The reality of Cuba

[SmokingMan]

I'm a cuban man, and I live in Cuba (excuse my english)... I would like to share with you, the reality of Cuba... but not just about Cuba, about socialism at all...

Questions ....

How can we have democracy and freedom, in a dictatorship ??? Fidel think he is doing the best for all cubans ??? All the cubans must think like him ??? Can the cubans oppose to Castro's government ???

Please make your question... and your meditate about Cuba... better about Castro's government, and remember, Cuba isn't Fidel.

[Herman]

Please make your question... and your meditate about Cuba... better about Castro's government, and remember, Cuba isn't Fidel.

What you call, 'Dictatorship', is the dictatorship of the vanguard party, representing the working class.

There is actually democracy. Si no me crees, miralo en la propia pagina oficial de tu gobierno.

El partido comunista no quiere que todos sus ciudadanos piensen como Castro. Lo que si quieren, es que os veais como camaradas, hermanos y hermanas en una sociedad igualitaria, hasta que se alcanze la etapa del comunismo. Por cierto, Fidel Castro no manda a nadie. No tiene el poder para decidir que es lo mejor para el pueblo cubano. Es el congreso general el que se encarga de la politica interior, exterior, social, judicial, etc.

[SmokingMan]

I have a doubt, do you live in Cuba ??? Do you what really happen here ?? you know that constitution say al the cubans can go to anywhere in our country, and that is a lie... you know all cubans only can read (and see, and hear) what castro goverment want we read ?? have you thinked for a while ?? you know what is a dictatorship ?? how can you be free, if you cannot choose your political thought ??? exists an absolute power, no one can choose, you have to swallow, and keep going .... please think about it...

"Estar a mal con ese unico sistema, era perderlo todo..." El juego de Cuba

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:08 AM
I have a doubt, do you live in Cuba ??? Do you what really happen here ?? you know that constitution say al the cubans can go to anywhere in our country, and that is a lie... you know all cubans only can read (and see, and hear) what castro goverment want we read ?? have you thinked for a while ?? you know what is a dictatorship ?? how can you be free, if you cannot choose your political thought ??? exists an absolute power, no one can choose, you have to swallow, and keep going .... please think about it...

"Estar a mal con ese unico sistema, era perderlo todo..." El juego de Cuba
It's good to see that in that "dictatorship" you are on the Internet and criticizing Castro.

Either A) You're simply a joker trying to con us into thinking you're Cuban and that Castro is terrible
B) You're actually Cuban, but seem to be quite educated in English and politically aware, as well as able to voice your opinion over the Internet, casting a lot of doubts over how "dictatorial" Cuba's government is.

C) B is true, allow me to let you know that the United States is virtually no different from Cuba, in that only corporations can technically run media, and are heavily influenced and/or tied to the government, distracting masses of people. As well, our phone lines are tapped, our civil liberties curbed, our medical research restricted, and our country is rather close to totalitarian theocratic fascism thanks to the pervasive plague of Conservative Christianity.

For a Latin American nation, Cuba is far greater than many others, in terms of provisions. I implore you to see how the rest of the Third World lives before you complain about Cuba, a nation that, unlike the US, is at least trying to act on behalf of the greatest amount of people, on humanistic and socialistic ideals, instead of the US, which acts on behalf of corporations for jingoistic, profit, imperialistic, and religious fundamentalist ideals.


Capitalism, for billions, is nothing special. Resources ought to be shared EQUALLY.

[Herman]

I have a doubt, do you live in Cuba ??? Do you what really happen here ?? you know that constitution say al the cubans can go to anywhere in our country, and that is a lie... you know all cubans only can read (and see, and hear) what castro goverment want we read ?? have you thinked for a while ?? you know what is a dictatorship ?? how can you be free, if you cannot choose your political thought ??? exists an absolute power, no one can choose, you have to swallow, and keep going .... please think about it...

Podrias responderme en espanol? (Perdona por la ortografia. Estoy utilizando un teclado ingles y no puedo utilizar acentos ni nada).

Lo que dices, depende si de verdad quieres el socialismo. El partido Cubano Comunista esta intentando hacer todo lo posible para conseguir que la diferencia en clases deje de existir. De todas maneras, tienes suerte, puesto que no existe la burguesia en tu pais y aqui en Europa y en Estados unidos... existe, y explota al proletariado.
No es cierto que no puedas elegir. He estado en Cuba y me ha encantando. Siempre he podido decir que lo que he querido y nadie me ha hecho nada. De hecho, hable del Che malamente y a la gente no le importa. Ademas, Cuba tiene las mejoras universidades del mundo. Es en tu pais donde se consiguen los mejores doctores. Incluso las naciones unidas admiten que Cuba redistribuye bien su PNB entre la gente. Con decir que la pobreza en Cuba apenas existe ya lo dice todo.

(Sorry for replying in Spanish, but I'd like to determine if you really are Cuban)

[Vendetta]

I don't know much about Cuba, but I would like to know one thing. How accurate is the Cuba Truth Project (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/) in it's statistics/essays/etc?

[Herman]

All the sources they use are official sources from the UN, UNESCO, etc.

[Vendetta]

So it would be accurate, and not just propaganda of any sort?

[Herman]

Nope, no propaganda. All the sources come from international files and reports.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What you call, 'Dictatorship', is the dictatorship of the vanguard party, representing the working class.


Why so certain the Cuban state represents the cuban working class?

A lot of Cubans, even socialists, would be sceptical of such a statement.

When there is little to no room to criticize the leadership, when the elections are made to look more democratic than they really are... When the state is sending away doctors and equipment that Cubans really need... It certainly does not feel like the state is representing the proletariat.

We will see if SmokingMan replies. If he is not jammed by the govt already or something like that.


RedHerman, my spanish is not very good. But I believe you said that you have been in Cuba and have spoken freely?

If that is the case, it should be noted that tourists in Cuba can do a lot of things with greater ease than Cubans themselves.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:34 PM

What you call, 'Dictatorship', is the dictatorship of the vanguard party, representing the working class.


Why so certain the Cuban state represents the cuban working class?

A lot of Cubans, even socialists, would be sceptical of such a statement.

When there is little to no room to criticize the leadership, when the elections are made to look more democratic than they really are... When the state is sending away doctors and equipment that Cubans really need... It certainly does not feel like the state is representing the proletariat.

We will see if SmokingMan replies. If he is not jammed by the govt already or something like that.


Cuba has the highest ratio of Doctors to civilians, as well as hospital beds to the population.

Look it up. They can afford to send doctors abroad, and it is done for many reasons.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba has the highest ratio of Doctors to civilians,


That doesn't matter very much when half of them are sent overseas.

11,3 million people in Cuba. Cuba has 71,000 doctors. How many in Venezuela now? 30,000? How many in the rest of the world? 5,000? Then there will be left 36,000 doctors to Cubans.

I looked up the doctors to civilian ratio. Norway is supposed to have 20,000 doctors. 4,5 million people in Norway.

That means Norway has a much higher ratio of doctors to civilians. And I would say, as a Norwegian, that Norway does have a lack of doctors.

My conversations with Cubans also confirm that there is an almost lack of doctors in Cuba.


It is common practice to "bribe" doctors in order to receive treatment in time. So they bribe doctors to get it done sooner. Usually it amounts to 5-10 dollars. But that is a lot for the common man (or woman) in Cuba. Some can't afford to bribe the doctors, and that makes the situation bad for a lot of people.


as well as hospital beds to the population.

I assume that claim is true.

However, there is a lot more than hospital beds that are lacking: For example, medicine.


They can afford to send doctors abroad

Quite a lot of Cubans would disagree, at least when it comes to the extent of it today.

[Herman]

Why so certain the Cuban state represents the cuban working class?

A lot of Cubans, even socialists, would be sceptical of such a statement.

The party itself claims so and I believe it.


When there is little to no room to criticize the leadership, when the elections are made to look more democratic than they really are... When the state is sending away doctors and equipment that Cubans really need... It certainly does not feel like the state is representing the proletariat.

There is much room to criticize the leadership. In fact, the government encourages that people learn self-criticism and to criticize things they don't feel is good them.


We will see if SmokingMan replies. If he is not jammed by the govt already or something like that.

Probably not.


RedHerman, my spanish is not very good. But I believe you said that you have been in Cuba and have spoken freely?

If that is the case, it should be noted that tourists in Cuba can do a lot of things with greater ease than Cubans themselves.

So? It doesn't matter. You have to follow the rules of the country you are in. If the law stated that no one can criticize Fidel Castro, then I wouldn't be able to.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The party itself claims so and I believe it.


Hold your horses...

So because the party claim they represent the proletariat, you believe it?


There is much room to criticize the leadership.
And you base this on?

Certainly the Cubans I know disagree with you.

They say complaining about economic problems is not a problem. But criticizing the state, and especially Fidel, is not something that is tolerated.


In fact, the government encourages that people learn self-criticism and to criticize things they don't feel is good them.
And you base this claim on?



Probably not.

Probably not, what?

Not jammed or not going to reply?

Both?



So? It doesn't matter.

What doesn't matter?


That tourists in Cuba can do a lot of things with greater ease than Cubans themselves, "doesn't matter"?



You have to follow the rules of the country you are in.
"Rules" in Cuba varies almost from neighbourhood to neighbourhood.

Some things, Cubans can do, things you can't.

But for the most part, you can, as a tourists, do things the Cubans cant.
Like in certain internet cafe's, Cubans are banned from entering.


That doesn't mean everyone is banned. Just Cubans. Not tourists.

[Herman]

So because the party claim they represent the proletariat, you believe it?

If it's a Socialist party which I see is doing things right, yes.


And you base this on?

I base it on the following article of their constitution:

Article 63: Every citizen has the right to file complaints with and send petitions to the authorities and to be given the pertinent response or attention within a reasonable length of time, in keeping with the law.


And you base this claim on?

Read the statement above.


Probably not, what?

Not jammed or not going to reply?

Both?

Both.


It may not matter to you, but it does matter to Cubans, who find this unfair.

I remember reading that in Indonesia, masturbation is punished by decapitation.
Is that also a "So? It doesn't matter. You have to follow the rules of the country you are in."?


That sounds awfully alike to the pro status quo people in the capitalist world

"Oh, that's just the way it is. Stop whining and just accept it."

Unfair that they cannot return to a bourgeoisie government? Unfair that they have equal rights, healthcare, pensions, free education, the right for demonstrations, 8 working hours a day, the vote and countless more things that the very constitution guarantees?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I base it on the following article of their constitution:

Article 63: Every citizen has the right to file complaints with and send petitions to the authorities and to be given the pertinent response or attention within a reasonable length of time, in keeping with the law.


First off, a lot of countries break their constitution.

Second, I really do not see how Article 63 is important/significant.


Unfair that they cannot return to a bourgeoisie government?

Uh no. Unfair that tourists can do things Cubans can't, or have difficulty doing.



8 working hours a day

A lot of Cubans have two jobs in order to get by.


Unfair that they have equal rights

Equal rights?

A low-key Cuban administrator have much more power than a common Cuban. And a lot of these use this power to grab money out of common Cubans.

I do not know if that breaks "equal rights", but it sure does not make Cubans "equal".


Unfair that they have equal rights, healthcare, pensions,


I do not know if you are here saying "equal healthcare". Do you..?

[Rawthentic]

Comrades, please, are you all becoming so altruistic when it comes to Cuba? WE all understand that Cuba has great medical care, doctors all over the world on internationalist missions, but come on, its an authoritarian dictatorship, is this the kind of society we envision as communists? I know that its important to protect Cuba from imperialism, but, as Marxists, is necessary to criticize it. Cuba will not move on to communism, it is one party state, and dictatorship and over the proletariat, the product of Leninism and, as history has shown us, Leninism becomes state-capitalism. There is no freedom of speech, freedom of press, not even the freedom to leave there country. Im not saying that this is available in capitalism, but Cuba is not a model society, and we really need to let go. I was very idealistic when I learned of Che and Cuba, I wanted to become a guerillero, and fight like the Cubans did. But, while I still love Cuba because of its people and their solidarity attitudes, I let go and saw that Cuba is not the kind of society that I would like to see. Its not socialist, as much as Castro would like to say it is, it as a welfare state, and authoritarian dictatorship.

[Solitary Mind]

Actually, im a Cuban, well born within the united states, but my parents are from Cuba. I have visited Cuba and have had conversations with people from cuba. And the conditions are exaggerated. I would love to live there as opposed to the United States. In cuba theres actually a sense of community. Virtually no crime or drugs. and alot of NWOG' statements are false. most cubans do not work two jobs just to get by. Actually you get a supply of rice and steak, anything else you want you buy. and as for the tourist comment, if you go anywhere on vacation you'll be living better than the locals, remember that....thats all i have for now i gues..1 love

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Welcome, Solitary Mind.


and alot of NWOG' statements are false. most cubans do not work two jobs just to get by.

Please read again:


A lot of Cubans have two jobs in order to get by.


Never said "most".

[Solitary Mind]

actually...not even most

[Herman]

the product of Leninism and, as history has shown us, Leninism becomes state-capitalism.

History hasn't 'Shown' us anything of the like. On the contrary, Leninist parties have been the most succesful in bringing about class conciousness, revolution and in giving us an idea of how a Socialist republic should work.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 PM

Cuba has the highest ratio of Doctors to civilians,


That doesn't matter very much when half of them are sent overseas.

11,3 million people in Cuba. Cuba has 71,000 doctors. How many in Venezuela now? 30,000? How many in the rest of the world? 5,000? Then there will be left 36,000 doctors to Cubans.

I looked up the doctors to civilian ratio. Norway is supposed to have 20,000 doctors. 4,5 million people in Norway.

That means Norway has a much higher ratio of doctors to civilians. And I would say, as a Norwegian, that Norway does have a lack of doctors.

My conversations with Cubans also confirm that there is an almost lack of doctors in Cuba.


It is common practice to "bribe" doctors in order to receive treatment in time. So they bribe doctors to get it done sooner. Usually it amounts to 5-10 dollars. But that is a lot for the common man (or woman) in Cuba. Some can't afford to bribe the doctors, and that makes the situation bad for a lot of people.


as well as hospital beds to the population.

I assume that claim is true.

However, there is a lot more than hospital beds that are lacking: For example, medicine.


They can afford to send doctors abroad

Quite a lot of Cubans would disagree, at least when it comes to the extent of it today.
How do you know it's not 71,000 doctors in Cuba ALONE?

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Solitary [email protected] 19 2006, 08:21 PM
Actually, im a Cuban, well born within the united states, but my parents are from Cuba. I have visited Cuba and have had conversations with people from cuba. And the conditions are exaggerated. I would love to live there as opposed to the United States. In cuba theres actually a sense of community. Virtually no crime or drugs. and alot of NWOG' statements are false. most cubans do not work two jobs just to get by. Actually you get a supply of rice and steak, anything else you want you buy. and as for the tourist comment, if you go anywhere on vacation you'll be living better than the locals, remember that....thats all i have for now i gues..1 love
Welcome!

It's good to see a Cuban proud of their homeland and its accomplishments.

[Enragé]

Cuba isnt like the USSR

Cuba's government isnt a brutal totalitarian murderous regime

Cuba isnt hell

Cuba does pretty well when compared to other latin american countries

Cuba however still remains a dictatorship which we therefore should criticize while still defending what it has accomplished and against imperialism

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:55 PM
Cuba isnt like the USSR

Cuba's government isnt a brutal totalitarian murderous regime

Cuba isnt hell

Cuba does pretty well when compared to other latin american countries

Cuba however still remains a dictatorship which we therefore should criticize while still defending what it has accomplished and against imperialism
The USSR before and after Stalin was not a brutal dictatorship.

The US was more brutal in its foreign policy and slight of hand tactics in the 20th century than the Soviets ever were.

The Soviets were misguided, erroneous, and naive. Granted. However, they stood for an ideal and a goal worth supporting. Just as "modern" bourgeoisie look at their more backwards predecessors as heroic "forefathers", so shall we look upon the Soviet Union, though not as backwards, more as erroneous.

[Xiao Banfa]

You don't see the same healthy and educated population in the Dominican Republic or Haiti.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

How do you know it's not 71,000 doctors in Cuba ALONE?


Granma always want to create the best impression. They would of course count the total number of doctors.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Jun 19 2006, 06:46 PM--> (hastalavictoria @ Jun 19 2006, 06:46 PM) Comrades, please, are you all becoming so altruistic when it comes to Cuba? WE all understand that Cuba has great medical care, doctors all over the world on internationalist missions, but come on, its an authoritarian dictatorship, is this the kind of society we envision as communists? I know that its important to protect Cuba from imperialism, but, as Marxists, is necessary to criticize it. Cuba will not move on to communism, it is one party state, and dictatorship and over the proletariat, the product of Leninism and, as history has shown us, Leninism becomes state-capitalism. There is no freedom of speech, freedom of press, not even the freedom to leave there country. Im not saying that this is available in capitalism, but Cuba is not a model society, and we really need to let go. I was very idealistic when I learned of Che and Cuba, I wanted to become a guerillero, and fight like the Cubans did. But, while I still love Cuba because of its people and their solidarity attitudes, I let go and saw that Cuba is not the kind of society that I would like to see. Its not socialist, as much as Castro would like to say it is, it as a welfare state, and authoritarian dictatorship. [/b]
Oh my. You're the product of what happens when you mix Redstar's critique of Leninism with the mindless parroting of bourgeois news sources in their hateful slanders of Cuba. Get rid of the Che avatar. Fucking hypocrite.

I hear the "freedom to leave the country" lie all the time. I call it a lie because it can be debunked with a simple search on Google and Wikipedia, therefore people still spreading it are either deliberately deceiving people, or are mind-numbingly stupid. Which one is it gonna be? :lol:

Anyway, who is really blocking the Cubans from leaving? Why, none other than the United States of America! They're legally obligated to give 20,000 visas to Cubans wanting to leave per year, but they only give a small percentage of those. So, Cubans wanting to leave have to do so illegally. It is their policy that not only endangers these Cubans, but also gives them an excellent bit of propaganda that people like you swallow without question.


NWOG
Granma always want to create the best impression. They would of course count the total number of doctors.
Yes, Granma is obviously lying while the sources from a country that hates everything that the Cubans have built up over the last half century contain The Ultimate Truth. :rolleyes: Sheep.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I call it a lie because it can be debunked with a simple search on Google and Wikipedia

:rolleyes:


Anyway, who is really blocking the Cubans from leaving? Why, none other than the United States of America!

I have to partially agree here.

However, there are exceptions. Cuban doctors cannot leave the country until they have practiced their profession in Cuba for a few years, as a way of "paying back" to the free education thing.



Yes, Granma is obviously lying while the sources from a country that hates everything that the Cubans have built up over the last half century contain The Ultimate Truth. :rolleyes: Sheep.

What the hell are you talking about?

It's simple math. If there are 71,000 in total and 35,000 are overseas, then there will be left 36,000 doctors to Cubans.

Math is not U.S. propaganda.

And just so you know, I am on no-one's side, not today's regime, and certainly not the U.S. I do support Cuba's anti-imperialism, but do I support everything in Cuba? No

So stop calling me sheep. You are the one who have based yourself in a camp in this conflict; pro Cuban regime. I haven't.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Actually, im a Cuban, well born within the united states, but my parents are from Cuba.

¿Porqué se fueron tus papás?



Virtually no crime or drugs.

I think that is an understatement.

Crime will probably always exist in a society. It justs depends on the rate of crime.

Also, there have been more than a few hijackings. There are of course abuses inside families, which happens in every society (again here it is the rate that counts).

Some families have grids (or whatever it is called in English) on the windows, so to stop buglars from coming in. Some have actually experienced to have a housebreaking, and the only thing that was stolen was, yep you guessed it, the grids on the window.

But yes, Cuba has the least crime in the Western Hemisphere. But perhaps that is to relatively harsh punishments, uncertainity of the juridical system, and the highest police-civilian rate in the world?

You say no drugs. But maybe that has to do with the January 2005 campaign where the police tried to arrest every rasta because the authorities claimed they were involved in the sail of marijuana. Luckily most of them were quick enough to cut off their rastas before they were arrested.

Taliban also had a harsh drug policy, didn't they? While we often think "no drugs" sounds wonderful, how do you feel when you can't do what you want with your own body?

[Solitary Mind]

First off, thank you for the welcome, yeah not many Cubans are proud of their homeland, i absolutely love Cuba. Im visiting again in feburary. No, it's not an understatement, the lack of material things gives the cubans a sense of community, something missing in the USA. As here its "your my friend ok, i dont know you fuck you"...over there people have a sense of community and dont act in this manner. Mi Papa Se Fue Solo Porque No Le Gustaba A Castro Yo Creo, no se, no le hablao en casi 4 anos, and before that, 10 years. ive only actually seen my dad for a few months after my parents split. he came here to dabble in drugs and use women, which he has been doing a fine job of. y mi mama vino con me abuela y abuelo. I understand that all societies have criminals, but i love cuba because of its lack of crime. Honestly, i think it's good that the Cuban government is doing a good job of containing drugs. In a country where its reputation and image is already bad because of the USA, things like this are good. I plan to move to cuba in a few years time, i honestly love it over there, but it hard to say that you support Castro when you live in Miami, where it's all Cuban Exiles who *****ed and complained for nothing. way over half the cuban exiles living here have never seen a political prison that they are trying to escape, most of them get into jail once they're here, they show apathy towards their country when they're there and then leave it behind and talk shit about it when they get to the USA...and by the way, look at the rest of latin america, cuba is doing alot better than most of them

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Good luck with moving to Cuba. I am actually considering to do the same thing in a few years. Just like you I really like the sense of community in Cuba. And we Scandinavians think people from the U.S. are extremely social and friendly to strangers. You can imagine. :P

Are you planning to go to Cuba anytime soon?

What happens in Miami if you openly support Fidel?


and by the way, look at the rest of latin america, cuba is doing alot better than most of them

Truth.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I somehow doubt SmokingMan is living in Cuba. If he was, you wouldn't really expect him to criticize the government, especially not Fidel, on a internet forum. That would be bad propaganda for the regime.

[Herman]

First off, thank you for the welcome, yeah not many Cubans are proud of their homeland, i absolutely love Cuba. Im visiting again in feburary. No, it's not an understatement, the lack of material things gives the cubans a sense of community, something missing in the USA. As here its "your my friend ok, i dont know you fuck you"...over there people have a sense of community and dont act in this manner. Mi Papa Se Fue Solo Porque No Le Gustaba A Castro Yo Creo, no se, no le hablao en casi 4 anos, and before that, 10 years. ive only actually seen my dad for a few months after my parents split. he came here to dabble in drugs and use women, which he has been doing a fine job of. y mi mama vino con me abuela y abuelo. I understand that all societies have criminals, but i love cuba because of its lack of crime. Honestly, i think it's good that the Cuban government is doing a good job of containing drugs. In a country where its reputation and image is already bad because of the USA, things like this are good. I plan to move to cuba in a few years time, i honestly love it over there, but it hard to say that you support Castro when you live in Miami, where it's all Cuban Exiles who *****ed and complained for nothing. way over half the cuban exiles living here have never seen a political prison that they are trying to escape, most of them get into jail once they're here, they show apathy towards their country when they're there and then leave it behind and talk shit about it when they get to the USA...and by the way, look at the rest of latin america, cuba is doing alot better than most of them

Me estoy pensando ir a vivir a Cuba durante un ano or dos. Tendre que ahorrar dinero ahora mismo...

