Foundation Hospitals... - ...Prepare for the Revolution

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I'm not sure if any of you saw the House of Commons vote, but I'm sure you will have heard the news by now.

So, the rebels have failed, again. Mr. Hinchliffe's proposal will go through. The revolution is taking place.

Tragically, the one great institution we have, whether it be facing problems or not, is fading. Aneurin Bevan's creation is now being undermined by novice's in green seats. We know what to expect from here and that is that our National Health Service WILL disintergrate and we will become privatised, or "Thatcherised" as I have heard it called before.

I tend to see this as becoming "Blairised" more than anything else. I backed Blair on the Iraq situation, but this is an even more blatant disconsideration for public opinion and public interests. It seems as though we will need to make the most of our universal health service before is eventually becomes completely privatised. My respect for those men and women in the House has decreased immensely because of this as our health service sways towards being only for the wealthy.

We are being led back into the dark ages. And if the NHS does survive, look what happened post-Tories after their reforms. They took the steps towards privatisation, didn't finish, and others were left to scoop up the remains of the NHS. Could this happen again? Or will Blair complete the job? Either way, it stinks. Either way, we lose. And either way, the class gap widens.

[Saint-Just]

I agree, its unfortunate the masses of people cannot see the new Labour party for who they truly are. They have continued all the 80's and 90's, Thatcher/Major policies. If you heard them, Labour were talking about democratising the NHS, similar to the way Thatcher 'democratised' the trade unions by banning closed shops. Worst of all, we do not need a Conservative party anymore, it is frustrating we still have one, since we have our new Conservative party with new Labour. Then again I never like Labour..

[Comrade H]

The whole situation is depressing. I cannot vote for Labour, for they will sell away my country. I cannot vote for the Tories, for they too will sell away my country, just to a different bidder. I cannot vote for the Liberals because they have less idea than me what's going on, and I cannot start a revolution, for the army will crush me. I despair.

[Subcomandante Marcos]

Privatizing health is a crime, in my country the constitution says every citizen has the right to be healthy and the state has to provide him/her with anything they lack, of course that is some nice idea in ink but it is sad to see my countries healtcare facilities.

Tey lack one the enough room for everyone, lines are for hours just for an appointment, there is not enough beds and the bills are millions, millions who people dont have and they are literally dying in hospitals for their inept attitude toward the patients.

They only way to get healthcare is through a "Isapre", a company who you have to pya a certain amount of money every month and they give coverage for some diseases depending on what plan you have. of course you pay a lot of money and because this is a business, whenever the company has a deficit you have to pay more, and whenever there is a surplus you pay the same.

privatization sucks, and i wonder if the politicians voting on theri comfortable chair have a heart on their chest.

[Sandanista]

I too am saddened by the result of the commons vote, this means a further increase in the divisions in the health service, and as usual its US, the working class who loses out.

However wouldnt it be cool if blair was doin all this to incite a revolution?

Ach well, we can dream...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I think maybe this could instigate change though.

Like I said, Blair is heading down the same path as Mrs. Thatcher and look what happened. Ignoring pressure groups and interest groups was her policy. Blair is doing the same. Firefighters, Iraq, Student fee's and now the NHS reform. Ultimately, ignoring pressure groups turns into ignoring public opinion and this turns into loss of votes. Labour may be sitting pretty right now, but I feel the media could begin to point out the persistent ignorance of public opinion. If the media does this, it would provoke a reaction. The problem then, however, beomces the fact that the Tories are second.

Both of my parents work for the NHS, my father in a high position. Apparently the only people within the NHS who really showed their support was the Chief executives, suprise surpise. Obviously not only them, but a huge majority of NHS workers are against it. There is apparently talk of strikes within the health service. But this is extremely doubtful as most NHS workers are simply too devoted to their jobs. It's a very different situtation to being a fireman. I don't know if anyone has been watching the Commons today but the backbenchers have been slaughtering the government. The rebels are not backing down. Sadly, this will probably all be in vain

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 5:31 pm on May 8, 2003
I think maybe this could instigate change though.

