology.


Id like to add another question, how is health care education etc funded ,through a type of tax? It is funded through a sort of tax but this is only for used up MoP i.e. the raw materials and machines that are constantly used up and need to be replaced during the production process. The labour that the doctors and nurses put in is also taxed because they need health care also.

[bayano]

i think the response to the "streetsweeper and doctor make the same salary" argument is twofold- firstly, the thread topic is about the future communist or anarchist society, where neither will make a salary, and perhaps even some degree of careerism and specialization will be reduced. but the better response is an example- cuban doctors sometimes make less than people in the tourism industry, yet cuba has long had more students trying to study medicine than it needs, so it has increased the qualifications required to some degree.

[apathy maybe]

Personally I do not think that a society even needs brain surgeons. But we definitely need street sweepers. So sweepers and cleaners should be given greater rewards then some lazy doctor who sits around most of the day reading medical journals.

How would you like the road outside your house to be messy with rubbish and sewage? How often have you needed brain surgery? Obviously cleaners are more important.

(Tongue only partly in cheek.)

And as others have pointed out resources would probably be allocated to where they are needed (or taken when needed more likely, we won't have bureaucrats allocating stuff).

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Because while the soon to be brain sergeon has taken years off to put into study, society has given him/her free schooling,medical care, dorm and more!. The brain surgeon is pleased that she/he lives in a society that provides her the material to learn and do anything she/he finds interesting. Once in the medical field the brain surgeon decides how her hospital is going to be run along with her other comrades, she/he and her medical comrades actively make suggestions to the communist engineers on new medical equipmen that would make her job easier and improve the lives of others. The sense of community she/he enjoys is much bigger incentive than more ltv's per hour than the sweeper. Plus why in hell would there be sweepers in socialist society they are most likely being phased out by technology.


So? If he's a streetsweeper or dog walker, he'd get free, schooling, medical care, and housing as well and doesn't have to learn all the ultra technical aspects of brain surgery. I'm sure their other fields she/he's interested in which are fullilling, yet not as tough.

The sense of community is always good but I think people need a individualistic incentive to work which makes him/her stand out from everyone else and rewards him/her for working extra hard to provide for the community.

BTW streetsweeper is just an example.

[elmo sez]

Everyone keeps talking about how people just take thinks for their use when their needed , but from were would this resource centre not have to be centralised ?

Has anyone got a link to Marxist economics ? Because id like to do more study on this, its just one concept that i find hard to get my head around. javascript:emoticon(':blush:')
smilie

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 20 2006, 10:08 PM
you need money for that, so how would these things be done in a communist/anarchist society?
You don't need money, you just need people/communities to dedicate their time to providing society with those resources.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 11:26 AM
Everyone keeps talking about how people just take thinks for their use when their needed , but from were would this resource centre not have to be centralised ?
Distribution would be decided through agricultural and industrial federations who would meet periodically to organise how it would work. Each collective would then take away instruction decide at such a plenum and then do it.

We could even create a high-tech computer system which these Federations can use to control their systems of distribution and then, when necessary, these federations would meet again to discuss further.

[Jesus Christ!]

The whole LTV thing is stil confusing to me. If the point is to abolish money why create a different system of money? COuldn't people steal ltv's? who would be put in charge of handing out the LTV's? a state seems to be neccesary.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ!@Jun 21 2006, 02:39 PM
The whole LTV thing is stil confusing to me. If the point is to abolish money why create a different system of money? COuldn't people steal ltv's? who would be put in charge of handing out the LTV's? a state seems to be neccesary.

The whole LTV thing is stil confusing to me. If the point is to abolish money why create a different system of money? COuldn't people steal ltv's? who would be put in charge of handing out the LTV's? a state seems to be neccesary.

It's completly different than money because LTVs work like this. When a worker shows up to work to complete his goals, he'll log onto a computer or be logged onto it by someone else. Based on the amount o product he produced, effort put into his job, and the difficulty in his task, he'll get more LTVs. Than he'll take it to the 'store' and 'buy' whatever his non-necessity of choice. His LTVs will be shredded once he spends them and don't cycle like money.As for the way it is handed out, I think that there'll be a job which is collectivly distributed which is called 'monitor'. He'll evaluate how many goals you accomplished and in how much time and give you LTVs on a ratio of 5 per goal, 10 per accomplishing more than needed on a particular goal.

