sexual assault v other forms of assault

[rioters bloc]

i'm curious. since it appears that a majority of members feel that sex is not inherently 'special', but just another physical act, do those same members also feel that sexual assault is not any 'worse' than say, beating someone up?

since most members feel that violence is necessary in a revolutionary context, does that also mean that they are prepared to rape class enemies (both male and female) if that happens to be the most convenient and effective tactic at the time?

disregarding issues of impregnation and sexually transmitted diseases.

[bcbm]

I don't think consensual sex is particularly special in and of itself (it can be and it can not be, it depends), but I definitely think any sort of forcing yourself unwantedly on another person and touching or raping them against their will is certainly more serious, especially in the case of rape.

[Dreckt]

if that happens to be the most convenient and effective tactic at the time?

How is rape a tactic? It is better to torture if you want information on something, since rape will most likely result in a traumatic experience for the victim, which is not "good" if you want to extract information.

Besides, if such things happen then the revolution will fail. People who are willing to rape their enemies will most likely do so again and again, even when the revolutionary society is intact.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 10:21 PM

if that happens to be the most convenient and effective tactic at the time?

How is rape a tactic? It is better to torture if you want information on something, since rape will most likely result in a traumatic experience for the victim, which is not "good" if you want to extract information.

Besides, if such things happen then the revolution will fail. People who are willing to rape their enemies will most likely do so again and again, even when the revolutionary society is intact.
rape is often a tactic used in warfare

check the 6th paragraph of this article i wrote if you're interested in seeing how:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50830

[bcbm]

Rape as a tactic in warfare seems aimed primarily at demoralizing civillian populations more than anything, I would think that wouldn't be neccessary in a revolutionary context.

[piet11111]

i consider rape a severe form of torture and as such its worse then a simple beating.

[RaiseYourVoice]

rape is something you use against people that are considerable weaker than yourself, it has nothing to do with any achievement its just for the fun of the one who does it (for whatever went wrong in his /her mind. why should we use force on people that are no danger to us? do we have to instate our ideology with force on civilians? no we have to destroy the system and as a logical consequence defeat those who defend it. whoever thinks about rape in terms of the revolution is a totaly crazy person.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by rioters [email protected] 17 2006, 03:38 AM
i'm curious. since it appears that a majority of members feel that sex is not inherently 'special', but just another physical act, do those same members also feel that sexual assault is not any 'worse' than say, beating someone up?

since most members feel that violence is necessary in a revolutionary context, does that also mean that they are prepared to rape class enemies (both male and female) if that happens to be the most convenient and effective tactic at the time?

disregarding issues of impregnation and sexually transmitted diseases.
The promotion of rape is reactionary. It is promoting the use of rape as something that is ok to do. THAT IS NOT OK. Rape serves no tactical purposes for revolutionary militias. We shall put down inssurection through arms, but spreading reactionary actions will defeat our efforts against it in our own communities.

[rioters bloc]

ok. screw the part about using it as a tactic in conflict.

simply as a societal crime - is it any different from other types of assault? and if so, why?

[TC]

I think this is a good thread in terms of pointing out the conceptual inconsistencies in the "sex is no different than any other physical act" that Vermont Left, LSD, and several others were advocating in the thread on prostitution, but taking the opposite position in the thread on pedophilia.

It seems like sex is nothing different than any other physical act when its convienet to people who want to justify sexual exploitation for their own reasons, but its something entirely different when it comes to other types of sexual exploitation.



The fact is that sex contact is psychologically different, more physicaly intimate so to speak, than other forms of physical contact, so unwanted sexual activity is felt to be more violating than other types of unwanted physical activity...and it also means that selling intimate sexual interactions feels more degrading than selling other types of physical interactions.

[Goatse]

Rape is much more mentally damaging than simply being beaten up.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Could some forms of physical abuse be as damaging as sexual abuse?

For example, a male could beat up his spouse so bad that she has to go into the hospital. From that she afriad to be close anyone ever again, much like sexual abuse, the victum is afriad to be close anyone ever again.

[Tekun]

A rather interesting subject...