Like I said, Blair is heading down the same path as Mrs. Thatcher and look what happened. Ignoring pressure groups and interest groups was her policy. Blair is doing the same. Firefighters, Iraq, Student fee's and now the NHS reform. Ultimately, ignoring pressure groups turns into ignoring public opinion and this turns into loss of votes. Labour may be sitting pretty right now, but I feel the media could begin to point out the persistent ignorance of public opinion. If the media does this, it would provoke a reaction. The problem then, however, beomces the fact that the Tories are second.

Both of my parents work for the NHS, my father in a high position. Apparently the only people within the NHS who really showed their support was the Chief executives, suprise surpise. Obviously not only them, but a huge majority of NHS workers are against it. There is apparently talk of strikes within the health service. But this is extremely doubtful as most NHS workers are simply too devoted to their jobs. It's a very different situtation to being a fireman. I don't know if anyone has been watching the Commons today but the backbenchers have been slaughtering the government. The rebels are not backing down. Sadly, this will probably all be in vain

Blair was fearful of up to 160+ MP's voting against foundation hospitals, however after months of talks and such with MP's he was able to pursuade them such that only around 65-67 voted against.

I do not think Blair is ignoring pressure groups as Thatcher did. Neither is he ignoring the will of much of Britain, I think Britain wants out society to be like this.

For example, the Telegraph, one of our most popular daily newspapers wrote that Britain would be better off economically with an unhealthy workforce. They argued that unhealthy populace keeps people in jobs such as the NHS. I won't bother to explain why this is wrong, its not even worth it, but I will if anyone wants.

I work in an NHS trust, a part that was of course sold off by the Thatcher government so we endure low wages, harder work and of course the overall result of our task is of far poorer quality than it was in the 70's.

I agree that NHS staff would likely not strike, I certainly would encourage them too though since it would be very effective. Nurses tend to read papers such as the Sun and so forth, which is rather dissimilar to I, and so I am sure they would not strike.

The saddest part is that Blair is going further down the Thatcherite path, leading us to a solely private health care system.

The Labour party can not get in if it follows any socialist path. In the 80's their policies to further nationalisation, remove private education and health care, to withdraw from the EU and Nato were extremely unpopular. In the Kinnock election Labour could have certainly won since poll tax forced over a million inner city voters to abstain, inner city of course generally Labour voters. In addition the Sun headline, 'if this man wins today may the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights' - or something to that effect it is suggested pursuaded over a million apathetic conservative voters to go out and make sure Major and not Kinnock got in.

We may as well just live our lives in Britain, nothing looks like it is going to change very soon. We can only hope the capitalist system destroys itself.


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:18 pm on May 8, 2003)

[mentalbunny]

I'm actually fucking crying. I didn't know the recent news, fucking wankers, fucking fucking ****s! I hope someone can salvage this before it's too late. I thought even the Tpries were opposing it! What the fuck is going on? Is there reliable news on it anywhere?

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:38 pm on May 8, 2003
I'm actually fucking crying. I didn't know the recent news, fucking wankers, fucking fucking ****s! I hope someone can salvage this before it's too late. I thought even the Tpries were opposing it! What the fuck is going on? Is there reliable news on it anywhere?


The traitors to this country should be executed; Blair and his entire cohort of poisinous, infectious, imperialist rats doing the bidding of Americans in our country.

this is the furthest step in PFI so far.

I'll explain what I know of foundation hospitals. Hospitals will now manage the entirety of their budget, they will be able to invest money in the stock market and so forth! Yes.... hospitals will be able to invest money in the stock market. In addition they will cut costs as much as possible to bring the largest rewards to the executives. They will be able to decide the salaries of doctors and nurses!!!!!!!!! This will create competition in the health sector; so fuck health, its all about profit now.

These foundation hospitals will still be given a certain amount of money by the government. This is precisely, 'hiving off' as the term was in the 80's, fortunately in the 80's they only dared do this to bodies such as the passport office, but remember in 94,95,96 whenever.... when there was an acute shortage in passports?

