World War 2? [Archive]

Urban Rubble

8th May 2003, 06:56

I've always said, WW2 is one of the only wars we have ever been invloved with that I can support. What you have to ask is Capitalism or The Third Reich ? But, like others said, there were some parts we could have avoided.

I just watched this show on the history channel about the last mission of WW2. I had never heard about this so I'll type up a short summary.

Apparently (according to the History channel, so who really knows if it's true) immediatley after we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Emporer was ready to surrender. Remember, they didn't surrender for a few days. In Bushido (which the Japanese army practiced) surrender is a fate worse than death, so there was basically no way we were going to end the war without killing alot more people. The emporer had already sent the message to the Japanese people that they were to surrender, the war was over. Before this could go out on the air some high ranking japanese army officials decided they were not surrendering, they were going to stage a coup. So they surrounded the palace and stopped the message from going out. Because of all this we had to send a "shitload" of 5-29's to blast a few thousand more people.

I just thought was weird that I had never even heard about that, seems pretty major to me.

Severian

8th May 2003, 09:51

There were different aspects to WWII. There was the defense of the USSR against fascist invasion. There was the defense of China, a semicolonial country, against Japanese imperialism.

And there was a war for world domination between different imperialist countries.

Some of these imperialist countries had fascist political regimes. Some of them had bourgeois-democratic political regimes. But that's not what they were fighting for. They were fighting over which of them got to control the rest of the world. For example, the U.S. and Japan were fighting over which of them would get to control China. (As it turned out, the Chinese had their own opinion on that.)

Truthfully, the real reason that left orthodoxy supports the "Allies" in WWII has little to do with fascism vs. democracy either. It's because the U.S., Britain, etc. were allied with the USSR.

Prior to Hitler's invasion of the USSR, Communist Parties around the world did not support the "Allies." If anything, there was a pro-Axis lean due to the Stalin-Hitler pact.

oki

8th May 2003, 12:55

well the allied forces were aware of the holocaust allready long before they decided to attack,the only arguement you cna make is that they waited too long.and it was a fullscale war ,think dresden,atomic bombs,etc etc.but in the end hitler war 100 times worse,and he had to be stopped.one other thing,teh US didn't win the war,but stalin did.the hollywood idea of the US beating the nazi's is not really correct.

Dirty Jersey

8th May 2003, 18:15

and deservedly so i think. the russians lost like 50 times more soldiers and civilians than any place else. hollywood has never argued that the russians beat the us to berlin. i do think we helped by putting troops on a second and third front ie: italy and normandy. had there been no opposition in the west russia would have been fucked. the japanese would have attacked stalin from the east and the ussr wouldnt have lasted more than another year. read rise and fall of the third reich. its a long book but it explains that pretty well.

jjack

9th May 2003, 05:25

Dirty Jersey, I think it's the other way around. I think by the time the US got there, the Germans were beat. The Americans waited until it was nearly impossible to lose the European theater and then jumped in for the glory.

Although, to give credit where credit is due, you're right about Japan. The US almost singlehandedly defeated Japan in the Pacific. As you pointed out, the Japanese had control of much of eastern asia and could have created a "Soviet Sandwich" so to speak had they not been defeated by the Americans.

And the Maoists, of course! Can't forget the Maoists.

Dirty Jersey

9th May 2003, 05:45

i think no matter what we can all agree that the nazis were fools to open a second front. had they waited to finish off great britain first they could possibly have won the war.

American Kid

9th May 2003, 07:11

The Red Army crushed the Nazis. The US/Brits only invaded Europe when they knew the Soviets were going to defeat Hitler. The capitalists wanted to stop Soviet Union from expanding over the entire continent.

I think by the time the US got there, the Germans were beat. The Americans waited until it was nearly impossible to lose the European theater and then jumped in for the glory.

Those are two of the more ingorant, misinformed statements I've read around here in a while. In a looooong time.

If it wasn't for the United States' Lend-lease policies at the beginning of the war (I'm talking pre-Dec. 7th, 1941; before we'd even fired a single shot), both Chuchill and Stalin would've been fucked. Stalin was crying because we weren't helping enough.