IMO sexual assault is a tool used by men to empower themselves over a woman
And other forms of assault are almost always a reaction to a certain condition or state in which that person is in

A 'wife beater' is a man that is reacting to a certain event or condition (alcoholism)
He reacts in this manner because at some point in his life he saw a man beat up a woman for whatever reason, and no one told him otherwise
He might not have believed it was a good course to take, but in a rage of fury or desperation, his memory guided his actions
He never learned to respect women in his family, and this causes him to accept or approve the assault of women
I don't believe that sexism or patriarchy play a role in assault against women
The fact is that by striking and hurting another women much like men do to eachother, the person doing the striking does not see the subject of his cruelty as a woman, but rather as someone who has harmed him in some way shape or form
He reacts to this harm by harming the person who originally harmed him
I doubt that men who hit women contemplate and think about it for a long time b4 actually hitting a woman
Therez is not enough time for them to think, it all comes as a reaction to something that he feels threatening
Sex plays no role

However, sexual assault is the complete opposite
Most children never witness a rape
And usually the rapist is someone who attempts to regain his strength or 'manhood' by overpowering women and forcing them to take part in something that they refuse to do
Most serial rapists are men who are frustrated with their social lives, they're frustrated by the fact that women never seem to have interest in them
And as a result, they take it to commit sexual assault in order to take vengeance on those who harmed them
In addition, rapists contemplate what they're gonna do b4 actually committing it
Its a tool for empowerement, rather than a tool to satisfy their urges

[LSD]

i'm curious. since it appears that a majority of members feel that sex is not inherently 'special', but just another physical act, do those same members also feel that sexual assault is not any 'worse' than say, beating someone up?

You know, I agree with Tragic Clown that this is an interesting topic, although obviously not for the reasons she does. :P

I have never claimed that sexuality is "simple" nor denied that it has a complex psychogical component, especially in this society. Rather I have insisted that between consenting adults, sex can be nothing more than another physical act.

That doesn't mean it has to be though.

And when force is involved in any act it significantly changes the dynamic of it. When it comes to sexuality, coercing an individual against their will to engage in a sexual act of some sort removes their power over their own body and as such is more psychologically destructive than "simple assault".

That is, being "beaten up" is about external violence. One is subject to pain and trauma, but one is also relatively in control of oneself. In cases of sexual victimization, however, the perpetrator not only harms his victim, he also siezes power over her basic sexual freedom.

She is forced into a de facto action; forced to "give him pleasure" and is powerless over even her most basic of natural abilities. It doesn't matter that it's "sex" that's the issue, what matters is that her body is no longer in her own control.

After all, not all sexual assault has to involve the "private parts" or consist of "traditional" sex acts.

A man who strips a woman, ties her to a chair, and then beats her with a cane for days while he masturbates himself, is guilty of serious sexual assault. Her "intimate" sexual "parts", however, were uninvoled.

It's not the organs or the "act" itself that matters. It's rather the dehumanization itself that makes rape a more heinous crime than mere assault. It's the same reason that forced surgery is more atrocious than a bar fight; or forced abortion is considered so horrific.

You see, this is not a solely "sexual" issue! Sex happens to be the most common example of this kind of abuse, but the underlying issue is far less specific.

It should also be mentioned that rape is different to simple assault not only in the effects on the victim, but in the motivations of the assailant

Assault happens for all sorts of reasons, but overwhelmingly rape comes out of a sadistic desire to dominate and desstroy another person. It nescessitates a funamental disrespect for basic human rights and so those who commit it are far more dangerous that ordinary criminals.


The fact is that sex contact is psychologically different, more physicaly intimate so to speak, than other forms of physical contact, so unwanted sexual activity is felt to be more violating than other types of unwanted physical activity...

I really don't think that "intimacy" is the issue here.

Sure, most intimate relationships are also sexual, but a good deal of sexual relationships are not intimate. Is this "wrong"? Should people be "ashamed" of this? Perhaps more disturbingly, does your "intimacy" paradigm nescessitate that if one enjoys casual sex with anonymous partners, rape would no longer be "wrong"?

After all, if one does not consider sex particularly "intimate", your hypothesis doesn't lave any room for alternatives.

Obviously, that's not a viable theory, however; and accordingly, what makes rape particularly harmful cannot be how "intimate" one considers sex to be, but rather about the implicitly disenpowering nature of rape.

Again, unlike most other crimes, rape is about domination and dehumanization. It dissociates a person from their own body and removes their basic human rights.

The psychological harm that it will do has nothing to do with sex in and of itself; it rather relates to the horrific nature of powerlessness and violent compultion in any form.

Again, the victims of forced abortions or torture are often equally scared. It really doesn't matter whether the intent is sexual or not, forcing another person to submit their fundamental humanity to another's will is debiliting and horribly wrong.