They are taking the first steps towards privatising the health service, who knows whether they can eventually go all the way.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:32 pm on May 8, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I also hear that governors of foundation hospitals will be able to higher or lower wages of their staff. Of course, this is unlike the system in regular NHS hopsitals.

I feel this may be the deciding factor for the fate of the NHS. How will NHS staff react to the fact that foundation hospital staff will be on HIGHER wages than them DESPITE apparently being NHS workers just like them.

mentalbunny, some Tories were opposed to the bill, but only because they thought it wasn't going far enough. I heard Mr. Duncan-Smith, wise man that he is, saying that Mr. Blair was being too moderate and backing down under pressure. Obviously, we all know that we cannot take Mr Duncan-Smith seriously, but I think this was the consensus amongst the Tory party. However, the rebellion just wasn't strong enough.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Sorry, Chairman Mao, I just realised you had already mentioned about the salaries.

Don't you think this could be the crucial factor? If the NHS workers realise this, and revolt, it could cause chaos. The whole thing stinks of privatisation. Once the hospitals are up and running, no doubt the system will stink of corruption. To think that our health service is going to become a business project for some fat Tory bastards sickens me. The public MUST put pressure on. The media MUST take a change. If only the tabloids would fucking print NEWS. This is so serious, yet they today had, I think, news from "I'm A Celebrity...Get Me Out Of Here" on the front page. The tabloids could be so crucial. If they turn, the masses turn. Just like you mentioned with the 97 election headline "If Labour wins today, will the last person out of Britain please turn out the lights". Also, in the 2001 election, the tabloids, I think the Mirror (maybe not), printed a picture of a boat, "The Toryanic" sinking with the headline "Time To Ditch The Captain". These things WORK. And if this massive scandal could get more tabloid press, the people would respond.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 11:35 pm on May 8, 2003
Sorry, Chairman Mao, I just realised you had already mentioned about the salaries.

Don't you think this could be the crucial factor? If the NHS workers realise this, and revolt, it could cause chaos. The whole thing stinks of privatisation. Once the hospitals are up and running, no doubt the system will stink of corruption. To think that our health service is going to become a business project for some fat Tory bastards sickens me. The public MUST put pressure on. The media MUST take a change. If only the tabloids would fucking print NEWS. This is so serious, yet they today had, I think, news from "I'm A Celebrity...Get Me Out Of Here" on the front page. The tabloids could be so crucial. If they turn, the masses turn. Just like you mentioned with the 97 election headline "If Labour wins today, will the last person out of Britain please turn out the lights". Also, in the 2001 election, the tabloids, I think the Mirror (maybe not), printed a picture of a boat, "The Toryanic" sinking with the headline "Time To Ditch The Captain". These things WORK. And if this massive scandal could get more tabloid press, the people would respond.

Also, The Sun's 'We're backing Blair' helped the 1997 election considerably. I think you are quite correct about the power of the tabloids. The only left-wing tabloid is The Mirror, however it is still run by big business and so its views are rather odd. You can never be sure what The Mirror will support and what it will be against. All other tabloids are right-wing, so I am sure they are backing foundation hospitals or at least saying the same as the Tories that it is not going far enough towards absolute privatisation of the Health Service. The Daily Mail, Express, News of The World and so on are even more right-wing, and then theres papers such as a Sport that don't even print news.

I hope there will be resistance, the most likely source as you say would be from NHS staff. I'll see if they're talking about it at work.

[mentalbunny]

Wel guys it's time we raise awareness. get your facts and get talking to people at school, at work. Seeb what they think, tell them what you think, what you predict. Get writing to newspapers, MP's, Unison, everyone you can think of who's relevant.