[Karl Marx's Camel]

RedHerman, where in Cuba would you prefer to live?

[Entrails Konfetti]

I read a few things on that myspace group (in another post on here). None of them mention Batista, they complain about how much more wealthy the United States is than Cuba, but they don't understand how the United states gains it's wealth, and thats by exploiting third-world countries. They're mad that the Castro regime controls private enterprise uncompromisingly, but if he didn't that would allow the gangsters back into the state.

I remember having a conversation with a Russian, and he told me about how envious he was of the United states because of it's wealth, but I explained to him that we have what have because we take it from you. Then the conversation just ended.

Another thing that annoyed me about what I read on that myspace group they said supporting Che to them is like supporting Hilter. But Hilter killed millions of innocents, had facilities industrially designed for mass extermination, whereas the Cuban revolution executed those who were gangsters and had close ties with gangsters, Che ordered about 1,000 executions as opposed to ordering the death of millions of innocents. In a revolutionary situtation historically there have been executions for those of the old regime. You can't equate that with genocide.

Cuba has the best healthcare and education system in Latin America, but the living conditions are what you get when the revoultion is in the third-world, and doesn't spread. It's not like they didn't try. Cuba became a beneovelent dictatorship because if it were to become communes it would only be a matter of time till they were crushed because the revolution couldn't spread, nor could it become industrialized. If Cuba were to become capitalist class divisions would become sharper, the gangsters would come back in, the living conditions for the poor would be worse, and it would become the Whorehouse of the Carribean again-- complete with Yankee saliors pissing on the statue of Jose Marti.

Whats the deal with some Cuban-Americans complaining about Castro, yet sporting Scarface clothing?

[Herman]

RedHerman, where in Cuba would you prefer to live?

Depende. No me voy a quedar toda la vida, pero unos anos para mas o menos ver como esta la cosa alli, tener experiencia de obrero, etc. Lo hago para mejorarme mas que nada, no para ganar dinero. Todavia no estoy seguro a que provincia ir.

[SmokingMan]

Bueno, veamos, primero que todos dejenme disculparme, por demorar en responder... ahora vamos por pasos, si soy cubano, y en cuba resido, talvez no lo crean, pero se que al escribir aqui pudiera estar en peligro de una represalia. Pero adelante, se debe dar un paso al frente. No puedo ir respondiendo punto por punto, porque son muchos mensajes. Voy a generalizar en español...
El mundo como todos sabemos no es perfecto, algunos pocos paises se acercan a eso, como suecia... otros estan muy lejos, ahora dire cual es mi punto de vista principal, creo principalmente en Marx, no en Lenin, este ultimo invento el gobierno totalitario... Creo que el socialismo se debe alcanzar a travez del capitalismo, al final de su vida, como se acerca mas suecia que cualquier otro pais, que a logrado eso con medios de produccion capitalistas, y economia de libre mercado, y esta mas cerca que sociedades como Cuba, o China... que no se puede lograr el socialismo imponiendolo, como paso en Cuba... que no se si lo saben, pero no somos un pais socialista, aunque digamos que si lo somos... Que todos debemos ser libres de pensar, y de seguir nuestras ideas, incluso de vivir lo mas alejados, posible, de los temas politicos, ninguna de esas dos cosas son posibles en Cuba. Si eres estudiante universitario, no puedes decir que estas en contra del sistema, porque puedes ser expulsado de la universidad, que en Cuba se dice que las calles son de los revolucionarios, cuando deberian ser de todos... que en cuba si se manifiestan las personas, muy pocas, por el miedo, por las represalias que se toman, porque estamos indefensos, cuando te opones a un regimen que lo controla todo, no tienes forma alguna de defenderte... que las manifestaciones son reprimidas por cuerpos policiales, vestidos de civiles, para que la prensa internacional piense que es realmente el pueblo el que rechaza esas manifestaciones, y no pueda decir que la policia da golpizas. Que nadie, absolutamente nadie puede vivir con lo la cuota reducida de alimentos que se les da. Que los cubanos no pueden entrar a los hoteles que ellos mismo construyen, que no tenemos acceso a la informacion, que no se nos permite tener internet, que para tener telefono tienes que ganartelo por tu actitud politica, o pagarle a algun corrupto para que te lo ponga... la Salud, esta bien, porque decir lo contrario, la atencion de urgencia es muy buena, pero la atencion primaria es pésima... que tienes que ver a un estomatologo y pagarle, para que te atienda, que ahora es que se estan operando de la vista a los cubanos, porque muchos protestaron ya que ibamos a operar a toda latinoamerica y a al resto del mundo antes de operar a los cubanos, muchas cosas mas, espero que todos puedan leerlo y entender lo que he puesto... y que no puedo decir como me conecto a internet, porque seria casi como tirarme a los leones...

Haganle caso a NWOG que todo lo que ha dicho, es cierto... y a RedHerman, te invito a quedarte a vivir en mi casa, te brindo un lugar como mi hermano...

SmokingMan

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by Matthijs+Jun 20 2006, 02:14 AM--> (Matthijs @ Jun 20 2006, 02:14 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:46 PM
Comrades, please, are you all becoming so altruistic when it comes to Cuba? WE all understand that Cuba has great medical care, doctors all over the world on internationalist missions, but come on, its an authoritarian dictatorship, is this the kind of society we envision as communists? I know that its important to protect Cuba from imperialism, but, as Marxists, is necessary to criticize it. Cuba will not move on to communism, it is one party state, and dictatorship and over the proletariat, the product of Leninism and, as history has shown us, Leninism becomes state-capitalism. There is no freedom of speech, freedom of press, not even the freedom to leave there country. Im not saying that this is available in capitalism, but Cuba is not a model society, and we really need to let go. I was very idealistic when I learned of Che and Cuba, I wanted to become a guerillero, and fight like the Cubans did. But, while I still love Cuba because of its people and their solidarity attitudes, I let go and saw that Cuba is not the kind of society that I would like to see. Its not socialist, as much as Castro would like to say it is, it as a welfare state, and authoritarian dictatorship.
Oh my. You're the product of what happens when you mix Redstar's critique of Leninism with the mindless parroting of bourgeois news sources in their hateful slanders of Cuba. Get rid of the Che avatar. Fucking hypocrite.

I hear the "freedom to leave the country" lie all the time. I call it a lie because it can be debunked with a simple search on Google and Wikipedia, therefore people still spreading it are either deliberately deceiving people, or are mind-numbingly stupid. Which one is it gonna be? :lol:

Anyway, who is really blocking the Cubans from leaving? Why, none other than the United States of America! They're legally obligated to give 20,000 visas to Cubans wanting to leave per year, but they only give a small percentage of those. So, Cubans wanting to leave have to do so illegally. It is their policy that not only endangers these Cubans, but also gives them an excellent bit of propaganda that people like you swallow without question.


NWOG
Granma always want to create the best impression. They would of course count the total number of doctors.
Yes, Granma is obviously lying while the sources from a country that hates everything that the Cubans have built up over the last half century contain The Ultimate Truth. :rolleyes: Sheep. [/b]
You can call me a hypocrite, sure, thats cool. It seems that youre obviously a Leninist. So tell me, would you like to live, as a product of revolution and this endless debate, in a society such as Cuba instead of fighting for the revolutionary goal of communism? I put the Che because he is a universal symbol of revolution, and I critcize Cuba because I am a Marxist. I would rather live In Cuba than in any other part of the world, but I criticize it because it is not socialism, and has many errors, and is an authoritarian dictatorship, but since youre a Leninist, you cant grasp that concept of libertarianism, youre still stuck in the past. I have personally met Cubans, from Cuba, who tell me what they love and what they dislike about their country, Im not a gullible sheep as you appear to be. Good luck

[CCCPneubauten]

Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I would rather live In Cuba than in any other part of the world

No you wouldn't. Have you ever been to Cuba? Let's start with the basics. If you lived in cuba you couldn't go on revleft because it is illegal to even have a typewriter in your home.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:34 AM

No you wouldn't. Have you ever been to Cuba? Let's start with the basics. If you lived in cuba you couldn't go on revleft because it is illegal to even have a typewriter in your home.
I must notice that there are FEW members of this comunity that don't share the revolutionary spirit that revolutionaryleft promotes AND REQUIRES.

I must also say that I'm glad to see the majority of the comrades here fight against capitalists propaganda whose maggots have eaten their way EVEN TO THIS FORUM COMUNITY.

well people. Let's put it like this; IT'S GREAT WHEN ONE HAS A GOVERMENT TO LOOK AFTER HIM so that he won't be able to use internet for WHATEVER PURPOSE he desires.
BECAUSE: there is SO MUCH capitalist propaganda on the internet THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE IQ OVER 100 NOT TO BE INFLUENCED BY THEIR BLATANT LIES

: Cuba isn't perfect and it looks like you guys here are simply demanding Cuba to be perfect because you convinced yourselves that there MUST BE A PARADISE in this world where everything is perfect. Well, we'll all agree that Cuba is the closest thing to paradise this world currently has SO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT IT'S NEAREST PARADISE THOUGH IT ISN'T the absolute PARADISE!

...as Fidel said "we'd rather die in paradise than survive in hell" and that realy says it all.

[SmokingMan]

Let's go, I have to write in english... well, Cuba, is no hell, far away to be paradise... I love Cuba, and Cubans... my country, my people, my land.... here where I live, where I born ... I love Cuba, cubans are friendship, solidary... for me, everything in Cuba is cute, except the goverment and Castro... have you ever thinked how bad can be a totalitary regimen ??? for example, you can think castro is good (isn't), that's fine, but if after him come a bad one ??? how much can do him, with a regimen like this ??? ...
In the other hand... all cubans must believe in Fidel ??? they don't ... if you are against it, you are dead... because you can't live in peace for the rest of your life...
Gojo, you think Cuba is near to paradise, please come here, I give you an space in my home... tae a look to the real Cuba, not the Fidel one.
Fidel always have been a prepotent man... all that he want, is to keep the power... and all the people around him, want he same... Why ?? because they live here like kings... because they are in power for years... and they know Fidel, and his totalitary regimen is the way to keep the power...
Have any one here read "The history will absolve me" (La historia me absolverá) what he said in the Moncada's judgment, was a lie... Cuba is totaly different, and we don't have Socialism, we have a bad Capitalism... a capitalism of state.

Thanx...

[Herman]

Si vieras como se vive en los EEUU... si no tienes dinero, nunca tendras nada. Al menos en Cuba, te garantizan la vida.

[Gojo]

Let me tell you something, your agruments are the ones of a blind man because you obiusly aren't aware of what's going on in the world
I know what I'm talkin' about because I lived(along with all the rest of the people I know-parents, friends..) in communism, a totalitarian regime, call it what you will and I live in capitalism. And I have mind to think, ears to hear and eyes to see

AND my mind gets all the FACTS how there are 5% of Croatia's population that controls the OTHER 95%. That's something that everybody knows here (no matter the political belief, religion, nationality...). Their control reflects in all aspects of life; economic, schoolary, social, etc. I(along with more and more people every day) put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that in socialism my people where living FAR BETTER(life standard), that in socialism my people where enjoing REAL liberty, that in socialism my people had the power in their hands, therefore they alone had their future in their hands. TODAY my future is in the hands of nationalist, capitalists, church, capitalist press and media ETC.

My eyes see the capitalist propaganda on every street corner, I see the huge jumbo comercial posters ALL OVER MY CITY AND THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, and those aren't just plain old commercial posters, they deliberatly impose role models and models which have perfect white teeth, huge tits, perfect bodies etc.
I see lots of other things which I have described in my other posts and I'm not in the mood to repeat that for someone like you

[Karl Marx's Camel]

y que no puedo decir como me conecto a internet, porque seria casi como tirarme a los leones...

Again, my spanish is very limited. But what is SmokingMan saying here? That if he says he says has internet at his home, it will be almost the same as being thrown to the lions?

Also in your post SmokingMan, are you saying that the police dress as civilians and beat protestors/demonstrators, so that human righst group in the West will not discover it?



Haganle caso a NWOG que todo lo que ha dicho, es cierto...

Thank you. :)

It's good to have a confirmation from a Cuban. Keep up the good work. I admire you.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Gojo+Jun 21 2006, 07:35 AM--> (Gojo @ Jun 21 2006, 07:35 AM)
[email protected] 21 2006, 05:34 AM

No you wouldn't. Have you ever been to Cuba? Let's start with the basics. If you lived in cuba you couldn't go on revleft because it is illegal to even have a typewriter in your home.
I must notice that there are FEW members of this comunity that don't share the revolutionary spirit that revolutionaryleft promotes AND REQUIRES.

I must also say that I'm glad to see the majority of the comrades here fight against capitalists propaganda whose maggots have eaten their way EVEN TO THIS FORUM COMUNITY.

well people. Let's put it like this; IT'S GREAT WHEN ONE HAS A GOVERMENT TO LOOK AFTER HIM so that he won't be able to use internet for WHATEVER PURPOSE he desires.
BECAUSE: there is SO MUCH capitalist propaganda on the internet THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE IQ OVER 100 NOT TO BE INFLUENCED BY THEIR BLATANT LIES

: Cuba isn't perfect and it looks like you guys here are simply demanding Cuba to be perfect because you convinced yourselves that there MUST BE A PARADISE in this world where everything is perfect. Well, we'll all agree that Cuba is the closest thing to paradise this world currently has SO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT IT'S NEAREST PARADISE THOUGH IT ISN'T the absolute PARADISE!

...as Fidel said "we'd rather die in paradise than survive in hell" and that realy says it all. [/b]
So go fucking live there if cubas so great. Cuban people barely get enough food. You see that TV in your room, they don't get that. My dad's girl friend is cuban and she knows some of the shit that goes down. Sure Batista sucked and now they have free and good healthcare but Castro has took a shit on the name of communism whether you like it or not.

[Gojo]

got me there, I've run out of will and it seems that my arguments mean nothing to simple-close minded people.
you win-that's obviusly what you want to hear. but you're far from seeing the whole picture of the world-Cuba-America relations and ties.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 08:15 PM
got me there, I've run out of will and it seems that my arguments mean nothing to simple-close minded people.
you win-that's obviusly what you want to hear. but you're far from seeing the whole picture of the world-Cuba-America relations and ties.
close-minded? Far from it. I do see your point. It is a gut reaction to defend another socialist nation but let's take it grain by grain. I recently learned today that there was and some democracy in Cuba yet the thing I don't understand is why is it utterly unknown to people all over the world?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

close-minded? Far from it. I do see your point. It is a gut reaction to defend another socialist nation but let's take it grain by grain. I recently learned today that there was and some democracy in Cuba yet the thing I don't understand is why is it utterly unknown to people all over the world?

At first I thought Cuba was democratic, too. It's not long ago I learned it was just a show. Little to no free press, freedom of speech. Cuba has no rule of law. It doesn't matter how good your lawyers are. If the Communist Party of Cuba has decided you are guilty, then you are guilty.

[SmokingMan]

Let me tell you something, your agruments are the ones of a blind man because you obiusly aren't aware of what's going on in the world
I know what I'm talkin' about because I lived(along with all the rest of the people I know-parents, friends..) in communism, a totalitarian regime, call it what you will and I live in capitalism. And I have mind to think, ears to hear and eyes to see

AND my mind gets all the FACTS how there are 5% of Croatia's population that controls the OTHER 95%. That's something that everybody knows here (no matter the political belief, religion, nationality...). Their control reflects in all aspects of life; economic, schoolary, social, etc. I(along with more and more people every day) put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that in socialism my people where living FAR BETTER(life standard), that in socialism my people where enjoing REAL liberty, that in socialism my people had the power in their hands, therefore they alone had their future in their hands. TODAY my future is in the hands of nationalist, capitalists, church, capitalist press and media ETC.

My eyes see the capitalist propaganda on every street corner, I see the huge jumbo comercial posters ALL OVER MY CITY AND THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, and those aren't just plain old commercial posters, they deliberatly impose role models and models which have perfect white teeth, huge tits, perfect bodies etc.
I see lots of other things which I have described in my other posts and I'm not in the mood to repeat that for someone like you

that's fine, you live in capitalism and you know it's bad side... but you don't live in Cuba... please respet that... what I know about the rest of the world is what my friends tell me... or what a read or I think by myself... but I can't know a little more, because Castro don't let me travel to other country... and I sure you could come to Cuba, isn't right ??
What's happening in Croatia, I don't know, but if is so bad, please come Cuba, don't be ashame, you can count with me...
There you can see comercial propaganda on every street, here you could see political propaganda on every street... (please I just want freedom)
Other things about Cuba, have you see any march of the cuban people, know you the most of them go there obliged, beacuse if they don't go, is like don't go to work that day, and you lose part of your salary, and the stimulus, if is the case ??? Know you students are taken to that's marchs obliged ?? because they must be Revolutionary (this revolutionary is referred to Fidel's definition)... and not revolutionaries can't study in a Revolutionary School... but I almost forgot... here aren't any not Revolutionary School.
In other messages I Invited some of you, to come Cuba, to stay in my home, but I forgot, if you are a foreign, and you stay at my home, here in Cuba, I'll be punished by law... can you believe that ?? well that's "sad but true" (Like Metallica Says)

and NWOG you read almost very good spanish... I don't say i have internet in my house... i just say I can't say how I'm in internet...


Also in your post SmokingMan, are you saying that the police dress as civilians and beat protestors/demonstrators, so that human righst group in the West will not discover it?

Exactly....

SmokingMan...
"Ser culto es el único modo de ser libres" Jose Martí

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Thanks, SmokingMan.

I think your english is pretty good, actually. You speak better english than I speak spanish (obviously)! :)

I recently started to watch music videos with subtitulado español. They use easy language, which makes it easier.

It's sad to know you cannot even have foreigners to stay at your home. All these restrictions.... :(


One thing i have heard, from a friend... is about the security company SEPSA. He told me they are doing special things, like anti-demonstration things. Do you know if they are involved in attacking demonstrators? I heard so from my friend. Just want to make sure it is true.... or not.




I wish it was easier for cubans to travel around. You could've stayed at my place in Norway if you ever would've traveled there! :)

Anyways, por favor, tell us more about Cuba!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Thanks, SmokingMan.

I think your english is pretty good, actually. You speak better english than I speak spanish (obviously)! :)

I recently started to watch music videos with subtitulado español. They use easy language, which makes it easier.

It's sad to know you cannot even have foreigners to stay at your home. All these restrictions.... :(


One thing i have heard, from a friend... is about the security company SEPSA. He told me they are doing special things, like anti-demonstration things. Do you know if they are involved in attacking demonstrators? I heard so from my friend. Just want to make sure it is true.... or not.




I wish it was easier for cubans to travel around. You could've stayed at my place in Norway if you ever would've traveled there! :)

Anyways, por favor, tell us more about Cuba!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Thanks, SmokingMan.

I think your english is pretty good, actually. You speak better english than I speak spanish (obviously)! :)

I recently started to watch music videos with subtitulado español. They use easy language, which makes it easier.

It's sad to know you cannot even have foreigners to stay at your home. All these restrictions.... :(


One thing i have heard, from a friend... is about the security company SEPSA. He told me they are doing special things, like anti-demonstration things. Do you know if they are involved in attacking demonstrators? I heard so from my friend. Just want to make sure it is true.... or not.




I wish it was easier for cubans to travel around. You could've stayed at my place in Norway if you ever would've traveled there! :)

Anyways, por favor, tell us more about Cuba!

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Wait smokingman, you live in Cuba? How do you go on the internet? Or on revleft?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Wait smokingman, you live in Cuba? How do you go on the internet? Or on revleft?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Wait smokingman, you live in Cuba? How do you go on the internet? Or on revleft?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 09:19 PM

At first I thought Cuba was democratic, too. It's not long ago I learned it was just a show. Little to no free press, freedom of speech. Cuba has no rule of law. It doesn't matter how good your lawyers are. If the Communist Party of Cuba has decided you are guilty, then you are guilty.
They have elections on local and many other postions in which their representitives can be recalled at any time and don't have to be members of the CP, but yes, they don't have basic freedoms.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 09:19 PM

At first I thought Cuba was democratic, too. It's not long ago I learned it was just a show. Little to no free press, freedom of speech. Cuba has no rule of law. It doesn't matter how good your lawyers are. If the Communist Party of Cuba has decided you are guilty, then you are guilty.
They have elections on local and many other postions in which their representitives can be recalled at any time and don't have to be members of the CP, but yes, they don't have basic freedoms.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 09:19 PM

At first I thought Cuba was democratic, too. It's not long ago I learned it was just a show. Little to no free press, freedom of speech. Cuba has no rule of law. It doesn't matter how good your lawyers are. If the Communist Party of Cuba has decided you are guilty, then you are guilty.
They have elections on local and many other postions in which their representitives can be recalled at any time and don't have to be members of the CP, but yes, they don't have basic freedoms.

[SmokingMan]

Well, NWOG thanx... I can write and read english a little good, but speaking i'm far away yet... but thnx
In the other hand, I have to say you that I can't, really, answer your question about SEPSA... as you know, in cuba is not freedom of press, and that things are not published, you can know that just seeing, or hearing from the indicated person...
For example when dissidents make a demostration, there you could see, always, LADA's vehicles (rusians) and they pass near o the demostration catching up the people, but they of course are dressed like normal civilians, and cars seem to be private... but really that's cars are from the state council and that persons are from the police...
One day, just a few months, there was a demostration, and there appear a lot of people, civilians (of course)... attacking demostrators... any one could think that their were really civillians, but there was a little detail... all of them was carring up a police cane.

About receiving foreign, well, that's the history, you can receive in your home, just close family, like father, mother, childs, brothers... but you can't have a friend in your house... that's completely Illegal... but that isn't all, if you are just taking a walk (or in car), with a foreign friend, the police usually will accuse you saying that you are triying to assault the foreign or have sex for money, or anything you can imagine...
Our police force is pure shit, they know nothing about Human Rights... even about they own country constitution, or the lesgislation... nothing.
Cuba isn't really a good educated people... yes the people are a good one... but they know nothing about Human Rights (of course is not our fault)... we are capable to push out an old woman, in order to take his turn to ride up a bus (well, the transportation is one of ours biggest problems)... we ride up to the bus, by the windows... we always figth at the bus, mainly when coming from the beach, drunk... we are a very noise people... at the end, Cuba is, maybe, a good coutry to take some vacations, nothing more...
Of course, I know (not every cuban) the education, of cubans, is fault of Fidel Castro Regimen...

Nothing more for now....
SmokingMan...

"and please, help cubans, tell everybody what's the reallity of CUBA"

[SmokingMan]

Well, NWOG thanx... I can write and read english a little good, but speaking i'm far away yet... but thnx
In the other hand, I have to say you that I can't, really, answer your question about SEPSA... as you know, in cuba is not freedom of press, and that things are not published, you can know that just seeing, or hearing from the indicated person...
For example when dissidents make a demostration, there you could see, always, LADA's vehicles (rusians) and they pass near o the demostration catching up the people, but they of course are dressed like normal civilians, and cars seem to be private... but really that's cars are from the state council and that persons are from the police...
One day, just a few months, there was a demostration, and there appear a lot of people, civilians (of course)... attacking demostrators... any one could think that their were really civillians, but there was a little detail... all of them was carring up a police cane.

