MOVE

[EusebioScrib]

I'm a Philly native, where the whole MOVE bombing occured. There have been a few sporadic "support" or "ritual" bullshit things for the MOVE bombing in the city by "leftist" organizations. I don't get why.

If your a Marxist or anarchist who supports the MOVE group or philistines like Ramona Africa, lemme ask you something: Why?

[Hampton]

Why is Ramona Africa a philistine?

[EusebioScrib]

A philistine is someone who thinks their intelligent or right, but really their not. Ramona Africa thinks she's all leftist and intelligent when she goes around giving talks about the "tradgedy", but really she's a fucking idiot.

[Hampton]

A philistine is someone who lacks knowledge in a specific area, but I still don't get why you would call her that. She lived through the bombing and went to jail for several years and now is out and giving talks to explain what happened and trying to get the MOVE 9 and Mumia out of jail. Irregardless of what that you think about MOVE's politics I whould think someone would be hard pressed to people who support the dropping of a bomb on one house killing several children and arresting the survivors.

I don't get all the hate.

[EusebioScrib]

It's not just the bombing of any ole house. It's the bombing of a house of reactionaries. The parents all got what they deserved for exposing their children to such crap. It is a tragedy that so many of the children died. Of course better methods should have been used to rescue the children, but of course that wasn't their concern. But I don't care if the MOVE 9 rot in jail or not. They're just as much reactionaries as nazis are.


I don't get all the hate.

Call it what you want. But you wouldn't be saying that if I was refering to Nazis would you? Primmies are my enemies just as much as Nazis are. I only emphesize primmies more because many leftists think of them as allies.

[Raubleaux]

What the hell did MOVE ever do that warrants a comparison with the Nazis? I haven't read a great deal about them, but from what I understand their worst crime was believing in a bunch of muddle-headed "back to nature" stuff and being a public nuissance to their neighbors.

[Ander]

Can someone please tell me more about MOVE?

And aren't they also known as MOVE 9?

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 02:09 AM
A philistine is someone who thinks their intelligent or right, but really their not. Ramona Africa thinks she's all leftist and intelligent when she goes around giving talks about the "tradgedy", but really she's a fucking idiot.
Leaving aside you haven't provided a single example of what the fuck you're talking about, I don't know why her being an 'idiot' or not being an idiot has anything to do with it. She discusses an experience she lived through.

You'd think an anti-statist would be pretty supportive of her exposing the United Snakes of America for what it is.

There's this odd racial theme that keeps cropping up with RAAN supporters / members. There was the other person ranting about raparations as well. I hope RAAN can confirm that these people are only speaking an individual capacity.

What's with all the focus on race - specifically black nationalists - here lately on revleft?

[EusebioScrib]

What the hell did MOVE ever do that warrants a comparison with the Nazis? I haven't read a great deal about them, but from what I understand their worst crime was believing in a bunch of muddle-headed "back to nature" stuff and being a public nuissance to their neighbors.

She tries to rally support to primitivists, whom are no closer to leftists than Nazis are.

MOVE's "crimes" as I see it are 1. laching onto the left to try and pretend they are apart of the working class movement 2. exposing their children to such garbage and 3. annoying the local working class community because they wish to live in their own shit.


Leaving aside you haven't provided a single example of what the fuck you're talking about, I don't know why her being an 'idiot' or not being an idiot has anything to do with it. She discusses an experience she lived through.

Calling her a philistine is just an insult, I'm not trying to "prove" she's an idiot because that's a subjective issue. However, I'm merely trying to point out that MOVE has nothing to do with the working class movement.


You'd think an anti-statist would be pretty supportive of her exposing the United Snakes of America for what it is.

The US has put down reactionaries a number of times in it's history and leftists as well. Reactionaries are enemies of the US sometimes too.



There's this odd racial theme that keeps cropping up with RAAN supporters / members. There was the other person ranting about raparations as well. I hope RAAN can confirm that these people are only speaking an individual capacity.

A racial theme with RAAN? WTF? This arguement has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with her reactionary ideology. What other "rantings" are you talking about?


What's with all the focus on race - specifically black nationalists - here lately on revleft?