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 06:53 AM
It's completly different than money because LTVs work like this. When a worker shows up to work to complete his goals, he'll log onto a computer or be logged onto it by someone else. Based on the amount o product he produced, effort put into his job, and the difficulty in his task, he'll get more LTVs. Than he'll take it to the 'store' and 'buy' whatever his non-necessity of choice. His LTVs will be shredded once he spends them and don't cycle like money.As for the way it is handed out, I think that there'll be a job which is collectivly distributed which is called 'monitor'. He'll evaluate how many goals you accomplished and in how much time and give you LTVs on a ratio of 5 per goal, 10 per accomplishing more than needed on a particular goal.
So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 06:53 AM
It's completly different than money because LTVs work like this. When a worker shows up to work to complete his goals, he'll log onto a computer or be logged onto it by someone else. Based on the amount o product he produced, effort put into his job, and the difficulty in his task, he'll get more LTVs. Than he'll take it to the 'store' and 'buy' whatever his non-necessity of choice. His LTVs will be shredded once he spends them and don't cycle like money.As for the way it is handed out, I think that there'll be a job which is collectivly distributed which is called 'monitor'. He'll evaluate how many goals you accomplished and in how much time and give you LTVs on a ratio of 5 per goal, 10 per accomplishing more than needed on a particular goal.
So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 06:53 AM
It's completly different than money because LTVs work like this. When a worker shows up to work to complete his goals, he'll log onto a computer or be logged onto it by someone else. Based on the amount o product he produced, effort put into his job, and the difficulty in his task, he'll get more LTVs. Than he'll take it to the 'store' and 'buy' whatever his non-necessity of choice. His LTVs will be shredded once he spends them and don't cycle like money.As for the way it is handed out, I think that there'll be a job which is collectivly distributed which is called 'monitor'. He'll evaluate how many goals you accomplished and in how much time and give you LTVs on a ratio of 5 per goal, 10 per accomplishing more than needed on a particular goal.
So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?

[Janus]

The whole LTV thing is stil confusing to me. If the point is to abolish money why create a different system of money? COuldn't people steal ltv's?
LTV's are more or less meant for a transitional period in which some form of distribution system based on work is still needed. It's not really meant for an actual communist society.

[Janus]

The whole LTV thing is stil confusing to me. If the point is to abolish money why create a different system of money? COuldn't people steal ltv's?
LTV's are more or less meant for a transitional period in which some form of distribution system based on work is still needed. It's not really meant for an actual communist society.

[Janus]

The whole LTV thing is stil confusing to me. If the point is to abolish money why create a different system of money? COuldn't people steal ltv's?
LTV's are more or less meant for a transitional period in which some form of distribution system based on work is still needed. It's not really meant for an actual communist society.

[KC]

So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?


How? People are paid in the amount of labour time they contribute to society. Yes, this takes into account different amounts of labour, as hard work is just compiled as more labour time than easy work.

[KC]

So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?


How? People are paid in the amount of labour time they contribute to society. Yes, this takes into account different amounts of labour, as hard work is just compiled as more labour time than easy work.

[KC]

So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?


How? People are paid in the amount of labour time they contribute to society. Yes, this takes into account different amounts of labour, as hard work is just compiled as more labour time than easy work.

[anomaly]

TLVs would certainly not exist in communist society. Any such currency would by that time be obsolete.

Now, for an economic transition between capitalism and communism, yes, TLVs are one possibility.

However, I don't see how TLVs are 'unfair' in any way. They are awarded based on one's ratio of labor time to output. It's all rather precise. The only obstacle, of course, is deciding units of output for jobs like teaching. I think it will become apparent very quickly whether or not this is possible. In any case, TLVs are definitely an option. We'll just have to see.

[anomaly]

TLVs would certainly not exist in communist society. Any such currency would by that time be obsolete.

Now, for an economic transition between capitalism and communism, yes, TLVs are one possibility.

However, I don't see how TLVs are 'unfair' in any way. They are awarded based on one's ratio of labor time to output. It's all rather precise. The only obstacle, of course, is deciding units of output for jobs like teaching. I think it will become apparent very quickly whether or not this is possible. In any case, TLVs are definitely an option. We'll just have to see.

[anomaly]

TLVs would certainly not exist in communist society. Any such currency would by that time be obsolete.

Now, for an economic transition between capitalism and communism, yes, TLVs are one possibility.

However, I don't see how TLVs are 'unfair' in any way. They are awarded based on one's ratio of labor time to output. It's all rather precise. The only obstacle, of course, is deciding units of output for jobs like teaching. I think it will become apparent very quickly whether or not this is possible. In any case, TLVs are definitely an option. We'll just have to see.