About receiving foreign, well, that's the history, you can receive in your home, just close family, like father, mother, childs, brothers... but you can't have a friend in your house... that's completely Illegal... but that isn't all, if you are just taking a walk (or in car), with a foreign friend, the police usually will accuse you saying that you are triying to assault the foreign or have sex for money, or anything you can imagine...
Our police force is pure shit, they know nothing about Human Rights... even about they own country constitution, or the lesgislation... nothing.
Cuba isn't really a good educated people... yes the people are a good one... but they know nothing about Human Rights (of course is not our fault)... we are capable to push out an old woman, in order to take his turn to ride up a bus (well, the transportation is one of ours biggest problems)... we ride up to the bus, by the windows... we always figth at the bus, mainly when coming from the beach, drunk... we are a very noise people... at the end, Cuba is, maybe, a good coutry to take some vacations, nothing more...
Of course, I know (not every cuban) the education, of cubans, is fault of Fidel Castro Regimen...

Nothing more for now....
SmokingMan...

"and please, help cubans, tell everybody what's the reallity of CUBA"

[SmokingMan]

Well, NWOG thanx... I can write and read english a little good, but speaking i'm far away yet... but thnx
In the other hand, I have to say you that I can't, really, answer your question about SEPSA... as you know, in cuba is not freedom of press, and that things are not published, you can know that just seeing, or hearing from the indicated person...
For example when dissidents make a demostration, there you could see, always, LADA's vehicles (rusians) and they pass near o the demostration catching up the people, but they of course are dressed like normal civilians, and cars seem to be private... but really that's cars are from the state council and that persons are from the police...
One day, just a few months, there was a demostration, and there appear a lot of people, civilians (of course)... attacking demostrators... any one could think that their were really civillians, but there was a little detail... all of them was carring up a police cane.

About receiving foreign, well, that's the history, you can receive in your home, just close family, like father, mother, childs, brothers... but you can't have a friend in your house... that's completely Illegal... but that isn't all, if you are just taking a walk (or in car), with a foreign friend, the police usually will accuse you saying that you are triying to assault the foreign or have sex for money, or anything you can imagine...
Our police force is pure shit, they know nothing about Human Rights... even about they own country constitution, or the lesgislation... nothing.
Cuba isn't really a good educated people... yes the people are a good one... but they know nothing about Human Rights (of course is not our fault)... we are capable to push out an old woman, in order to take his turn to ride up a bus (well, the transportation is one of ours biggest problems)... we ride up to the bus, by the windows... we always figth at the bus, mainly when coming from the beach, drunk... we are a very noise people... at the end, Cuba is, maybe, a good coutry to take some vacations, nothing more...
Of course, I know (not every cuban) the education, of cubans, is fault of Fidel Castro Regimen...

Nothing more for now....
SmokingMan...

"and please, help cubans, tell everybody what's the reallity of CUBA"

[Karl Marx's Camel]

No problemo. :)


For example when dissidents make a demostration, there you could see, always, LADA's vehicles (rusians) and they pass near o the demostration catching up the people,

What do you mean "catching up"? I think it could mean several things.


Do you mean they grab them (take them with their hands) and put them in their civilian LADA vehicles, or something?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

No problemo. :)


For example when dissidents make a demostration, there you could see, always, LADA's vehicles (rusians) and they pass near o the demostration catching up the people,

What do you mean "catching up"? I think it could mean several things.


Do you mean they grab them (take them with their hands) and put them in their civilian LADA vehicles, or something?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

No problemo. :)


For example when dissidents make a demostration, there you could see, always, LADA's vehicles (rusians) and they pass near o the demostration catching up the people,

What do you mean "catching up"? I think it could mean several things.


Do you mean they grab them (take them with their hands) and put them in their civilian LADA vehicles, or something?

[Mariam]

Wait smokingman, you live in Cuba? How do you go on the internet? Or on revleft?

I've been following whats going on in here...but I would really like to hear an answer for those questions?

and I have a silly question of my own.. :blush:
A lot of people say that a revolutionary leader wont step down unless there is another revolution i mean to throw him out of the ruling position...so is this what has to happen in Cuba?
I mean we will go back into the same circle... ;)

[Mariam]

Wait smokingman, you live in Cuba? How do you go on the internet? Or on revleft?

I've been following whats going on in here...but I would really like to hear an answer for those questions?

and I have a silly question of my own.. :blush:
A lot of people say that a revolutionary leader wont step down unless there is another revolution i mean to throw him out of the ruling position...so is this what has to happen in Cuba?
I mean we will go back into the same circle... ;)

[Mariam]

Wait smokingman, you live in Cuba? How do you go on the internet? Or on revleft?

I've been following whats going on in here...but I would really like to hear an answer for those questions?

and I have a silly question of my own.. :blush:
A lot of people say that a revolutionary leader wont step down unless there is another revolution i mean to throw him out of the ruling position...so is this what has to happen in Cuba?
I mean we will go back into the same circle... ;)

[Solitary Mind]

First off, i can answer the computer question, because cubans can have computers, again, i have family from there and i myself have been there, and i see my TV, and when i go to cuba, i see a TV there too, obviously not with the same channels, or anything close to the amount of channels here, but thats not the point. Also, im from the United States and want to move to Cuba, and ive seen every aspect of Cuba, because i stayed with family, not in hotels or anything. I would much rather live over there. Although i am scared as to what's going to happen to Cuba after Castros death.

[Solitary Mind]

First off, i can answer the computer question, because cubans can have computers, again, i have family from there and i myself have been there, and i see my TV, and when i go to cuba, i see a TV there too, obviously not with the same channels, or anything close to the amount of channels here, but thats not the point. Also, im from the United States and want to move to Cuba, and ive seen every aspect of Cuba, because i stayed with family, not in hotels or anything. I would much rather live over there. Although i am scared as to what's going to happen to Cuba after Castros death.

[Solitary Mind]

First off, i can answer the computer question, because cubans can have computers, again, i have family from there and i myself have been there, and i see my TV, and when i go to cuba, i see a TV there too, obviously not with the same channels, or anything close to the amount of channels here, but thats not the point. Also, im from the United States and want to move to Cuba, and ive seen every aspect of Cuba, because i stayed with family, not in hotels or anything. I would much rather live over there. Although i am scared as to what's going to happen to Cuba after Castros death.

[SmokingMan]

NWOG you are right , that's was what a tried to say....
Mariam ... this question can't have answer, because Internet is illegal in Cuba, and be against of the regmen is more illegal...
In the other hand, I have to say, that cuban people have resigned and we are just waiting for Fidel dead. We don't want any revolution, but think in it for a while ... you know US don't think when they want to destroy any country... if our goverment don't make democratic changes, even after Fidel dead ... well, I can ensure that US are going to destroy us... Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

Regards... SmokingMan

[SmokingMan]

NWOG you are right , that's was what a tried to say....
Mariam ... this question can't have answer, because Internet is illegal in Cuba, and be against of the regmen is more illegal...
In the other hand, I have to say, that cuban people have resigned and we are just waiting for Fidel dead. We don't want any revolution, but think in it for a while ... you know US don't think when they want to destroy any country... if our goverment don't make democratic changes, even after Fidel dead ... well, I can ensure that US are going to destroy us... Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

Regards... SmokingMan

[SmokingMan]

NWOG you are right , that's was what a tried to say....
Mariam ... this question can't have answer, because Internet is illegal in Cuba, and be against of the regmen is more illegal...
In the other hand, I have to say, that cuban people have resigned and we are just waiting for Fidel dead. We don't want any revolution, but think in it for a while ... you know US don't think when they want to destroy any country... if our goverment don't make democratic changes, even after Fidel dead ... well, I can ensure that US are going to destroy us... Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

Regards... SmokingMan

[SmokingMan]

UFFF Solitary Mind, how can you say that ...??? if your family have a computer, must be illegal... because in Cuba don't sell computers to the people... or if you travel then maybe you could bring one to Cuba... but just maybe, is not sure... and in ther other hand... DirectTV is completely Illegal here, in Cuba.... or maybe you family are of the goverment... if you want to know how a cuban live, please you must renounce to your nationality, and take the cuban one....

Regards... SomkingMan

[SmokingMan]

UFFF Solitary Mind, how can you say that ...??? if your family have a computer, must be illegal... because in Cuba don't sell computers to the people... or if you travel then maybe you could bring one to Cuba... but just maybe, is not sure... and in ther other hand... DirectTV is completely Illegal here, in Cuba.... or maybe you family are of the goverment... if you want to know how a cuban live, please you must renounce to your nationality, and take the cuban one....

Regards... SomkingMan

[SmokingMan]

UFFF Solitary Mind, how can you say that ...??? if your family have a computer, must be illegal... because in Cuba don't sell computers to the people... or if you travel then maybe you could bring one to Cuba... but just maybe, is not sure... and in ther other hand... DirectTV is completely Illegal here, in Cuba.... or maybe you family are of the goverment... if you want to know how a cuban live, please you must renounce to your nationality, and take the cuban one....

Regards... SomkingMan

[FriedFrog]

In the other hand, I have to say, that cuban people have resigned and we are just waiting for Fidel dead. We don't want any revolution, but think in it for a while

When Fidel does die, how do you think the Cuban people will react? Will there be a vote for the next president of Cuba, or will power be transfered to Raul Castro (or someone else)?

If the United States does attack Cuba, would there be support or opposition from the Cuban people?

[FriedFrog]

In the other hand, I have to say, that cuban people have resigned and we are just waiting for Fidel dead. We don't want any revolution, but think in it for a while

When Fidel does die, how do you think the Cuban people will react? Will there be a vote for the next president of Cuba, or will power be transfered to Raul Castro (or someone else)?

If the United States does attack Cuba, would there be support or opposition from the Cuban people?

[FriedFrog]

In the other hand, I have to say, that cuban people have resigned and we are just waiting for Fidel dead. We don't want any revolution, but think in it for a while

When Fidel does die, how do you think the Cuban people will react? Will there be a vote for the next president of Cuba, or will power be transfered to Raul Castro (or someone else)?

If the United States does attack Cuba, would there be support or opposition from the Cuban people?

[Mariam]

well, I can ensure that US are going to destroy us... Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

So..(I may sound stupid)...If there is no real democracy in Cuba right now and I don't mean there is, what is holding the US from bringing their globlizied democracy now..why would they wait till Castro dies...who's going to hold them back??


Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

So..the US have to come first to bring democracy to Cuba..then Cubans will have thier own with all the international aid there is.
I'm not saying I dont care about Cuba..no I like Cuba..I wish I would have the chanse to go there...and Im ready to help in any possible way..but if Cubans are waiting for the US Cuba would turn to be another Iraq. :ph34r:

[Mariam]

well, I can ensure that US are going to destroy us... Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

So..(I may sound stupid)...If there is no real democracy in Cuba right now and I don't mean there is, what is holding the US from bringing their globlizied democracy now..why would they wait till Castro dies...who's going to hold them back??


Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

So..the US have to come first to bring democracy to Cuba..then Cubans will have thier own with all the international aid there is.
I'm not saying I dont care about Cuba..no I like Cuba..I wish I would have the chanse to go there...and Im ready to help in any possible way..but if Cubans are waiting for the US Cuba would turn to be another Iraq. :ph34r:

[Mariam]

well, I can ensure that US are going to destroy us... Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

So..(I may sound stupid)...If there is no real democracy in Cuba right now and I don't mean there is, what is holding the US from bringing their globlizied democracy now..why would they wait till Castro dies...who's going to hold them back??


Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

So..the US have to come first to bring democracy to Cuba..then Cubans will have thier own with all the international aid there is.
I'm not saying I dont care about Cuba..no I like Cuba..I wish I would have the chanse to go there...and Im ready to help in any possible way..but if Cubans are waiting for the US Cuba would turn to be another Iraq. :ph34r:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

What do you mean with "international help"?

International help, as in getting medicine, food, supplies etc.

Or international help, as in UN/US troops, for instance, taking over Cuba?

Or both?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

What do you mean with "international help"?

International help, as in getting medicine, food, supplies etc.

Or international help, as in UN/US troops, for instance, taking over Cuba?

Or both?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Then, we need to make the right thing by ourself, by we need international help, beacuse here, we are helpless...

What do you mean with "international help"?

International help, as in getting medicine, food, supplies etc.

Or international help, as in UN/US troops, for instance, taking over Cuba?

Or both?

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Jun 21 2006, 09:59 PM--> (hastalavictoria @ Jun 21 2006, 09:59 PM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not. [/b]
What does Trotskyism have to do with 'libertarian' Marxism? I am in full support of Comrade lenin, and even more and more I am loving Mao. And of course I support a few deformed worker's states

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Jun 21 2006, 09:59 PM--> (hastalavictoria @ Jun 21 2006, 09:59 PM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not. [/b]
What does Trotskyism have to do with 'libertarian' Marxism? I am in full support of Comrade lenin, and even more and more I am loving Mao. And of course I support a few deformed worker's states

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Jun 21 2006, 09:59 PM--> (hastalavictoria @ Jun 21 2006, 09:59 PM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not. [/b]
What does Trotskyism have to do with 'libertarian' Marxism? I am in full support of Comrade lenin, and even more and more I am loving Mao. And of course I support a few deformed worker's states

[Karl Marx's Camel]

and even more and more I am loving Mao.

Does he love you back?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

and even more and more I am loving Mao.

Does he love you back?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

and even more and more I am loving Mao.

Does he love you back?

[black magick hustla]

SmokingMan.

Tienes toda la razón. Estoy muy interesado por lo que dices.


Estoy harto de los apologistas castristas que plagan este foro. Si el socialismo es como ellos lo perciben--el régimen totalitario de un partido de vanguardia-- yo no soy socialista.

Estoy consciente que Cuba es mucho mejor que lugares como Haiti o República Dominicana. Pero el socialismo es una tensión hacia algo mejor, no es simplemente comformarte con pequeñas victorias. Simplemente porque la Revolución Cubana trajo algunas mejorías, no significa que esta justificado el totalitarismo y el anticomunismo del Partido Comunista Cubano.

Qué se vallán a la mierda todos esos degenerados trotskistas, leninistas, y estalinistas! Las ideas de Marx no tienen nada que ver con la centralización de poder en un partido de vanguardia. Esos son cuentos de hadas de anticomunistas como Lenin, Trotsky, Mao y amigos.



Aquellos Americanos que se envuelven en banderas rojas y que proclaman que es mejor vivir en Cuba que en EUA estan completamente mal de la cabeza. Claro, en EUA no puedes hacer nada sin capital, pero probablemente una persona que vive con salario minimo en EUA tiene mejor calidad de vida que un Cubano.

El comunismo aplicado por la mano de hierro de una burocracia no es comunismo.

----

SmokingMan.

You are completely right. I am very interested in what you are saying.


I am fucking tired of all the castrist aplogists that plague this board. If socialism is how they perceive it--a regime of the vanguard party-- I am not a socialist.

I am conscious that Cuba is much better than places like Haiti or Dominican Republic. But socialism is a tension toward something better, not simple comformity for small victories. Just because the Cuban Revolution brought some good things, doesn't means that the totalitarian regime of the Cuban Communist Party is justified.

All those degenerates like trotskysts, leninists, and stalinists should go to hell! The ideas of Marx have nothing to do with the centralization of power in a vanguard party. Those are fairy tales made up by Lenin, Trotsky, Mao and friends.



Those americans who wave red flags and speak about how life in Cuba is better than in America are insane. Sure, in US you cannot do anything without capital, but an american with a minimum wage is doing better than the average Cuban.

Communism applied by the iron fist of a bureacracy is not communism.

[black magick hustla]

SmokingMan.

Tienes toda la razón. Estoy muy interesado por lo que dices.


Estoy harto de los apologistas castristas que plagan este foro. Si el socialismo es como ellos lo perciben--el régimen totalitario de un partido de vanguardia-- yo no soy socialista.

Estoy consciente que Cuba es mucho mejor que lugares como Haiti o República Dominicana. Pero el socialismo es una tensión hacia algo mejor, no es simplemente comformarte con pequeñas victorias. Simplemente porque la Revolución Cubana trajo algunas mejorías, no significa que esta justificado el totalitarismo y el anticomunismo del Partido Comunista Cubano.

Qué se vallán a la mierda todos esos degenerados trotskistas, leninistas, y estalinistas! Las ideas de Marx no tienen nada que ver con la centralización de poder en un partido de vanguardia. Esos son cuentos de hadas de anticomunistas como Lenin, Trotsky, Mao y amigos.



Aquellos Americanos que se envuelven en banderas rojas y que proclaman que es mejor vivir en Cuba que en EUA estan completamente mal de la cabeza. Claro, en EUA no puedes hacer nada sin capital, pero probablemente una persona que vive con salario minimo en EUA tiene mejor calidad de vida que un Cubano.

El comunismo aplicado por la mano de hierro de una burocracia no es comunismo.

----

SmokingMan.

You are completely right. I am very interested in what you are saying.


I am fucking tired of all the castrist aplogists that plague this board. If socialism is how they perceive it--a regime of the vanguard party-- I am not a socialist.

I am conscious that Cuba is much better than places like Haiti or Dominican Republic. But socialism is a tension toward something better, not simple comformity for small victories. Just because the Cuban Revolution brought some good things, doesn't means that the totalitarian regime of the Cuban Communist Party is justified.

All those degenerates like trotskysts, leninists, and stalinists should go to hell! The ideas of Marx have nothing to do with the centralization of power in a vanguard party. Those are fairy tales made up by Lenin, Trotsky, Mao and friends.



Those americans who wave red flags and speak about how life in Cuba is better than in America are insane. Sure, in US you cannot do anything without capital, but an american with a minimum wage is doing better than the average Cuban.

Communism applied by the iron fist of a bureacracy is not communism.

[black magick hustla]

SmokingMan.

Tienes toda la razón. Estoy muy interesado por lo que dices.


Estoy harto de los apologistas castristas que plagan este foro. Si el socialismo es como ellos lo perciben--el régimen totalitario de un partido de vanguardia-- yo no soy socialista.

Estoy consciente que Cuba es mucho mejor que lugares como Haiti o República Dominicana. Pero el socialismo es una tensión hacia algo mejor, no es simplemente comformarte con pequeñas victorias. Simplemente porque la Revolución Cubana trajo algunas mejorías, no significa que esta justificado el totalitarismo y el anticomunismo del Partido Comunista Cubano.

Qué se vallán a la mierda todos esos degenerados trotskistas, leninistas, y estalinistas! Las ideas de Marx no tienen nada que ver con la centralización de poder en un partido de vanguardia. Esos son cuentos de hadas de anticomunistas como Lenin, Trotsky, Mao y amigos.



Aquellos Americanos que se envuelven en banderas rojas y que proclaman que es mejor vivir en Cuba que en EUA estan completamente mal de la cabeza. Claro, en EUA no puedes hacer nada sin capital, pero probablemente una persona que vive con salario minimo en EUA tiene mejor calidad de vida que un Cubano.

El comunismo aplicado por la mano de hierro de una burocracia no es comunismo.

----

SmokingMan.

You are completely right. I am very interested in what you are saying.


I am fucking tired of all the castrist aplogists that plague this board. If socialism is how they perceive it--a regime of the vanguard party-- I am not a socialist.

I am conscious that Cuba is much better than places like Haiti or Dominican Republic. But socialism is a tension toward something better, not simple comformity for small victories. Just because the Cuban Revolution brought some good things, doesn't means that the totalitarian regime of the Cuban Communist Party is justified.

All those degenerates like trotskysts, leninists, and stalinists should go to hell! The ideas of Marx have nothing to do with the centralization of power in a vanguard party. Those are fairy tales made up by Lenin, Trotsky, Mao and friends.



Those americans who wave red flags and speak about how life in Cuba is better than in America are insane. Sure, in US you cannot do anything without capital, but an american with a minimum wage is doing better than the average Cuban.

Communism applied by the iron fist of a bureacracy is not communism.

[Entrails Konfetti]

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?

If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship, or you'd get crushed by a counter-revolution (i.e. agents of imperialist governments inside the country, advancing armies from imperialist countries ect.)

[Entrails Konfetti]

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?

If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship, or you'd get crushed by a counter-revolution (i.e. agents of imperialist governments inside the country, advancing armies from imperialist countries ect.)

[Entrails Konfetti]

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?

If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship, or you'd get crushed by a counter-revolution (i.e. agents of imperialist governments inside the country, advancing armies from imperialist countries ect.)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 10:11 PM
And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?

If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship, or you'd get crushed by a counter-revolution (i.e. agents of imperialist governments inside the country, advancing armies from imperialist countries ect.)
who spoke about anarchism?

While I would completely support an anarchist revolution in Cuba (even if analyzing it from a historical materialist point of view is not a good idea) I support much more a welfare-state like democratic government rather than the deformity Cuba is going through.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 10:11 PM
And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?

If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship, or you'd get crushed by a counter-revolution (i.e. agents of imperialist governments inside the country, advancing armies from imperialist countries ect.)
who spoke about anarchism?

While I would completely support an anarchist revolution in Cuba (even if analyzing it from a historical materialist point of view is not a good idea) I support much more a welfare-state like democratic government rather than the deformity Cuba is going through.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 10:11 PM
And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?

If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship, or you'd get crushed by a counter-revolution (i.e. agents of imperialist governments inside the country, advancing armies from imperialist countries ect.)
who spoke about anarchism?

While I would completely support an anarchist revolution in Cuba (even if analyzing it from a historical materialist point of view is not a good idea) I support much more a welfare-state like democratic government rather than the deformity Cuba is going through.

[Mariam]

Just because the Cuban Revolution brought some good things, doesn't means that the totalitarian regime of the Cuban Communist Party is justified.

Thats pretty correct...we all hold great respect for what the Cuban revolution has brought, but well all see what the hell is going on in Cuba...even if we are not living it but im sure we can understand what the hell is going there.
Come on its not like that you have to be a Castro fan to be a revolutionary or so..

[Mariam]

Just because the Cuban Revolution brought some good things, doesn't means that the totalitarian regime of the Cuban Communist Party is justified.

Thats pretty correct...we all hold great respect for what the Cuban revolution has brought, but well all see what the hell is going on in Cuba...even if we are not living it but im sure we can understand what the hell is going there.
Come on its not like that you have to be a Castro fan to be a revolutionary or so..

[Mariam]

Just because the Cuban Revolution brought some good things, doesn't means that the totalitarian regime of the Cuban Communist Party is justified.

Thats pretty correct...we all hold great respect for what the Cuban revolution has brought, but well all see what the hell is going on in Cuba...even if we are not living it but im sure we can understand what the hell is going there.
Come on its not like that you have to be a Castro fan to be a revolutionary or so..

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:15 PM
who spoke about anarchism?

Not you sorry, but I assumed thats what you meant.


While I would completely support an anarchist revolution in Cuba (even if analyzing it from a historical materialist point of view is not a good idea) I support much more a welfare-state like democratic government rather than the deformity Cuba is going through.

They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:15 PM
who spoke about anarchism?

Not you sorry, but I assumed thats what you meant.


While I would completely support an anarchist revolution in Cuba (even if analyzing it from a historical materialist point of view is not a good idea) I support much more a welfare-state like democratic government rather than the deformity Cuba is going through.

They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:15 PM
who spoke about anarchism?

Not you sorry, but I assumed thats what you meant.


While I would completely support an anarchist revolution in Cuba (even if analyzing it from a historical materialist point of view is not a good idea) I support much more a welfare-state like democratic government rather than the deformity Cuba is going through.

They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 10:20 PM


They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters.
I do not know about this.

I am not familiar enough with the situation of Cuba to be able to refute that. However, I do not think the Cuban people would let that shit happen.

It would be interesting to hear Smokingman's opinion.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 10:20 PM


They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters.
I do not know about this.