Look pal, your the only one who brought race into the issue. Before that this discussion had nothing to do with race. And I hope to leave it out, as it's off-topic as far as I'm concerned.

[Hampton]

However, I'm merely trying to point out that MOVE has nothing to do with the working class movement.

And you have done this by calling her an idiot? That really does not prove the point. Maybe this discussion would have been usefull decades ago when MOVE was a political force, they aren't now, so what's the point of attacking her? She is trying to get her brothers and sisters out of jail, are you against that?

They were unique to say the least and some may have seen their politics and lifestyles as "wacky" or "weird" but so what? Let them live the way they want and raise their children the way they want. What that does not do, however, is allow Frank Rizzo and the Ed Rendell, to drop a bomb on their house killing their children and arresting them. Somehow because it has happened before in United States history you think it does not make it a tragedy?


2. exposing their children to such garbage

This is subjective at best. They did not abuse their children, they fed and took care of them, and loved them, The police of Phil. were the ones that murdered them.


annoying the local working class community because they wish to live in their own shit.

Were MOVE not working class?


And aren't they also known as MOVE 9?

The MOVE 9 were members who were arrested at various times during the 70's and 80's.


It appeared that the MOVE people were vegetarians and ate their food raw because they believed raw food healthier for the body and the soul. They believed in letting orange peels, banana peels, and other organic refuse 'cycle' back into the earth. Composting? They did not believe in embalming dead people or burying them in caskets. They thought they should be allowed to 'cycle' back to the earth, too. They loved dogs (their leader, John Africa, was called 'The Dog Man' because he cared for so many) and never killed animals of any kind, not even rats (which infuriated their neighbors), because they believed in the sanctity of all life.

Hmmm.

Further: They refused to send their children to school, fearing drugs and an indoctrination into the sickness of American life. They taught them to enjoy 'natural' games, in the belief that games based on such figures as Darth Vader caused 'distortions' in the personalities of the young that inhibited healthy, spontaneous expression. They exercised religiously, running miles every day with their dogs, rarely had sit-down dinners, ate out of big sacks of food whenever they were hungry, owned no furniture except a few pieces they'd found on the street, and refused to let their children wear diapers because of the belief that a free bottom is healthier. They abhorred the use of plastic. They enjoyed, apparently, the use of verbal profanity, which they claimed lost any degree of profanity when placed next to atomic or nuclear weapons of any sort, which they considered really profane. They hated the police, who they claimed harassed them relentlessly (a shoot-out with police in 1978 resulted in the death of one officer and the imprisonment of several MOVE people). They occasionally self-righteously and disruptively harangued their neighbors, using bullhorns. They taught anyone who would listen that the US political and social system is corrupt to the core - and tried to be, themselves, a different tribe within it....

... the city officials and MOVE neighbors appeared to have one thing in common: a hatred of the way MOVE people chose to live. They didn't like the 'stench' of people who refused, because they believe chemicals cause cancer, to use deodorant; didn't like orange peels and watermelon rinds on the ground; didn't like all those 'naked' children running around with all that uncombed hair. They didn't appreciate the dogs and the rats. They thought the children should be in school and that the adults and children should eat cooked food; everybody should eat meat. They probably thought it low class that in order to make money MOVE people washed cars and shoveled snow. And appeared to enjoy it.

MOVE people were not middle class. Many of them were high-school dropouts. Many of them were mothers without husbands. Or young men who refused any inducement to 'fit in'. Yet they had the nerve to critique the system. To reject it and to set up, in place of its rules, guidelines for living that reflected their own beliefs.

The people of MOVE are proof that poor people, not just upper- and middle-class whites and blacks who become hippies, are capable of intelligently perceiving and analyzing American life, politically and socially, and of devising and attempting to follow a different - and, to them, better - way. But because they are poor and black, this is not acceptable behavior to middle-class whites and blacks who think all poor black people should be happy with jherri curls, mindless (and lying) TV shows, and Kentucky fried chicken.

