Will we work in communism?

[EusebioScrib]

It seems many leftists talk about the "glory" of the producer and how under communism work will be a "pleasure." But for the producers work isn't something to be "liberated", but rather something to be destroyed.

I just finished a pamphlet by Black and Red called Reproduction of Daily Life. It was a pamphlet of basic Marxist economics, surplus value, fetishism, reproduction etc. However the last few pages were very interesting. Read this:


In an imaginary society, people spend most of their time active time producing food and other necessities; only part of their time is "surplus time" in the sense that it is exempted from the production of necessities. This surplus activity may be devoted to the production of food for priests and warriors who do n ot themselves produce; it may be used up in the performance of ceremonies or gymnastic exercises. In any of these cases, the material conditions of these people are not likely to change, from one generation to another, as a result of their daily activities. However, one generation of people in this imaginary society may store their surplus time instead of using it up. For example, they m ay spend this surplus time winding up springs. The next generaiton may unwind the energy stored in the springs to perform necessary tasks, or may simply us the energy of the springs to wind new springs. In either case, the sotred surplus labor of the earlier generation will provide the new generation with a larger quantity of surplus working time. The new generation maye also store their surplus in springs and in other receptacles. In a relatively short period, the labor stored in teh springs will exceed the labor time available to any living generation; with the expenditure of relatively little energy, the people of this imaginary society will be able to harness the springs to most of thier necessary tasks, and also to the task of winding new springs for coming generations. Most of their living hours which they previously spent producing necessities will now be available for activities which are not dictated by necessity but projected by the imagination

This is a very insightful story. It tells us one thing. That the role of capitalism is to store human labor so that we don't have to work. Means of production are termed "dead labor" and are basically the labor of generations of humans utilized by other humans to produce value. However, capitalism is creating means of production which need less human labor. This is where the real crisis of capitalism begins. When there comes a point where the means of production need so little human labor behind them, that production of use-value becomes most practical.

In communism work won't exist as we know it today. Any work is basically maintaining and developing the means of production (to produce more for us and support larger populations). Our whole life will be doing things we want to do. In general, I believe our primary activities will be pleasure/enjoyment and becoming God. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=51213)

[BobKKKindle$]

I presume I am one of the leftists that you were referring to, since I posted comments of that nature several times. But we are essentially in agreement. You discuss how Capitalism allows for labour to be 'stored 'and accumulated for the future. I believe that the role of Capitalism is to allow for huge advances in the forces of production, so that the issue of scarcity and back-breaking labour can be overcome - essentially what you are saying, since all commodities are stores of labour value, and the means of production are special commodities. However, the relations of production that operate under Capitalism means that the full potential of this 'stored labour' or the Hugely-built up Forces of production cannot be fully realized in terms of satisfying Human needs, due to the unequal distribution of wealth. It seems you and I are simply using different terminology/angles.

As for your comments of leisure and work, I dont think that Enjoyment and Productivness are mutually exclusive. We Will still do work under Communism, in that we will still spend much of our time doing things that are productive for society, but the difference will be that these activities will be of one's own choosing, and will be done because theya re intrinsically enjoying for the individual, not for a wage. This links in with the 'becoming God' thread - when we have complete control over our lives and labour, we will leave behind the estrangement of Capitalism and progress on to.....something. I recall that one of the 'main points' of Communism is the liquidation of distincition between work and leisure - this is what I am getting at. For example - being a doctor is very productive and of great use to society. But it is all something that many people enjoy and get satisfaction from. Under Communism, everybody could be their own 'doctor' - they would have the freedom to choose the labour/work (though not as we know it) that they found most interesting.

Could you by any change link be to that Pamphlet comrade? it sounds really interesting.

[EusebioScrib]

Oh no, I wasn't singling anyone out. I was speaking in general. I was reading a thread and I saw someone refer to how "they will take the day off" for holidays and that sparked this thread.

I purchased the pamphlet from Autonomedia here is a link to it http://bookstore.autonomedia.org/index.php...products_id=199 (http://bookstore.autonomedia.org/index.php?main_page=pubs_product_book_info&cPath=16&products_id=199)
However I'm sure it is available somewhere online. Perhaps on libcom?

What you say about the doctor thing is very true. There will be forums of "work" which people will enjoy, but work will not exist as we know it. Machines will most likely be doing much of the work for us, we'll only do what we want to do because we enjoy it.