I am not familiar enough with the situation of Cuba to be able to refute that. However, I do not think the Cuban people would let that shit happen.

It would be interesting to hear Smokingman's opinion.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 10:20 PM


They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters.
I do not know about this.

I am not familiar enough with the situation of Cuba to be able to refute that. However, I do not think the Cuban people would let that shit happen.

It would be interesting to hear Smokingman's opinion.

[SmokingMan]

First Thanx MARMOT ... we are in agree... then let's me answer some questions... we don't want US to attack us... when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ?? because Fidel is a carismatic leader, (like Hitler) and he can obtain from the people, whatever he want, (well, today is no exactly like that, his pupularity is getting down)... we don't want the US Democracy (that's is better than Cuban, at least for his own people)... if the US attack Cuba, of course there will be an opposition... any want, wants to be his family die, or his country destroyed... no ones wants that... But of course, if they want, they are going to destroy us, exactly like have doing with Iraq... or Afganistan.
We with USA, only want to have normal international relationships... we don't any more, our country figthting with everybody...breaking relationships... for example, USA and EU, a few month ago, were sending some help to the cuban people due to som hurricanes, and you know what Castro said ?? "The cuban people don't need that" ... shit, he don't need ... of course we need, for example in Cuba we have some people waiting for recover your home since 90's due to hurricane... and the cuban people don't need that ??? He must be blind, or are lying shamelessly.
When I asking for help, is not about medical, not military neither... What we need really, is communicate the world what is hapenning here in Cuba, denouncing our true whenever you can... what we prefer, we prefer that cuba's regimen do some democratic changes... but we aren't blind and we know that isn't gone happen.
The transition will be severe, but it must be...

Thnx... SmokingMan
"and Again sorry for my english, sometime I don't exactly how to say what i want to say... and then you can misunderstand me"

[SmokingMan]

First Thanx MARMOT ... we are in agree... then let's me answer some questions... we don't want US to attack us... when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ?? because Fidel is a carismatic leader, (like Hitler) and he can obtain from the people, whatever he want, (well, today is no exactly like that, his pupularity is getting down)... we don't want the US Democracy (that's is better than Cuban, at least for his own people)... if the US attack Cuba, of course there will be an opposition... any want, wants to be his family die, or his country destroyed... no ones wants that... But of course, if they want, they are going to destroy us, exactly like have doing with Iraq... or Afganistan.
We with USA, only want to have normal international relationships... we don't any more, our country figthting with everybody...breaking relationships... for example, USA and EU, a few month ago, were sending some help to the cuban people due to som hurricanes, and you know what Castro said ?? "The cuban people don't need that" ... shit, he don't need ... of course we need, for example in Cuba we have some people waiting for recover your home since 90's due to hurricane... and the cuban people don't need that ??? He must be blind, or are lying shamelessly.
When I asking for help, is not about medical, not military neither... What we need really, is communicate the world what is hapenning here in Cuba, denouncing our true whenever you can... what we prefer, we prefer that cuba's regimen do some democratic changes... but we aren't blind and we know that isn't gone happen.
The transition will be severe, but it must be...

Thnx... SmokingMan
"and Again sorry for my english, sometime I don't exactly how to say what i want to say... and then you can misunderstand me"

[SmokingMan]

First Thanx MARMOT ... we are in agree... then let's me answer some questions... we don't want US to attack us... when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ?? because Fidel is a carismatic leader, (like Hitler) and he can obtain from the people, whatever he want, (well, today is no exactly like that, his pupularity is getting down)... we don't want the US Democracy (that's is better than Cuban, at least for his own people)... if the US attack Cuba, of course there will be an opposition... any want, wants to be his family die, or his country destroyed... no ones wants that... But of course, if they want, they are going to destroy us, exactly like have doing with Iraq... or Afganistan.
We with USA, only want to have normal international relationships... we don't any more, our country figthting with everybody...breaking relationships... for example, USA and EU, a few month ago, were sending some help to the cuban people due to som hurricanes, and you know what Castro said ?? "The cuban people don't need that" ... shit, he don't need ... of course we need, for example in Cuba we have some people waiting for recover your home since 90's due to hurricane... and the cuban people don't need that ??? He must be blind, or are lying shamelessly.
When I asking for help, is not about medical, not military neither... What we need really, is communicate the world what is hapenning here in Cuba, denouncing our true whenever you can... what we prefer, we prefer that cuba's regimen do some democratic changes... but we aren't blind and we know that isn't gone happen.
The transition will be severe, but it must be...

Thnx... SmokingMan
"and Again sorry for my english, sometime I don't exactly how to say what i want to say... and then you can misunderstand me"

[Entrails Konfetti]

IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything. However if such a thing did happen, it depends if the Cuban Communist Party bureaucrats would step down from power-- some might, some might not.

Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread. Maybe he's trying to keep the message in the bottle floating in the ocean.

[Entrails Konfetti]

IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything. However if such a thing did happen, it depends if the Cuban Communist Party bureaucrats would step down from power-- some might, some might not.

Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread. Maybe he's trying to keep the message in the bottle floating in the ocean.

[Entrails Konfetti]

IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything. However if such a thing did happen, it depends if the Cuban Communist Party bureaucrats would step down from power-- some might, some might not.

Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread. Maybe he's trying to keep the message in the bottle floating in the ocean.

[SmokingMan]

EL KABLAMO... well, why we have to go back ?? what cuban people want is to go away, to advance, not go back, or stay like we are...


[QUOTE]They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters. [\QUOTE]
Well, you have a closed mind... why do you think, that keeping Communist Party (and just that party) is the only way to keep Cuba Independency ?? Why do you think we are going to let gansters come here to take whatever they want ?? Have this some relation with Human Rights violations ??

Regards... SmokingMan

[SmokingMan]

EL KABLAMO... well, why we have to go back ?? what cuban people want is to go away, to advance, not go back, or stay like we are...


[QUOTE]They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters. [\QUOTE]
Well, you have a closed mind... why do you think, that keeping Communist Party (and just that party) is the only way to keep Cuba Independency ?? Why do you think we are going to let gansters come here to take whatever they want ?? Have this some relation with Human Rights violations ??

Regards... SmokingMan

[SmokingMan]

EL KABLAMO... well, why we have to go back ?? what cuban people want is to go away, to advance, not go back, or stay like we are...


[QUOTE]They can't have a nanny-state, for one thing once the Communist Party in Cuba is gone, the gangsters will come back and reclaim everything, and everything will be just the way it was in Batistas regime (though probably not much of a whorehouse). For another thing, most nanny-states are just lesser imperialists, like Scandinavia. Cuba couldn't ever get to that status, with Social-Democrats they'd just become easier prospects to imperialists as opposed to the gangsters. [\QUOTE]
Well, you have a closed mind... why do you think, that keeping Communist Party (and just that party) is the only way to keep Cuba Independency ?? Why do you think we are going to let gansters come here to take whatever they want ?? Have this some relation with Human Rights violations ??

Regards... SmokingMan

[Karl Marx's Camel]

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?


Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too.


If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship,

Is it not somewhat a military dictatorship now?

The media (talking about TV here, but the same goes for newspapers) is so militarized that sometimes the news speaker is wearing a military uniform while reading the news. That's how closely tied they are.

I think like one third of those in the central commitee are veterans from foreign military missions. I can check this up tommorow just to be sure.


Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread.

You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything.
Going back to the cold war, are we?

Back then, a lot of music was degenerate and forbidden.

Back then (correct me if I am wrong), having a few dollars in your pocket could mean heavy punishments.

Things were even more worse than now.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?


Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too.


If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship,

Is it not somewhat a military dictatorship now?

The media (talking about TV here, but the same goes for newspapers) is so militarized that sometimes the news speaker is wearing a military uniform while reading the news. That's how closely tied they are.

I think like one third of those in the central commitee are veterans from foreign military missions. I can check this up tommorow just to be sure.


Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread.

You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything.
Going back to the cold war, are we?

Back then, a lot of music was degenerate and forbidden.

Back then (correct me if I am wrong), having a few dollars in your pocket could mean heavy punishments.

Things were even more worse than now.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?


Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too.


If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship,

Is it not somewhat a military dictatorship now?

The media (talking about TV here, but the same goes for newspapers) is so militarized that sometimes the news speaker is wearing a military uniform while reading the news. That's how closely tied they are.

I think like one third of those in the central commitee are veterans from foreign military missions. I can check this up tommorow just to be sure.


Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread.

You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything.
Going back to the cold war, are we?

Back then, a lot of music was degenerate and forbidden.

Back then (correct me if I am wrong), having a few dollars in your pocket could mean heavy punishments.

Things were even more worse than now.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smoking man,

Hello-- Hola, I havec a few questions for you.

Do most of the people in Cuba want capitalism?

Also, would the people in Cuba want to hang around longer under a similar revolutionary-socialist-regime in hopes that revolution will spread, which could help their situation?

Because most governments decide who gets what and how, if there were a more democratic system in Cuba do you think average Cubans could get greater wealth and liberties?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smoking man,

Hello-- Hola, I havec a few questions for you.

Do most of the people in Cuba want capitalism?

Also, would the people in Cuba want to hang around longer under a similar revolutionary-socialist-regime in hopes that revolution will spread, which could help their situation?

Because most governments decide who gets what and how, if there were a more democratic system in Cuba do you think average Cubans could get greater wealth and liberties?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smoking man,

Hello-- Hola, I havec a few questions for you.

Do most of the people in Cuba want capitalism?

Also, would the people in Cuba want to hang around longer under a similar revolutionary-socialist-regime in hopes that revolution will spread, which could help their situation?

Because most governments decide who gets what and how, if there were a more democratic system in Cuba do you think average Cubans could get greater wealth and liberties?

[Mariam]

Somkingman..your english is just fine..


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far
Any way because Im the one with the stupid questions...
now before we have a communist society or a revolution don't we first need to have a capitalist one??


when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ??

I got that..but Cubans are waiting for Castro to die..what the hell get someone to kill him!!

Ya..and I would really like to ask about the Cuban five..are you with or against what happened to them?

[Mariam]

Somkingman..your english is just fine..


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far
Any way because Im the one with the stupid questions...
now before we have a communist society or a revolution don't we first need to have a capitalist one??


when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ??

I got that..but Cubans are waiting for Castro to die..what the hell get someone to kill him!!

Ya..and I would really like to ask about the Cuban five..are you with or against what happened to them?

[Mariam]

Somkingman..your english is just fine..


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far
Any way because Im the one with the stupid questions...
now before we have a communist society or a revolution don't we first need to have a capitalist one??


when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ??

I got that..but Cubans are waiting for Castro to die..what the hell get someone to kill him!!

Ya..and I would really like to ask about the Cuban five..are you with or against what happened to them?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:41 PM
Well, you have a closed mind... why do you think, that keeping Communist Party (and just that party) is the only way to keep Cuba Independency ?? Why do you think we are going to let gansters come here to take whatever they want ?? Have this some relation with Human Rights violations ??

Regards... SmokingMan
I don't think its the only way.

From what I know it seems safer from imperialism right now than having the workers directly control the means of production, and having Cuba organized in a federation of communes.

Maybe you can prove me wrong. But for citizens of such an impoverished country to hold communes, and the means of production-- that requires alot of accepting the tasks you'd have to play. Much more hard work than it is now, and you'd have to be very well organized against the imperialist armies. That situation you'd be in could go on for decades until it catches on to other parts of the world.

The reason why I say it's probably safer for Cuba to have its anti-Imperialist dictatorship, is because historically when revolutions didn't spread fast and far enough, and the majority of the proletariat were killed in action the party transformed itself into a millitary dictatorship in hopes that it free itself from that situation one day when revolution caught. But the defect in that has been the party bureaucrats would get fat and happy, and the revolution did happen to spread but they party didn't want any part of it.

As for the gangsters coming back into Cuba, some of them did own property and I'm sure in some areas that united states may happen to reconquer they'd be happy to hand it back to them.

SmokingMan, I'm all ears, you tell me what Cuba's options are once Castro kicks the bucket.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:41 PM
Well, you have a closed mind... why do you think, that keeping Communist Party (and just that party) is the only way to keep Cuba Independency ?? Why do you think we are going to let gansters come here to take whatever they want ?? Have this some relation with Human Rights violations ??

Regards... SmokingMan
I don't think its the only way.

From what I know it seems safer from imperialism right now than having the workers directly control the means of production, and having Cuba organized in a federation of communes.

Maybe you can prove me wrong. But for citizens of such an impoverished country to hold communes, and the means of production-- that requires alot of accepting the tasks you'd have to play. Much more hard work than it is now, and you'd have to be very well organized against the imperialist armies. That situation you'd be in could go on for decades until it catches on to other parts of the world.

The reason why I say it's probably safer for Cuba to have its anti-Imperialist dictatorship, is because historically when revolutions didn't spread fast and far enough, and the majority of the proletariat were killed in action the party transformed itself into a millitary dictatorship in hopes that it free itself from that situation one day when revolution caught. But the defect in that has been the party bureaucrats would get fat and happy, and the revolution did happen to spread but they party didn't want any part of it.

As for the gangsters coming back into Cuba, some of them did own property and I'm sure in some areas that united states may happen to reconquer they'd be happy to hand it back to them.

SmokingMan, I'm all ears, you tell me what Cuba's options are once Castro kicks the bucket.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:41 PM
Well, you have a closed mind... why do you think, that keeping Communist Party (and just that party) is the only way to keep Cuba Independency ?? Why do you think we are going to let gansters come here to take whatever they want ?? Have this some relation with Human Rights violations ??

Regards... SmokingMan
I don't think its the only way.

From what I know it seems safer from imperialism right now than having the workers directly control the means of production, and having Cuba organized in a federation of communes.

Maybe you can prove me wrong. But for citizens of such an impoverished country to hold communes, and the means of production-- that requires alot of accepting the tasks you'd have to play. Much more hard work than it is now, and you'd have to be very well organized against the imperialist armies. That situation you'd be in could go on for decades until it catches on to other parts of the world.

The reason why I say it's probably safer for Cuba to have its anti-Imperialist dictatorship, is because historically when revolutions didn't spread fast and far enough, and the majority of the proletariat were killed in action the party transformed itself into a millitary dictatorship in hopes that it free itself from that situation one day when revolution caught. But the defect in that has been the party bureaucrats would get fat and happy, and the revolution did happen to spread but they party didn't want any part of it.

As for the gangsters coming back into Cuba, some of them did own property and I'm sure in some areas that united states may happen to reconquer they'd be happy to hand it back to them.

SmokingMan, I'm all ears, you tell me what Cuba's options are once Castro kicks the bucket.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by NWOG+Jun 22 2006, 10:42 PM--> (NWOG @ Jun 22 2006, 10:42 PM) Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too. [/b]
Well it's not like all of them look after their own arses, like the Batista government did-- they tried to have policies for the benefit of the proletariat. I'll explain more later.


Is it not a military dictatorship now?

Historically any type of Communist revolution that didn't spread fast and far enough either got crushed or became a military dictatorship. My point was being that an Anarchist revolution right now would just end in the same results.


You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.

Cuba doesn't have much material wealth to go around, so people will dissent because of what they don't have, and wish for better conditions. But what are you supposed to do when you can't give them those conditions, but at the same try have to appear strong infront of imperialist nations. The imperialists will exploit those weaknesses. When the imperialists gain enough influence in Cuba-- there goes trying to keep Cuba safe from imperialism in hopes that other revolutions will spread and save them.

To finish your first question, during Batistas time there was wealth... but that was only routed to the upper-classes and gangsters, the people wanted to get at that wealth, but that wealth came from a liberal economy and different trade partners. So the Revolution thought it would have the same amount of trade, it may of have been helped with the USSR, but when they went down the tubes so did Cubas living conditions. Its not like the Communist Party members are living as wealthy as the Government of the Batista regime.


Going back to the cold war, are we?

No, because during the cold war the USSR tried to stop other revolutions from even happening, the bureaucrats wanted to stay fat and happy. If revolutions spread fast and far, there won't be a chance of a bureacratic caste evolving.


Mariam
now before we have a communist society or a revolution don't we first need to have a capitalist one??

That all depends, but if the revolution spreads to the first world there is greater wealth there which can help out the third world, not to mention how much influence the new socialist first world countries would have over the third-world nations it exploits. Though also maybe if a continent of such as South America was all united by a Communist Revolution, there should be enough wealth with in it to build socialism, and would have an influence in the USA, the USA could practically fall to it.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by NWOG+Jun 22 2006, 10:42 PM--> (NWOG @ Jun 22 2006, 10:42 PM) Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too. [/b]
Well it's not like all of them look after their own arses, like the Batista government did-- they tried to have policies for the benefit of the proletariat. I'll explain more later.


Is it not a military dictatorship now?

Historically any type of Communist revolution that didn't spread fast and far enough either got crushed or became a military dictatorship. My point was being that an Anarchist revolution right now would just end in the same results.


You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.

Cuba doesn't have much material wealth to go around, so people will dissent because of what they don't have, and wish for better conditions. But what are you supposed to do when you can't give them those conditions, but at the same try have to appear strong infront of imperialist nations. The imperialists will exploit those weaknesses. When the imperialists gain enough influence in Cuba-- there goes trying to keep Cuba safe from imperialism in hopes that other revolutions will spread and save them.

To finish your first question, during Batistas time there was wealth... but that was only routed to the upper-classes and gangsters, the people wanted to get at that wealth, but that wealth came from a liberal economy and different trade partners. So the Revolution thought it would have the same amount of trade, it may of have been helped with the USSR, but when they went down the tubes so did Cubas living conditions. Its not like the Communist Party members are living as wealthy as the Government of the Batista regime.


Going back to the cold war, are we?

No, because during the cold war the USSR tried to stop other revolutions from even happening, the bureaucrats wanted to stay fat and happy. If revolutions spread fast and far, there won't be a chance of a bureacratic caste evolving.


Mariam
now before we have a communist society or a revolution don't we first need to have a capitalist one??

That all depends, but if the revolution spreads to the first world there is greater wealth there which can help out the third world, not to mention how much influence the new socialist first world countries would have over the third-world nations it exploits. Though also maybe if a continent of such as South America was all united by a Communist Revolution, there should be enough wealth with in it to build socialism, and would have an influence in the USA, the USA could practically fall to it.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by NWOG+Jun 22 2006, 10:42 PM--> (NWOG @ Jun 22 2006, 10:42 PM) Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too. [/b]
Well it's not like all of them look after their own arses, like the Batista government did-- they tried to have policies for the benefit of the proletariat. I'll explain more later.


Is it not a military dictatorship now?

Historically any type of Communist revolution that didn't spread fast and far enough either got crushed or became a military dictatorship. My point was being that an Anarchist revolution right now would just end in the same results.


You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.

Cuba doesn't have much material wealth to go around, so people will dissent because of what they don't have, and wish for better conditions. But what are you supposed to do when you can't give them those conditions, but at the same try have to appear strong infront of imperialist nations. The imperialists will exploit those weaknesses. When the imperialists gain enough influence in Cuba-- there goes trying to keep Cuba safe from imperialism in hopes that other revolutions will spread and save them.

To finish your first question, during Batistas time there was wealth... but that was only routed to the upper-classes and gangsters, the people wanted to get at that wealth, but that wealth came from a liberal economy and different trade partners. So the Revolution thought it would have the same amount of trade, it may of have been helped with the USSR, but when they went down the tubes so did Cubas living conditions. Its not like the Communist Party members are living as wealthy as the Government of the Batista regime.


Going back to the cold war, are we?

No, because during the cold war the USSR tried to stop other revolutions from even happening, the bureaucrats wanted to stay fat and happy. If revolutions spread fast and far, there won't be a chance of a bureacratic caste evolving.


Mariam
now before we have a communist society or a revolution don't we first need to have a capitalist one??

That all depends, but if the revolution spreads to the first world there is greater wealth there which can help out the third world, not to mention how much influence the new socialist first world countries would have over the third-world nations it exploits. Though also maybe if a continent of such as South America was all united by a Communist Revolution, there should be enough wealth with in it to build socialism, and would have an influence in the USA, the USA could practically fall to it.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Anyone here think that if the embargo was lifted off Cuba the living conditions would approve, and also bring down dissent?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Anyone here think that if the embargo was lifted off Cuba the living conditions would approve, and also bring down dissent?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Anyone here think that if the embargo was lifted off Cuba the living conditions would approve, and also bring down dissent?

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by CCCPneubauten+Jun 22 2006, 10:57 AM--> (CCCPneubauten @ Jun 22 2006, 10:57 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 09:59 PM

[email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not.
What does Trotskyism have to do with 'libertarian' Marxism? I am in full support of Comrade lenin, and even more and more I am loving Mao. And of course I support a few deformed worker's states [/b]
So youre in love with Mao huh? What a cult that is. Sad that "communists" put their whole support behind a single man, kind of like how religious people pray andd love their so-called "God".

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by CCCPneubauten+Jun 22 2006, 10:57 AM--> (CCCPneubauten @ Jun 22 2006, 10:57 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 09:59 PM

[email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not.
What does Trotskyism have to do with 'libertarian' Marxism? I am in full support of Comrade lenin, and even more and more I am loving Mao. And of course I support a few deformed worker's states [/b]
So youre in love with Mao huh? What a cult that is. Sad that "communists" put their whole support behind a single man, kind of like how religious people pray andd love their so-called "God".

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by CCCPneubauten+Jun 22 2006, 10:57 AM--> (CCCPneubauten @ Jun 22 2006, 10:57 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 09:59 PM

[email protected] 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Umm...Marxism and 'libertarian' ideals aren't to be mixed. Orthadox Marxism is one with a deeply centralized state.

No way around that one.

Please, pick a side and stay with it.
Wait a second, you're a trotskyist, you have no right to say that libertarianism doesnt mix with Marxism. Im a libertarian Marxist, not an authoritarian despot, and Ill stay as such.

And to all you altruistic Cuba lovers, what the fuck is so wrong with criticizing Castro and Cuba? Im a damn Marxist, critizism is a fundamental part of that. Cuba is no goddam paradise, its a good place to live, but no paradise.

To Gojo, what the hell are you talking about? Communism is not a paradise, its a society envisioned through a scientific critisism of capitalism and with historical materialism. If a Cuban society is as far as your obviously small brain reaches, what the hell are you doing on revleft? We are communists, Cuba is not.
What does Trotskyism have to do with 'libertarian' Marxism? I am in full support of Comrade lenin, and even more and more I am loving Mao. And of course I support a few deformed worker's states [/b]
So youre in love with Mao huh? What a cult that is. Sad that "communists" put their whole support behind a single man, kind of like how religious people pray andd love their so-called "God".

[which doctor]

Do most Cubans want capitalism after Fidel is dead?

[which doctor]

Do most Cubans want capitalism after Fidel is dead?

[which doctor]

Do most Cubans want capitalism after Fidel is dead?

