How could we have taken out Saddam ? - Without pissing every

[Urban Rubble]

I was thinking, the ways we went about taking Saddam out were fucked up, how could we have done it differently ?

It's no secret Saddam is a sick peice of shit with many paralells to Hitler. He kept videos of people being tortured and murdered, women being raped in front of their familys and worse. In my opinion I have no doubts that he needed to be taken out of power. I'm sure most of you will agree.

What I'm wondering is, how could we have taken this imperialist murderer out of power without killing all these civilians and basically just pissing everyone off ?

[The Muckraker]

We actually worked against the people of Iraq through the sanctions, which kept them dependent on Hussein for the distribution of food. The Phillipines and Indonesia are examples of places where the people were able to change corrupt governments, but thanks to the sanctions the US demanded, the people of Iraq had no such opportunity.

While few will miss Hussein, the fact that he was deposed was only incidental to the real US mission as set forth by the PNAC and other neo-cons.

The Muckraker

[Sensitive]

We? Who do you mean?

Via the sanctions the US ruling-class killed 1 - 1.5 million Iraqis over the past 12 years.

[jjack]

The US should have let the people of Iraq take care of Saddam themselves. They are more than capable of taking care of themselves. They are no strangers to revolutionary struggle, nor are they too ignorant and irresponsible to handle the responsibilities of shaping their own destinies. To say that they need us to "liberate" them is simply arrogant.

[Comrade H]

Perhaps the best way would have been to infiltrate and equip the Iraqi Soscialsit underground, and assist them with airpower during the conflict, and medical and economic aid after Saddam had been toppled, and immediately welcoming Iraq back into the international community. Of course, this way doesn't guarantee a democratic Iraq, but it' would hopefully be better than Saddam.....and if not, we do the same again!! I think it's stupid however, to dream that any war can now be fought without cilvilian casualties

[mentalbunny]

Wise words, Comrade H. In fact didn't the US and/or UK say they would support an Iraqi uprising but in the end didn't and the uprising was squashed? Maybe I've got it all wrong, can someone reassure me if that's right? Anyway a supported uprising of the people of Iraq qould have been the best way, rather than the biggest bully in the playground and his best mate going in and destroying things.

[The Muckraker]

mentalbunny,

You are exactly right, and that could very well be one of the many reasons why the Iraqis don't really trust the US now. After having been lied to and then suffering through sanctions, it's not hard to understand why many Iraqis wouldn't believe what Bush is selling.

[Sandanista]

we could have lifted the sanctions and armed an iraqi peoples militia, educated them in the ways of marxism and we could have had our first proper socialist state.

[jjack]

Mentalbunny,

In the first gulf war president Bush went on TV and tried to rally an uprising. A lot of Iraqis immediately went for it without much of a backup plan, thinking that the US military would support them. Then, of course, they didn't get the kind of support they were told they would, which left them in kind of a precarious position and in the end they were all killed.

Another thing I didn't like about it was the lack of an international element to all this. Because the United States "went it alone," Iraqi society will become tied into the US, much the way Cuba was in the first half of the 20th century. From here on out, it's going to be "Shut up and do what you're told or we won't rebuild your country." This is one of the things Che warned about in his years as an economist in the Cuban government.

I think UN Peacekeepers should enter Iraq and US forces should withdraw immediately. Then the UN should facilitate the Iraqis while they set up their own government. That's assuming, of course, the UN will act as more than a rubber stamp for George W.

[Severian]

Quote: from Sensitive on 7:17 am on May 7, 2003
We? Who do you mean?


Yes, exactly.

Anyone who asks how "our" exploiters could have more efficiently achieved their goal of removing Hussein and replacing him with a U.S. puppet regime....which side are you on?

Even if it's by arming Iraqi groups to do it, you're still looking to Washington to solve the world's problems.

Hussein is just a two-bit thug, the main problem is U.S. imperialism.

The question is, how can we remove U.S. imperialism, not how could U.S. imperialism remove Saddam.

And actually, I don't think there's any other way THEY could have done it. They tried other methods for 12 years, and couldn't take control of Iraq otherwise.

[Republican Guard]

Quote: from Sensitive on 7:17 am on May 7, 2003
We? Who do you mean?
The question is, how can we remove U.S. imperialism, not how could U.S. imperialism remove Saddam.


I agree 100%. Saddam was in fact a brutal despot. Then again, he pales in comparison to the Saudi Family (whom I hope are going to hell sometime soon), several African leaders, South American regimes, etc. Do not all the citizens of these other countries deserve to be "freed from oppression by the loving wings of the American Eagle?" [read: blown to bits by raytheon and boeing]. No, they're not valuable enough, tactically, strategically or monetarily.

This was nothing but pure bullshit. Fuck America.



And actually, I don't think there's any other way THEY could have done it. They tried other methods for 12 years, and couldn't take control of Iraq otherwise.

They didn't try to do shit, besides starving the children of Iraq. Che would have tried.

Hate to quote him again, but....

"Let me say, with the risk of appearing ridiculous, that the true revolutionary is guided by strong feelings of love."

...

s.

(Edited by Republican Guard at 3:52 pm on May 7, 2003)

[Urban Rubble]

O.K, first off, stop jumping on me because I said "we". I am an American, just because I said "we" refering to my country doesn't mean I am any way patriotic towards this country. I love my country but I fucking hate the people who run it and for that matter alot of the people's attitudes.

