English only at Philly cheesesteak joint

[Vladislav]

PHILADELPHIA - Bistec con queso? Not at Geno's Steaks.

An English-only ordering policy has thrust one of Philadelphia's best-known cheesesteak joints into the national immigration debate.

Situated in a South Philadelphia immigrant neighborhood, Geno's — which together with its chief rival, Pat's King of Steaks, forms the epicenter of an area described as "ground zero for cheesesteaks" — has posted small signs telling customers, "This Is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING `SPEAK ENGLISH.'"

"They don't know how lucky they are. All we're asking them to do is learn the English language," said Geno's owner Joseph Vento, 66. "We're out to help these people, but they've got to help themselves, too."

Vento, whose grandparents struggled to learn English after immigrating from Sicily in the 1920s, said he posted the sign about six months ago amid concerns over immigration reform and the increasing number of customers who could not order in English when they wanted Philly's gooey, greasy specialty — fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions.

Of course, it's not as if native Philadelphians speak the King's English either. A Philadelphian might order a cheesesteak by saying something like, "Yo, gimme a cheesesteak wit, will youse?" ("Wit," or "with," means with fried onions.) To which the counterman might reply: "Youse want fries widdat?"

The traditionally Italian community near Geno's has become more diverse over the decades. Immigrants from Asia and Latin America have moved in, joining longtime residents and young professionals seeking reasonably priced rowhouses. In the past 10 years, an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 Mexican immigrants — many of them here illegally, community leaders say — have settled in South Philly.

Vento said his staff is glad to help non-native speakers order in English and has never turned someone away because of a language barrier.

But the policy has "really upset a lot of a people," said Brad Baldia of Day Without An Immigrant, a coalition of immigrant groups. "For some people, I think we're just going to say, `Le gusta Pat's.'"

Juntos, a Hispanic neighborhood organization, said it plans to send people to Geno's to try to order in Spanish and may pursue court action, depending on what happens.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060608/ap_on_...ly_cheesesteaks (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060608/ap_on_re_us/english_only_cheesesteaks)


So you cappies think this is fair?

[overlord]

What, that someone should have to understand a little English in a majority English speaking country? How horrible. Reminds me a little of the tortures of Alschuwitz.

[Janus]

To be fair, it is an immigrant community so it applies mainly to the older folk who have not learned to speak English. What's the problem with speaking a different language as long as the worker there can understand it?

[theraven]

and if they can't?

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 08:06 AM
What, that someone should have to understand a little English in a majority English speaking country? How horrible. Reminds me a little of the tortures of Alschuwitz.
What about tourists who want a philly cheesesteak? I'd imagine most americans who visit Russia wouldn't be able to read a sign that says "Вы должны говорить по-русски, чтобы заказать"...why should you expect a Russian to read the same thing in English?

Futhermore, he has a sign outdoors that says "you have to speak english to order" (or something like that). The entire concept is self-defeating, because if they can understand the sign, then they obviously understand enough english to order in english.

What's so bad about ordering in the language that's most comfortable for you anyway? As long as the waiter can understand you, I fail to see why people can't be free to speak spanish or italian or any other language in a restaraunt.

[RedAnarchist]

Wait a minute? They speak English in America? :blink:

[PRC-UTE]

His little sign makes him feel like a big man. What a langer.

[Raisa]

Clown penis anarchy I am inpressed at your russian, that really does say "you got to speak in russian so that you can order"

I dont think the mans concept is wrong.
Some places know how to decypher orders in other languages or have bilingual people who know, but other people dont want to fuck with it and they shouldnt have to. Hes going about it in a very rude way though. He might get his ass beat, I wreckon.

People dont have to buy cheese stakes at that place if they dont want to.
You cant force the man to take orders in languages he doesnt undetstand. thats what he wants to do, and he will dea with the consequences if he loses coustomers.
He probably got sick of people thinknig that he should just know their languages and get frustrated at him and thats what made him put put such a belligerant thing up.

[Comrade J]

Patton, how exactly does one have 'balls' by writing a sign saying you must order in English? As people have pointed out, it's totally illogical, if anything he should write the sign in Spanish or whatever the main language of the community is.

Most westerners don't bother to learn the language of places they are visiting. If you didn't speak Spanish but went to Spain or Mexico for two weeks, would you just go hungry?