[Gojo]

FACTS: Cuba is a small island "few" milles from the BIGGEST and CRUELEST opressor the world is faced with in the last decades. People from this biggest and cruelest state have ownED land and all other kinds of property on that island. Those things have been taken away from them by the islands revolution. They want those things back. Fat, greedy, mercyless capitalist bastards WILL own every single factory, enterprise, bank, shoping mall, AGAIN if the island's revolutionary goverment falls.
So I won't go on saying that Fidel is great because obviusly most of you have absolutley no respect of him. You think he's a greedy, evil, old demon. ok. I'm cool with that. BUT don't you know that when that man dies or when his goverment falls there will be hundreds and thousands of those greedy, evil old demons who will fight for every last bit of the island's economy and state property. AND the worst part follows. All those greedy capitalists that will come to Cuba WON'T even be Cuban.
So, this is for that "Cuban" guy; EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOUR PEOPLE HAVE FOUGHT FOR, LOST THEIR LIVES FOR, LIVED FOR AND BUILT in the last 50 years will be sold out to foreigners. You will be the world's elite paradise island. Your ex tourists will become your owners. AND then, only then, you will see what is it like when you don't have enough money to pay your kid a "better" school, a private school. You will see what is it like to be exploited 24/7 by some fat ugly capitalist that DOESN'T EVEN SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE. The Cuban people, the once great Cuban people will bend, bow, kneel and with their last bits of dignity they'll have left, they will brake. They will be just one more of ONCE great nations who fell to the capitalist wide open jaws. It happend to me, to everyone I know, to my country, Yugoslavia. Maybe you'll have yourselves a civil war like we did, so you will also see how is it like to kill your own brothers, fellow citizens, yesterdays good neighbours.
The sad thing is that, all this said, and still you will go on talkin how Fidel is bad and how cubans don't have acces to internet and can't have foreigners at their house.
Capitalism is hell. And Cuba is just few milles from it.

[Gojo]

FACTS: Cuba is a small island "few" milles from the BIGGEST and CRUELEST opressor the world is faced with in the last decades. People from this biggest and cruelest state have ownED land and all other kinds of property on that island. Those things have been taken away from them by the islands revolution. They want those things back. Fat, greedy, mercyless capitalist bastards WILL own every single factory, enterprise, bank, shoping mall, AGAIN if the island's revolutionary goverment falls.
So I won't go on saying that Fidel is great because obviusly most of you have absolutley no respect of him. You think he's a greedy, evil, old demon. ok. I'm cool with that. BUT don't you know that when that man dies or when his goverment falls there will be hundreds and thousands of those greedy, evil old demons who will fight for every last bit of the island's economy and state property. AND the worst part follows. All those greedy capitalists that will come to Cuba WON'T even be Cuban.
So, this is for that "Cuban" guy; EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOUR PEOPLE HAVE FOUGHT FOR, LOST THEIR LIVES FOR, LIVED FOR AND BUILT in the last 50 years will be sold out to foreigners. You will be the world's elite paradise island. Your ex tourists will become your owners. AND then, only then, you will see what is it like when you don't have enough money to pay your kid a "better" school, a private school. You will see what is it like to be exploited 24/7 by some fat ugly capitalist that DOESN'T EVEN SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE. The Cuban people, the once great Cuban people will bend, bow, kneel and with their last bits of dignity they'll have left, they will brake. They will be just one more of ONCE great nations who fell to the capitalist wide open jaws. It happend to me, to everyone I know, to my country, Yugoslavia. Maybe you'll have yourselves a civil war like we did, so you will also see how is it like to kill your own brothers, fellow citizens, yesterdays good neighbours.
The sad thing is that, all this said, and still you will go on talkin how Fidel is bad and how cubans don't have acces to internet and can't have foreigners at their house.
Capitalism is hell. And Cuba is just few milles from it.

[Gojo]

FACTS: Cuba is a small island "few" milles from the BIGGEST and CRUELEST opressor the world is faced with in the last decades. People from this biggest and cruelest state have ownED land and all other kinds of property on that island. Those things have been taken away from them by the islands revolution. They want those things back. Fat, greedy, mercyless capitalist bastards WILL own every single factory, enterprise, bank, shoping mall, AGAIN if the island's revolutionary goverment falls.
So I won't go on saying that Fidel is great because obviusly most of you have absolutley no respect of him. You think he's a greedy, evil, old demon. ok. I'm cool with that. BUT don't you know that when that man dies or when his goverment falls there will be hundreds and thousands of those greedy, evil old demons who will fight for every last bit of the island's economy and state property. AND the worst part follows. All those greedy capitalists that will come to Cuba WON'T even be Cuban.
So, this is for that "Cuban" guy; EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOUR PEOPLE HAVE FOUGHT FOR, LOST THEIR LIVES FOR, LIVED FOR AND BUILT in the last 50 years will be sold out to foreigners. You will be the world's elite paradise island. Your ex tourists will become your owners. AND then, only then, you will see what is it like when you don't have enough money to pay your kid a "better" school, a private school. You will see what is it like to be exploited 24/7 by some fat ugly capitalist that DOESN'T EVEN SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE. The Cuban people, the once great Cuban people will bend, bow, kneel and with their last bits of dignity they'll have left, they will brake. They will be just one more of ONCE great nations who fell to the capitalist wide open jaws. It happend to me, to everyone I know, to my country, Yugoslavia. Maybe you'll have yourselves a civil war like we did, so you will also see how is it like to kill your own brothers, fellow citizens, yesterdays good neighbours.
The sad thing is that, all this said, and still you will go on talkin how Fidel is bad and how cubans don't have acces to internet and can't have foreigners at their house.
Capitalism is hell. And Cuba is just few milles from it.

[SmokingMan]

Well, I'll go slowly, but I have to tell a lot of things... first, the most of cubans don't even know what is communism, to the Marx style, neither to Lenin style... the only thing they common citizen wants is to have a better economical life... but like Marti said "The only way to be free is to be cultivated" and those are the citizens that want some freedom, some democracy, not a life with more material things... a better life quality. Everybody here know why capitalism, is not right, is bad, but Cuba communism is worst than that, if i have to choose, I obviusly prefer that capitalism... cubans workers are really exploited, and they can't have their syndicate (you now why in capitalism the workers make their demostrations ?? because their are united by a syndicate)... cubans have only a syndicate that respond to the regimen interests (thats interests are not the people one, they main interest is to keep power, think any goverment try to do that)... and obviusly cubans workers are united, but not again the regimen that oppress us.
You know something, in my not specialist opinion, I think if embargo is lifted, Cuba gov., will come down faster... it's coming down, and is untenable, just like the Berlin wall was (is really there were too much countries implicated... but if that regimen were great... really you think they were kicked down the wall ???).
Right now, i can tell you what all the cubans wants... due to their obligated silence... but something i can tell, cubans when we have a chance, the most of us, go to live to any country, any one... Bolivia, Colombia, Inglaterra, Francia, Alemania , USA, Mexico, Venezuela, Dominic Republic... Bahamas, Africa, Australia, Canada... Spain, any capitalist country (almost anyone got to a communist one -- or I forgot, here don't really exist any, not to Marx style -- the real communism) I other thing, I don't know why, but anyone get back here to live again.
I don't know what to think about the ones that are here... but the others, obviusly prefer the capitalism... and if you want to know more... come cuba, and go around all the embassy of Havana, and you'll see all the cubans making the line to get a chance of getting of from Cuba.
If you are asking what i think... well i have to tell you, that I love Cuba, and my biggest desire is to fight for it... to stay here... but in ther other hand, I love spain, I love its culture, is people, we have a lot of them... i love his music... this is not about politics... and i'd love to live there too... why I can't do THAT ??? please ask to Castro.
Other thing, have you read "Cien Horas con Fidel" --(100 hours with Fidel)... is a book, an interview Fidel gave to a writer... well, when any cuban, read the questions, and Fidel answers ?? well we have to smile... beacuse he is lying, again, shamelessly...
GOJO, you as always, talking with knowledge, the tourist, are already our owners... they visit our hotel, we can't, they can swin naked in a beach at "Long Cay", cubans can't even get into that island... they are taking ours best woman... because they live in a free country, exactly what ours woman are looking for... they ride for Cuba in a nice car, when, we don't have almost a bus to get to work, and later get back home... they can live in cuba, a rent a house, Cubans can't do... the most of Cubans... like me, mut live with the complete family, almost forever, they could have computers, Internet, DirectTV... air-condition, we can't, they could eat a good cow steak, we can't... are you still thinking they will be ours owners ??? Where is our dignity ??
You live in Yugoslavia ?? or god... your country was in a war conflict a few years ago ?? is right ?? with US ?? How is your economical development ?? how is your freedom ?? how much old are you ?? do you live at the Soviets time ?? Do you want to go back tho those days ?? If you want, we could change, you come to Cuba, and I'll go to Yugoslavia... OK ??

[SmokingMan]

Well, I'll go slowly, but I have to tell a lot of things... first, the most of cubans don't even know what is communism, to the Marx style, neither to Lenin style... the only thing they common citizen wants is to have a better economical life... but like Marti said "The only way to be free is to be cultivated" and those are the citizens that want some freedom, some democracy, not a life with more material things... a better life quality. Everybody here know why capitalism, is not right, is bad, but Cuba communism is worst than that, if i have to choose, I obviusly prefer that capitalism... cubans workers are really exploited, and they can't have their syndicate (you now why in capitalism the workers make their demostrations ?? because their are united by a syndicate)... cubans have only a syndicate that respond to the regimen interests (thats interests are not the people one, they main interest is to keep power, think any goverment try to do that)... and obviusly cubans workers are united, but not again the regimen that oppress us.
You know something, in my not specialist opinion, I think if embargo is lifted, Cuba gov., will come down faster... it's coming down, and is untenable, just like the Berlin wall was (is really there were too much countries implicated... but if that regimen were great... really you think they were kicked down the wall ???).
Right now, i can tell you what all the cubans wants... due to their obligated silence... but something i can tell, cubans when we have a chance, the most of us, go to live to any country, any one... Bolivia, Colombia, Inglaterra, Francia, Alemania , USA, Mexico, Venezuela, Dominic Republic... Bahamas, Africa, Australia, Canada... Spain, any capitalist country (almost anyone got to a communist one -- or I forgot, here don't really exist any, not to Marx style -- the real communism) I other thing, I don't know why, but anyone get back here to live again.
I don't know what to think about the ones that are here... but the others, obviusly prefer the capitalism... and if you want to know more... come cuba, and go around all the embassy of Havana, and you'll see all the cubans making the line to get a chance of getting of from Cuba.
If you are asking what i think... well i have to tell you, that I love Cuba, and my biggest desire is to fight for it... to stay here... but in ther other hand, I love spain, I love its culture, is people, we have a lot of them... i love his music... this is not about politics... and i'd love to live there too... why I can't do THAT ??? please ask to Castro.
Other thing, have you read "Cien Horas con Fidel" --(100 hours with Fidel)... is a book, an interview Fidel gave to a writer... well, when any cuban, read the questions, and Fidel answers ?? well we have to smile... beacuse he is lying, again, shamelessly...
GOJO, you as always, talking with knowledge, the tourist, are already our owners... they visit our hotel, we can't, they can swin naked in a beach at "Long Cay", cubans can't even get into that island... they are taking ours best woman... because they live in a free country, exactly what ours woman are looking for... they ride for Cuba in a nice car, when, we don't have almost a bus to get to work, and later get back home... they can live in cuba, a rent a house, Cubans can't do... the most of Cubans... like me, mut live with the complete family, almost forever, they could have computers, Internet, DirectTV... air-condition, we can't, they could eat a good cow steak, we can't... are you still thinking they will be ours owners ??? Where is our dignity ??
You live in Yugoslavia ?? or god... your country was in a war conflict a few years ago ?? is right ?? with US ?? How is your economical development ?? how is your freedom ?? how much old are you ?? do you live at the Soviets time ?? Do you want to go back tho those days ?? If you want, we could change, you come to Cuba, and I'll go to Yugoslavia... OK ??

[SmokingMan]

Well, I'll go slowly, but I have to tell a lot of things... first, the most of cubans don't even know what is communism, to the Marx style, neither to Lenin style... the only thing they common citizen wants is to have a better economical life... but like Marti said "The only way to be free is to be cultivated" and those are the citizens that want some freedom, some democracy, not a life with more material things... a better life quality. Everybody here know why capitalism, is not right, is bad, but Cuba communism is worst than that, if i have to choose, I obviusly prefer that capitalism... cubans workers are really exploited, and they can't have their syndicate (you now why in capitalism the workers make their demostrations ?? because their are united by a syndicate)... cubans have only a syndicate that respond to the regimen interests (thats interests are not the people one, they main interest is to keep power, think any goverment try to do that)... and obviusly cubans workers are united, but not again the regimen that oppress us.
You know something, in my not specialist opinion, I think if embargo is lifted, Cuba gov., will come down faster... it's coming down, and is untenable, just like the Berlin wall was (is really there were too much countries implicated... but if that regimen were great... really you think they were kicked down the wall ???).
Right now, i can tell you what all the cubans wants... due to their obligated silence... but something i can tell, cubans when we have a chance, the most of us, go to live to any country, any one... Bolivia, Colombia, Inglaterra, Francia, Alemania , USA, Mexico, Venezuela, Dominic Republic... Bahamas, Africa, Australia, Canada... Spain, any capitalist country (almost anyone got to a communist one -- or I forgot, here don't really exist any, not to Marx style -- the real communism) I other thing, I don't know why, but anyone get back here to live again.
I don't know what to think about the ones that are here... but the others, obviusly prefer the capitalism... and if you want to know more... come cuba, and go around all the embassy of Havana, and you'll see all the cubans making the line to get a chance of getting of from Cuba.
If you are asking what i think... well i have to tell you, that I love Cuba, and my biggest desire is to fight for it... to stay here... but in ther other hand, I love spain, I love its culture, is people, we have a lot of them... i love his music... this is not about politics... and i'd love to live there too... why I can't do THAT ??? please ask to Castro.
Other thing, have you read "Cien Horas con Fidel" --(100 hours with Fidel)... is a book, an interview Fidel gave to a writer... well, when any cuban, read the questions, and Fidel answers ?? well we have to smile... beacuse he is lying, again, shamelessly...
GOJO, you as always, talking with knowledge, the tourist, are already our owners... they visit our hotel, we can't, they can swin naked in a beach at "Long Cay", cubans can't even get into that island... they are taking ours best woman... because they live in a free country, exactly what ours woman are looking for... they ride for Cuba in a nice car, when, we don't have almost a bus to get to work, and later get back home... they can live in cuba, a rent a house, Cubans can't do... the most of Cubans... like me, mut live with the complete family, almost forever, they could have computers, Internet, DirectTV... air-condition, we can't, they could eat a good cow steak, we can't... are you still thinking they will be ours owners ??? Where is our dignity ??
You live in Yugoslavia ?? or god... your country was in a war conflict a few years ago ?? is right ?? with US ?? How is your economical development ?? how is your freedom ?? how much old are you ?? do you live at the Soviets time ?? Do you want to go back tho those days ?? If you want, we could change, you come to Cuba, and I'll go to Yugoslavia... OK ??

[Herman]

Si de verdad crees que el capitalismo es un paraiso, quitate esas ideas de la cabeza. Quiza en Europa se vive mejor que en Africa o Cuba, pero es un continente que explota al tercer mundo para enriquecerse. Si de verdad crees que tu pais es pobre, mira detras tuyo, a los paises de Africa, a los paises de Asia y de Sur America. Los obreros quiza puedan protestar, pero es una falacia. Pueden intentar conseguir algo mas de tiempo o dinero, pero siguen sin tener poder politico, sin los medios de produccion.

Por que no haces una cosa? Y si ayudas organizar otra revolucion? Una revolucion Socialista? Una revolucion como la revolucion de la comuna de Paris? Ya que no puedes ir a ningun otro pais, mejora el tuyo quitando al partido comunista del poder y reemplazandolo con un gobierno de obreros.

[Herman]

Si de verdad crees que el capitalismo es un paraiso, quitate esas ideas de la cabeza. Quiza en Europa se vive mejor que en Africa o Cuba, pero es un continente que explota al tercer mundo para enriquecerse. Si de verdad crees que tu pais es pobre, mira detras tuyo, a los paises de Africa, a los paises de Asia y de Sur America. Los obreros quiza puedan protestar, pero es una falacia. Pueden intentar conseguir algo mas de tiempo o dinero, pero siguen sin tener poder politico, sin los medios de produccion.

Por que no haces una cosa? Y si ayudas organizar otra revolucion? Una revolucion Socialista? Una revolucion como la revolucion de la comuna de Paris? Ya que no puedes ir a ningun otro pais, mejora el tuyo quitando al partido comunista del poder y reemplazandolo con un gobierno de obreros.

[Herman]

Si de verdad crees que el capitalismo es un paraiso, quitate esas ideas de la cabeza. Quiza en Europa se vive mejor que en Africa o Cuba, pero es un continente que explota al tercer mundo para enriquecerse. Si de verdad crees que tu pais es pobre, mira detras tuyo, a los paises de Africa, a los paises de Asia y de Sur America. Los obreros quiza puedan protestar, pero es una falacia. Pueden intentar conseguir algo mas de tiempo o dinero, pero siguen sin tener poder politico, sin los medios de produccion.

Por que no haces una cosa? Y si ayudas organizar otra revolucion? Una revolucion Socialista? Una revolucion como la revolucion de la comuna de Paris? Ya que no puedes ir a ningun otro pais, mejora el tuyo quitando al partido comunista del poder y reemplazandolo con un gobierno de obreros.

[Connolly]

Hi Smokingman.

I completely agree with you, Castro's government is not representitive of the people and should be replaced by a more democratic one.

I dont think its necessary for you to "tell the world the real Cuba" - they already know. Western media constantly tells the world about the dictatorships in North Korea, Libya, Cuba and China. People in the western world are aware of what they might face under totalitarian systems. Sure, alot of what the western media say is propaganda and false images of totalitarianism - but to the most part - its right.

Mostly, for your purpose on this board, I hope you influence those who might have thought Cuba to be contrary to what you say.

I have some questions........

1.Are you aware that much of the problems in Cuban society are due to economic restrictions imposed by western capitalist powers, causing shortages in medical supplies, spare parts, oil etc - and that, this is not exactly Castro's mismanagement?

2.How do you feel about Castro gaining support from countries like Venezuala, Bolivia and Libya, who, supposedly, are now starting to send some resources to your country to "upstart" its economy?

3.Do you believe your leaders, at the beginning, meant well with the Cuban revolution, Castro, Raul and 'Che'? Do they still think they mean well, or have they just gone corrupt?

4.Tell us about the class system in Cuba. Are people relativly equal? or are there huge differences from one person to the next in terms of wealth?

5.Is there much Crime in Cuba? robbery? Prostitution? Black Market?

6.How is the health service? It supposedly has one of the highest doctor patient ratio in the world. Is it really Free?

7.What is the educational system like there in Cuba? also, supposedly free and one of the best in the world.



Quite a large proportion of people on Revleft are not Leninists, Maoists or Vanguardists - me included - so, as a template for socialism - we see the Cuban revolution leading to exactly the totalitarian system you describe. Dont brandish all Marxists, Leftists and communists with the same brush as Castro and his Cuban dictatorship.

We do not support his ridiculous minority dictatorship.


Thanks Smoking man, I hope you can answer all my questions.

The RedBanner

[Connolly]

Hi Smokingman.

I completely agree with you, Castro's government is not representitive of the people and should be replaced by a more democratic one.

I dont think its necessary for you to "tell the world the real Cuba" - they already know. Western media constantly tells the world about the dictatorships in North Korea, Libya, Cuba and China. People in the western world are aware of what they might face under totalitarian systems. Sure, alot of what the western media say is propaganda and false images of totalitarianism - but to the most part - its right.

Mostly, for your purpose on this board, I hope you influence those who might have thought Cuba to be contrary to what you say.

I have some questions........

1.Are you aware that much of the problems in Cuban society are due to economic restrictions imposed by western capitalist powers, causing shortages in medical supplies, spare parts, oil etc - and that, this is not exactly Castro's mismanagement?

2.How do you feel about Castro gaining support from countries like Venezuala, Bolivia and Libya, who, supposedly, are now starting to send some resources to your country to "upstart" its economy?

3.Do you believe your leaders, at the beginning, meant well with the Cuban revolution, Castro, Raul and 'Che'? Do they still think they mean well, or have they just gone corrupt?

4.Tell us about the class system in Cuba. Are people relativly equal? or are there huge differences from one person to the next in terms of wealth?

5.Is there much Crime in Cuba? robbery? Prostitution? Black Market?

6.How is the health service? It supposedly has one of the highest doctor patient ratio in the world. Is it really Free?

7.What is the educational system like there in Cuba? also, supposedly free and one of the best in the world.



Quite a large proportion of people on Revleft are not Leninists, Maoists or Vanguardists - me included - so, as a template for socialism - we see the Cuban revolution leading to exactly the totalitarian system you describe. Dont brandish all Marxists, Leftists and communists with the same brush as Castro and his Cuban dictatorship.

We do not support his ridiculous minority dictatorship.


Thanks Smoking man, I hope you can answer all my questions.

The RedBanner

[Connolly]

Hi Smokingman.

I completely agree with you, Castro's government is not representitive of the people and should be replaced by a more democratic one.

I dont think its necessary for you to "tell the world the real Cuba" - they already know. Western media constantly tells the world about the dictatorships in North Korea, Libya, Cuba and China. People in the western world are aware of what they might face under totalitarian systems. Sure, alot of what the western media say is propaganda and false images of totalitarianism - but to the most part - its right.

Mostly, for your purpose on this board, I hope you influence those who might have thought Cuba to be contrary to what you say.

I have some questions........

1.Are you aware that much of the problems in Cuban society are due to economic restrictions imposed by western capitalist powers, causing shortages in medical supplies, spare parts, oil etc - and that, this is not exactly Castro's mismanagement?

2.How do you feel about Castro gaining support from countries like Venezuala, Bolivia and Libya, who, supposedly, are now starting to send some resources to your country to "upstart" its economy?

3.Do you believe your leaders, at the beginning, meant well with the Cuban revolution, Castro, Raul and 'Che'? Do they still think they mean well, or have they just gone corrupt?

4.Tell us about the class system in Cuba. Are people relativly equal? or are there huge differences from one person to the next in terms of wealth?

5.Is there much Crime in Cuba? robbery? Prostitution? Black Market?

6.How is the health service? It supposedly has one of the highest doctor patient ratio in the world. Is it really Free?

7.What is the educational system like there in Cuba? also, supposedly free and one of the best in the world.



Quite a large proportion of people on Revleft are not Leninists, Maoists or Vanguardists - me included - so, as a template for socialism - we see the Cuban revolution leading to exactly the totalitarian system you describe. Dont brandish all Marxists, Leftists and communists with the same brush as Castro and his Cuban dictatorship.

We do not support his ridiculous minority dictatorship.


Thanks Smoking man, I hope you can answer all my questions.

The RedBanner

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is a small island

Cuba consist of hundreds of islands.

The island of Cuba is the largest in the Carribean. So compared to its neighbours, its not really small.


The sad thing is that, all this said, and still you will go on talkin how Fidel is bad and how cubans don't have acces to internet and can't have foreigners at their house.

If you lived in Cuba you would probably not have access to the internet. And you would be punished if you invited any foreigner to your house.

Wouldn't you be frustrated? Angry?



Other thing, have you read "Cien Horas con Fidel" --(100 hours with Fidel)... is a book, an interview Fidel gave to a writer... well, when any cuban, read the questions, and Fidel answers ?? well we have to smile... beacuse he is lying, again, shamelessly...

Could you tell us about what he is lying about?


Capitalism is hell.

True. But if I couldn't demonstrate. If I couldn't invite my foreign friends to my home. If I had to use books as toilet paper. If the only information I had, came from a puppet media, then I would call that a hell too. Wouldn't you?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is a small island

Cuba consist of hundreds of islands.

The island of Cuba is the largest in the Carribean. So compared to its neighbours, its not really small.


