State Capitalism

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I was wondering if anyone could explain what is state capitalism? and how was the USSR state capitalist? Thanks

[nickdlc]

I asked the same question myself a while ago and i provided a link that has a discussion we had a couple of months ago.

Basically since the Means of Production were in the hands of the state and who ever was in control of the state of the time decided what would be produced and how (through five year plans) which is contrary to what communism and socialism stands for (common ownership over means of production). When you think about it it's not much different from normal capitalistm (minority controling majority). What Lenninists need to understand that nationalisation is not synonymous with socialisation where in the latter the producers actively control their power and influence over theMoP democratically.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=47266

[hoopla]

Well, I hear that state-capitalism is when one part of the law of value remains - suprlus value is still expropriated, by the bureaucracy.

[Rawthentic]

....and has been created by Leninism. When Leninist revolutions occured, they were in feudal or semi-feudal nations, where communism was not yet possible, forcing a dictatorship over the proletariat, or peasantry for that matter, who did not have the class-consciousness or material conditions for communism.

[Guest1]

Wow, some very ignorant responses here.

This article, written in 1967, sheds some light on what was happening in the USSR and the reasons for the collapse.

Bureaucratism or Workers' Power (http://www.marxist.com/bureaucratism-or-workers-power.htm)

[hoopla]

Ignorant! Jeez.

Anyway, I don't think what was asked for, was a history of the Soviet Union, but a concise definition of the term "state capitalism". Rather than reading a 30 page artice :rolleyes: with no mention of the term "state capitalism" :rolleyes: why don't you attempt a short description of what is meant by the concept?

If the term has no currency beyond a description of the USSR, then it wouldn't be an issue in the way it is.

Edit: from wiki
The common themes among them (descriptions of state capitalism, there are several) are to identify that the workers do not meaningfully control the means of production and that commodity relations and production for profit still occur within state capitalism.As a side note, Aufheben criticiesed Cliff's denial that the law of value existed in the USSR.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria
....and has been created by Leninism. When Leninist revolutions occured, they were in feudal or semi-feudal nations, where communism was not yet possible, forcing a dictatorship over the proletariat, or peasantry for that matter, who did not have the class-consciousness or material conditions for communism.


You might want to remove the picture of that Leninist from your avatar, and while you're at it, also remove his name and quote from your sig.

That is, of course, if you were consistant in your views and had an ounce of decency.

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by Massoud+Jun 18 2006, 02:29 AM--> (Massoud @ Jun 18 2006, 02:29 AM)
hastalavictoria
....and has been created by Leninism. When Leninist revolutions occured, they were in feudal or semi-feudal nations, where communism was not yet possible, forcing a dictatorship over the proletariat, or peasantry for that matter, who did not have the class-consciousness or material conditions for communism.


You might want to remove the picture of that Leninist from your avatar, and while you're at it, also remove his name and quote from your sig.

That is, of course, if you were consistant in your views and had an ounce of decency. [/b]
Oh come on now, you know that ain't going to happen, seems there are a lot of anarchists who have a Che picture...oddle enough.

[Rawthentic]

If every Leninist was like Che, then I'd be one. He devoted his life to helping the people in real, concrete ways, not stuffed up in some beaurocratic Party office, and certainly wasnt a repressor. And I am consistent with my views, but Che is a universal symbol of revolution

[KC]

If every Leninist was like Che, then I'd be one.

Okay. So either you think there's nothing wrong with "Leninists" or you do and remove the Che pic/sig. Pick one.

[Lamanov]

Check this out:

State Capitalism and the Deformation of Value, analysis by Aufheben [4 parts] (http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_6_ussr1.html)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Thanks for that link DJ; an interesting article, that merits close study.

However, check this out too:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/wor...sovietunion.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/works/1976/09/sovietunion.htm)

[barista.marxista]

First of all, Che became disillusioned with the USSR early in his revolutionary days. I think if he had lived to see the downfall of Maoism, he would've turned out the way Negri did -- an ex-Leninist who came to autonomist ideas. Of course, this is speculative, but Che was a communist who lead a guerilla surgency and hated the bureaucratic state, as shown by his trip to Bolivia. I admire Che for how he sacrificed himself to revolution, was anti-state, and how he has become a folk hero for struggles in the south. Not for what he thought of himself as.

On topic: I recommend the Johnson-Forrest Tendency's State Capitalism and World Revolution for a discussion of what state-capitalism is, and how the USSR was such.

[Herman]

If every Leninist was like Che, then I'd be one. He devoted his life to helping the people in real, concrete ways, not stuffed up in some beaurocratic Party office, and certainly wasnt a repressor. And I am consistent with my views, but Che is a universal symbol of revolution

Sorry to tell you this, but Che was a Marxist-Leninist. And previously you posted how Marxist-leninism lead to 'State Capitalism' (A term coined by Trotsky by the way).

[Lamanov]

People from Aufheben (as you can see in the 1st part footnotes) claim in their analisys that "Marxist-Humanist" theory of "State-Capitalism" deserves alot more attention than it's contemporary Trotskyist "revision" (T.Cliff, D.Hallas & SWP) [not to mention the "Left Communst" development of that same theory, both "Bordigist" and "Council" tradition], so I think this article may be interesting and worth checking out:

The Nature of Russian Economy by Raya Dunayevskaya (http://www.marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1946/statecap.htm)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Sorry to tell you this, but Che was a Marxist-Leninist. And previously you posted how Marxist-leninism lead to 'State Capitalism' (A term coined by Trotsky by the way).

I thought the trots were the 'degenerate worker's state' guys. The only trots I ever heard of who thought it was 'state capitalist' were the Neo-Trots of the SWP like Tony Cliff.

[Janus]

I thought the trots were the 'degenerate worker's state' guys.
Yeah, that term was coined by Trotsky. I don't think he coined state capitalism though.

By the way, can we move the Che discussion to the appropriate forum?

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 07:44 AM
...'State Capitalism' (A term coined by Trotsky by the way).

Excuse me, but Trotsky did not "coin" that term. He probably wished it didn't exist. :lol:

First Bolshevik to make a theoretical use of that term was Bukharin, and Russian Left Communists in their responce to the 'New Course' policy. Even Lenin used it before Trotsky, in order to justify the politics of his government in responce to Russian Left Communists.

Now, further early developments of this theory were pioneered by Ruhle, Pannekoek and Bordiga.