Some people on here are worryingly stupid. :huh:

[theraven]

Originally posted by clownpenisanarchy+Jun 14 2006, 06:37 PM--> (clownpenisanarchy @ Jun 14 2006, 06:37 PM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 08:06 AM
What, that someone should have to understand a little English in a majority English speaking country? How horrible. Reminds me a little of the tortures of Alschuwitz.
What about tourists who want a philly cheesesteak? I'd imagine most americans who visit Russia wouldn't be able to read a sign that says "Вы должны говорить по-русски, чтобы заказать"...why should you expect a Russian to read the same thing in English?

Futhermore, he has a sign outdoors that says "you have to speak english to order" (or something like that). The entire concept is self-defeating, because if they can understand the sign, then they obviously understand enough english to order in english.

What's so bad about ordering in the language that's most comfortable for you anyway? As long as the waiter can understand you, I fail to see why people can't be free to speak spanish or italian or any other language in a restaraunt. [/b]
thats the key point, i imagine the wiaters by and large can't understand you.

[Corvus]

Now Im entering this late, but oh well.

Since the USofA is entirely an immigrant community with the exception of 9%(correct me if I am wrong) that are Native American.

How wrong would it be if all us Natives demanded that everyone order in the language of the land. Objiway, Cree, and so forth.

Now I am more than certain the cappies here would be all "naah we almosted killed them, they should go hide in thier casinos." Or something along those lines.

This born, raised American does not know the challenges of being forced to learn a new language. It is one thing to be raised speaking three or so languages, but I can tell you, learning english at the age of 12 was difficult considering I only spoke Brown Bear Mohawk.

It is wrong to expect people coming to your country to speak a language they were not raised on. Anyways, more languages, and more cultures, lead to more diversity, something truly beautiful.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 03:33 PM
Now Im entering this late, but oh well.

Since the USofA is entirely an immigrant community with the exception of 9%(correct me if I am wrong) that are Native American.

How wrong would it be if all us Natives demanded that everyone order in the language of the land. Objiway, Cree, and so forth.

Now I am more than certain the cappies here would be all "naah we almosted killed them, they should go hide in thier casinos." Or something along those lines.

This born, raised American does not know the challenges of being forced to learn a new language. It is one thing to be raised speaking three or so languages, but I can tell you, learning english at the age of 12 was difficult considering I only spoke Brown Bear Mohawk.

It is wrong to expect people coming to your country to speak a language they were not raised on. Anyways, more languages, and more cultures, lead to more diversity, something truly beautiful.
1) Indians are no more native then I am, they just got here before me.

2)since Indians no longer control the country, plus most indians speak english, it is far more logical for things to be done in englishy then in the langauge of whatever tribe the Indian belongs to.

3) sure many languages together is pretty, but it doesnt work well. if 95% of your staff speaks only english with maybe rudimentry spanish whats going to happen when a bunch of peopel walk in expecting to be served but can't communicate with the staff?

[Corvus]

The concept I was trying to get accross was not people should start speaking aborginee languages, but rather you are trying to pull something on immigrants that you would not want pulled on yourself.

Amercia requires immigrants. Simple, it is wrong and unfair to expect them to speak your language to be given equal rights (not being served would be a violation of language rights, or do you now have those down in USofA?)

How come certain countries can teach thier populace to speak numerous languages - and the certain country I am thinking of is quite poor. Yet the mighty America cann't teach its people to speak one language?

And we are more Native than you. You come to Turtle Island and disease us, lie to us, and force us of the land that substains us. You can never call Turtle Island home. Dont lie to yourself, or anyone else. You are not a Native.

[theraven]

The concept I was trying to get accross was not people should start speaking aborginee languages, but rather you are trying to pull something on immigrants that you would not want pulled on yourself.


No, if I went to russia and walked into a non-toursity part of a moscow and treid to order something at a restruant and they kicekd me out because i didn't speak russian i wouldn't be all that upset. I am in theri country and don't speak their language. it would be presumptous of me to assume they should speak my language.,


Amercia requires immigrants. Simple, it is wrong and unfair to expect them to speak your language to be given equal rights (not being served would be a violation of language rights, or do you now have those down in USofA?)

No its not. America is a nation. a nation has a common culturae, among which is a langauge. most americans speak english and even older people who become citizens can speak rudimenterly english. if you come here and speak no english, you are
a) not going to be a citizen
b) not entitled to service if they can't speak the waitstaffs languages

no the US has no "language rights" i am aware of. No one says spansih speakers (or whoever speakers) can't speak their own lagnauge, just that when interacting with ththe waitstaff they have to speak good enough english that the waitstaff isn't pulling out dictionarys to figure out what thier saying


How come certain countries can teach thier populace to speak numerous languages - and the certain country I am thinking of is quite poor. Yet the mighty America cann't teach its people to speak one language?


we do speak one language..thats the issue isn't it?