Secondly, Severian, did you actually just say Saddam was a two bit thug ? I'm sorry but a world leader who has tortured and murdered thousands of people doesn't exactly qualify for that title. We are all against the U.S, but acting as if someone like Hussein "isn't that big of a deal" is pure bullshit.

To Jjack who said that the Iraqi's should have been left to their own devices to overthrow Saddam, I don't even know what to say about that. What are they going to do ? Build guns out of rocks and dirt ? For a revolution to succeed you need money and/or weapons, at the very least. The Iraqi's have neither.

Sorry for all the *****ing. ComradeH, thank you, I never thought of that (I don't know why). I'm not sure there would be too many people who would choose to arm the Iraqi Socialists, but still, we (or someone else) could form an underground Iraqi exile group, much like we did with Cuba in the 60's. That would've been cool, but of course that would never happen, not nearly as profitable.

[Republican Guard]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 6:33 am on May 8, 2003

To Jjack who said that the Iraqi's should have been left to their own devices to overthrow Saddam, I don't even know what to say about that. What are they going to do ? Build guns out of rocks and dirt ? For a revolution to succeed you need money and/or weapons, at the very least. The Iraqi's have neither.


More CNN-bait I see, painting Iraqis as "poor, innocent, desolate people who need a hand from someone else to do anything. Your country may have the technology to crush the world, but there are still those willing to put their lives on the line to save it. David and Goliath.

Let me tell you something. Every house I've been to in Baghdad has a firearm. And unlike most Americans, they learn how to properly operate, clean, and secure it.

My 16 year old cousin wasn't even in the Fedayeen Saddam, and knows how to operate an RPG... can hit a junkyard car 300m away.

Her name is Salma.

s.

[Urban Rubble]

Let me ask you this then, if they are so capable of their own revolution why did they sit, inactive (nearly) for 30 years while this guy fucked them continually ? Are you going to try and claim that the Iraqi's wanted him in power next ?

[Republican Guard]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 1:59 am on May 8, 2003
Let me ask you this then, if they are so capable of their own revolution why did they sit, inactive (nearly) for 30 years while this guy fucked them continually ? Are you going to try and claim that the Iraqi's wanted him in power next ?

Until the Iran-Iraq war, yes. In the 60s and 70s Iraq prospered many times more than any other Arab country. Saddam won UN prizes for literacy and education. Baghdad was starting to rediscover its role as the center of not only Iraq, but the arab world in general.

That's why many, many Iraqis today - especially the older ones who remember his prosperous days before he went batshit - are reluctant to paint him as the devil and blame him for their suffering, instead directing their hate towards the US. They then turn a blind eye to Saddams' atrocities.


"Are you saying that it was US troops who initiated the plundering?'

"Absolutely. The lack of jubilant scenes meant that the American troops needed pictures of Iraqis who in different ways demonstrated hatred for Saddam's regime."

"The people pulled down a large statue of Saddam?"

"Did they? It was an American tank that did that, right beside the hotel where all the journalists stay. Until lunchtime on April 9, I did not see one destroyed Saddam portrait. If people had wanted to pull down statues they could have taken down some of the small ones without any help from American tanks. If it had been a political upheaval, the people would have pulled down statues first and then plundered."

Iraqis are smart enough to pick the lesser of two evils. IMHO, Saddam was the lesser of two evils compared to occupation and annexation by the US.

The people who most desperately need liberating are the Americans.

[mentalbunny]

The people who most desperately need liberating are the Americans.

Perfectly put, RG. However right now this is only a dream and we have to concentrate on freeing the world from US imperialism before we can help those in the US itself.

[Urban Rubble]

I personally think Gerorge Bush is more stupid than evil, but whatever.

So basically Republican Guard, you're saying that Saddam was o.k. because Iraq was somewhat prosperous ? The U.S is prosperous and we all hate GWB, right ? You're trying to excuse Saddam because Iraq was wealthy ? That's the most hypocritcal thing I've ever heard.

[Republican Guard]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 7:27 pm on May 8, 2003
I personally think Gerorge Bush is more stupid than evil, but whatever.

So basically Republican Guard, you're saying that Saddam was o.k. because Iraq was somewhat prosperous ? The U.S is prosperous and we all hate GWB, right ? You're trying to excuse Saddam because Iraq was wealthy ? That's the most hypocritcal thing I've ever heard.

Again, please don't skip any words when reading my posts. I know it can go much faster if you only read every 5th word, but you just might miss out on the full meaning of what I'm trying to say.

I never said "Saddam was ok". I am the first to acknowledge that he was atrocious, brutal, power-hungry, and often just pure insane / evil. My *point* was that he wasn't *always* like that - at least not to that extent. Something changed in him before the Iran - Iraq war, and it just went downhill from there. What I was *trying* to say was that for many Iraqis, old allegiances die hard, and they were fooled and blinded enough to keep on following him, and many did - to their death.

There wasn't any "excuse for Saddam" as you say in my post.

And if the U.S. is prosperous, I think we can all agree that GWB didn't have much do to with that. In fact, *despite* him the US is still doing ok though. But for how long?

s.




(Edited by Republican Guard at 2:05 pm on May 9, 2003)

[mentalbunny]

RG, you are really on form!

I think that G Bush Jnr is not actually as stupid as we all make out, and his advisers are pretty good at their jobs, although no good for the people of the US.

Essentially now is the time to put pressure on World leaders and get them to sort out Iraq and all the messes, not to look back and talk about what-if's. They can possibly help in the future, if we analyse them properly, but we're not really getting anywhere here, are we?