What do you think about Quebec's situation? - Do you agree w

[El Barbudo]

In Quebec, which is french for 85% of the population, there's about 45% of the people who wants to separate from Canada because they are anglophones and pretty differents from us (most of them are rightists, pro-war, etc...)? But, when socialism says to stay togheter even if we are differents, should we approve separatism? I'm a separatist, but what do you think about it?

[Comrade Gorley]

In a perfect Communist utopia, there would BE no borders, and we wouldn't have to worry about this crap.

But as Canada is still capitalist...

Yeah, I'm sick of hearing Quebec whine, let them seperate so they can figure out how great they'll do as a country.

Heh heh. I can imagine THAT.

[redstar2000]

Well, Comrade Gorley, are you suggesting that only English-speaking Canadians are "fit to run things"?

I suspect that were I quebecois -- did I get that right? -- I would think independence would be a pretty good idea.

Perhaps with two countries north of the U.S., they'd engage in some spirited rivalry about who could be more defiant of commands from Washington, D.C.

Just a thought.

:cool:

[ihatepunkrockandbmx]

there'll be no talk of seperation for while seeing as how the liberals are in power.anyway i've never really heard an argument as to why Quebec should seperate beyond the nationalistic rantings of a few screw-jobs.care to enlighten me?

[Donut Master]

Do the seperatists really think Quebec could survive as an independant country? How would this be done? Wouldn't they end up heavily dependant on trade with Canada, anyway?

[Sandanista]

Because they speak a different language doesnt give them the claim to become independant considering no imperialist power ever made them become part of canada.

[redstar2000]

"no imperialist power ever made them become part of Canada".

Wha?

Correct me if I am mistaken, but was Quebec not a French colony early on? Was it not lost to England as a result of the French being defeated by the English? Did they ever have a referendum, back in those early days, about whether the people of Quebec wanted to be part of an English colony, later to become Canada?

I'm willing to be corrected, but I believe the answers are yes, yes, and no.

:cool:

[MarxIsGod]

Much to my surprise, I strongly agree with RedStar. First of all, I think the quebecois would be just fine (if not better) on their own. While I would oppose separation if it would purely a cultural/nationality issue, the fact is that Quebec also significantly differs politically from the rest of Canada. The only thing that remains is for more Quebecis (as in all people from Quebec, not just the French quebecois) to support separation. The only real problem that I can see anti-separatists having is the question of what will be done with people living in Quebec who are not French and do not support separation. To secede from Canada without a significant majority in favor of separation could have nasty results. For example, secession from Canada following a 51% to 49% vote on the issue could very well lead to civil war in Quebec. Once this issue is addressed, however (and I don't think it is too difficult to resolve), there is no question that Quebec should be able to separate from Canada.

[Spartacus2002]

sepratists are hypocrites... i hate them all, always whining we beat you in that damn war, suck it up, stop complaining, they say they are socialists, but socialists have no motherland so why the sepratism, if they seperated in 2 years they'd be begging to come back into canada

[Sandanista]

The point i was trying to make is that the peoples of quebec are not an oppressed people.

If they become a separate state it would be harder for socialism to spread in north america

[MarxIsGod]

Quote: from Sandanista on 5:54 pm on May 7, 2003
The point i was trying to make is that the peoples of quebec are not an oppressed people.

If they become a separate state it would be harder for socialism to spread in north america

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you trying to say that another government in North America someow would affect the spread of socialism? The spreading of socialism depends on the people and their desire to no longer be oppressed or their desire to free those who are oppressed and live as equals.

[Sandanista]

What I mean is instead of just canada becoming socialist, it would be quebec AND canada having to become socialist, the point is, its another boundary so therefore more work

[redstar2000]

Hearing some funny stuff in this thread.

I didn't know that Canadians could talk just like Americans..."quit whining, you lost the war, suck it up, blah, blah, blah."

I'm curious what will come next? Something like "Quebec is part of Canada's manifest destiny", perhaps?

Why should any kind of socialist or communist care what new nations might be created out of the territories of existing nations over the next century?

Surely no one thinks there is something "sacred" or "inevitable" about nations? They are all historical accidents, artificial constructs that were created by humans and can be changed or destroyed by humans.

Frankly, I'd like to see the U.S. broken up into half a dozen independent countries...it would be better for us and better for the planet. Big countries are a pain in the ass.

:cool:

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Spartacus2002 on 8:57 pm on May 7, 2003
sepratists are hypocrites... i hate them all, always whining we beat you in that damn war, suck it up, stop complaining, they say they are socialists, but socialists have no motherland so why the sepratism, if they seperated in 2 years they'd be begging to come back into canada


Gee that argument sounds familiar,....of course i ususally hear it in realtion to aboriginal peoples on Turtle Island (who btw were not 'deafeated' in a war).

and yes Quebec was defeated by the English BUT the politicians of Quebec also chose to join Confederation......they made achoice...and no it wasn't the English who made that choice, it was the french.

[CubanFox]

Vive la révolution de l'ouvrier du Québec! ;)


(Edited by CubanFox at 12:27 am on May 10, 2003)

[Luna]

I think that enlish canadians react like spartacus because they can't imagine canada being split in two by a soverein Québec. Just imagine a map of canada with Québec as a country in the middle of it. I think they are affraid that they would have to cross borders to to get to the atlantic provinces. With all the resources there is in Québec, with the St-Lawrence river,with the common border with usa, with canada on each side and good relations with other countries, I think that canada would end up beggin Québec to come back.