The sad thing is that, all this said, and still you will go on talkin how Fidel is bad and how cubans don't have acces to internet and can't have foreigners at their house.

If you lived in Cuba you would probably not have access to the internet. And you would be punished if you invited any foreigner to your house.

Wouldn't you be frustrated? Angry?



Other thing, have you read "Cien Horas con Fidel" --(100 hours with Fidel)... is a book, an interview Fidel gave to a writer... well, when any cuban, read the questions, and Fidel answers ?? well we have to smile... beacuse he is lying, again, shamelessly...

Could you tell us about what he is lying about?


Capitalism is hell.

True. But if I couldn't demonstrate. If I couldn't invite my foreign friends to my home. If I had to use books as toilet paper. If the only information I had, came from a puppet media, then I would call that a hell too. Wouldn't you?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is a small island

Cuba consist of hundreds of islands.

The island of Cuba is the largest in the Carribean. So compared to its neighbours, its not really small.


The sad thing is that, all this said, and still you will go on talkin how Fidel is bad and how cubans don't have acces to internet and can't have foreigners at their house.

If you lived in Cuba you would probably not have access to the internet. And you would be punished if you invited any foreigner to your house.

Wouldn't you be frustrated? Angry?



Other thing, have you read "Cien Horas con Fidel" --(100 hours with Fidel)... is a book, an interview Fidel gave to a writer... well, when any cuban, read the questions, and Fidel answers ?? well we have to smile... beacuse he is lying, again, shamelessly...

Could you tell us about what he is lying about?


Capitalism is hell.

True. But if I couldn't demonstrate. If I couldn't invite my foreign friends to my home. If I had to use books as toilet paper. If the only information I had, came from a puppet media, then I would call that a hell too. Wouldn't you?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Si de verdad crees que el capitalismo es un paraiso, quitate esas ideas de la cabeza.

In all fairness, I agree with you.

But maybe we should realize, that SmokingMan has experienced both the state capitalism of Cuba/fidelism/whatever you want to call it, and pure capitalism. So maybe we should let him think for himself?



I dont think its necessary for you to "tell the world the real Cuba" - they already know. Western media constantly tells the world about the dictatorships in North Korea, Libya, Cuba and China.

I know you are talking to SM here, but if you would allow me, I would disagree.

What we hear in Western media is often lies. They spread lies. They say if you are homosexual, you will be shot. But we know that there are homosexuals in the govt, and (correct me if I am wrong) we know the police usually don't arrest you for simply being a homosexual (although I've heard they tend to be harsher against trannies).

They say there aren't elections in Cuba. There are elections in Cuba. If they are a scam, fine. Then they are. But there still are elections.


Cuba has a lot of dirt. But why don't they tell us about that dirt? Why do they have to resort to lies, when they could tell the dirty truth?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Si de verdad crees que el capitalismo es un paraiso, quitate esas ideas de la cabeza.

In all fairness, I agree with you.

But maybe we should realize, that SmokingMan has experienced both the state capitalism of Cuba/fidelism/whatever you want to call it, and pure capitalism. So maybe we should let him think for himself?



I dont think its necessary for you to "tell the world the real Cuba" - they already know. Western media constantly tells the world about the dictatorships in North Korea, Libya, Cuba and China.

I know you are talking to SM here, but if you would allow me, I would disagree.

What we hear in Western media is often lies. They spread lies. They say if you are homosexual, you will be shot. But we know that there are homosexuals in the govt, and (correct me if I am wrong) we know the police usually don't arrest you for simply being a homosexual (although I've heard they tend to be harsher against trannies).

They say there aren't elections in Cuba. There are elections in Cuba. If they are a scam, fine. Then they are. But there still are elections.


Cuba has a lot of dirt. But why don't they tell us about that dirt? Why do they have to resort to lies, when they could tell the dirty truth?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Si de verdad crees que el capitalismo es un paraiso, quitate esas ideas de la cabeza.

In all fairness, I agree with you.

But maybe we should realize, that SmokingMan has experienced both the state capitalism of Cuba/fidelism/whatever you want to call it, and pure capitalism. So maybe we should let him think for himself?



I dont think its necessary for you to "tell the world the real Cuba" - they already know. Western media constantly tells the world about the dictatorships in North Korea, Libya, Cuba and China.

I know you are talking to SM here, but if you would allow me, I would disagree.

What we hear in Western media is often lies. They spread lies. They say if you are homosexual, you will be shot. But we know that there are homosexuals in the govt, and (correct me if I am wrong) we know the police usually don't arrest you for simply being a homosexual (although I've heard they tend to be harsher against trannies).

They say there aren't elections in Cuba. There are elections in Cuba. If they are a scam, fine. Then they are. But there still are elections.


Cuba has a lot of dirt. But why don't they tell us about that dirt? Why do they have to resort to lies, when they could tell the dirty truth?

[Mariam]

Though also maybe if a continent of such as South America was all united by a Communist Revolution, there should be enough wealth with in it to build socialism, and would have an influence in the USA, the USA could practically fall to it.

Ok..well explained.

Somkingman...
If you could give us some kind of a rate of the opposition in Cuba, because I was wondering about some of the pictures the media publish..Castro in the middle surronded by Cubans especially in labour day or something...If we assume that this is a lie and all those that seem to be happy Cubans around their leader are against him..How on earth would they gather them for the sake of taking a single picture that could show their support?? I mean do the police force them to participate in such things??

[Mariam]

Though also maybe if a continent of such as South America was all united by a Communist Revolution, there should be enough wealth with in it to build socialism, and would have an influence in the USA, the USA could practically fall to it.

Ok..well explained.

Somkingman...
If you could give us some kind of a rate of the opposition in Cuba, because I was wondering about some of the pictures the media publish..Castro in the middle surronded by Cubans especially in labour day or something...If we assume that this is a lie and all those that seem to be happy Cubans around their leader are against him..How on earth would they gather them for the sake of taking a single picture that could show their support?? I mean do the police force them to participate in such things??

[Mariam]

Though also maybe if a continent of such as South America was all united by a Communist Revolution, there should be enough wealth with in it to build socialism, and would have an influence in the USA, the USA could practically fall to it.

Ok..well explained.

Somkingman...
If you could give us some kind of a rate of the opposition in Cuba, because I was wondering about some of the pictures the media publish..Castro in the middle surronded by Cubans especially in labour day or something...If we assume that this is a lie and all those that seem to be happy Cubans around their leader are against him..How on earth would they gather them for the sake of taking a single picture that could show their support?? I mean do the police force them to participate in such things??

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smokingman do you realize the relation the first world has to the third?

Another thing, in the USA if you're from Cuba the Yankees will be sympathetic to you, but say you're from Puerto rico, The Dominican Republic, Mexico or Guatemala they won't care to hear about your horrendous living conditions. Good examples; the Merial Boat Lift of 1980, Yankees welcomed Cubans over here, but the response to the march on May 1st for immigrant rights (most of the immigrants were Mexican) the general attitude of the Yankee's were "Who cares", or "Get out of the streets", and we're reluctant on finding a real policy to benefit the immigrants that works.

How about the Elian Gonzales issue, there was ALOT of coverage on that. Sure he got a gun shoved into his face, but all other Latinos who are over here illegaly get that all the time, and they get no coverage. The media was worried about sending him home to Cuba, they though Fidel was going eat him. But with Mexicans, no coverage, and the general opinion towards them is "Send them home, they are taking our jobs".

It's ironic Cuba has the best healthcare and education in Latino America, yet you have greater space to complain in the USA about your country than any other Latinos.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smokingman do you realize the relation the first world has to the third?

Another thing, in the USA if you're from Cuba the Yankees will be sympathetic to you, but say you're from Puerto rico, The Dominican Republic, Mexico or Guatemala they won't care to hear about your horrendous living conditions. Good examples; the Merial Boat Lift of 1980, Yankees welcomed Cubans over here, but the response to the march on May 1st for immigrant rights (most of the immigrants were Mexican) the general attitude of the Yankee's were "Who cares", or "Get out of the streets", and we're reluctant on finding a real policy to benefit the immigrants that works.

How about the Elian Gonzales issue, there was ALOT of coverage on that. Sure he got a gun shoved into his face, but all other Latinos who are over here illegaly get that all the time, and they get no coverage. The media was worried about sending him home to Cuba, they though Fidel was going eat him. But with Mexicans, no coverage, and the general opinion towards them is "Send them home, they are taking our jobs".

It's ironic Cuba has the best healthcare and education in Latino America, yet you have greater space to complain in the USA about your country than any other Latinos.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smokingman do you realize the relation the first world has to the third?

Another thing, in the USA if you're from Cuba the Yankees will be sympathetic to you, but say you're from Puerto rico, The Dominican Republic, Mexico or Guatemala they won't care to hear about your horrendous living conditions. Good examples; the Merial Boat Lift of 1980, Yankees welcomed Cubans over here, but the response to the march on May 1st for immigrant rights (most of the immigrants were Mexican) the general attitude of the Yankee's were "Who cares", or "Get out of the streets", and we're reluctant on finding a real policy to benefit the immigrants that works.

How about the Elian Gonzales issue, there was ALOT of coverage on that. Sure he got a gun shoved into his face, but all other Latinos who are over here illegaly get that all the time, and they get no coverage. The media was worried about sending him home to Cuba, they though Fidel was going eat him. But with Mexicans, no coverage, and the general opinion towards them is "Send them home, they are taking our jobs".

It's ironic Cuba has the best healthcare and education in Latino America, yet you have greater space to complain in the USA about your country than any other Latinos.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 03:00 AM
So youre in love with Mao huh? What a cult that is. Sad that "communists" put their whole support behind a single man, kind of like how religious people pray andd love their so-called "God".
He said nothing "cult-like" or dogmatic at all about Mao. Get a life.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 03:00 AM
So youre in love with Mao huh? What a cult that is. Sad that "communists" put their whole support behind a single man, kind of like how religious people pray andd love their so-called "God".
He said nothing "cult-like" or dogmatic at all about Mao. Get a life.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 03:00 AM
So youre in love with Mao huh? What a cult that is. Sad that "communists" put their whole support behind a single man, kind of like how religious people pray andd love their so-called "God".
He said nothing "cult-like" or dogmatic at all about Mao. Get a life.

[Red Rebel]

I completely agree with you, Castro's government is not representitive of the people and should be replaced by a more democratic one.

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy (http://www.walterlippmann.com/docs099.html)


If you lived in Cuba you would probably not have access to the internet.

There are plenty of countries in capitalism where people can't afford the internet.


And you would be punished if you invited any foreigner to your house.

Source?

[Red Rebel]

I completely agree with you, Castro's government is not representitive of the people and should be replaced by a more democratic one.

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy (http://www.walterlippmann.com/docs099.html)


If you lived in Cuba you would probably not have access to the internet.

There are plenty of countries in capitalism where people can't afford the internet.


And you would be punished if you invited any foreigner to your house.

Source?

[Red Rebel]

I completely agree with you, Castro's government is not representitive of the people and should be replaced by a more democratic one.

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy (http://www.walterlippmann.com/docs099.html)


If you lived in Cuba you would probably not have access to the internet.

There are plenty of countries in capitalism where people can't afford the internet.


And you would be punished if you invited any foreigner to your house.

Source?

[black magick hustla]

www.walterlippmann.com/docs099.html]Let’s talk about Cuban democracy

yeah i have read those fairy tales.

apparently, the cubans i have met cannot say the same. :(

also Smokingman, I think you are kinda naive in the sense that you think countries like fucking "Bolivia" are much better. Probably, because Cubans have very good education, they would get a better job in any capitalist country than in Cuba (though, Cuba is state-capitalist). However, if you were a normal worker, you would realize how shit most of the capitalist countries are [except the first world].

so yeah

[black magick hustla]

www.walterlippmann.com/docs099.html]Let’s talk about Cuban democracy

yeah i have read those fairy tales.

apparently, the cubans i have met cannot say the same. :(

also Smokingman, I think you are kinda naive in the sense that you think countries like fucking "Bolivia" are much better. Probably, because Cubans have very good education, they would get a better job in any capitalist country than in Cuba (though, Cuba is state-capitalist). However, if you were a normal worker, you would realize how shit most of the capitalist countries are [except the first world].

so yeah

[black magick hustla]

www.walterlippmann.com/docs099.html]Let’s talk about Cuban democracy

yeah i have read those fairy tales.

apparently, the cubans i have met cannot say the same. :(

also Smokingman, I think you are kinda naive in the sense that you think countries like fucking "Bolivia" are much better. Probably, because Cubans have very good education, they would get a better job in any capitalist country than in Cuba (though, Cuba is state-capitalist). However, if you were a normal worker, you would realize how shit most of the capitalist countries are [except the first world].

so yeah

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy

Just like Marmot, the Cubans I have met cannot say the same. They will laugh if you claim Cuba is a democracy, or just protest heavily and try to explain it to you.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy

Just like Marmot, the Cubans I have met cannot say the same. They will laugh if you claim Cuba is a democracy, or just protest heavily and try to explain it to you.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy

Just like Marmot, the Cubans I have met cannot say the same. They will laugh if you claim Cuba is a democracy, or just protest heavily and try to explain it to you.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 08:37 PM

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy


obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).
Smoking man is talkin shit and you're all buying it. that's sad. the fact that someone can hook up on the internet and say he's from Cuba and imediatley everybody belives it. That's sad, really.

There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

I'll say no more on this subject, I suggest RED REBEL and all other people who come here in order to promote and discuss the greatest achivement of man; communism, to do the same.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 08:37 PM

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy


obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).
Smoking man is talkin shit and you're all buying it. that's sad. the fact that someone can hook up on the internet and say he's from Cuba and imediatley everybody belives it. That's sad, really.

There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

I'll say no more on this subject, I suggest RED REBEL and all other people who come here in order to promote and discuss the greatest achivement of man; communism, to do the same.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 08:37 PM

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy


obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).
Smoking man is talkin shit and you're all buying it. that's sad. the fact that someone can hook up on the internet and say he's from Cuba and imediatley everybody belives it. That's sad, really.

There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

I'll say no more on this subject, I suggest RED REBEL and all other people who come here in order to promote and discuss the greatest achivement of man; communism, to do the same.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Gojo+Jun 23 2006, 09:18 PM--> (Gojo @ Jun 23 2006, 09:18 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 08:37 PM

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy


obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).
Smoking man is talkin shit and you're all buying it. that's sad. the fact that someone can hook up on the internet and say he's from Cuba and imediatley everybody belives it. That's sad, really.

There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

I'll say no more on this subject, I suggest RED REBEL and all other people who come here in order to promote and discuss the greatest achivement of man; communism, to do the same. [/b]


the cubans that live here in torreón are not gusano scum.

i have spoken to numerous cubans that are living in my city(i live in mexico). most of them are just pretty badly paid coaches or musicians. i dont think they were part of the CUBAN BOURGEOSIE.

so yeah

and besides, Malte already tracked his IP address, and indeed he is speaking from Cuba.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Gojo+Jun 23 2006, 09:18 PM--> (Gojo @ Jun 23 2006, 09:18 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 08:37 PM

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy


obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).
Smoking man is talkin shit and you're all buying it. that's sad. the fact that someone can hook up on the internet and say he's from Cuba and imediatley everybody belives it. That's sad, really.

There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

I'll say no more on this subject, I suggest RED REBEL and all other people who come here in order to promote and discuss the greatest achivement of man; communism, to do the same. [/b]


the cubans that live here in torreón are not gusano scum.

i have spoken to numerous cubans that are living in my city(i live in mexico). most of them are just pretty badly paid coaches or musicians. i dont think they were part of the CUBAN BOURGEOSIE.

so yeah

and besides, Malte already tracked his IP address, and indeed he is speaking from Cuba.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Gojo+Jun 23 2006, 09:18 PM--> (Gojo @ Jun 23 2006, 09:18 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 08:37 PM

Cuba is a democracy. Let’s talk about Cuban democracy


obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).
Smoking man is talkin shit and you're all buying it. that's sad. the fact that someone can hook up on the internet and say he's from Cuba and imediatley everybody belives it. That's sad, really.

There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

I'll say no more on this subject, I suggest RED REBEL and all other people who come here in order to promote and discuss the greatest achivement of man; communism, to do the same. [/b]


the cubans that live here in torreón are not gusano scum.

i have spoken to numerous cubans that are living in my city(i live in mexico). most of them are just pretty badly paid coaches or musicians. i dont think they were part of the CUBAN BOURGEOSIE.

so yeah

and besides, Malte already tracked his IP address, and indeed he is speaking from Cuba.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).

I must laugh! :lol: No my friend, the Cubans I know are not from Miami. Why would you always assume such a thing?

Your crystal ball proved wrong again.


There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

Go to Cuba, live there for a year or two, and get to know them and ask if they think Cuba is democratic. Or you will probably find out yourself if you actually live there.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).

I must laugh! :lol: No my friend, the Cubans I know are not from Miami. Why would you always assume such a thing?

Your crystal ball proved wrong again.


There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

Go to Cuba, live there for a year or two, and get to know them and ask if they think Cuba is democratic. Or you will probably find out yourself if you actually live there.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

obviusly you meet with the wrong cubans(those in the miami).

I must laugh! :lol: No my friend, the Cubans I know are not from Miami. Why would you always assume such a thing?

Your crystal ball proved wrong again.


There is only one version of truth and that is; Cuba is one of the few places in the world where the majority of people are in power and where TRUE democracy has taken roots.

Go to Cuba, live there for a year or two, and get to know them and ask if they think Cuba is democratic. Or you will probably find out yourself if you actually live there.

[Entrails Konfetti]

So regular people aren't picked out by their neighbours to form policy, and these people that are picked out aren't revocable?

[Entrails Konfetti]

So regular people aren't picked out by their neighbours to form policy, and these people that are picked out aren't revocable?

[Entrails Konfetti]

So regular people aren't picked out by their neighbours to form policy, and these people that are picked out aren't revocable?

[!Injustice!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:31 AM
C) B is true, allow me to let you know that the United States is virtually no different from Cuba, in that only corporations can technically run media, and are heavily influenced and/or tied to the government, distracting masses of people. As well, our phone lines are tapped, our civil liberties curbed, our medical research restricted, and our country is rather close to totalitarian theocratic fascism thanks to the pervasive plague of Conservative Christianity.


what is said here is completly true the people in this country "land of the free" are being fed this ingnorance by the government ran media...also Cuba is the best island to live in all over in the carribien...i am from dominican republic my country suffers from the imperialistic grip of the american toletarian companies...but now i live in america where i believe the people are ran by drones the 4th branch(media)
so our rights our so called freedoms are being washed away... hopefully the youth, my generation can see this and not be afraid of this imperialistic, selfish, money hungry government

[SmokingMan]

I sorry to come later... Well


Por que no haces una cosa? Y si ayudas organizar otra revolucion? Una revolucion Socialista? Una revolucion como la revolucion de la comuna de Paris? Ya que no puedes ir a ningun otro pais, mejora el tuyo quitando al partido comunista del poder y reemplazandolo con un gobierno de obreros.
Ojala, pudiera, Fidel Catro no da tregua, no permite organizarse, no permite nada... solamente el puede tener la razon....

GOJO... I have something to tell you... you are a fucking Catro's Fan, teh only thing you deserve is to live in Cuba...
We are agree Cuba has a good Education System... well, not all is bad, and can't be, In none country. But don't thinks that cubans, like me, dont have to suffer to study, make and effort... for example, I'm a university graduated... but a had to suffer to obtain that... go to school, without any money, hungry... with old closet, and old shoes... i don't say in other countris that doesn't happen... but I saying that my knowledge, is not a gift... I had to fight and I still fighting. and or course is not for free, if you have been graduated like a university student then you have to pay working 2 year, men, 3 woman... where Fidel want's... and have to tell you... that's no free...
I never said capitalism is glory I just said that's is even better than the Fidel' Regimen. (please read well, don't repeat the same shit)...
NO one here can say cuba is what they think... please join to NWOG and come here, I'll guide you, like Fidel do when a visit come... he present everybody the good side of his goverment, but ... I'll show you ther other side of the coin.

Thanx, SmokingMan

[SmokingMan]

For the RedBanner


1.Are you aware that much of the problems in Cuban society are due to economic restrictions imposed by western capitalist powers, causing shortages in medical supplies, spare parts, oil etc - and that, this is not exactly Castro's mismanagement?

of course isn't Cuba can buy medicin to Mexico, in pretty good prices... Cuba, also export medicin, oil, Chavez gave us all we need... but the most cuba's problem is not economy, is about democracy. And Castro has a lot of fault...


2.How do you feel about Castro gaining support from countries like Venezuala, Bolivia and Libya, who, supposedly, are now starting to send some resources to your country to "upstart" its economy?

The only think i could think, is that cubans, still without freedom. Doesn't matter how much our economy grow up.


3.Do you believe your leaders, at the beginning, meant well with the Cuban revolution, Castro, Raul and 'Che'? Do they still think they mean well, or have they just gone corrupt?

Che, he can't mean anything... Castro, and Castro (the two brothers)... a few years ago, I thinked Fidel was a good man... and that he was doing all that beacuse he thinked was the right think... but know i know he is a shameless... (read others texts )


4.Tell us about the class system in Cuba. Are people relativly equal? or are there huge differences from one person to the next in terms of wealth?

yes, here we have huge differences... of course, the majority are poor, come here and see yourself


5.Is there much Crime in Cuba? robbery? Prostitution? Black Market?

A Lot, much than a lot


6.How is the health service? It supposedly has one of the highest doctor patient ratio in the world. Is it really Free?

Is free... but think somthing, is really free ?? us, and ours fathers pay all that wiht their work, for years... beacuse we have poor salaries. And primary attention is really bad.

7.What is the educational system like there in Cuba? also, supposedly free and one of the best in the world.

Read my before message

Thanx SmokingMan

[Mariam]

I sorry to come later... Well

I was really waiting for your posts.

Somkingman..could you please answer my questions..

How come there are many people...I suppose civillians which seems to be happy around Castro when he goes in public?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smokingman how exactly is the government ran there in Cuba, and what role do the people play in it? Do they really not get to elect representatives out of their own neighbourhoods? Can the people get rid of these elected representatives whenever they want? How does the Communist Party relate to the elected representatives?

If you don't think you can reply to this very well in English, please write it in espanol. I can run what you write through a espanol to english translator on-line.

[Gojo]

will somebody close this thread, who needs this childish, banal and boring crap? (besides the few kids who keep asking Smoking man questions?)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Gojo, that's just stupid. You glorify the regime in Cuba yet you want to censure cubans from telling how things are in Cuba.

[Gojo]

Cubans? That man is either not FROM Cuba or he isn't Cuban at all. Though it's always a possibility that he is and that still doesn't mean a thing becasue we all know that in a hundred of sheep there must be at least one that's black.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cubans? That man is either not FROM Cuba or he isn't Cuban at all.

What do you mean?


Though it's always a possibility that he is

His IP is located in Cuba, apparently.


doesn't mean a thing becasue we all know that in a hundred of sheep there must be at least one that's black.

Again, what is that supposed to mean?

A lot of Cubans I know are critical of the situation in Cuba.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:53 PM

Cubans? That man is either not FROM Cuba or he isn't Cuban at all.

What do you mean?


doesn't mean a thing becasue we all know that in a hundred of sheep there must be at least one that's black.

Again, what is that supposed to mean?

A lot of Cubans I know are critical of the situation in Cuba.
You seem to have meet the "wrong" Cubans.

