Spanish civil war - The book

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The book of Antony beevor. What do you think?

[pcb]

Have not read it yet but he has an eye for detail ref his book history of the Spain Civil War published 1982. He appears to be critical of the left which is good due to the fact that a lot of books on the Civil War stray from the shootings that the Republic had a hand in

[Tickin' TimebOmb John]

Read it for an study i had to write on Spanish Civil WAr. Generally found it a gd read, altho i prefered both Preston and Thomas' (even tho hes a reactionary swine) books on the subject as i found them more accesible. Beevors is howvever, in my opinion better than his book on Stalingrad, which whilst gd i found difficult to get thru at times.

[chimx]

Gerald Brenan's work is a classic on the subject:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0521398274.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

he does a good job of explaining why the Left's irreverence to religious institutions and cultural traditions really alienated many spaniards from the movement. its a pity people today can't learn from the mistakes of history.

[ComradeOm]

I'll be reading Beevor's book while away this week. I've heard good things and so am looking forward to it.

[Herman]

I trust Spanish historians better.

[Intelligitimate]

I suggest reading Grover Furr's review of Spain Betrayed (http://clogic.eserver.org/2003/furr.html).

[Intelligitimate]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 05:52 PM
Gerald Brenan's work is a classic on the subject:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0521398274.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

he does a good job of explaining why the Left's irreverence to religious institutions and cultural traditions really alienated many spaniards from the movement. its a pity people today can't learn from the mistakes of history.
Yeah, murdering priests is a great way to win people over. The activity of the Spanish anarchists was absolutely despicable, especially Orwell ratting on all his fellow travelers to the IRD.

[Andy Bowden]

Weren't the Spanish Catholic priests allied with the fascists at the time?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Yeah, murdering priests is a great way to win people over. The activity of the Spanish anarchists was absolutely despicable, especially Orwell ratting on all his fellow travelers to the IRD.

Yes because there is something inherently wrong with shooting a priest who supports fascism :rolleyes: Fuck you apologists, have fun in bed with reactionaries. I'm sure you'll win the revolution :lol:

[Intelligitimate]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:35 PM

Yeah, murdering priests is a great way to win people over. The activity of the Spanish anarchists was absolutely despicable, especially Orwell ratting on all his fellow travelers to the IRD.

Yes because there is something inherently wrong with shooting a priest who supports fascism :rolleyes: Fuck you apologists, have fun in bed with reactionaries. I'm sure you'll win the revolution :lol:
Too left, too soon, violencia.Proletariat.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 05:38 PM

Too left, too soon, violencia.Proletariat.
This is my problem with the left. It's like one big strategy game. 'When shall we push our revolutionary ideas', 'what should we do to get more people to listen to us without scaring them away?'. Thats a complete waste of time. This is not a damn puzzle. Weshould be revolutionary ALL THE TIME because thats what we are. When its time for revolution our radical ideas will have been pushed from the beggining. We will not lose our ideas to reformism or "lightening up."

[Intelligitimate]

Originally posted by violencia.Proletariat+Jun 19 2006, 09:42 PM--> (violencia.Proletariat @ Jun 19 2006, 09:42 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 05:38 PM

Too left, too soon, violencia.Proletariat.
This is my problem with the left. It's like one big strategy game. 'When shall we push our revolutionary ideas', 'what should we do to get more people to listen to us without scaring them away?'. Thats a complete waste of time. This is not a damn puzzle. Weshould be revolutionary ALL THE TIME because thats what we are. When its time for revolution our radical ideas will have been pushed from the beggining. We will not lose our ideas to reformism or "lightening up." [/b]
1. The anarchists were trying to build a classless society in the middle of a civil war with fascists. Their priorities were completely out of whack.

2. Killing priests didn't help a god damn thing, except the fascists. Their battle cry was against the atheist red hordes, and murdering priests only lent credence to their position.

3. Only fools aren't concerned with strategy. Those who aren't are useless or dead.

[violencia.Proletariat]

1. The anarchists were trying to build a classless society in the middle of a civil war with fascists. Their priorities were completely out of whack.

Why? They were destroying the basis of which fascism works on.


2. Killing priests didn't help a god damn thing, except the fascists. Their battle cry was against the atheist red hordes, and murdering priests only lent credence to their position.

Killing priests helps a lot if they are supplying information to fascists. I've never heard the arguement that the anarchists lost the war because they shot the priests. If I'm not mistaken there were only a few churches in Barcelona that were left untouched but no one seemed to betray the revolution because of that.


3. Only fools aren't concerned with strategy. Those who aren't are useless or dead.

The strategy of what? How best to fool people into listening to us? I think you have already lost the battle if thats what your trying to do.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by Intelligitimate+Jun 19 2006, 09:49 PM--> (Intelligitimate @ Jun 19 2006, 09:49 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:42 PM

[email protected] 19 2006, 05:38 PM

Too left, too soon, violencia.Proletariat.
This is my problem with the left. It's like one big strategy game. 'When shall we push our revolutionary ideas', 'what should we do to get more people to listen to us without scaring them away?'. Thats a complete waste of time. This is not a damn puzzle. Weshould be revolutionary ALL THE TIME because thats what we are. When its time for revolution our radical ideas will have been pushed from the beggining. We will not lose our ideas to reformism or "lightening up."
1. The anarchists were trying to build a classless society in the middle of a civil war with fascists. Their priorities were completely out of whack.

2. Killing priests didn't help a god damn thing, except the fascists. Their battle cry was against the atheist red hordes, and murdering priests only lent credence to their position.

3. Only fools aren't concerned with strategy. Those who aren't are useless or dead. [/b]
Clearly better we let the central leadership dictate the path to the revolution..

how long was the transitional phase in the soviet Union again? 75 years not quite long enough to put the workers in the saddle?

By the way what part of the anti facist strategy was keeping guns at the rear to kill other revolutionaries while anti facist forces at the front go without arms?

Not sure how that strategy was supposed to work out, oh well Im sure Stalin knows best.

[chimx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:58 PM
Killing priests helps a lot if they are supplying information to fascists. I've never heard the arguement that the anarchists lost the war because they shot the priests. If I'm not mistaken there were only a few churches in Barcelona that were left untouched but no one seemed to betray the revolution because of that.
i just linked you a book

[Ander]

Originally posted by chimx+Jun 19 2006, 09:21 PM--> (chimx @ Jun 19 2006, 09:21 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 09:58 PM
Killing priests helps a lot if they are supplying information to fascists. I've never heard the arguement that the anarchists lost the war because they shot the priests. If I'm not mistaken there were only a few churches in Barcelona that were left untouched but no one seemed to betray the revolution because of that.
i just linked you a book [/b]
Hahahahaha!!! Shit that was hilarious...I'm still laughing :lol:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Yeah, murdering priests is a great way to win people over. The activity of the Spanish anarchists was absolutely despicable, especially Orwell ratting on all his fellow travelers to the IRD.

Interesting info on Orwell.

I would like to learn more about that. What happened to those he ratted about?




PS: I assume "ratting" means telling something revealing to the bad guys?

[ComradeOm]

Just read the book while away this week. Generally a good read though I wouldn't rate it as highly as Berlin. A result of being a much broader history I'm sure. As a general history it does score quite well.

The only major complaint I had was the very poor quality of the referencing. A bibliography was provided for each chapter but no actual references to the text. A real pain in the arse.