Also, if the government wants to save money they should stop using agencies for their hospital porters, cleaning staff, catering staff, etc. These agencies charge about £7 an hour and for example, give the cleaners 3 hours to do a 45 minute job, one that even can be done in half an hour! Of couse the actual workers only get about £4.10 or so an hour, but the government don't seem to care and the managers in these places are so removed from all this they don't know how they're being swindled (all that info comes from Polly Toynbee's excellent book "Hard Work" about life in Low-pay Britain).

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

At the moment, there is no chance that pupils will respond. And the reason is fair. Everyone aged 16 and up faces exams now! Understandably, they are fully focused on coursework and revision.

I think we must wait untill this bill is fully passed and up and running to see the effect it's going to have. Only then can there be a reaction.

Like we have said the, the key is media coverage. It can make or break the government on any issue, especially something like this.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:02 pm on May 9, 2003
Wel guys it's time we raise awareness. get your facts and get talking to people at school, at work. Seeb what they think, tell them what you think, what you predict. Get writing to newspapers, MP's, Unison, everyone you can think of who's relevant.

Also, if the government wants to save money they should stop using agencies for their hospital porters, cleaning staff, catering staff, etc. These agencies charge about £7 an hour and for example, give the cleaners 3 hours to do a 45 minute job, one that even can be done in half an hour! Of couse the actual workers only get about £4.10 or so an hour, but the government don't seem to care and the managers in these places are so removed from all this they don't know how they're being swindled (all that info comes from Polly Toynbee's excellent book "Hard Work" about life in Low-pay Britain).


I work for one of those agencies. You are correct Mentalbunny, as to what they pay. However, I can assure you, £7 an hour is not enough for the many single mothers or fathers with large families who work there, they have to work extremely long hours to make a living. I do not want higher wages, I am a Stalinist, so I do not care about wages, but these families should be provided for. The real fault of these agencies is not that they waste money on wages but that they do extremely poor quality jobs, and waste money elsewhere. They buy to much stock, there is too much beaurocracy in some areas, plus they have to pay their shareholders. My manager has a £500 coffee machine in their office.... In terms of quality, they used to have around 4 people cleaning a single ward, now they often only use one and sometimes one person for two wards, they used to steam clean everyday, to avoid the many infections that now plague hospitals and make patients have to stay in for months longer to treat illnesses they did not have when they came in. Now the hygiene of hospitals is far worse.

You are correct that sometimes people are paid to do 3 hour jobs when it will only take them 1 hour or so, this is because of the agencies insistence on 'flexibility' so sometimes you get 1 hour to do a 7 hour job, and sometimes 3 hours to do a 45 min job.... you see....

I dislike Polly Tonybee of course, I dislike all bourgeois journalists.

[mentalbunny]

Sorry CM, can I clarify?

I was saying the agency charges the NHS £7 an hour per worker.
The agency pays the actual worker only £4.10 or so.
The rest of the money goes to the borgeois managers in the agency.
The workers do not qualify to join Unison (public sector workers union).

I know the wages aren't important for you, I assume you are only supporting yourself. But when you have a family then you're in the shit on those wages.

I want all people who work in NHS hospitals, except maybe those who work in the newsagent kiosk type things, to be employed by the government. Right now it's a mess, all these different agencies making the NHS pay through the nose and supplying a feeble service. Without agencies porters could be more helpful for nurses and doctors, there wouldn't have to be different agencies for cleaning each bit of the hospital. There would be more security for the workers. There are so many benefits for having these people as NHS employees, so why doesn't the government realise it?!

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 2:24 pm on May 10, 2003
Sorry CM, can I clarify?

I was saying the agency charges the NHS £7 an hour per worker.
The agency pays the actual worker only £4.10 or so.
The rest of the money goes to the borgeois managers in the agency.
The workers do not qualify to join Unison (public sector workers union).

I know the wages aren't important for you, I assume you are only supporting yourself. But when you have a family then you're in the shit on those wages.

I want all people who work in NHS hospitals, except maybe those who work in the newsagent kiosk type things, to be employed by the government. Right now it's a mess, all these different agencies making the NHS pay through the nose and supplying a feeble service. Without agencies porters could be more helpful for nurses and doctors, there wouldn't have to be different agencies for cleaning each bit of the hospital. There would be more security for the workers. There are so many benefits for having these people as NHS employees, so why doesn't the government realise it?!