This is not to condone the yelping of fifty to sixty dogs in the middle of the night, dogs MOVE people rescued from the streets (and probable subsequent torture in 'scientific' laboratories), fed, and permitted to sleep in their house. Nor to condone the bullhorn they used to air their neighbors' 'backwardness' or political transgressions, as apparently they had a bad habit of doing. From what I read, MOVE people were more fanatical than the average neighbors. I probably would not have been able to live next door to them for a day.

The question is: Did they deserve the harassment, abuse, and, finally, the vicious death other people's intolerance of their life style brought upon them?

Every bomb ever made falls on all of us.

And the answer is: No.

By Alice Walker (http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/MOVE-Alice-Walker1988.htm)

[Nachie]

That's a pretty good response from Hampton.

Scrib when I was in Philly I was reading whatever the last issue of the Defenestrator was and they had a pretty good article about MOVE and the events that led up to the bombing. I don't think they really analyzed the group's politics too much in that piece, they were primarily interested in just exploring how threats of violence from both sides had escalated over time and how to a certain degree, members of MOVE had not only not tried to defuse the situation, but were in a number of ways partially responsible for provoking an unwinnable violent confrontation through overt postures of armed struggle. T'was a good read.

[EusebioScrib]

so what's the point of attacking her? She is trying to get her brothers and sisters out of jail, are you against that?

Many leftists seem to see her as an ally. She tries to get us to support her jailed "family". Who cares? They're primitivists and are more reactionary then Fascists.


They were unique to say the least and some may have seen their politics and lifestyles as "wacky" or "weird" but so what?

It's not a matter of "lifestyle" it's a matter of ideology and how they attempt to latch onto the left and blacken our name like Leninists.


Let them live the way they want and raise their children the way they want.

If I can find the link I'll post it. Some of the children who survived were on a documentary and spoke quite frankly of how they hated living in the MOVE community. They were not allowed communication with other children, no education, no play, just "natural" games their parents allowed. The inside of the MOVE house was terrible, leaving their shit and garbage all around. I don't give a fuck if one lives like that, but when they don't give their child a choice, then that's when I have an issue. This brings up an interesting question of child liberation.


What that does not do, however, is allow Frank Rizzo and the Ed Rendell, to drop a bomb on their house killing their children and arresting them.

I never claimed they were allowed. I find it disgusting that they chose to use such methods knowing that there were children inside. However I realize that they didn't give a fuck. I believe the parents "got it coming" to them. The neighbors were the intial reason police were involved. The neighbors were tired of the rats, garbage, blow horns and all that nonsenseacle bullshit. The only tragedy is the death of the children and the fact that they were forced to live such a way. The parents, I'm rather happy they died.



Somehow because it has happened before in United States history you think it does not make it a tragedy?

No, I said because it happened to other reactionaries. Who cares?


This is subjective at best. They did not abuse their children, they fed and took care of them, and loved them, The police of Phil. were the ones that murdered them.

Subjective true, but it's the general opinion of any ordinary working class person you ask. Even that article yos u posted gives a good example of how they lived. I'd never tolerate anyone exposing their children to living like an animal. It's better for a child to grow up in Capitalism then in some jungle.


Were MOVE not working class?

They seperated themselves from the working class and disrupted the community and it pissed them off. MOVE originated from the working class, sure, but simply because you originate from somewhere doesn't mean you are tolerated by those members.


As far as the bombing goes, it is a tragedy that children died and that they were forced to spend their lives in a hell hole. I never supported the police or Rendell or Rizzo to bomb them, as they had children inside. However, if the children had been evacuated, then I'd have cheered them on, as I think most working class people would. However, they didn't give a fuck if the children lived or died. MOVE was a challenge to their power.

I however do admire MOVE as being a "dual power" sort of thing. They were successful in creating their "alternative" even though it was short lived. However the quality of their "alternative" is bitterly opposed to the working classes interests.

We have to learn a few things from MOVE 1. Don't seperate yourself from the working class when you become an alternative 2. Don't seperate yourself and children from society

The idea behind an alternative is that it is still apart of the system, but it is a new system, like a fetus.

As for the MOVE 9, it's the same people. They are not "our" political prisoners, so they don't deserve our support. I don't tolerate primitivists coming into the left trying to rally support.