Hit the books, boys. Seriously.
-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 12:15 pm on May 9, 2003)

Ian

9th May 2003, 07:29

In Antony Beevor's Stalingrad he talks at length on the faulty hardware Lend Lease provided the USSR, most of the equipment was jeeps and these were notoriously bad to crash in, drivers were almost always impaled by the steering wheel and suffered painful deaths behind the wheel.
This aid was much needed, yes, but Stalin and Churchill were fucked at that point in the war AK, Stalin more so. The aid helped them get out of the situation, but I doubt the aid would have been as much help as you assert

American Kid

9th May 2003, 07:40

Well Lend Lease is just a small factor in regards to how much aid we provided and/or how effective it was.

Listen, this is my point, I'm not saying the US won the war all on our own. I'm not saying that our Lend Lease policies were as much a deciding factor in winning the war as, say, the battle of Kursk, or, no doubt, Stalingrad.

But, we didn't sit in the fucking bleachers waving pom-poms in the air waiting until the dust cleared and the Soviets had done all the work to finally roll up our sleeaves and jump in. That's rediculous. As soon as Hitler invaded the USSR in 1940, Stalin was screaming for help. Just as much as Churchill was just as the V1's started slamming into greater London.

I wasn't trying to illuminate how much of a saving grace Lend-Lease was; I was just pointing out how in one small way sensitive and jjacks were ill-informed/educated.

-AK

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 07:40

Quote: from American Kid on 1:11 am on May 9, 2003] Stalin was crying because we weren't helping enough.

ROFL, when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, Stalin shifted the industry production to the east and waited for the winter. The USSR was producing far more tanks than either Germany or the US. Any help from the US was minimal at best.

1944 tank production statistics:
USSR: 29,000
Germany: 17,800
U$A: 17,500

Furthermore "American Kid", aren't you a capitalist?

American Kid

9th May 2003, 07:56

Your first paragraph is the historical equivalent of pumping one's fist at a monster truck show. You make it sound like a fucking Sylvester Stallone movie.

Again, hit the books.

As to your last statement: aren't I a cappie? Well......... aren't you a queer?

....................................Not too much fun is it? Being pegged. Wantonly and unfairly.

So check it out: Look at how many posts I have. Then do me a favor, look at how many you have and relax.

If you had any ability whatsoever to restrain yourself, you'd see that my argument has absolutely nothing to do with fucking capitalism. My disagreement with you was based soley on my opinion- based on History- that I felt you weren't speaking accurately. Which you weren't. Only someone with blindingly fundamental, tunnel vision-idealogies would fail to see this, then (predictably, like I knew, knew you were going to) proceed to turn it into an unwarranted cappie-witch hunt. Of which I've been the victim of by bigger and better than you.

And look who can still post whereever he wants.

You know why? Because I listen. And when I'm wrong, I don't resort to name-calling and black-listing. Which you oh-not-so-subtley have just attempted to do.

So, now that we've established that politics have nothing to do with this, let's try talking History, eh comrade?

Relax.

-AK

(sorry I called you a queer. Hopefully you got my point)

Relax

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:00

Quote: from American Kid on 1:40 am on May 9, 2003

I wasn't trying to illuminate how much of a saving grace Lend-Lease was; I was just pointing out how in one small way sensitive and jjacks were ill-informed/educated.
OMG, ROFLMAO! I'm sorry, but you are the one that is "uninformed", I just got done taking a class on Soviet history AND another class that covered World War 2 this semester (I got As in both classes). Both professors were annoying capitalists I might add (their bias was obvious), however, not even they made ridiculous claims about the US saving the USSR with the Lend-Lease program. LOL! In fact I remember my Soviet professor specifically saying that the Lend-Lease help to the USSR was basically a joke.

The US was focusing primarily on fighting their imperialist opponent Japan and supplying Britain. But the USSR never received that kind of support, and as it turned out, they didn't even needed it.

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:04

Quote: from American Kid on 1:56 am on May 9, 2003
Your first paragraph is the historical equivalent of pumping one's fist at a monster truck show. You make it sound like a fucking Sylvester Stallone movie.

Again, hit the books.

As to your last statement: aren't I a cappie? Well......... aren't you a queer?