And we are more Native than you. You come to Turtle Island and disease us, lie to us, and force us of the land that substains us. You can never call Turtle Island home. Dont lie to yourself, or anyone else. You are not a Native.

1) and we are more native then they are, so they come here they can' either kill us or learn our language.

2) oh and you didn't give us dieses? ever hear of syphallus? guess where thats from? Im sorry you guys have no immunaites to small pox but thats not realy our fault...

3) its North and South America, not "turtle island" turtle island is what neolothic tribes called it. (plus isn't turtuel island a refernce to the world,not the two contiennts?)

4) I don't go back as many generatiosn here as you, but consideirng the most time i ever left "turtle island" was a month I am most ceritnaly a native. my father was born here, and his parents came form euroep. my mothers side has been here for as along as anyoen can remember, probably sicne the 16th or 17th century.

[Corvus]

Turtle Island is our belief of how the Americas were created. When the story was created it was applied to just the known Americas, which would have been Mexcio and up.

I use the term Turtle Island in religious ways, because I am a very religious person. So depending on the source it could be either or.

Oh, and for your information. We did not give you syphilis. What is my evidence for this you ask? Syphilis is what killed King Henry the VIII, in 1547. How would Columbus get to the New World, and back in time to give poor old Henry syphilis in about the year 1505. A time where Britan and Spain had very little contact with one another.

This is my despute for syphilis, name another, maybe you will be right, maybe you wont.

However, the rest of the points you make are good points, I was just trying to defend the minority. Blindly, a bad move on my part.

Brez,

[theraven]

Turtle Island is our belief of how the Americas were created. When the story was created it was applied to just the known Americas, which would have been Mexcio and up.

I use the term Turtle Island in religious ways, because I am a very religious person. So depending on the source it could be either or.


you should probably stick with calling it earth. the only reason i knew what you meant was because we went to some indian mueseam in the 4th grade and i have a good memory for that stuff.


Oh, and for your information. We did not give you syphilis. What is my evidence for this you ask? Syphilis is what killed King Henry the VIII, in 1547. How would Columbus get to the New World, and back in time to give poor old Henry syphilis in about the year 1505. A time where Britan and Spain had very little contact with one another.

This is my despute for syphilis, name another, maybe you will be right, maybe you wont.

http://www.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/syphilis.html

seems its debated-my histroy book had syphallus as a new world deiases.


However, the rest of the points you make are good points, I was just trying to defend the minority. Blindly, a bad move on my part.

Brez,

thank you

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 06:07 AM
Clown penis anarchy I am inpressed at your russian, that really does say "you got to speak in russian so that you can order"


Thank you. :blush:

[ummProfessional]

it's his fucking Restaurant, he can do whatever the fuck he wants, if he looses costumers than thats his fault! you guys really are communists no doubt, trying to tell people how they should run their things.. :rolleyes:

is that the only fucking restaurant in Philly? i doubt it!! so than don't eat there if you really don't know english, and if you want to boycott it than go ahead, that is why this is a free country!! its as simple as that gosh!

[Comrade J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 12:46 AM
it's his fucking Restaurant, he can do whatever the fuck he wants, if he looses costumers than thats his fault! you guys really are communists no doubt, trying to tell people how they should run their things.. :rolleyes:
Omg, we're communists... on a fucking Communist forum!? Well how about that! :o

And we're not telling him how to "run his thing." In fact, as far as I'm aware, none of us have actually contacted this man and told him how he should operate his business. But this is a public forum, and we therefore debate how we think this man should operate his business. Sure, you disagree with our opinion, but you're doing the exact same thing as us. If we're telling him how to run his business, then so are you, only you agree with what he's already doing... does that make you a communist? Next time, try and see if you can stimulate just a tiiiiny bit of logic to come through in your 'argument.'

[JimmyC]

Most legal arguments of this kind, involving a private enterprise versus another's wish to access its product or services, boil down to the question of "What are the non-speaking person's damages?"

Presumably there are other places to get a sandwhich, and that a customer can go to another place for a substitute product.