What do you mean what do I mean? Isn't it obvious?!
Among, let's say 100 Cubans 10 of them will surely not be content with their goverment. That's simple logic. And your smoking man and those Cubans that you say you know are among those 10 black sheeps.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

You seem to have meet the "wrong" Cubans.
They are perfectly decent, nice people.


What do you mean what do I mean? Isn't it obvious?!

I find it hard to understand. Could you try to explain again?




And your smoking man and those Cubans that you say you know are among those 10 black sheeps.
Why do you say black sheeps? Do you consider them "bad guys"?

You think everyone likes a government which dress police officers as civilians and beat up people? You think everyone likes a government which won't allow people to speak freely? You think everyone likes a government that creates a lot of stupid social and economic situations? You think everyone likes a government which sets so many inconsiderate restrictions? Who cannot even establish rule of law?

Yes, there are some of them. Maybe the majority: A lot of people favor the government today because they are afraid of the alternatives. But there are very few who really like the regime. Most people support the govt out of neccesity.

When your son is jail for being an anarchist, when your brother is in arrest for being a rastafari, when your father was beaten up by undercover cops, when your best friend was ruined economically because he had to pay a gigantic fine due to his invitation of some foreigners. This would be an extreme case. But stuff like that makes people sad, upset and angry.

There is a reason why movies critical of cuban society are the most popular (primarily Tomás Gutiérrez's movies).

[Connolly]

Thanks very much for that smoking man.

I may be visiting Cuba later this year - cant wait.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

I think it's important, as Castro once said in an interview to analyze and criticize the state. Cuba is not perfect and neither is America. The point is to understand what can be done to improve the situation.

I don't think those who criticize Cuba should be outcasted, because that is resorting to some sort of childish behaviour. There are good and bad points to almost every equation - the point is to consistently learn from it. I'm not saying become pro or anti-Castro - that's your own prerogative. At least, weigh out the facts.

And in my opinion, I think Cuba is much more better under Castro then its American counterparts. Healthcare is frickin amazing and anyone can go from kindergarten to a phd without spending a penny. Of course there are problems in Cuba - very staggering problems, especially concerning poverty which is heavily due to the trade embargo initiated by the US. Let us remember however, Cuba did experience capitalism - and the people were far from liberated.

Just my thoughts...

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Healthcare is frickin amazing

What do you base this on?

Of course it is better than say, Haiti or Jamaica. Or even main stream south american countries.

But the families of those who lie in hospital beds have to bring their own lightbulbs, food, sheets etc. My humble opinion is that that is not very good.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Sorry for not clarifying, I meant healthcare is much better under Castro than it was under Batista. And the numbers don't lie on that end. In fact, before Castro, there was a joke in Cuba saying that cows received more medical attention than people did.

And that Castro provides better healthcare than most countries which are capitalist says a lot. I think we should also give credit where it is due. America didn't do that for Cuba. Not by a longshot.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Smokingman, don't worry about answering my questions, I've figured out the answers in other posts of yours.

However, when Castro dies don't go looking to the USA for them to set up a so-called democracy.

With all the reading I've done on Cuba and Castro, I think economic circumstances has made it what it is. But in my opinion I think they honestly tried with the Cuban Revolution, they even tried to spread revolution against the will of the USSR so that Cuba could have a great economy in order to have a real democracy.

I think the Cuban Revolution got fucked over by the USA and the USSR, and because of that you got fucked over too.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 09:06 PM
But the families of those who lie in hospital beds have to bring their own lightbulbs, food, sheets etc. My humble opinion is that that is not very good.
And why is that? Maybe it's because of the embargo?

If I were to send Cuban hospitals food, sheets and lightbulbs I'd be arrested due to treason.

[chebol]

Gojo, while i sympathise with your frustration, shutting the thread is not the most useful way of fixing the problem. This guy needs to be taken up with facts, and arguments. (Not least in that the nasty nasty Castro regimen hasn't cottoned onto him yet, and beaten him, or stopped him from selling illegal cigars, or cashing the remittance from his relatives in Miami, or whatever it is that he does in his spare time).

I've got two more exams to do, but after that, I want to clear up a few misconceptions - especially the ones that SmokingMan and NWOG are spreading, but I can't do it until then. And explain a few of the valid points SM's making too - but put them in context.

Until then...

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 11:48 AM
Cubans? That man is either not FROM Cuba or he isn't Cuban at all. Though it's always a possibility that he is and that still doesn't mean a thing becasue we all know that in a hundred of sheep there must be at least one that's black.
god

as i said before, malte already tracked down his IP, and he is actually posting from a university in havana.

stop being a sore loser.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

where's ComradeDEliberated? He used to provide very pro-Castro messages on this topic. I wonder what his response would be to Cubans criticizing their own government...

[SmokingMan]

Chebol, do you live in Cuba ?? I don't think so

please, I don't want to talk anymore about this... I'm sure about what i said to you... anyone here can say i'm lying, because anyone here, live in Cuba... and Castro of course, do whatever it have to do, in order to keep power... yes, he want to spread communist to other countries... but I have to ask you something ... do you consider the communism must be imposed ?? of course not... we must be, all, free to choose what ever we want... and that here in Cuba, is simply imposible... you don't have the right to think different... and don't tell me anymore that they can allow to a capitalist to get elect as candidate... why not ?? we all must has the right, that's why the Soviet revolution got down, and tha't why Cuba Revolution, will go down... and please don't write anymore without thinking it for a minute...

SmokingMan
"Toda persona tiene derecho a la libertad de pensamiento, de conciencia y de religión; este derecho incluye la libertad de cambiar de religión o de creencia, así como la libertad de manifestar su religión o su creencia, individual y colectivamente, tanto en público como en privado, por la enseñanza, la práctica, el culto y la observancia."

[chebol]

SmokingMan, how do you know I haven't lived in Cuba, and or been there on more than a tourist basis. You don't!

Many of the points you raise reflecta certain reality in Cuba. And many don't. And many that do are clearly misunderstood by you. You don't want to talk about this more? Fine. I will. In a couple of days once I find a house (I'm currently homeless), finish exams, and have finished helping to organising a response to the worst attacks on workers' rights this country has ever seen.

Then I'm going to address the points you've raised FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE OF CUBA! And from my assessment of WHY it's so.

So what do you do? Student? Worker? What? Where? How old are you? Do you remember what cuba was like before 1990?

You don't have the right to think diferently? You're on line, DESPITE a supposedly evil Castro-dominated state trying to supress you, badmouthing it in an ignorant manner. I respect the fact that things are certainly not perfect in Cuba - and the influence of the USSR on the bureaucracy certainly made things worse. The collapse of the USSR, and the end to the subsidy also made it worse for Cuba. But your posts don't reflect an understanding of how cuba got to where it is. Instead, they come across like a naive youth, worse, they remind me of the jinteros, and the malcontents who hang around La Universidad.

Sure there's crime in Cuba - the worst of it is in Havana on the Malecon and at the University, amongst disaffected youth who hang around the Uni late at night. There are muggings, stabbings, theft. Sure. And it's still safer than Sydney, and most other cities.

What's lacking in your "stories from cuba" is any understanding of WHY things are how they are. Most cubans I talked to in all the time that I spent there had a clearer idea of who was to to blame that SmokingMan does. Fuck, even the jinteros did. They just didn't like Fidel coz the police crack down on them.

Like I said, give me a few days, and when I have time I'll respond in full. Until then, how about laying off the bullshit about "no access to internet", and "no free thought"? If Fidel could read you mind, you, like I said, wouldn't be spinning gusano shit on this board.

hasta pronto

[chebol]

And for what it's worth comrades, many Cubans criticise the government in Cuba, openly, out loud, in the streets. Some criticise Fidel, some criticise the bureaucrats, some criticise the absence of more representative and participatory democracy. No problem. Waving copies of Orwell, Trotsky, whatever about to make a point.

There are some problems with police, true. But I heard more political debate on the streets of havana and santiago than i hear in the streets of australia.

[chebol]

Sounds really restricted and oppressive


Prensa Latina, Havana
http://www.plenglish.com

The Facts about Cuba´s Internet Access

Havana, Jun 6 (Prensa Latina) Digital disparity between the First and
Third Worlds is made worse by the US economic blockade on Cuba to
prevent the island from having free access to the Internet.

A commentary posted today by the Cuban News Agency (AIN) says that in
addition to financial restraints increasingly being placed on Cuba by
Washington, the island is not allowed to connect to underwater optic
fibre cables through which the overwhelming bulk of worldwide
information flows.

Internet reception and transmission on the island is therefore reduced
to satellite communication. This substantially limits the countrys
connectivity capacity, causes the transmission of information to slow
down and makes the process much more expensive.

For these reasons, the country set out to a development strategy to
forge ahead in the informatization of society. This is seen as the
only way to have technology reach the broadest sectors of the nation
and a larger number of people worldwide.

The informatization of society is defined in Havana as the process of
orderly and massive use of information and communication technology to
satisfy the information and knowledge needs of all people and spheres
of society.

The issue has been touched upon on various occasions in speeches by
Cuban President Fidel Castro, who recently expressed the official
objective: Millions of Cubans could communicate with millions of
people in the world through the Internet.

The first step in that direction took place in 1996 when the Ministry
of Communicationswhich until then had been devoted to traditional
postal work, telephone links and radio and television transmissions
was transformed into the Informatics and Communications Ministry.

A decade later, the island is showing notable advances in this
important sector, as demonstrated by the growing number of citizens
and institutions with Internet access and by in massive training of
highly specialized engineers and technicians.

The scope of this effort would seem inconceivable in not only Third
World nations, but in many First World countries.

So as not to offer an image that might seem overly optimistic, AIN
refers to concrete aspects which are easily verifiable by any
interested visitor to the country.

In Cuba, computer courses are included in the national education
programs starting at the first grade level.

There are 26 Informatics Polytechnic Institutions in the provinces;
these are equipped with modern digital technology and have an
enrollment of 40,000 students of whom the first class will graduate in
2008.

In addition to the existing programs in the universities, in mid-2002
the Computer Sciences University (UCI) was created. It has 8,000
students selected from among the most talented and hard working in
this specialty.

Complementing this effort there are over 600 Computer Clubs
established and operating throughout the countrys 169 municipalities.

This project is important due to its egalitarian character: everyone
can have access regardless of their age or occupation.

Some 800,000 people have graduated from universities, mainly young
people. Up until today, over 200 of these facilities have Internet
access and there are plans of extending this service to all of them.

There is also the INFOMED network, which belongs to the Health
Ministry. Academics and professionals can also navigate with a
personalized Internet access through special connections. This also
includes doctors, journalists, artists and scientists.

Interviewed by the Cuban press, Engineer Roberto Santiesteban,
director of the Data Business Unit which belongs to the islands
telecommunication company, offered a panorama of the future.

The more we develop our Internet and more possibilities for
connections, the service will spread nationally. This is conditioned
by the cost and technological availability to Cuba, which is advancing
on a yearly basis through the import of computers and making
agreements with other nations, said Santiesteban.

Without a doubt these are the guidelines that will make it possible
for any Cuban to have Internet access, he concluded.

These are the facts on what is happening in Cuba´s present and future
on Internet access.

ef/
***

Radio Havana Cuba Viewpoint - Jun 6, 2006
http://www.radiohc.cu

Despite US Blockade, Cuba Opening Doors to Internet

If someone in any part of the world is told that in Cuba one cannot
have free access to the Internet, one would think that it was simply a
violation of individual freedom - unless they were offered a full
explanation.

What is important is to understand is the digital disparity between
the First and Third Worlds, a situation greatly worsened on the island
due to Washington's economic blockade. In addition to financial
restraints increasingly being placed on Cuba by Washington, the island
is not allowed to connect to underwater optic fibre cables through
which the overwhelming bulk of worldwide information flows. Internet
reception and transmission on the island is therefore reduced to
satellite communication. This substantially limits the country's
connectivity capacity, causes the transmission of information to slow
down and makes the process much more expensive.

For these reasons, the country set out to a development strategy to
forge ahead in the 'informatization' of society. This is seen as the
only way to have technology reach the broadest sectors of the nation
and a larger number of people worldwide. The informatization of
society is defined in Havana as "the process of orderly and massive
use of information and communication technology to satisfy the
information and knowledge needs of all people and spheres of society."
The issue has been touched upon on various occasions in speeches by
Cuban President Fidel Castro, who recently expressed the official
objective: "Millions of Cubans could communicate with millions
of people in the world through the Internet".

The first step in that direction took place in 1996 when the Ministry
of Communications--which until then had been devoted to traditional
postal work, telephone links and radio and television transmissions--
was transformed into the Informatics and Communications Ministry. A
decade later, the island is showing notable advances in this important
sector, as demonstrated by the growing number of citizens and
institutions with Internet access and by in massive training of highly
specialized engineers and technicians.

The scope of this effort would seem inconceivable in not only Third
World nations, but in many First World countries. So as not to offer
an image that might seem overly optimistic, we can make reference to
concrete aspects which are easily verifiable by any interested visitor
to the country. In Cuba, computer courses are included in the national
education programsstarting at the first grade level.

There are 26 Informatics Polytechnic Institutions in the provinces;
these are equipped with modern digital technology and have an
enrollment of 40,000 students of whom the first class will graduate in
2008. In addition to the existing programs in the universities, in
mid-2002 the Computer Sciences University (UCI) was created. It has
8,000 students selected from among the most talented and hard working
in this specialty. Complementing this effort are the over 600 Computer
Clubs established and operating throughout the country's 169
municipalities. This project is important due to its egalitarian
character: everyone can have access regardless of their age or
occupation. Some 800,000 people have graduated from universities,
mainly young people.

Up until today, over 200 of these facilities have Internet access and
there are plans of extending this service to all of them. We can also
mention the INFOMED network, which belongs to the Health Ministry.
Academics and professionals can also navigate with a personalized
Internet access through special connections. This also includes
doctors, journalists, artists and scientists. Interviewed by the Cuban
press, Engineer Roberto Santiesteban, director of the Data Business
Unit which belongs to the island's telecommunication company, offered
a panorama of the future. "The more we develop our Internet and more
possibilities for connections, the service will spread nationally.
This is conditioned by the cost and technological availability to
Cuba, which is advancing on a yearly basis through the import of
computers and making agreements with other nations," said
Santiesteban.

"Without a doubt these are the guidelines that will make it possible
for any Cuban to have Internet access," he concluded.

This and no other is the truth in what is happening in Cuba with the
present and future of Internet access.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

sorry for not clarifying, I meant healthcare is much better under Castro than it was under Batista.

Of course.

Under Batista students could get a doctor degree without even studying.


I will have to agree with chebol regarding crime. Cubans often talk about "the terrible criminality", but they seem to have no idea how criminality is in the rest of the world, or at least they do not compare today's Cuba to the rest of the world. Cuba is the place in the western hemisphere with the lowest crime. It's getting worse, but it is still the lowest. Perhaps it is because of the police use swift and brutal justice, but it works.

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 06:06 PM

You think everyone likes a government which dress police officers as civilians and beat up people? You think everyone likes a government which won't allow people to speak freely? You think everyone likes a government that creates a lot of stupid social and economic situations? You think everyone likes a government which sets so many inconsiderate restrictions? Who cannot even establish rule of law?


All those things are nothing more than lies and you know that, at least I hope you do. The only thing right is what you said about freedom of speech and that is one of the best things that make Communism the best sollution for mankind.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

All those things are nothing more than lies and you know that, at least I hope you do.

And why are you so certain "all those things are nothing more than lies"?

Have you been to Cuba and lived there, among the people?


The only thing right is what you said about freedom of speech

I have written a lot about freedom of speech. What exactly do you believe is "right"?

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:40 AM

Cuba has the highest ratio of Doctors to civilians,


That doesn't matter very much when half of them are sent overseas.

11,3 million people in Cuba. Cuba has 71,000 doctors. How many in Venezuela now? 30,000? How many in the rest of the world? 5,000? Then there will be left 36,000 doctors to Cubans.

I looked up the doctors to civilian ratio. Norway is supposed to have 20,000 doctors. 4,5 million people in Norway.

That means Norway has a much higher ratio of doctors to civilians. And I would say, as a Norwegian, that Norway does have a lack of doctors.

My conversations with Cubans also confirm that there is an almost lack of doctors in Cuba.


It is common practice to "bribe" doctors in order to receive treatment in time. So they bribe doctors to get it done sooner. Usually it amounts to 5-10 dollars. But that is a lot for the common man (or woman) in Cuba. Some can't afford to bribe the doctors, and that makes the situation bad for a lot of people.


as well as hospital beds to the population.

I assume that claim is true.

However, there is a lot more than hospital beds that are lacking: For example, medicine.


They can afford to send doctors abroad

Quite a lot of Cubans would disagree, at least when it comes to the extent of it today.
It's useless to compare a thirld world country to a first world country. I have no idea why a person would compare an imperialist country to a thirld country that has had a 47 year economic blockade.

[left-nut]

Originally posted by Solitary [email protected] 19 2006, 04:21 PM
Actually, im a Cuban, well born within the united states, but my parents are from Cuba. I have visited Cuba and have had conversations with people from cuba. And the conditions are exaggerated. I would love to live there as opposed to the United States. In cuba theres actually a sense of community. Virtually no crime or drugs. and alot of NWOG' statements are false. most cubans do not work two jobs just to get by. Actually you get a supply of rice and steak, anything else you want you buy. and as for the tourist comment, if you go anywhere on vacation you'll be living better than the locals, remember that....thats all i have for now i gues..1 love

Same here, my dad is from Sagua La Grande, Villa Clara.

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 07:16 PM
Bueno, veamos, primero que todos dejenme disculparme, por demorar en responder... ahora vamos por pasos, si soy cubano, y en cuba resido, talvez no lo crean, pero se que al escribir aqui pudiera estar en peligro de una represalia. Pero adelante, se debe dar un paso al frente. No puedo ir respondiendo punto por punto, porque son muchos mensajes. Voy a generalizar en español...
El mundo como todos sabemos no es perfecto, algunos pocos paises se acercan a eso, como suecia... otros estan muy lejos, ahora dire cual es mi punto de vista principal, creo principalmente en Marx, no en Lenin, este ultimo invento el gobierno totalitario... Creo que el socialismo se debe alcanzar a travez del capitalismo, al final de su vida, como se acerca mas suecia que cualquier otro pais, que a logrado eso con medios de produccion capitalistas, y economia de libre mercado, y esta mas cerca que sociedades como Cuba, o China... que no se puede lograr el socialismo imponiendolo, como paso en Cuba... que no se si lo saben, pero no somos un pais socialista, aunque digamos que si lo somos... Que todos debemos ser libres de pensar, y de seguir nuestras ideas, incluso de vivir lo mas alejados, posible, de los temas politicos, ninguna de esas dos cosas son posibles en Cuba. Si eres estudiante universitario, no puedes decir que estas en contra del sistema, porque puedes ser expulsado de la universidad, que en Cuba se dice que las calles son de los revolucionarios, cuando deberian ser de todos... que en cuba si se manifiestan las personas, muy pocas, por el miedo, por las represalias que se toman, porque estamos indefensos, cuando te opones a un regimen que lo controla todo, no tienes forma alguna de defenderte... que las manifestaciones son reprimidas por cuerpos policiales, vestidos de civiles, para que la prensa internacional piense que es realmente el pueblo el que rechaza esas manifestaciones, y no pueda decir que la policia da golpizas. Que nadie, absolutamente nadie puede vivir con lo la cuota reducida de alimentos que se les da. Que los cubanos no pueden entrar a los hoteles que ellos mismo construyen, que no tenemos acceso a la informacion, que no se nos permite tener internet, que para tener telefono tienes que ganartelo por tu actitud politica, o pagarle a algun corrupto para que te lo ponga... la Salud, esta bien, porque decir lo contrario, la atencion de urgencia es muy buena, pero la atencion primaria es pésima... que tienes que ver a un estomatologo y pagarle, para que te atienda, que ahora es que se estan operando de la vista a los cubanos, porque muchos protestaron ya que ibamos a operar a toda latinoamerica y a al resto del mundo antes de operar a los cubanos, muchas cosas mas, espero que todos puedan leerlo y entender lo que he puesto... y que no puedo decir como me conecto a internet, porque seria casi como tirarme a los leones...

Haganle caso a NWOG que todo lo que ha dicho, es cierto... y a RedHerman, te invito a quedarte a vivir en mi casa, te brindo un lugar como mi hermano...

SmokingMan


Suena muy bonito, pero Cuba nunca llegará a ser como Suecia gracias a la cercanía a los EEUU.

¿Cuántos años tiene paisano, y en que parte vives?

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 06:31 PM
First Thanx MARMOT ... we are in agree... then let's me answer some questions... we don't want US to attack us... when I said cubans are waiting for fidel dead... i'm trying to say that we hope Cuba change... why ?? because Fidel is a carismatic leader, (like Hitler) and he can obtain from the people, whatever he want, (well, today is no exactly like that, his pupularity is getting down)... we don't want the US Democracy (that's is better than Cuban, at least for his own people)... if the US attack Cuba, of course there will be an opposition... any want, wants to be his family die, or his country destroyed... no ones wants that... But of course, if they want, they are going to destroy us, exactly like have doing with Iraq... or Afganistan.
We with USA, only want to have normal international relationships... we don't any more, our country figthting with everybody...breaking relationships... for example, USA and EU, a few month ago, were sending some help to the cuban people due to som hurricanes, and you know what Castro said ?? "The cuban people don't need that" ... shit, he don't need ... of course we need, for example in Cuba we have some people waiting for recover your home since 90's due to hurricane... and the cuban people don't need that ??? He must be blind, or are lying shamelessly.
When I asking for help, is not about medical, not military neither... What we need really, is communicate the world what is hapenning here in Cuba, denouncing our true whenever you can... what we prefer, we prefer that cuba's regimen do some democratic changes... but we aren't blind and we know that isn't gone happen.
The transition will be severe, but it must be...

Thnx... SmokingMan
"and Again sorry for my english, sometime I don't exactly how to say what i want to say... and then you can misunderstand me"


Una transición severa sería buena sólo si es únicamente por los cubanos que viven en Cuba sin ayuda extranjera. Estoy totalmente en contra de eso. Si los cubanos quieren cambio, tiene que ser únicamente por ellos .

[left-nut]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 22 2006, 06:32 PM
IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything. However if such a thing did happen, it depends if the Cuban Communist Party bureaucrats would step down from power-- some might, some might not.

Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread. Maybe he's trying to keep the message in the bottle floating in the ocean.

I also agree this would be the best thing for Cuba in the time being.

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 06:42 PM

And what should Cuba go back to exactly, a gangster type government?


Is it not now a gangster type of government? I sure would call many low-key administrators and such, gangsters. A lot of those on the top, too.


If there was all of a sudden an anarchist rebellion, it would have to spread fast and far like wildfire, otherwize that would just evolve into a millitary dictatorship,

Is it not somewhat a military dictatorship now?

The media (talking about TV here, but the same goes for newspapers) is so militarized that sometimes the news speaker is wearing a military uniform while reading the news. That's how closely tied they are.

I think like one third of those in the central commitee are veterans from foreign military missions. I can check this up tommorow just to be sure.


Just maybe Castro is trying to keep Cuba afloat from the imperialists long enough for revolutions to spread.

You don't try keeping Cuba afloat by oppressing the Cuban people.


IMO, I think the best thing for Cuba is if Communist revolutions spread fast and far. That way they'd live more comfortably, have greater freedom and won't be so disgruntled with everything.
Going back to the cold war, are we?

Back then, a lot of music was degenerate and forbidden.