....................................Not too much fun is it? Being pegged. Wantonly and unfairly.

So check it out: Look at how many posts I have. Then do me a favor, look at how many you have and relax.

If you had any ability whatsoever to restrain yourself, you'd see that my argument has absolutely nothing to do with fucking capitalism. My disagreement with you was based soley on my opinion- based on History- that I felt you weren't speaking accurately. Which you weren't. Only someone with blindingly fundamental, tunnel vision-idealogies would fail to see this, then (predictably, like I knew, knew you were going to) proceed to turn it into an unwarranted cappie-witch hunt. Of which I've been the victim of by bigger and better than you.

And look who can still post whereever he wants.

You know why? Because I listen. And when I'm wrong, I don't resort to name-calling and black-listing. Which you oh-not-so-subtley have just attempted to do.

So, now that we've established that politics have nothing to do with this, let's try talking History, eh comrade?

Relax.

-AK

(sorry I called you a queer. Hopefully you got my point)

Relax
Shrug, okay, so you're a homophobic capitalist? =P

Seriously, I just took two fucking classes on these topics, AND I am a history major. I know what I'm talking about!

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:05

not even they made ridiculous claims about the US saving the USSR with the Lend-Lease program.

That's funny, because, uh, neither did I.

I wasn't trying to illuminate how much of a saving grace Lend-Lease was

And... what the fuck is so funny?

(can't wait to hear the impressive display of titanic wit which shall be the response to that one)

Nice job, Aces.
-AK

Urban Rubble

9th May 2003, 08:06

I'm not going to debate right now because I'm drunk but I want to say one thing.

American Kid, do you actually think because you have more posts that you're superior ?

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:11

Seriously, I just took two fucking classes on these topics, AND I am a history major. I know what I'm talking about!

Seriously, I don't give a fuck!

Until you become a major in time travel, and you go back in time and change History, I'm gonna think you're full of shit.

When the Wermacht storm your borders and start kicking ass, you don't recline back in your wicker chair with your hands behind your head, smoking a stogie, telling your cabinet: "Dudes, chill, we're just gonna fall back to the East, make a couple tanks, and wait til it gets cold up in this *****. It's cool, brah."

The Soviets got by by the hair on their chinny-chin-chins. As did the rest of us.

-AK

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:12

Quote: from American Kid on 2:05 am on May 9, 2003
not even they made ridiculous claims about the US saving the USSR with the Lend-Lease program.

That's funny, because, uh, neither did I.

I wasn't trying to illuminate how much of a saving grace Lend-Lease was

And... what the fuck is so funny?

(can't wait to hear the impressive display of titanic wit which shall be the response to that one)

Nice job, Aces.
-AK
Remember this post?

Quote: from American Kid on 1:11 am on May 9, 2003
If it wasn't for the United States' Lend-lease policies at the beginning of the war (I'm talking pre-Dec. 7th, 1941; before we'd even fired a single shot), both Chuchill and Stalin would've been fucked. Stalin was crying because we weren't helping enough.

Hit the books, boys. Seriously.
-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 12:15 pm on May 9, 2003)

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:15

Quote: from American Kid on 2:11 am on May 9, 2003

Seriously, I don't give a fuck!
All you do is try to make personal attacks, and YOU are the one that can not change history to support your bogus claim that "Stalin would have been fucked without the US lend-lease program".

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:19

American Kid, do you actually think because you have more posts that you're superior ?

Yes.

NO.

Jesus Christ. God bless you, you're drunk. I don't think I'm superior to anyone at this site in any way.

Except Canikickit. Who's a scoundrel and a tax-cheat.

No, Jesus... Here's what it is:

I've been here for a year, and sometimes I still get insulted when people started throwing around cappie-bombs. In other words: if I was a "cappie" through and through, after all this time, would I be where I am? In this forum? I've had to put up with a lot of shit to enjoy the priveleges awarded me, which I'm very thankful for. I love this site. It's one of the only sites I go on regularly everyday. And I haven't put this much time in to be hurled vieled-threats by guys with less than 200 posts.

When he asked me "wasn't I a cappie?", did he think he was superior to me?