Thank you, I am sorry about that, I did not understand what you were saying. I get payed £4.75 an hour, no one get near £7 except on special hours such as sundays or bank holidays. I work in the South of the UK in one of the richest parts, I imagine people get payed less in the North. £7 for normal hours would be very sufficient. Apart from for single mothers, since there is no other person earning it is difficult even on such a wage as £7 an hour, that is why the government must provide for them exclusive of any wages.

I think everyone should be employed by the government. It is well known amongst public sector workers that once sold off the structures they worked in become more inefficient, but were able to make profits by giving workers a bad deal.

It is cheaper for the government to have agencies do the work since the agencies will but costs by neglecting workers.

My manager owns an expensive BMW, and I am wondering where they get that money, maybe it is from the Government paying the agency as you say.

The government at present do not care so much of the workers, and this is why they will not employ themselves.

[mentalbunny]

Where abouts do you live? I'm either near Guildford or in Canterbury so you might be sort of near me.

Well it's clear that the government doesn't have a clue about the situation, they're so obsessed with being flexible and what-not that they can't actually ensure people earn a living wage. I suggest you read Hard Work by Polly Toynbee.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 3:54 pm on May 10, 2003
Where abouts do you live? I'm either near Guildford or in Canterbury so you might be sort of near me.

Well it's clear that the government doesn't have a clue about the situation, they're so obsessed with being flexible and what-not that they can't actually ensure people earn a living wage. I suggest you read Hard Work by Polly Toynbee.

I live in Winchester. You live in a wealthy area too. I am 17 by the way, I work at the Royal Hampshire County Hospital on Saturday and Sunday. I work with a lot of adults with families who do have to support their families.

I have been to Guildford but not Canterbury. The south of England is a very nice place to live. I do not like Polly Toynbee's views, but maybe i'll have a look at that one.

The government's ideology is not particularly orientated around living standards of workers. They have followed the path Thatcher followed in the 80's.

[mentalbunny]

Will we ever succeed in undoing Thatcher's evilness?!!

Well hard Work is good because it shows what it's pretty much really like, and it's not nice. It gives you quite a shock, but you'll probably be more used to it.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 2:24 pm on May 10, 2003
Sorry CM, can I clarify?

There are so many benefits for having these people as NHS employees, so why doesn't the government realise it?!


Because business is business and such a structure wouldn't be so profitable.

This needs to be stopped somehow, that is what we're all trying to say. Otherwise our health will be the business project of some fat cat businessman

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 5:11 pm on May 10, 2003
Will we ever succeed in undoing Thatcher's evilness?!!

Well hard Work is good because it shows what it's pretty much really like, and it's not nice. It gives you quite a shock, but you'll probably be more used to it.


Not as long as we have a Prime Minister who admires Thatcher. We have no party that has sensible policies and certainly no leaders that do. Maybe things will change in the future, but not for a while yet.

Sounds like an interesting book then even if I do not like Polly Toynbee.

'Because business is business and such a structure wouldn't be so profitable.

This needs to be stopped somehow, that is what we're all trying to say. Otherwise our health will be the business project of some fat cat businessman'

It is such a difficult situation. So many public services have already become the projects of big businessmen. It is worrying to see one of our most resistant public services turn that way.

[mentalbunny]

Is there anything we can do to stop us becoming like the States?

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 2:41 pm on May 11, 2003
Is there anything we can do to stop us becoming like the States?

We've already gone some way towards being totally inundated with the imperialist culture. This country still has strong residual resistance against U.S. culture and politics. Masses of people in the UK would fight against it going all the way.

For us as individuals, there are cultural/political struggles to be fought against U.S. imperialism. You can fight but you'll never see much reward for it. I oppose U.S. imperialism and will my whole life, it is simple to do in the things you do and say. Other than that just live your life.