Late Capitalism

[RebelDog]

Possibly all marxist's in history thought they were experiencing 'late capitalism' or capitalism in decay. I take the scientific view as I always do; they were wrong and we could be right. Are we really experiencing late capitalism right now? Is it in decay? Is globalisation the last great act of a dying system? Are we just another generation of people who think we are experiencing late capitalism? I'm a marxist, so I know it will go someday, but when, does it have a tell-tale sign that heralds the end?

[Rawthentic]

Well, thats a daunting prediction to make. I would say, that capitalism, is in its late stages, since imperialism, neocolonialism, and globalization are at full strength right now. But this is on a historical scale. Most of us would agree, that that "tell-tale sign" you mentioned would be a major world-wide depression.

Some of the signs include, increased free-trade for the ever expanding growth of capitalism and the want for profit, outsourcing, which causes unemployment, less higher-education opportunities, imperialist wars, like the Iraq War, which seem like a desperate grab by imperialist nations for world domination, typical of capitalism , and the ever growing need for profit and raw materials, which leads to intense imperialism and exploitation.

[EusebioScrib]

Judging from history, I'd say we're not quite there yet.

Capitalism has been in "decay" since the 19th century. Crisis after crisis caused capital to restructure itself and expand. When there is no more room to expand, capital will implode, kinda like the universe, so they say. Of course however we can't think of this as capital acting all independent of humanity. This all only happens when humans take action, however I think by looking at the general trend of social movements, things will happen that way.

Capital is already starting to see crisis. For instance, American Capital feels threatened by Iranian and Venezuelan capital because they are threatening their imperialist dominance. When there is a global equalization i.e. no imperialist nor colonial nations, capital will have no room to expand and it will be fucked.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:28 PM
Well, thats a daunting prediction to make. I would say, that capitalism, is in its late stages, since imperialism, neocolonialism, and globalization are at full strength right now. But this is on a historical scale. Most of us would agree, that that "tell-tale sign" you mentioned would be a major world-wide depression.

Some of the signs include, increased free-trade for the ever expanding growth of capitalism and the want for profit, outsourcing, which causes unemployment, less higher-education opportunities, imperialist wars, like the Iraq War, which seem like a desperate grab by imperialist nations for world domination, typical of capitalism , and the ever growing need for profit and raw materials, which leads to intense imperialism and exploitation.
I remember the Marx prediction of overproduction. Overproduction is inescapably linked with surplus value and so the value of products must diminish with mechanisation. Could it be that one day its just too expensive to be a capitalist? Consumers need money?

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:42 PM
Judging from history, I'd say we're not quite there yet.

Capitalism has been in "decay" since the 19th century. Crisis after crisis caused capital to restructure itself and expand. When there is no more room to expand, capital will implode, kinda like the universe, so they say. Of course however we can't think of this as capital acting all independent of humanity. This all only happens when humans take action, however I think by looking at the general trend of social movements, things will happen that way.

Capital is already starting to see crisis. For instance, American Capital feels threatened by Iranian and Venezuelan capital because they are threatening their imperialist dominance. When there is a global equalization i.e. no imperialist nor colonial nations, capital will have no room to expand and it will be fucked.
But this is an historical trait, nothing new.

[Hit The North]

Does it matter how late it is? It's not like we're a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses waiting for the "end of days", is it?

The big problem which capitalism will soon need to face is the decline in oil production, particularly at a time when China and India are industrialising at a frightening pace and the demand and competition for dwindling oil supplies is intensifying.

The modern capitalist system is so oil dependant it's frightening to think of the impact current global oil rivalries will have in the near future.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 13 2006, 11:09 PM
Does it matter how late it is? It's not like we're a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses waiting for the "end of days", is it?

The big problem which capitalism will soon need to face is the decline in oil production, particularly at a time when China and India are industrialising at a frightening pace and the demand and competition for dwindling oil supplies is intensifying.

The modern capitalist system is so oil dependant it's frightening to think of the impact current global oil rivalries will have in the near future.
The problem you state is that of emerging capitalist economies overtaking the established. Again, nothing new. Energy for production has always been a problem.

[EusebioScrib]

But this is an historical trait, nothing new.

It is not a "trait" so much as it is the feature.

What I described was late capitalism, or how it will be manifested. We're certainly not near the end. Neither consciousness nor material conditions are present.

You asked for "sign that heralds the end" and I gave it to ya.

[Hit The North]

The problem you state is that of emerging capitalist economies overtaking the established. Again, nothing new.

No, I'm talking about the very life-blood of capitalist production over the past 150 years drying up.

I don't see any alternatives to it on the horizon.

[Hit The North]

When there is a global equalization i.e. no imperialist nor colonial nations, capital will have no room to expand and it will be fucked.

When do you expect to see this glorious day?

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:42 PM
Judging from history, I'd say we're not quite there yet.

Capitalism has been in "decay" since the 19th century. Crisis after crisis caused capital to restructure itself and expand. When there is no more room to expand, capital will implode, kinda like the universe, so they say. Of course however we can't think of this as capital acting all independent of humanity. This all only happens when humans take action, however I think by looking at the general trend of social movements, things will happen that way.