I don't believe I am superior to anyone at this site. Which is exactly why I'm still around. Think about it.

Fuck it. We're totally off the subject here.
-AK

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:23

LOL, are you SERIOUSLY attempting to prove something with post counts?

I've made about 10,000 posts on various forums over the last couple years!

Having a medium post count (of only 1,718 LOL) does not mean that you can make absurd claims that "Stalin would have been fucked without the pathetic US lend-lease program!"

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:25

As for asking whether or not you are a capitalist, how the fuck is that an insult? That was a serious question!

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:27

All you do is try to make personal attacks,

Oh my God...OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD.

Sensitive, seriously. Seriously. Would you just... relax? Yes, I made that post. I absolutely remember it. Because I made it. I am the author of it. I bore it. It is my child in a way. Througheth my finger tips 'twas brought into this wicked world. Absolutely. Slap the cuffs on. Thank you. Thank you.

Yes. I did it. I typed it.

And then, a post or two afterwards, I dropped this bomb:

Well Lend Lease is just a small factor in regards to how much aid we provided and/or how effective it was.

That one's mine too. I wrote it. With my fingers. First I thought it up, then I typed it.

With my fingers.

I FUCKING KNOW LEND-LEASE DIDN'T WIN THE WAR, ANYMORE THAN FUCKING ERNIE PYLE DID. LET'S MOVE ON. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THAT'S NOT THE FUCKING REASON I JUMPED IN THIS THREAD. I DO NOT LIVE AND BREATH THE LEND-LEASE POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES CIRCA 1939-1940. IT'S NOT MY LIFE'S PASSION. GET OFF IT! LET IT DIE!

My point was this: The United States of America did not sit on the fence and wait til it was safe to jump in the war. And no, I do not believe the USSR could have done it on it's own.

Now, that, I'll gladly debate with you for 100 pages if you want. And I promise to keep it clean (as, regardless of what you claim, I have thusfar) (I'm starting to see why you're called Sensitive) (wink).

So, there it is. Thank you.
-AK

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:29

Am I a capitalist?

No.

-AK

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:32

Quote: from American Kid on 2:27 am on May 9, 2003
All you do is try to make personal attacks,

Oh my God...OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD.

Sensitive, seriously. Seriously. Would you just... relax? Yes, I made that post. I absolutely remember it. Because I made it. I am the author of it. I bore it. It is my child in a way. Througheth my finger tips 'twas brought into this wicked world. Absolutely. Slap the cuffs on. Thank you. Thank you.

Yes. I did it. I typed it.

And then, a post or two afterwards, I dropped this bomb:

Well Lend Lease is just a small factor in regards to how much aid we provided and/or how effective it was.

That one's mine too. I wrote it. With my fingers. First I thought it up, then I typed it.

With my fingers.

I FUCKING KNOW LEND-LEASE DIDN'T WIN THE WAR, ANYMORE THAN FUCKING ERNIE PYLE DID. LET'S MOVE ON. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THAT'S NOT THE FUCKING REASON I JUMPED IN THIS THREAD. I DO NOT LIVE AND BREATH THE LEND-LEASE POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES CIRCA 1939-1940. IT'S NOT MY LIFE'S PASSION. GET OFF IT! LET IT DIE!

My point was this: The United States of America did not sit on the fence and wait til it was safe to jump in the war. And no, I do not believe the USSR could have done it on it's own.

Now, that, I'll gladly debate with you for 100 pages if you want. And I promise to keep it clean (as, regardless of what you claim, I have thusfar) (I'm starting to see why you're called Sensitive) (wink).

So, there it is. Thank you.
-AKLOL, you should "relax" too. Why, do you think I'm yelling at my fucking monitor when I type in caps? You're the only that has been overreacting the entire time. I have just been returning fire!

Stalin would not have been "fucked without the US lend-lease program". The "support" was a joke, like my capitalist professor said.

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:32

Having a medium post count (of only 1,718 LOL) does not mean that you can make absurd claims that "Stalin would have been fucked without the pathetic US lend-lease program!"

Seriously, that's driving me crazy, kid. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. Lend-lease lasted for like, 8 months or something. I know. I know. I know.