Back then (correct me if I am wrong), having a few dollars in your pocket could mean heavy punishments.

Things were even more worse than now.

:blink:


That is completely untrue. Yes Cuba had less freedoms back then but it was in far better shape economically speaking. If Cuba recovers, I really doubt it will be as restrictive as it was in the past.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

That is completely untrue. Yes Cuba had less freedoms back then but it was in far better shape economically speaking.

I meant worse in regards to political freedom, restrictions, etc.

Of course, we both agree Cuba was in a far better shape economically speaking, before the special period.

Before Cubans could have vacations inside Cuba every year, go to resturants, night life affordable to all, etc. In that respect Cuba was better before the special period.

I think we agree? :)


If Cuba recovers, I really doubt it will be as restrictive as it was in the past.

I hope you are right.

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 07:24 PM

That is completely untrue. Yes Cuba had less freedoms back then but it was in far better shape economically speaking.

I meant worse in regards to political freedom, restrictions, etc.

Of course, we both agree Cuba was in a far better shape economically speaking, before the special period.

Before Cubans could have vacations inside Cuba every year, go to resturants, night life affordable to all, etc. In that respect Cuba was better before the special period.

I think we agree? :)


Of course.

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 04:31 AM

sorry for not clarifying, I meant healthcare is much better under Castro than it was under Batista.

Of course.

Under Batista students could get a doctor degree without even studying.


I will have to agree with chebol regarding crime. Cubans often talk about "the terrible criminality", but they seem to have no idea how criminality is in the rest of the world, or at least they do not compare today's Cuba to the rest of the world. Cuba is the place in the western hemisphere with the lowest crime. It's getting worse, but it is still the lowest. Perhaps it is because of the police use swift and brutal justice, but it works.


Getting worse? Is it in the whole island? I would imagine just in Havana, as some areas of Havana are really the only ones that seem horrible (both in crime and poverty).

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Ok, so here's an open-ended question regarding Cuba:

When Castro passes and Raul then assumes power, what will the fate of Cuba be like? I know Fidel has said many times before that there are many younger leaders who are staunch 'Castroists' ready to take the position once Raul passes because we know both brothers are not very young at all.

In my opinion - there should exist a hybrid democratic socialism. Sort've like what Chavez has stated what he wants Venezuela to be. The state still provides for pretty much all basic necessities, but there is more freedom in voting. As a political science student entering 4th year, I think it is important for people to have that choice in political parties and restore what 'democracy' means.

Living in Canada, there is little difference between the Liberals and Conservatives, and in the US the Republicans and Democrats are pretty much the same. It'd be nice to have real politics again...you know, when it meant something instead of this red corporation vs. blue corporation bullshit.

[metalero]

I was feeling eager to reply in this thread due to the "objective" post by NWOG and smoking man, but after reading such louzy arguments I realized that they discredit themselves, and that the "good social-democrat" role is a far better tactic to undermine a revolutionary process:

"Creo que el socialismo se debe alcanzar a travez del capitalismo, al final de su vida, como se acerca mas suecia que cualquier otro pais, que a logrado eso con medios de produccion capitalistas, y economia de libre mercado" (I think socialism must be reached through capitalism, at the end of its life, like Sweden or any other country that has reached it through means of capitalism and free market economy) truth, free market will lead us to socialism, as it is being constructed in Colombia, Central America, Mexico...

"incluso de vivir lo mas alejados, posible, de los temas politicos, ninguna de esas dos cosas son posibles en Cuba" (even to live the farthest away from political things, which is impossible in Cuba) why would any compromised revolutionary want to exclude himself from political participation, even more when you moan about the lack of political freedom in Cuba?

from Marmot:
"una persona que vive con salario minimo en EUA tiene mejor calidad de vida que un Cubano. " (A person living on a minimum wage in U.S has a better quality of life than an average cuban) :rolleyes: of course, with 6 an hour you can get education, graduate courses, housing, universal health-care, feed your children and raise them satisfying their basics needs...

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 03:37 PM

You think everyone likes a government which won't allow people to speak freely?


That's what you said right; people in Cuba aren't given the full freedom of speech and that's one of the best things in Communism( in Cuba). Like we said before, on one of the discussions, Why would you even let someone yell "Fire!" if it's a lie and there ain't no fire at all?! That's the main logic behind hindering the freedom of speech.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 07:31 AM

from Marmot:
"una persona que vive con salario minimo en EUA tiene mejor calidad de vida que un Cubano. " (A person living on a minimum wage in U.S has a better quality of life than an average cuban) :rolleyes: of course, with 6 an hour you can get education, graduate courses, housing, universal health-care, feed your children and raise them satisfying their basics needs...
uh.

well, it certainly depends. if you live all by yourself you can handle it pretty well through minimum wage.

however, if you have a family, then shit indeed becomes much more difficult.

it would be interesting to analyze the percentage of workers that mantain a family and that live with just minimum wage in America.





"Creo que el socialismo se debe alcanzar a travez del capitalismo, al final de su vida, como se acerca mas suecia que cualquier otro pais, que a logrado eso con medios de produccion capitalistas, y economia de libre mercado" (I think socialism must be reached through capitalism, at the end of its life, like Sweden or any other country that has reached it through means of capitalism and free market economy) truth, free market will lead us to socialism, as it is being constructed in Colombia, Central America, Mexico...

that is not only a "social-democrat" viewpoint, it is an orthodox marxist one too. that crap about skipping capítalism is leninist/trotskyist hogwash.

[chebol]

Problem being that Sweden hasn't reached socialism, by capitalism, or any other means.

And I remain sceptical of a "cuban" who continues to echo certain particular popular misconceived claims about 'Scandinavian Socialism', while badmouthing Cuba, and with narely a mention of the US, but who lauds the free market as the future, using the basket cases of NAFTA and North American imperialism as examples of that. If this isn't social democratic apologism (if not worse), I'll shave my beard off.

And on the issue of the minimum wage - well in Cuba, you also get free education, health care, and guaranteed housing and food. Rather better 'quality of life' than the working poor.

[Louis Pio]

Indeed Sweden hans't reached socialism, as have no country in Scandinavia contrary to what reformists from other parts of the world belive. The Scandinavian wellfare system is under hard attacks from our own bourgiosie at this moment. And is slowly being demolished, this exactly shows the impotence of reformism to provide any lasting improvements. The wellfare system could only be build because capitalism had room to grant improvements in the post-WW2 boom, also it was a tool to try to keep workers from reaching revolutionary conclusions.

Sorry for going off topic, just can't stand when people talk about "scandinavian socialism", it's crap of the worst kind.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Sorry for going off topic, just can't stand when people talk about "scandinavian socialism", it's crap of the worst kind.
Yeah, me too.

It's foul crap, and I think every real scandinavian leftist would feel offended by it. Or at the very least dismiss even the slightest notion of "scandinavian socialism" outright without a second thought.

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 03:11 AM
And on the issue of the minimum wage - well in Cuba, you also get free education, health care, and guaranteed housing and food. Rather better 'quality of life' than the working poor.
Chebol, if you refer to me, I was using sarcasm to let know that an average person in cuba can satisfy his basic material and cultural needs, unlikely anyone working in U.S on a minimun wage who could only eat, sleep and work.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:55 PM
Cuba however still remains a dictatorship which we therefore should criticize while still defending what it has accomplished and against imperialism
How is Cuba a dictatorship? Because they don't mimick U$ style elections?

And what is wrong with dictatorship?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The truth about cuba (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5a.html)

A long standing myth, promoted by the U.S. government and enemies of the revolution, is that democracy doesn’t exist in Cuba. In fact, Cuba has one of the most democratic systems in the world!
Cubans select their representatives through a process known as Poder Popular (Peoples Power) in elections that take place every 2 ½ years.
Cubans sixteen and older elect, via direct and secret ballot, city and provincial leaders, and representatives of the National Assembly. The National Assembly in turn nominates and then elects the president.

But what is it that makes Cuba’s system so democratic?

First of all, the Cuban people themselves meet and nominate candidates, and anyone can be selected, including non-members of the PCC (Cuban Communist Party). Most who are selected are workers or peasants, or students who are children of workers or peasants. As Ricardo Alarcón, president of Cuba's parliament explains, "In other words, everyone within society can nominate whoever they want, and then make up their own minds." Tellingly, although the PCC presents no lists or candidates, over three quarters of successful candidates are party members.
Secondly, campaigns – which in capitalist “democracies” consist of rich politicians and their friends spending huge sums of money on television, radio, and newspaper ads in which they deceive voters with false promises – are a thing of the past in Cuba. Instead, a resume of each candidate, including a photograph and a biography listing things such as education and experience are posted in public places prior to the election.
Finally, all representatives are subject to recall by their electors. In other words, if the people are not satisfied with their representatives, they can vote to remove them from their position, and then nominate and elect someone else to replace them.
This truly democratic process, completely impartial and free from corruption, explains why elections in Cuba have voter turnouts of 95 percent and higher, while in “democratic” capitalist countries like the U.S. less than half of the eligible voters ever cast a ballot.

It doesn’t end there. The Cuban people are involved in all aspects of society through their work places and unions, and mass organizations like the Federation of Cuban Women and Committees in Defense of the Revolution. Delegates of Peoples Power meet with those they represent on a regular basis, not only discussing their problems, but offering solutions. In Cuba, even congressional bills and laws are submitted to the people for their discussion and approval!
And as anyone that has visited Cuba will tell you, Cubans who are critical of the government have no fear in voicing their views.
The truth is, the revolution could not have lasted over forty-six years, under continual attack, were it not for the full support of the Cuban people, because, after all, the revolution is the Cuban people.

Let's talk about Cuban democracy (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html)

In a few days Cubans will be at the polls again. A good number of citizens who are already used to this practice, and others who, at 16, will make use of this right for the first time in their lives, perhaps will not be able to understand why the Island is the constant target of accusations about its political and electoral systems.
The Island's reality has been so distorted around the world that many people think Cubans don't have the right to vote. The authorized opinion of Ricardo Alarcón de Quezada, President of the National Assembly of People's Power, whom we have been talking with several times about democracy and its many aspects, reflects, analyzes and expands on that popular issue.

Liset García – In today's world, so complex and under unipolar rule, what can we understand as democracy?

Ricardo Alarcón – Currently, in the world, what's considered to be democracy is really a fraud. Hegemonic countries, those with the financial power, the main beneficiaries of globalization, use increasingly empty rhetoric. Absence of democracy predominates.
The essential features of neo-liberalism as ruler of society means letting capital advance without obstacles, which means reducing the role of the State, as well as its ruling function. It is then very difficult for democratic institutions to continue, even those who originated as part of the capitalist bourgeois system, because they have an increasingly lesser role. And this situation develops at international level. There is news evidencing this every day.
Not long ago it was announced in the U.S., as if they were announcing rain, that more than one thousand employees had been fired due to one of those mega-mergers happening there every day. The news did not point out at any time that there was any type of talk with the workers or the unions. You can read every day about decisions which are deeply affecting the people, and there is no reference that they have participated in the decision making process. They were not even informed beforehand.
There is also talk about free trade agreements between countries. Now they are talking about a Central American Free Trade Agreement. In those countries, the issue has not been discussed, not even in parliaments. When those governments accept the agreements under U.S. pressure, they will be approved and will become law.
In the mid-nineties, a treaty called the Multilateral Investment Agreement was almost approved. It was something savage, like a world's ALCA [Spanish acronym for FTAA – Free Trade Agreement of the Americas –editor]. According to the text, who was published later, investors have all the power. They did not have any obstacle. It was even possible to sue those governments trying to obstruct the flow of capital. That meant that democracy, as we have understood it for centuries, was turned around. Those negotiations were done in complete secrecy, until the French NGO found it and published it in the internet. Some members of parliaments around the world starting complaining about it and they opposed it.
Everybody remembers in Cuba the worker's parliament at the beginning of the special period, when the crisis was at its worst. Discussions with the people about problems in the Cuban society were opened up. That is supposed to be real democracy. What's happening around the world is the complete opposite.
That's why people are becoming more and more disenchanted with democratic institutions and political parties, as well as taking abstentionist positions. People do not become involved because they do not believe, they realize that it makes little sense.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 28 2006, 01:43 AM
The truth about cuba (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5a.html)

A long standing myth, promoted by the U.S. government and enemies of the revolution, is that democracy doesn’t exist in Cuba. In fact, Cuba has one of the most democratic systems in the world!
Cubans select their representatives through a process known as Poder Popular (Peoples Power) in elections that take place every 2 ½ years.
Cubans sixteen and older elect, via direct and secret ballot, city and provincial leaders, and representatives of the National Assembly. The National Assembly in turn nominates and then elects the president.

But what is it that makes Cuba’s system so democratic?

First of all, the Cuban people themselves meet and nominate candidates, and anyone can be selected, including non-members of the PCC (Cuban Communist Party). Most who are selected are workers or peasants, or students who are children of workers or peasants. As Ricardo Alarcón, president of Cuba's parliament explains, "In other words, everyone within society can nominate whoever they want, and then make up their own minds." Tellingly, although the PCC presents no lists or candidates, over three quarters of successful candidates are party members.
Secondly, campaigns – which in capitalist “democracies” consist of rich politicians and their friends spending huge sums of money on television, radio, and newspaper ads in which they deceive voters with false promises – are a thing of the past in Cuba. Instead, a resume of each candidate, including a photograph and a biography listing things such as education and experience are posted in public places prior to the election.
Finally, all representatives are subject to recall by their electors. In other words, if the people are not satisfied with their representatives, they can vote to remove them from their position, and then nominate and elect someone else to replace them.
This truly democratic process, completely impartial and free from corruption, explains why elections in Cuba have voter turnouts of 95 percent and higher, while in “democratic” capitalist countries like the U.S. less than half of the eligible voters ever cast a ballot.

It doesn’t end there. The Cuban people are involved in all aspects of society through their work places and unions, and mass organizations like the Federation of Cuban Women and Committees in Defense of the Revolution. Delegates of Peoples Power meet with those they represent on a regular basis, not only discussing their problems, but offering solutions. In Cuba, even congressional bills and laws are submitted to the people for their discussion and approval!
And as anyone that has visited Cuba will tell you, Cubans who are critical of the government have no fear in voicing their views.
The truth is, the revolution could not have lasted over forty-six years, under continual attack, were it not for the full support of the Cuban people, because, after all, the revolution is the Cuban people.

Let's talk about Cuban democracy (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html)

In a few days Cubans will be at the polls again. A good number of citizens who are already used to this practice, and others who, at 16, will make use of this right for the first time in their lives, perhaps will not be able to understand why the Island is the constant target of accusations about its political and electoral systems.
The Island's reality has been so distorted around the world that many people think Cubans don't have the right to vote. The authorized opinion of Ricardo Alarcón de Quezada, President of the National Assembly of People's Power, whom we have been talking with several times about democracy and its many aspects, reflects, analyzes and expands on that popular issue.

Liset García – In today's world, so complex and under unipolar rule, what can we understand as democracy?

Ricardo Alarcón – Currently, in the world, what's considered to be democracy is really a fraud. Hegemonic countries, those with the financial power, the main beneficiaries of globalization, use increasingly empty rhetoric. Absence of democracy predominates.
The essential features of neo-liberalism as ruler of society means letting capital advance without obstacles, which means reducing the role of the State, as well as its ruling function. It is then very difficult for democratic institutions to continue, even those who originated as part of the capitalist bourgeois system, because they have an increasingly lesser role. And this situation develops at international level. There is news evidencing this every day.
Not long ago it was announced in the U.S., as if they were announcing rain, that more than one thousand employees had been fired due to one of those mega-mergers happening there every day. The news did not point out at any time that there was any type of talk with the workers or the unions. You can read every day about decisions which are deeply affecting the people, and there is no reference that they have participated in the decision making process. They were not even informed beforehand.
There is also talk about free trade agreements between countries. Now they are talking about a Central American Free Trade Agreement. In those countries, the issue has not been discussed, not even in parliaments. When those governments accept the agreements under U.S. pressure, they will be approved and will become law.
In the mid-nineties, a treaty called the Multilateral Investment Agreement was almost approved. It was something savage, like a world's ALCA [Spanish acronym for FTAA – Free Trade Agreement of the Americas –editor]. According to the text, who was published later, investors have all the power. They did not have any obstacle. It was even possible to sue those governments trying to obstruct the flow of capital. That meant that democracy, as we have understood it for centuries, was turned around. Those negotiations were done in complete secrecy, until the French NGO found it and published it in the internet. Some members of parliaments around the world starting complaining about it and they opposed it.
Everybody remembers in Cuba the worker's parliament at the beginning of the special period, when the crisis was at its worst. Discussions with the people about problems in the Cuban society were opened up. That is supposed to be real democracy. What's happening around the world is the complete opposite.
That's why people are becoming more and more disenchanted with democratic institutions and political parties, as well as taking abstentionist positions. People do not become involved because they do not believe, they realize that it makes little sense.
Wow. That cleared up a lot. Wish I could go to Cuba...

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Gojo, you are quoting yourself..

[leninist1917]

I visited Cuba last summer. I had a great time, music culture, so different to anything i've experienced before. I have to disagree with some of the "everything is rosey in the garden" posts. I was shocked by the poverty, prostitution, drugs and racism I found. Admittedly, I was only there 3 weeks. however my girlfriend was there 3 months. She got to know a number of Cubans, stayed in the family homes etc. I had a pair of sandals robbed and a pair of runners, every night we were offered drugs and access to prostitutes. The food was of a very poor quality and scarce, especially beef and vegetables. this appeared to be the case for everyone whether you stayed in a pension or went to a decent restuarant. habana looked like it was about to collapse!
This can all be explained away (at least partially) by the vicious economic blockade of Cuba. However, more worryingly, I saw a different side of Cuba. I also visited Varadero and a collection of islands about a 6 hour drive from Varadero on the north coast called Cayo Coco (I think hemmingway had a summer house here, or lived here for awhile). I was shocked at what I saw. We arrived in a taxi at around 12 in the night. The island was connected to the mainland by a single landbridge, halfway across which there was a checkpoint where we were obliged to handover our passports and Cubans anded over credentials/permits of some kind for inspection. After about 10 minutes we were waved on (we also had to pay 20 convertable pesos for the pleassure).
We were very tired after our journey, so we wanted to find somewhere quick. The first place we arrived at was just amazing. I'd never seen anything like it - a huge hotel complex newly built in tasteful decor, air-conditioned and camoflaged with lush vegetation. This looks like a nice place we thought. But to our horror we discovered that it cost 450 convertable pesos per person per night! (eventually, we found more modest accommodation for 40 pesos between two people per night)
We realised that we had arrived at a capitalist enclave. Over the next week we were treated with free cigars, Russian caviar, the choicest roast Argentinian beef, washed down with any drink you wanted - and i mean anything. At the end of the night mountains of food were removed no doubt to be thrown out. The place was full of wealthy individuals, some honeymooners, mainly from other parts of latin america, but a number of europeans too. These were waited on night after night by smiling cubanos who did there best to ensure everything was satisfactory. My girlfriend and I befriended some of these, we talked and joked, asked about their lives and family what their dreams of the future were. The others - the gringos - barely acknowledgd their servants. These hotel complexes were all inclussive deals. As we later found out 450 was the cheapest room available in these complexes. After working from morning to night - and late into the night - these workers were bused off the island - No cubanos were allowed to live on the island!! I am not very well off, the holiday was a present from my girlfriend, who is a teacher. But we both made an effort to connect with ordinary working class cubanos. every night after dinner we left huge tips (by cuban standards) but to our horror, the waiters and waitresses could expect maybe 2 or 3 pesos tip a night, we made a point of never giving anything below 20. The workers were not allowed any social connection with the tourists not even when they were finished work.

I couldn't believe the super abundance of wealth and luxurious goods that are just not available to ordinary cubanos. I have never seen such a class division in society as in cuba. What struck me about habana was the number of cubanos who worked in the informal sector, as guides, musicians, taxi drivers etc. these people seem to have different aspiration than the ordinary cubanos who work in health, education or industry. they are more critical of the regime, and have more illussions in "western democracy". Accoding to a tourist book i read, this informal sector is the fastest growing sector in the economy linked as it is with the toursist boom. I think this development poses a threat to the future of the system in cuba becasue this layer of people provides a base for counter revolution in a period of uncertainty, for example when castro dies.

I was also surprised at the number of private contracts that are being developed with capitalist companies, oil exploration and extraction for example. It is clear to me that cuba is a country in transition. there are many contradictory develpoments taking place. on the one hand there is a huge support and belief of the legacy of Che and the revolution, but this is more so among the older generations than amongst the youth. It is a country in transition, but i don't think it is going in the direction of genuine socialism. i don't see the basis for a real development in peoples living standards. I think cuba is moving in the direction of China and a mixed economy with a greater role for small business and private interests relying and encouraging foreign investment. I would be interested in other peoples views on this and where cuba is going

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I have never seen such a class division in society as in cuba.

Where else have you been in Latin America?? My guess is no where, since the divisions in Cuba don't even compare to those in any other country in Latin America.

Is Cuba poor? You bet. The entire Latin America, Africa, and Asia are. But with what it has, how does Cuba compare to other poor countries? It surpasses them all in every social measure. The Cuba Truth Project (http://www.cubatruth.info)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Well, CompañeroDeLibertad, from what I have read, the difference between rich and poor is especially noticeable due to the housing policy. So well-off cubans live side by side with the poorest. That, to see the well-off cubans side by side with the poor, makes a lot of the poor cubans angry and upset.


Interesting read, leninist1917.



Is Cuba poor? You bet. The entire Latin America, Africa, and Asia are.

Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, and to some extent China are not poor... In some places in China, living standards can soon be compared to (even Western) European levels.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Poverty is still rife in Asia.. just because the capitalist class and petty bourgeoisie are well off doesn't affect my original statement.

---

There are at least 80 - 100 million people on the move in China as a result of poverty in the rural areas.

The proportion of the poor in the western provinces increased from less than half of all China’s rural poor in 1988 to more than two thirds in 1996 because poverty reduction efforts have not been as successful in these regions.

http://www.unchina.org/about_china/html/poverty.shtml

Joblessness and poverty in South Korea (http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jun1999/kor-j01.shtml)

[Avtomatov]

Why are there rich in cuba?

[Messiah]

Originally posted by Marcel
And what is wrong with dictatorship?

It's shit like this that gives us ALL a bad name.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:28 PM


Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, and to some extent China are not poor... In some places in China, living standards can soon be compared to (even Western) European levels.
China isn't poor?! Good luck winning that argument...

There are very few places in the countries you've listed where living is comparable to the west. You are clearly overlooking the vast majority, which makes your claim very ridiculous.

I understand you said 'some places in China' are comparable to westernized living standards, which is true. But those places are very small. Very small. India is also very industrialized in Bombay and certain provinces - but outside that, you get clear poverty. I think you need to rework your argument on that end.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Why are there rich in cuba?

Where are there rich in Cuba?

There, I fixed it for you so you don't look so ridiculous.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:34 AM

I would rather live In Cuba than in any other part of the world

No you wouldn't. Have you ever been to Cuba? Let's start with the basics. If you lived in cuba you couldn't go on revleft because it is illegal to even have a typewriter in your home.
*Sniff sniff*

Wooo wee, someone tell the bull this isn't an outhouse.




Seriously, that is entirely untrue. Cuba's NIGHTMARE is to keep people uninformed and in the dark. The only silencing done is that in the interest of stability and security, and in a way far less intrusive and malevolent than in the US.