[Hampton]

Many leftists seem to see her as an ally. She tries to get us to support her jailed "family". Who cares? They're primitivists and are more reactionary then Fascists.

So what if people choose to support them? Are you going to regulate that now? Mumia is in jail for the wrong reasons as are the rest of the 9 she wants to get them out, I support that and would not bu suprsied if many others do. See, some people are able to look beyong a label that people put on themselves, or in this case, what others throw on them and look at the individual in question. They did nothing wrong and will now spend the rest of their lives in jail, that is wrong. It is a suprise others do not support them.


It's not a matter of "lifestyle" it's a matter of ideology and how they attempt to latch onto the left and blacken our name like Leninists.

Have they recently attacked RAAN?


This brings up an interesting question of child liberation.

Yeah, let that child fend for themselves, rock on.


I believe the parents "got it coming" to them.

Again, what did MOVE do to deserve having a bomb dropped on their house? Having a dirty house? Using a loudspeaker? Not having the narrow ideology that you agree with? What a disgusting attitude to have. MOVE were not bothering you, I would be suprised if you were even alive when the bombing occured. And as I have said before, MOVE is pratically a dead issue why waste time and energy to attack and defame the names of people who were murdered some 20 years ago? What's the point?


The only tragedy is the death of the children and the fact that they were forced to live such a way. The parents, I'm rather happy they died.

Classy, very classy.


Subjective true, but it's the general opinion of any ordinary working class person you ask.

I'm pretty sure 99% of the working class have no idea who Ramone Africa is. Maybe in Philly, but hardly anywhere else. What's the point again?


I'd never tolerate anyone exposing their children to living like an animal. It's better for a child to grow up in Capitalism then in some jungle.

You'd never tolerate, big man, tough guy, go take those kids from their homes and parents. Get some other RAAN members or should I say member and take back the children from the care of MOVE. I'm sure you will have massive amounts of support. Oh wait, that was 20 years ago. And I'm sure they would never allow someone like yourself to tell them how to raise their kids.


However, if the children had been evacuated, then I'd have cheered them on, as I think most working class people would.As far as the bombing goes, it is a tragedy that children died and that they were forced to spend their lives in a hell hole. I never supported the police or Rendell or Rizzo to bomb them, as they had children inside. However, if the children had been evacuated, then I'd have cheered them on, as I think most working class people would. However, they didn't give a fuck if the children lived or died. MOVE was a challenge to their power.

Dumbass, the bomb dropped destroyed the whole block, think they would still support that? It baffles me to think that someone who cheer on the murder of a group of people because they choose to live a back to earth lifestyle, in other words, you whould cheer the police on because they had a diffrent way of life than you, and that is all it comes down to. Siding with the police? Cheerleading murder of innocent people who didn't use plastic?

The worst point of view to have is one of arrogance and thinking that you should and have the right to tell members of the left who they should and should not support. It is a disturbing idea to assume that you are totally right and others who are not what you label yourself as are wrong, which as it seems, is what you are doing when you attack MOVE because of their habits and life choices.

So what about the squatter who eats out of the garbage are they any better? Or the freegan who choices to pick through trash and doesn't shower, do they deserve to die?


MOVE originated from the working class, sure, but simply because you originate from somewhere doesn't mean you are tolerated by those members.

God forbid the working class kicks you out, where else is there to go?


As for the MOVE 9, it's the same people. They are not "our" political prisoners, so they don't deserve our support. I don't tolerate primitivists coming into the left trying to rally support.

The MOVE 9 are "our" political prisoners because they were murdered and oppressed for their politics. There lifestyle had something to do with it yes, and it is fine to disagree with it, but it is insane to find their deaths as something as a good thing because they were so-called primitivists. By cheering on their deaths as you are doing it lets those who did it get away with it. Which means that they will do it again, that you will allow them to do it again because the next person who is murdered for no good reason was not into your ideology. Those like Fred Hampton died for such reason, killed by the pigs, because of his politics, same as George Jackson and Bobby Hutton.

Do you hear people cheer their deaths? No because it is not considered popular by "the left" to do so, but cheer MOVE burning to death? Sure, why not. A bunch of filthy bllacks annoying their neighbors with a loud speaker, neighbors who apparently encompass the whole spectre of the working class from all over the world as it sounds why you say it.