In this case, the potential customer's life is not damaged in any real way by another person's not making him a meal. This issue is of little revelence.

Now, public accomodation laws require service given to people regardless of various things about them, such as race, ethinicity, gender, and the like. But if there is no law in this area when it comes to language, the potential customer is out of luck.

But as mentioned previously, he can eat somewhere else.

[overlord]

ummprofessional:


it's his fucking Restaurant, he can do whatever the fuck he wants, if he looses costumers than thats his fault! you guys really are communists no doubt, trying to tell people how they should run their things..

Yeah, its his restaruant. You guys suck. What happens if he don't like Mexicans? Its his right not to serve them. Anything else is dictatorship.

[Raisa]

Damn yall, he doesnt know their langaugage. And he doesnt want to, hes a cheese stake maker not a linguist.

[bcbm]

What happens if he don't like Mexicans? Its his right not to serve them. Anything else is dictatorship.

I suppose that applies in this situation, too:

http://faculty.sga.edu/mbutler/images/sit-in.jpg?

[JimmyC]

overlord and black banner:

Race and national origin ARE protected classes. I live in NYC, where there are a lot of people from many backgrounds, but federal law makes it illegal for me to be turned away on account of my Irish backgrouind. Same with your example. But the language one speaks is not a protected class.

[pedro san pedro]

No its not. America is a nation. a nation has a common culturae, among which is a langauge. most americans speak english and even older people who become citizens can speak rudimenterly english. if you come here and speak no english, you are
a) not going to be a citizen
b) not entitled to service if they can't speak the waitstaffs languages

no the US has no "language rights" i am aware of. No one says spansih speakers (or whoever speakers) can't speak their own lagnauge, just that when interacting with ththe waitstaff they have to speak good enough english that the waitstaff isn't pulling out dictionarys to figure out what thier saying

i'm guessing that you havent really travelled much, right? and that you hate tourists as much sa those dang immigrants? when i was living in asia, going into a resturant was always a hard experience for both me and the waitstaff, but i still had to eat. i wonder what you would suggest hat i had done instead?

one of the best ways to learn english is to immerse yourself in an english speaking environment - unfortunately, very very few english courses cover ordering cheesesteak. i'm new zealand born and this is the first time that i, a native english speaker, have heard the term. by shutting people away from his resturant the owner is, ultimately, only making it a lot harder for people to learn english.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 06:48 AM
overlord and black banner:

Race and national origin ARE protected classes. I live in NYC, where there are a lot of people from many backgrounds, but federal law makes it illegal for me to be turned away on account of my Irish backgrouind. Same with your example. But the language one speaks is not a protected class.
Read what I quoted. Thanks.

[theraven]

i'm guessing that you havent really travelled much, right? and that you hate tourists as much sa those dang immigrants? when i was living in asia, going into a resturant was always a hard experience for both me and the waitstaff, but i still had to eat. i wonder what you would suggest hat i had done instead?


1) I have traveled to england, i have , unfourtantly, not traveld anywhere else but when i do I will be sure to learn the basics of the langauge of the coutnry im giong to. I pick up langauges fairly fast when im bombarded by them so its not really a huge issue
2) I love tourists,immirgants and forieners in general.
3) If i was in another coutnry for an extended period of time (say 2 weeks or more) i'd probably learn enough that i could od things like order food, take a cab, ask directison to places at the very least. more than a month i'd aim at being able to hold a basic convo..you get the idea.


one of the best ways to learn english is to immerse yourself in an english speaking environment - unfortunately, very very few english courses cover ordering cheesesteak. i'm new zealand born and this is the first time that i, a native english speaker, have heard the term. by shutting people away from his resturant the owner is, ultimately, only making it a lot harder for people to learn english.

he isn't required you to be fluetn just that his waitstaff can understand you. its not that unreasonable a reuqest..

[JimmyC]

There is a greater issue here:

This is not per se a socialist v. capitalist argument, but many "political leaders" of various ethnic groups encourage their fellow reisdents, legal or otherwise NOT to assymilate. From a practical point of view, it's easier to manipulate recent immigrants politically if you keep them thinking they are exploited and cannot rise above anything WITHOUR YOUR CONTINUED GUIDENCE.

There's also a philosophical view that once people begin to lose their native language, they lose their culture.

This is of course nonsense. What happens is their culture becomes "Americanized" and blended.

Since that's been going on here for a very long time, it's no big deal.

But still, "Their would-be leaders" would want as much power as possible.