And also, am I a capitalist? Did you not see the fucking Trotsky quote? lol... ugh.

Sorry, I just flip out sometimes about that. I probably overreacted. My bad.
-AK

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:36

I feel bad because we've been lobbing salvos at each other for like, an hour over nothing.

Let's never speak of Lend-Lease again.

I don't know. Would you agree though, seriously, that it was a team effort? USA, Britain, USSR? Eh?
-AK

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:42

Quote: from American Kid on 2:32 am on May 9, 2003

And also, am I a capitalist? Did you not see the fucking Trotsky quote? lol... ugh.

Sorry, I just flip out sometimes about that. I probably overreacted. My bad.
-AK
Shrug, quoting Trotsky doesn't make you a Trotskyite. So are you a Trotskyist?

All I've seen is that you are "Apolitical New Englander", you could still be an apolitical CAPITALIST New Englander! =P

Quote: from American Kid on 2:36 am on May 9, 2003

I don't know. Would you agree though, seriously, that it was a team effort? USA, Britain, USSR? Eh?
-AKA team effort? Sure, the Soviets made the touchdown and the US/Brits kicked the PAT!

edit: pesky italics

(Edited by Sensitive at 2:44 am on May 9, 2003)

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:48

I love it. I love academia. This is exactly why I never want to go to college.

(before you go accusing me of being some peon, uneducated stooge, remember, you're a band-booster for the working class)

No, I'm not a Trostkyist. But I'm familiar with the man and admire him. Anyone who stood up to Stalin is rewarded with my respect.

Now, explain how the Soviets scored the touchdown and we kicked the extra point. Seriously.

No shrugging either, by the way. Ever seen Good Will Hunting? Remember when they go to Cambridge square and that prick with the long hair is playing darts and being a total asshole? You remind of that guy with your shrugging and LOL's. Seriously.

-AK

American Kid

9th May 2003, 08:49

lol, Yeah the italics weren't helping your Good-Will-Hunting-prick-academic cause any.

;)
-AK

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 08:57

Quote: from American Kid on 2:48 am on May 9, 2003
I love it. I love academia. This is exactly why I never want to go to college.

(before you go accusing me of being some peon, uneducated stooge, remember, you're a band-booster for the working class)

No, I'm not a Trostkyist. But I'm familiar with the man and admire him. Anyone who stood up to Stalin is rewarded with my respect.

Now, explain how the Soviets scored the touchdown and we kicked the extra point. Seriously.

No shrugging either, by the way. Ever seen Good Will Hunting? Remember when they go to Cambridge square and that prick with the long hair is playing darts and being a total asshole? You remind of that guy with your shrugging and LOL's. Seriously.

-AK
LOL, I don't think you're a peon, but you aren't a historian either. The Soviets won the ground war against the Nazis and it had nothing to do with the stupid US lend-lease program. They won at Stalingrad and then at Kursk (http://history.colstate.edu/Pate/john/kursk.htm). The Nazis were crushed by the Red Army.

Sensitive

9th May 2003, 09:00

Quote: from American Kid on 2:49 am on May 9, 2003
lol, Yeah the italics weren't helping your Good-Will-Hunting-prick-academic cause any.

;)
-AK
Shrug, being a history major doesn't mean I'm an "academic", I'm not going to teach at the bourgeois propaganda schools in this country. I don't know what I'm going to do after college.

American Kid

9th May 2003, 09:06

And let it be KNOWN on this date, the 9th of May in the year 2003 of our lord Jesus Christ, that American Kid DOES agree that he is not, in fact, an historian. And also that The Red Army did, in fact, kick some SERIOUS ass on the ground, including but not limited to, the battle of Kusk (whichfortheuninitiatedwasinfactthelargesttankbatt leinhistory).

-AK

(to paraphrase my good friend Jeffery, "I'm the nicest kid you'll ever meet, but I'm the biggest asshole."

Invader Zim

9th May 2003, 10:05

Quote: from Sensitive on 12:28 am on May 8, 2003
The Red Army crushed the Nazis. The US/Brits only invaded Europe when they knew the Soviets were going to defeat Hitler. The capitalists wanted to stop Soviet Union from expanding over the entire continent.