They bothered "the working class", no they bothered their neighbors and the police. Where their neighbors working class, probally, do they speak for the whole of "the working class"? No.

But let's take a lok at MOVE's beliefs:

We believe in Natural Law, the government of self. Man-made laws are not really laws, because they don't apply equally to everyone and they contain exceptions and loopholes.

SELF DEFENSE
All living things instinctively defend themselves.

THE SYSTEM
We don't believe in this reform world system - the government, the military, industry and big business. They have historically abused, raped and bartered life for the sake of money. These rulers and policy makers don't care who they kill, enslave, cripple, poison or disease in their quest for money. They have made material wealth a priority over life.

MOVE'S WORK
MOVE's work is revolution. JOHN AFRICA's revolution, a revolution to stop man's system from imposing on life, to stop industry from poisoning the air, water, and soil and to put an end to the enslavement of all life. Our work is to show people how rotten and enslaving this system is and that the system is the cause of homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, alcoholism, racism, domestic abuse, AIDS, crime, war, all the problems of the world.

BEING A REVOLUTIONARY
Revolution starts with the individual. It starts with a person making a personal commitment to do what's right. You can't turn someone into a revolutionary by making them chant slogans or wave guns. To understand revolution, you must be sound. Revolution is not imposed upon another, it is kindled within them. A person can talk about revolution, but if they are still worshiping money, or putting drugs into their body, or beating their mate, they obviously haven't committed themselves to doing what's right. Revolution is not a philosophy, it is an activity.

THE DURATION OF THE STRUGGLE
We don't measure our success with reference to a calendar. As long as we do what's right, the only way things can turn out is right, regardless of time. We are not anxious or impatient and we will not compromise our principle for quick, temporary results.

What horrible people.

[YSR]

EusebioScrib: I can't see how you could possibly be correct here. I was totally unfamiliar with this group of this bombing before reading this thread, but I think there are some points jumping at me here.

First off, you call them primitivists. That's fine, they appear to agree with many ideas we'd refer to as primivist. But I can't see how this justifies their fate. While primivists are clearly not leftists, they're also not our enemies. You can argue they're misguided (as I will whenever you want) but I fail to see how they were such a threat to other working people.

Are you suggesting that by "disrupt[ing] the community" as you put it, in what appears to just be by being annoying and bad neighbors, these people deserve what they got? Are you for fucking real? Get serious: These people weren't fascists, capitalists, they weren't threatening ANYONE. They sound like they were terrible parents. Fine. But was there any other way to deal with the problem than violence?

[bayano]

firstly, as PC stalinism goes, the term philistine comes from a racist attack on an earlier version of the term palestinian. its a dumb word to use not only cuz its racist, but cuz its really dated

then, how the fuck are primitivists as fucked up as nazis? ive had both my share of conflicts with the weirdos, and my share of comrades who considered themselves such. while zerzan is fucked up and has defended even the kkk before, primitivists in general arent that fucked up

and you have yet to give any real analysis as to why the state was excused in carrying out ANY repression against MOVE. sure, i think theyre pretty cultish and weird, but theyre not the enemy. quite the contrary, they are one of a grand number of weird groups (primitivists as well) which had/s a confused response to oppression.

[Nachie]

Just for the record, I am deeply fascinated by MOVE and admire them in many ways. I don't get the whole primitivism-phobia thing, and I definitely don't get calling them primitivists. Seems like needless overreaction against comrades for the sake of proving a point. Also it should be clear that Scrib's comments do not represent RAAN as a body, and neither do mine.

There were absolutely some committed revolutionaries in that group, and I believe that it is essential to support the MOVE 9 as with all prisoners of the social war.

EDIT ADD: Some information about how to support MOVE prisoners (http://www.spiritoffreedom.org.uk/profiles/move.html)

[ahab]

Yea ok primitivists are crazy, but they dont deserve to die, especially they're kids, just cause they believe some crazy ideology doesnt give them a death sentence, now fascists and cappies are a different story :D although senseless murder is wrong, dropping a bomb on them is just cowardly, if they wanted them dead they shouldve asked for a fight.