That's really all there is to it.


and it also means that selling intimate sexual interactions feels more degrading than selling other types of physical interactions.

"Feels more degrading" to whom?

I'm sure that there are people who find selling sex to be wholly degrading and those people obviously shouldn't be prostitutes. But it is unfair to generalize that moral value system onto society in general.

A person who is strapped down against her will so that he liver can be forcibly removed is a victim of horrific abuse. She will be traumatized and psychologically scarred for a long time to come.

It is not a stretch to say that she has been severely violated by whoever did it to her.

But that does not make voluntary organ donation in any way wrong. Nor is there anything implicitly "degrading" in chosing to sell an organ (although there are healthcare reasons why that isn't a good idea).

Well, the same applies to sex.

The fact that sex is widely percieved to be "intimate" does not mean that people cannot freely chose to cede that intimacy without becoming any more "victimized" than any other worker in the capitalist system.

Rape is wrong because it takes away the power to control one's sexuality; to decide what should be "intimate" and what should not be. Prostitution, however, is all about control. Control over what one will do, with whom one will do it, and how much one will charge.

Are there abuses? Of course. That's the way that capitalism works after all and since prostitution is an "underground economy" in much of the world, there is no mechanism to report them -- the "black market" is always the worst one.

Prostitutes who work in safe and regulated environments, however, are no more "exploited" than any other worker. Sure, there are the occasional "horror stories"; but in what industry isn't there?

The point is that, while society has traditional socialized differently, sexual acts are not implicitly any different from any other act and so long as one has control over one's acts, be they sexual or otherwise, there really isn't a problem.

If you want to discuss prostitution further, I'd suggest that you post in the prostitution thread. This one is for discussing sexual assault. Something that I think I've, by this point, firmly established that prostitution is not.

[Rawthentic]

Rape, while being overwhelmingly being committed by males over females, is a show of male dominance that is a part of capitalism. Sometimes, it is the belief that man has the right to get some sex over women because she serves him, once again, a societal relationship under capitalism, and the root of actions such as rape

[VermontLeft]

It seems like sex is nothing different than any other physical act when its convienet to people who want to justify sexual exploitation for their own reasons, but its something entirely different when it comes to other types of sexual exploitation.

Are you implying that i have some reason to "justify" sexual exploitation? that im "sexuall exploiting" sometone and am trying to "justify" it?

sorry to spoil your personal attack fest, but I have never exploited anyone, sexually or otherwise, and I have absolutely no "personal reason" to want to make real exploitation OK.

it seems that you are pretty motivated to attack me though. maybe your having a hard time crossing that line that you tread. i mean for all your the "im not antisex", "i dont like radical feminism" talk, your still insisting that theres something "special" about sex.

you may not like dworkin-type feminism, but it loks like you two would get along great when it comes to "fighting' prostitituion.

I wonder what else you two would agree on? :o

the fact is if your going to accept that sex is a personal domain and that women have a valid sexuality and aright to do what they want with it, then you have to concede that that includes using it to make money.

and that there is nothing impliciotly "degrading" in chosing to use that particular wskill-set anymore than there is in any other capitalistic "profession".

Not to turn this into another prostitution thread :D (although you did start it :P :P)

rioters bloc as to your question, id say that while sex is not special, sexual assault is. cause, like LSD said, its a matter of dominating another person and forcing them to give up their basic rights.

so unlike simple beating (if there is such a thing :unsure:) rape or whatever requries an intimate contact and means the perversino of a pleasurable activity.

its not just assault, after all, its also sex and it fucks up a persons conception of their own sex after wards. it means that they associate their own sex drive with the attaack and become "alienated" from their own body.


Originally posted by LSD
That is, being "beaten up" is about external violence. One is subject to pain and trauma, but one is also relatively in control of oneself. In cases of sexual victimization, however, the perpetrator not only harms his victim, he also siezes power over her basic sexual freedom.

She is forced into a de facto action; forced to "give him pleasure" and is powerless over even her most basic of natural abilities. It doesn't matter that it's "sex" that's the issue, what matters is that her body is no longer in her own control.

rapists should be executed, straight out. :angry:

[Cheung Mo]

I have a female friend who contracted HIV at age 11 because she was raped by a Serb soldier at the time.

I'd say that's a helluvalot worse than beating the fuck out of someone.