[CubanFox]

If relations w/Canada ever soured the Quebecois could just ransom access to the Atlantic provinces in return for happy relationships.

[FatFreeMilk]

what the hell is a seperatist?

[CubanFox]

Someone who wants to separate a tract of land from a country so the tract can be its own country. Quebec, for example.

[Nickademus]

first of all the states is separated by one big country....Canada..olr do we forget about Alaska.....and 'owning' the archepellego makes it very possible to get to the atlantic provinces without going through quebec....and quite frankly i'm not too worried about that.....
i'm also thinkin' about the quebecois, english or french, and the aboriginal peoples in quebec. wtf should quebec get to separate when they are the WORST when it comes to protecting aboriginal self-determination? Why must quebec separate when it is very very possible for them to gain all that they want, in a much safer manner than if they were to separate...it will just take a bit longer....but what is better? speed or security?

[DisruptiveBehaviour]

I really don't want to say this, but just to pint out the blatant stupidity of some of the sepratists , I will anyway.

First, 55% of the population doesn't want to seperate, so please don't say Quebec as a whole, I know many quebecois who do not want to seperate.
Second, The entire sepratist movement is solely ideological, I doubt it has ever been thoroughly thought out, and with less then 8 million for population , I doubt it would be able to sustain itself at all.
Thirdly, put up or shut up. I know I'm making a generalization here, but all French should really, really stop whining.

Et ouais, pour tous les insultés, je parle français.

[CubanFox]

And now, here is some silliness.

http://www.grouplx.com/users/zaarin/quebec.JPG

[Nickademus]

Quote: from DisruptiveBehaviour on 4:21 am on May 10, 2003
I really don't want to say this, but just to pint out the blatant stupidity of some of the sepratists , I will anyway.

First, 55% of the population doesn't want to seperate, so please don't say Quebec as a whole, I know many quebecois who do not want to seperate.
Second, The entire sepratist movement is solely ideological, I doubt it has ever been thoroughly thought out, and with less then 8 million for population , I doubt it would be able to sustain itself at all.
Thirdly, put up or shut up. I know I'm making a generalization here, but all French should really, really stop whining.

Et ouais, pour tous les insultés, je parle français.


je suis en accord avec ca

[Pete]

I can read more french than I can speak, and I also agree with DB.

Quick Fact: The Canadian Government is the largest employer in Quebec.

Ever since Wolfe committed what could have been the collective suicide of his entire force (positioning himself between to hostile armies is not always a good thing) and Moncalme made just as bad of an idea (not calling the army behind Wolfe to pincer him) and the French chose two islands in the Gulf of St. Lawernce and a sugar island Quebec has been Canadian. Bad blood has been there since the 1600's and it stilll is not gone.

[Luna]

Why canadians vote most of the time for a prime minister who is from Québec?

[maxfish17]

Some people seem to have the impression that Quebec is "oppressed", but that simply isn't the case. The Canadian government is in now way forcing quebec to stay part of Canada, and Quebec's provincial government can call a referendum any time they want.

As DisruptiveBehaviour pointed out, most Quebecois are currently against separation. After many separatist ("the parti-quebecois") governments in a row, Jean Charest, (a liberal federalist), was elected just a month or so ago. The Parti-Quebecois recieved about one-third of the vote, if i remember correctly. The rest voted for the liberals and the ADQ (A new far-right Quebec party).

[FabFabian]

I can't believe I am going weigh in on this, but here is goes.

As far as Quebec losing to the English this is not the case. It was the French who lost to the English in the Seven Year's War. As the victors, England was in want of one of two French colonies Quebec and Guadelope (I believe, if not it was a colony in the Caribbean). The French easily gave up Quebec as it was always considered "just an acre of snow".

Let's say that Quebec does separate. Your head would have to be in cloudkookooland if you think that the geographical borders of Quebec would stay the same. First of all, the First Nations people would fight tooth and nail to keep the lands they have within Quebec. The political and diplomatical wrangling is a nightmare scenario. Quebec as an independent nation would basically be the island of Montreal, no more, no less. Yes Francophones have been marginalized, but in the past. In the past 3 decades the feds have bent over backwards to appease various separatists. How marginalized can you be if you have sent several Quebecois to Sussex Drive? You can't hope to make it in senior positions if you don't know French. Quebec has control over immigration to the province. French language and culture rights have been enshrined in the Charter. If Quebec was in any real threat of disappearing it would have done so if Britain had implimented the Durham report, which suggested the assimilation of the French. I think there are other minorities groups in the world that would consider Quebec to be in such a fortunate position.

[Nic8]

Ok, as an English person living in Quebec, It might sound weird to hear that I support seperation and am very angry that the liberals won the election.

Just because other minority groups, such as the first nations, have it worse off then the french, it does not meen that the Quebecois don't have it bad. What I am reading on this forum is something along the lines of this: "Someone has it worse then you so you should shut up and stop your whining." So, in less you have it the worst in the world, you should shup up and not ***** about it?

Quebec would be fine on its own. We would keep the Canadian dollar. Once the Quebec politics stabalised, property values and industry would increase. The only reason that Quebecs economy has been stagnant for the last two decades has been the political instability. Once seperation has been straightened out, even if it takes a couple years, the country will become stable and the economy will increase again.

Socialism does not meen that Quebec and Canada would be the same country. I don't see socialism as a world government. I see it as a bunch of autonomous states and cities. Different cultures having their own governments is not contrary to socialism.

The funny thing is, the only whining I've heard here has been from english federalists who don't live in Quebec. Maybe people should stop their own whining and shut up themselves.