[Hampton]

This topic was about MOVE not RAAN. Those posts dedicated to RAAN have been moved to a seperate thread in chit chat.

[Hampton]

This topic was about MOVE not RAAN. Those posts dedicated to RAAN have been moved to a seperate thread in chit chat.

[Hampton]

This topic was about MOVE not RAAN. Those posts dedicated to RAAN have been moved to a seperate thread in chit chat.

[Hiero]

EusebioScrib, are you trying to say the government should be allowed to crack down on who ever they want as long as they are not similar in ideology to your own ideology?

Seriously what is a major problem, MOVE taking power in the USA, or an oppressive prison system?

You really have to choose which side you belong to, are going to continue supporting imperialism and attacking small movements who have already been attacked by police and imprisoned unjustly. Or are you going to try to be a reasonable communist?

[EusebioScrib]

EusebioScrib, are you trying to say the government should be allowed to crack down on who ever they want as long as they are not similar in ideology to your own ideology?

Well, I don't care if the government cracks down on Nazis, do you? Every enemy of the US gov isn't our ally. Sometimes we have common enemies, like Fascists. I think primmies fall in line here as well.



Seriously what is a major problem, MOVE taking power in the USA, or an oppressive prison system?

The issue is that they are thought of as apart of the working class movement.



You really have to choose which side you belong to, are going to continue supporting imperialism and attacking small movements who have already been attacked by police and imprisoned unjustly. Or are you going to try to be a reasonable communist?

Are you going to try and contribute to the debate instead of being sensationalist?

Nazis have been attacked by police and been imprisoned. So what?

Their ideology is opposed to my class, I do not favor them in any regards. I don't care what happens to them, just as long as they don't have success or leech onto our movement.

[Hiero]

Well, I don't care if the government cracks down on Nazis, do you? Every enemy of the US gov isn't our ally. Sometimes we have common enemies, like Fascists. I think primmies fall in line here as well.


You totally miss the point here, your ignoring the cultural repercussions that occur. If we do not defend and give our support to the wrongfully jailed, then we are saying it is ok for the government to use such oppresion. Then when it comes to the government cracking down on anti-war movements, working class organisations and unions, it is already the norm. There will be no resistance to government suppresion, because opportunist like yourself never thought that this could happen to them.

Your taking a very opportunist line on this, and it is very disturbing that you support such pig activity. You could probally do somethign a little more constructive then supporting pig work against MOVE, like maybe see what working class movements are going on.


The issue is that they are thought of as apart of the working class movement.

By who? Other middle class groups? Definatly not the working class themselves.

[bayano]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:42 AM

Well, I don't care if the government cracks down on Nazis, do you? Every enemy of the US gov isn't our ally. Sometimes we have common enemies, like Fascists. I think primmies fall in line here as well.

You totally miss the point here, your ignoring the cultural repercussions that occur. If we do not defend and give our support to the wrongfully jailed, then we are saying it is ok for the government to use such oppresion. Then when it comes to the government cracking down on anti-war movements, working class organisations and unions, it is already the norm. There will be no resistance to government suppresion, because opportunist like yourself never thought that this could happen to them.
on a purely off-topic argumentative level, it is not the 'revolutionary left's job to defend free speech and basic civil liberties for all. the aclu and other such groups can do that all they want, but contradictions in the enemy's camp are a good thing, including when it is the state's repression of reactionaries (and i do not include MOVE in that category as my earlier posts might prove). their divisions are our strengths, and those divisions should be nurtured to rupture them further. this doesnt help us much if it isnt during a period of growth within leftist resistance movements, but that is our responsibility all the time.

and as to the argument "if we dont defend the liberties of the far-right and pedophiles, then the state will clamp down on us": bullshit. the state cut its teeth in most kinds of repression on workers and left movements. it already represses us with the greatest of gusto in contrast to the treatment of the far-right generally speaking. it is not our duty to defend even wrongfully convicted nazis, it is our duty to support wrongfully convicted workers, activists, and people of color in general.

but this is off-topic, lo siento