And here is a "fun fact" - George W Bush's grandfather invested heavily in Nazi corporations.

The red army crushed the Nazi's did they? Before France and GB had invaded...

Then how do you account for the fact that GB invaded before Russia was even in the war? Please dont just say that propagander here save it for those who like bullshit propaganda.

ChiTown Lady

9th May 2003, 10:27

I’m not sure if I understand this question. What exactly is at issue here?

Are you asking if it was justified that the US got involved in this war or are you asking if it was justified that this war started to begin with?

None of it was a pretty picture – from what the Nazi’s did to many people (to the Jews and many other - cuz it was certainly not only the Jews who sufferred at the hands of the Nazis) in their quest, nor was it a pretty picture what the US government did to the Japanese Americans as far as incarcerating them n concentration camps for many years as well as the nuclear bombs that the US dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki Japan, for which children are still being born today with birth defects.

None of it was a good thing – NONE of it.

No this was not a just war – not from any side of the issue, no matter how you try to argue the points.

Mass murder and destruction and crimes against humanity are NEVER just – no matter how you try to justify them in the end. It cannot be done – mass murder always equals genocide no matter who is doing it – and no matter what the underlying reasons are. There are never any reason good enough in my eyes to justify that magnitude of mass murder and mayhem form either side –and both sides were totally guilty of crimes against humanity by the end of that war, and NO these actions were NOT justfied by either side - in the end.

Please STOP working overtine here to try to justify mass muder and destruction against humanity - either way. This is specifically deplorable.

(Edited by ChiTown Lady at 4:29 am on May 9, 2003)

Vietnow

9th May 2003, 11:13

fact is: the us entered the war after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. as soon as the us gets hurt they start a revenge crusade on whatever country did it.

Urban Rubble

9th May 2003, 19:40

ChiTownLady, when the bomb is used to stop a force that was killing tons of people, I'd say it's justified.

American Kid

9th May 2003, 20:58

Now that's something to debate.

-AK

American Kid

9th May 2003, 21:07

Also, ChiTown Lady, your criticizms are well-taken and reasonable, but...what were we supposed to do?

It's hard to sovle problems diplomatically with a guy who's a racist facist, who's hobbies include genocide and the invasion of soveriegn countries for the better sake of his Lebensraum.

I mean, seriously. Ask Austria and/or (the former) Czechoslovakia how much of a good idea diplomacy (appease) was.

I'm no fan of shit like Dresden, but it was a war which...ugh, was necessary. Like it or not.

And it wasn't our idea.
-AK

Sabocat

9th May 2003, 21:11

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 11:56 am on May 8, 2003
I've always said, WW2 is one of the only wars we have ever been invloved with that I can support. What you have to ask is Capitalism or The Third Reich ? But, like others said, there were some parts we could have avoided.

I just watched this show on the history channel about the last mission of WW2. I had never heard about this so I'll type up a short summary.

Apparently (according to the History channel, so who really knows if it's true) immediatley after we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Emporer was ready to surrender. Remember, they didn't surrender for a few days. In Bushido (which the Japanese army practiced) surrender is a fate worse than death, so there was basically no way we were going to end the war without killing alot more people. The emporer had already sent the message to the Japanese people that they were to surrender, the war was over. Before this could go out on the air some high ranking japanese army officials decided they were not surrendering, they were going to stage a coup. So they surrounded the palace and stopped the message from going out. Because of all this we had to send a "shitload" of 5-29's to blast a few thousand more people.

I just thought was weird that I had never even heard about that, seems pretty major to me.

Take most of what you hear on the history channel for what it is. Sanitized revisionist history.

The Japanese had been trying to surrender for almost a year before the dropping of the bomb. The only thing that held it up, was that they wanted to keep the emperor (who is a religious figure in Japan) in place. That was the only condition that they were asking for in the surrender.

The U$ had fire bombed the absolute shit out of Tokyo. There was no point of dropping the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima except....

The two bombs were different. One was a plutonium bomb, one was a uranium bomb. The U$ desparately wanted to use the bombs that they had invested so much in. It was more of a science experiment to them really. They wanted to see the effects of both bombs. Truman was on a slippery slope. He had put the wheels in motion, and there was no way he could stop it. Apparently in their lust to drop them, they even killed some U$ P.O.W.s.