[nickdlc]

As time goes on and more industries become fully public establishments LTV's become more and more just a method of account i.e. not being used to buy things. We will still have to distribute use values in full fledged communism and this requires information which is why they will still be needed.


They are awarded based on one's ratio of labor time to output. You mean peice work?


So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system? Yes it's a sticky situation figuring out how much each person should get and keeping LTV's an objective mode of accounting.

I think the best way to decide how many labour voucher each person gets will be decided by people in that industry. For example say in a shoe factory people put in 10 000 hours of labour for a certain period. Labour vouchers issued will not be able to exceed these 10,000 hours because no more work was put in. That means if someone is getting paid more someone is getting paid less and workers would just say let's just equalize it so we each get the amount we put in.

[nickdlc]

As time goes on and more industries become fully public establishments LTV's become more and more just a method of account i.e. not being used to buy things. We will still have to distribute use values in full fledged communism and this requires information which is why they will still be needed.


They are awarded based on one's ratio of labor time to output. You mean peice work?


So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system? Yes it's a sticky situation figuring out how much each person should get and keeping LTV's an objective mode of accounting.

I think the best way to decide how many labour voucher each person gets will be decided by people in that industry. For example say in a shoe factory people put in 10 000 hours of labour for a certain period. Labour vouchers issued will not be able to exceed these 10,000 hours because no more work was put in. That means if someone is getting paid more someone is getting paid less and workers would just say let's just equalize it so we each get the amount we put in.

[nickdlc]

As time goes on and more industries become fully public establishments LTV's become more and more just a method of account i.e. not being used to buy things. We will still have to distribute use values in full fledged communism and this requires information which is why they will still be needed.


They are awarded based on one's ratio of labor time to output. You mean peice work?


So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system? Yes it's a sticky situation figuring out how much each person should get and keeping LTV's an objective mode of accounting.

I think the best way to decide how many labour voucher each person gets will be decided by people in that industry. For example say in a shoe factory people put in 10 000 hours of labour for a certain period. Labour vouchers issued will not be able to exceed these 10,000 hours because no more work was put in. That means if someone is getting paid more someone is getting paid less and workers would just say let's just equalize it so we each get the amount we put in.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 21 2006, 08:35 PM


So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?


How? People are paid in the amount of labour time they contribute to society. Yes, this takes into account different amounts of labour, as hard work is just compiled as more labour time than easy work.
He's made it clear time and time again that a physician will make alot more TLV's than say, a mechanic.

We don't need TLV's.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 21 2006, 08:35 PM


So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?


How? People are paid in the amount of labour time they contribute to society. Yes, this takes into account different amounts of labour, as hard work is just compiled as more labour time than easy work.
He's made it clear time and time again that a physician will make alot more TLV's than say, a mechanic.

We don't need TLV's.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 21 2006, 08:35 PM


So you don't deny that there will be a material divide between different occupations in your system?


How? People are paid in the amount of labour time they contribute to society. Yes, this takes into account different amounts of labour, as hard work is just compiled as more labour time than easy work.
He's made it clear time and time again that a physician will make alot more TLV's than say, a mechanic.

We don't need TLV's.

[nickdlc]

We don't need TLV's. Are you opposed to issueing LTV's or Labour Time Accounting in gerneral? In communist society accounting of things is will be more essential than ever! It is up to the workers in a certain industry to decide if some will be issued more LTV's because their work is more valued but this will come at a cost because that will mean other workers will have to pay to cover this amount. It is more likely that workers will decide for the equalization of labour.

[nickdlc]

We don't need TLV's. Are you opposed to issueing LTV's or Labour Time Accounting in gerneral? In communist society accounting of things is will be more essential than ever! It is up to the workers in a certain industry to decide if some will be issued more LTV's because their work is more valued but this will come at a cost because that will mean other workers will have to pay to cover this amount. It is more likely that workers will decide for the equalization of labour.

[nickdlc]

We don't need TLV's. Are you opposed to issueing LTV's or Labour Time Accounting in gerneral? In communist society accounting of things is will be more essential than ever! It is up to the workers in a certain industry to decide if some will be issued more LTV's because their work is more valued but this will come at a cost because that will mean other workers will have to pay to cover this amount. It is more likely that workers will decide for the equalization of labour.

[KC]

He's made it clear time and time again that a physician will make alot more TLV's than say, a mechanic.


Then he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

[KC]

He's made it clear time and time again that a physician will make alot more TLV's than say, a mechanic.


Then he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

[KC]

He's made it clear time and time again that a physician will make alot more TLV's than say, a mechanic.


Then he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.