Capital is already starting to see crisis. For instance, American Capital feels threatened by Iranian and Venezuelan capital because they are threatening their imperialist dominance. When there is a global equalization i.e. no imperialist nor colonial nations, capital will have no room to expand and it will be fucked.
I thought you gave just another cyclic value of capitalism. Is not all things in decay? The question is when? How do you define "no more room to expand" Capital always feels threatened, by the way.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 13 2006, 03:32 PM

The problem you state is that of emerging capitalist economies overtaking the established. Again, nothing new.

No, I'm talking about the very life-blood of capitalist production over the past 150 years drying up.

I don't see any alternatives to it on the horizon.
Oil isn't "drying" up, we have more than enough oil reserves to last us until a viable alternative can be developed, and put into effect.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by kurt+Jun 14 2006, 12:30 AM--> (kurt @ Jun 14 2006, 12:30 AM)
Citizen [email protected] 13 2006, 03:32 PM

The problem you state is that of emerging capitalist economies overtaking the established. Again, nothing new.

No, I'm talking about the very life-blood of capitalist production over the past 150 years drying up.

I don't see any alternatives to it on the horizon.
Oil isn't "drying" up, we have more than enough oil reserves to last us until a viable alternative can be developed, and put into effect. [/b]
Renewables will come when capitalism wants

[Comrade-Z]

This is a short little something about late capitalism I put together for a discussion on marxism:


Some symptoms of Capitalism's meltdown (or “decadence,” in Marxist terminology) in the advanced capitalist countries:
*Standards of living stagnant or declining.
*Increased social stratification, increased stratification in income.
*More wage-earners needed per family in order to maintain a given standard of living.
*Ballooning private and public debt.
*The dismantling of the social safety net and the repeal of working class reforms and concessions in the advanced capitalist countries.
***Due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall over time, the advanced capitalist countries can't afford those reforms anymore.
*The relative lack of new development of the means of production (and, indeed, the closing down of existing ones).
*The deterioration of racism, nationalism, and religion among a large part of the population (indicating that an increasingly large part of the proletariat is ready to take intelligent, unified action).
***Example: only roughly 7% of the French population regularly attends Church nowadays.
*The rise of clerical fascism among a another (smaller) section of the population (indicating that capitalism is increasingly vulnerable).
*Increasing cynicism concerning the concepts of leadership, authority, and the current ruling class.
*The emergence of technology that directly calls into question the continued viability of current relations of production (such as with digital technology, which is being fettered from being fully implemented by capitalist property rights).
*The rise of various “end of the world” notions—a symptom that people realize that “things cannot go on like this.”
*A ruling class that is increasingly out of touch with reality.
***The U.S.'s imperial adventure in Iraq, far from profiting the capitalist class as a whole, is putting western capitalism trillions of dollars in debt now that the U.S. has floundered there “like a beached whale.”

[redstar2000]

One "sign" of a system "in decay" is that its meta-narrative starts to lose credibility. People begin to think that "things can't go on like this".

Another such "sign" is that the old ruling class begins to act irrationally. Something which I think we can actually observe in the present period.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Janus]

I agree, those are some signs that have to do with ideas and consciousness. Of course, there are also material conditions that may be prerequisite. For example, there may be market collapses and probably some kind of depression. Once these conditions reach the boiling point (which is still far ahead) then this conscoiusness and desire for change will result.

[BobKKKindle$]

I think Imperialism is the most important sign that Capitalism is in decay. As lenin analysed in Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism, Imperialism is a result of the super-concentration of Capital. The War and destruction that will result / is resulting from Capitalism will, I feel, act as an impetus for people to begin to question the System upon which the world is built. Janus pointed out the problem of creating a revolutionary consciousness; although as socialists we are of course oppossed to imperialism - Imperialism could be the way to do this! Prior to the current period, Capitalism has been limited to 'peaceful' globalisation, but now that National Sovereignty and the need to preserve a declining rate of profit are in sharp conflict, the possibility of armed struggle allows oppurtunities for an Insurrection.

However, it must be noted that, using the Iraq war as a reference, Imperialism has been used as an oppurtunity to create new fissures and divides amongst the internaitonal proletariat in the name of the 'War on terror'. Therefore, whilst Revolution is a possibility, a unified World Revolutionary front may not be so easy to achieve. A United Working Class is a much more difficult proposition than Revolution in one country.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by The Dissenter+Jun 13 2006, 02:46 PM--> (The Dissenter @ Jun 13 2006, 02:46 PM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 10:28 PM
Well, thats a daunting prediction to make. I would say, that capitalism, is in its late stages, since imperialism, neocolonialism, and globalization are at full strength right now. But this is on a historical scale. Most of us would agree, that that "tell-tale sign" you mentioned would be a major world-wide depression.