[LeninReborn]

People in a communist society will work for the state because the state owns everything. By helping the state, they are helping themselves. Scientists will research new ideas to benefit everyone, themselves included. Farmers will grow crops and rear animals to feed the workers in the city who provide the farmers with their tools. In the same way, the workers will produce commodities to help other members of society who will also contribute.

[Rawthentic]

Do you know what communism is? Its is a stateless, classless society. So no, the state wont own anything because there wont be a state. Also, there wont be the same distinction between farm and city as there is in capitalism. So farmers wont produce for other workers, but for themselves, and workers in the city wont produce tools that they wont use.

[EusebioScrib]

People in a communist society will work for the state because the state owns everything.

Kill yourself why you still can :P

[KC]

So farmers wont produce for other workers, but for themselves, and workers in the city wont produce tools that they wont use.

This is completely wrong. Workers won't be simply producing for themselves; they will be producing for society.

[BobKKKindle$]

Leninreborn, and hastalavictoria your arguments make no sense - indeed, you sound like a Capitalist. The reason why it is unfair for Capitalists to realise the value of commodities through ownership of the means of production is that all wealth is in fact socially created, and there is no such thing as an autnonomous individual or group in society - commodities are produced through the cumulative effots of many different people - not just those people who work in the factory itself - but also those who build the infrastructure to bring in the raw materials, and also those who produce the means of production required for the Capitalist to start an enterprise. For this reason, Socialists advocate the social ownership of the means of production - on the basis of workers councils, not with the help of any 'state'. And people will certainly not produce for themselves - that would be utterly absurd and impossible. That would mean that anyone who does not produce commodity 'A' has no way to acess commodity 'A', even if there is an acute need to so! And the 'motto' of Communism, as we all know, is 'each according to his abilities, each according to his needs'

[apathy maybe]

Will we work in communism? (Or any other classless stateless equalitarian and free society (i.e. anarchy)). Yes.

But! In the event that we do not have to worry about profit or even "making a living" work will be reduced to a minimum.

Actually, I think we need to define what work is, I see work as that which we do not want to do, but have to do anyway. Work is required.

In the future we will see an advent of machines doing more and more of what we call work, this coupled with the fact that we are doing less work anyway, leads to more leisure time.


Khayembii Communique: I assume that you mean that workers will be producing for themselves and then giving away to society? Do not workers 'own' their labour?

bobkindles: "to each according to vis abilities, from each according to vis needs". Do you accept that people might not want to work? Might want to be lazy for a bit? Does your interpretation of this include in the ability the desire?

Anarchy requires voluntariness, otherwise it does not succeed, you cannot force someone to work.


And on a different track, if community A desires or needs commodity X but does not or cannot produce it, but community B does, community B is not forced (except in a "moralistic" sense), to provide community A with that commodity. Sure they would probably would, but depending on the circumstances they might not.

[BobKKKindle$]

Apathy Maybe: I am sure that for a few days after the insurrection, we will simply spend time partying in the streets, handing out food and drink for free, and playing the internationale very loudly. Lazy, yeah, but Forgivable, as you will no doubt agree. Should be fun! ;)

For the first few months, even years, there will also be great disorganisation and chaos as we fundamentally change the mode and relations of production to be based on Human needs, not profits, and as we change the nature of work to be and end unto itself, not just merely a means to live, and as we delegate the day, or time that people are required to do non-enjoyable but socially necessary labour each week (working in agriuclture etc) This stage might involve the Dictatorship of the proletariat, whereby we defend the revolution from those determined to crush it. :angry:

But as for people being willing to work? I am confident that everyone has something that they will happily dedicate their lives to if they had the chance. But under Capitalism, we dont have the chance. Someone who looks like a simple assembly line worker may no doubt harness an inner desire to become a Historian, or a chemist! Socialism will allow people to concrntrate on the activities that they really find interesting, instead of being forced into meaningless and alienating labour. Capitlaists will point to the people on the dole - and say - this is what Socialism will be like. But the reason that these people live on Welfare is because labour under Capitalism is so fundamentally boring! Not because they want to dedicate their lives to watching Tv! it is often difficult to discuss this concept of 'new work' because work under Socialism will be so radically different from labour under Capitalism - For me, SOcialism will not mean less work and more leisure. Socialism will man Work = What you find fun. And Everyone likes doing stuff they find fun! :D That was rather rambling I am afraid.

[Rawthentic]

sorry for that, and thanks for the responses. I understand the concept now, no fucking need to call me a capitalist.