The U$ used these bombs to put Russia and the rest of the world on notice that they had it and the will to use it.

I also don't think that there were "shitloads" of B-29's. I think it was only 2. One for each. Maybe someone here can clear that up. I can't remember.

Kapitan Andrey

11th May 2003, 03:33

I can tell you one clever thing:

[b]"The war was inevitable!!!"[b]

FabFabian

15th May 2003, 07:40

There are only two things that are inevitable : Death and Taxes.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the end justifies the means.. I don't buy that load of crap.

As far as WW2 is concerned, there is a belief out there that if only the rest of the world had taken more of an interest in the Spanish Civil War and the fight against fascism there, could WW2 have been avoided.

If the Western powers had followed Keynes advice to not follow through with the humiliating punishment for Germany in the Treaty of Versailles, there would be one less reason for a Hitler to develop and thrive.

Like the saying goes, the is more than one way to skin a cat, so too is there many a way to avoid war or at least minimalize it. We can all delude ourselves into thinking that it was a just war, but was it really done because Hitler was being nasty to a few groups he didn't like? Noone did much when he invaded countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. No, he was asked politely to knock it off. The wealthy elites in Europe didn't have a problem Hitler, after all he was against all those nasty lefties who wanted to deprive the rich of their wealth. And where was the U.S. in all of this? Practising isolationism. Sure that Hitler is a queer looking fella with a temper as all get out, but that is Europe and we hear those people don't take baths and such.

We only have to look at the present situation in Iraq and say to ourselves, "Who is the real threat in the world today and what are we going to do about it?"

Urban Rubble

15th May 2003, 18:57

Disgustipated, yes there were "shitloads" of B-29's. The 2 you mention are the 2 that flew extra far or something but the fleet was at least 50 if not 100.

Where you get this "Japan was trying to surrender for a year" stuff I don't know. I think asking to keep an emporer in place who went to war for Facism is an unreasonable request. Am I wrong ? Should we have left the facist is place ? I don't see that being very reasonable, but that's just me.

I know saying that dropping the A-bomb was justified sounds horrible, but I think it was, here's why. The U.S forces had basically won the war, the thing is, the Japanese weren't surrendering, they follow Bushido which tells them to fight to the death, surrender is not an option. It would have taken ALOT of time and blood to go in and kill/capture every remaining Japanese soldier. Keep in mind that the final Japanese troops STILL didn't surrender until over a month after we dropped the bombs and they officialy surrender.

As for the History Channel, I know it's all sanitized and biased, I still like it.

Dhul Fiqar

17th May 2003, 17:49

I think everyone agrees the war would have been lost very quickly without the Soviets. Without American support, it would still have been won because the back of the Blitzkrieg offensive was all but broken in Eastern Europe, however...

I personally believe (and this is just speculation like everything else we can say about possible outcomes) that it would have cost far many more lives. The campaign would have dragged on for several more years, the German territories gradually shrinking, they would eventually gather and fortify their forces in areas around Germany and make some sort of final stand (or disarmament agreement maybe) sometime before 1950.

However, this would probably mean tens of millions more lives, so the American intervention was most definitely a good thing. Yet it was nowhere near as crucial as the Soviet role in the war.

Now, reading back a few pages I haven't seen American Kid suggest anything else than what I outlined above, with the exception that he thinks the war would have been lost without America's involvement, I respectfully disagree with that assesment and am almost certain that it is wholly false based on the momentum and production capabilities of the German campaign. I'm no historian, but there was a turning point and it was in Russia.
However, it seems much of this thread has been about people shouting at him that the Russians made more of a contribution to the war effort than the Americans did. Yet I've not seem him dispute this once...

Let's put the knee jerk reactions aside and look at the facts, the American assistance was EXTREMELY useful when it came, even though it probably wasn't vital and the U.S. could certainly have done a lot more and a lot sooner. At the same time the Soviets kicked all kinds of ass, lost something like 30 million men and put Hitler's campaign in disarray.

As far as I can see, all of us here agree on these basic facts, so what the hell is the argument about?

--- G.