Some of the signs include, increased free-trade for the ever expanding growth of capitalism and the want for profit, outsourcing, which causes unemployment, less higher-education opportunities, imperialist wars, like the Iraq War, which seem like a desperate grab by imperialist nations for world domination, typical of capitalism , and the ever growing need for profit and raw materials, which leads to intense imperialism and exploitation.
I remember the Marx prediction of overproduction. Overproduction is inescapably linked with surplus value and so the value of products must diminish with mechanisation. Could it be that one day its just too expensive to be a capitalist? Consumers need money? [/b]
yes, I would say so, that one day it would be too expensive to be a capitalist. In an overproduction crisis, capitalists would be losing money, while simultaneously employing more workers, and having to pay them. But then again, back to the idea that they are losing money, so even if the workers are producing, they will overproduce even more, so the capitalist would lose more money.

Everyone would get fucked, including consumers, and in the capitalists' ever growing need for profit in the midst of a crises, they would raise prices.

[More Fire for the People]

Capitalism has been in "decay" since the 19th century. Crisis after crisis caused capital to restructure itself and expand. When there is no more room to expand, capital will implode, kinda like the universe, so they say. Of course however we can't think of this as capital acting all independent of humanity.
If this were the case, then capitalism would be the end of history as space could offer abundant resources.

[Zero]

In my opinion Capitalism has been in the stage of denial over their decay ever since the Industrial Revolution. Now that "first world" nations must create scarcity in all markets just so they can operate the classes (especially the industrial workers) can see that they are working at minimal efficiency, while people in other nations are starving and dirt poor.

Theres only so much people can stand before we rise up. It's just a matter of whether or not the press will do their job or not. And since everything is privatised, theres very little chance of that in the near future. The media is working against us, its working against the common man as well... but the masses have yet to realise THAT yet. >.>

[Comrade-Z]

I found an interesting economic analysis of the indicators of capitalism's crisis here (http://en.internationalism.org/ir/121_crisis).

[barista.marxista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 02:35 AM
One "sign" of a system "in decay" is that its meta-narrative starts to lose credibility. People begin to think that "things can't go on like this".

Another such "sign" is that the old ruling class begins to act irrationally. Something which I think we can actually observe in the present period.
I don't think the ruling class is acting irrationally. At least, I don't think the neoconservative economic policies dictating US foreign policy at the present time are irrational. US capital does feel its economic dominance being threatened by the raising capitalist nations of China, Venezuela, Iran, etc. The invasion of Iraq is pretty simple: it's about oil. Oil is used in the production of everything in our economy; the nation that politically controls the world's current oil spigot has control over the economy for the next fifty years. In the post-fordist era, with China's labor market, and Venezuela's natural resources - US geopolitical hegemony is seriously threatened. And the coercive neocon political and economic policies directly reflect that. David Harvey discusses this thoroughly in his book The New Imperialism.

The social conservatism right now from the religious fundamentalists is weird. It's an expression of an old social order struggling to maintain power in a de-centralized, finance-based world. It's an attempt at social control, in the same vein that nationalism was used during the Fordist era of fascism and state-capitalism. It serves a definite role in the attempt to keep the social factory reproductive for the regime of accumulation.

But you're right -- the meta-narrative is begining to lose its credibility. And I think this is manifesting itself in the general resistance to neoliberal accumulation by dispossession, and the attempted imposition of the social-factory. This is a sign, I think, of capitalism's current historical stage is in decay -- but it has proven itself capable of reorganizing itself to find new ways to disperse overaccumulation and thus prevent an ultimate crisis.

[EusebioScrib]

When do you expect to see this glorious day?

Well, I don't have a crystal ball, so I dunno. I never claimed to know when, but I try to hypothesize how it will happen.



I thought you gave just another cyclic value of capitalism. Is not all things in decay? The question is when? How do you define "no more room to expand" Capital always feels threatened, by the way.

All things are not in decay, some are. We can't know when, but we can hypothesize what the conditions would be like when it does happen. No more room to expand can't really be defined anymore. When capital can find no more markets then it implodes. Geographical limitations play a major role here, the earth is only so big.

[peaccenicked]

The question as far as I can see it is best presented by Rosa Luxembourg's idea of Socialism or Barbarism. I believe that Capitalism in essence no longer exists as described by previous last century theorists, we have entered a period of barbarism, which is manifested as the rule of gangsters, the degradation of infrastructure, the decay of cultural production. The pole between hard cash and social care in stark contradiction everywhere. There is an atomisation of human consciousness itself.

The bourgeios state is being privatised.

We dont live in a world that is recognisable to past theory.

The ruling class do not rule in the old way, majority shareholders power is supreme to all 'civil' authority save some few exceptional struggles by dedicated people. The legal system itself under attack.(the already virtual indepedent judiciary)

The asset stripping and out sourcing ethic, or non ethic, is the quick buck gone mad. The laws of capitalism, the law of value is being undermined at all points by the false economy of credit, and super inflated housing prices.

In my view the system is in burn out mode, and it will continue to burn out until
the vast majority get absolutely sick of it, and decide to do something about it.