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Hit The North
13th June 2006, 22:22
Today in the UK two Islamic citizens have told of their harrowing arrest by the fascist London Metropolitan police Force:

CLICK HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5075352.stm)

Here in the UK there has been over one thousand wrongful arrest of Asian Britons since 9/11. My question is this: has this repressive and paranoiac clampdown been happening in the States, Canada and other countries?

Rawthentic
14th June 2006, 00:46
Yes, this has been happening, but in the name of freedom of course! :D . Yes, the US government has conducted illegal wiretappings, supposedly looking for "terrorists," and undoubtedly has arrested people who they deem to be terrorist. In Canada, their was recently a huge arrest of a few extremist muslims who were planning a bombing.

emma_goldman
15th June 2006, 02:57
I live in Florida so I&#39;ll relate this story that happened not too long ago. There was a bipolar man in a Miami airport who had not taken his medications apparently and some guards said he was being frantic and saying something about a bomb (I&#39;m pretty sure this part of the story was only mentioned by the guards <_< ) and so they shot the man in front of his wife. Shoot first, ask questions later. It&#39;s a sickening policy.

Plus look at the "ports contraversy" over the Dubai ports sell. There was such commentary over a rather trivial matter mostly because, I suspect, it was an Arab country.

Good article: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0612-06.htm

Vinny Rafarino
15th June 2006, 18:07
Originally posted by citizen zero
Persecution of Islamic population continues apace


You say that like it&#39;s a bad thing.

I can care less that two Islamic screwballs were persecuted or by whom they were persecuted by.

Just as as long as they, and every other religious cult, share this fate for many years to come.

In addition kids, if you for one minute think that the British Police organised a group of 250 knuckleheads for a raid (no small endeavor) based simply on a phone call from old granny needsadentist upstairs, then you&#39;re in need of a lobatamy.

emma_goldman
15th June 2006, 18:22
:o

Holy fuck&#33; What kind of leftist are you? And who said they were necessarily screwballs?

Vinny Rafarino
15th June 2006, 19:33
Originally posted by emma goldman
Holy fuck&#33; What kind of leftist are you?

The kind that does not tolerate any forms of primative superstition and those who follow its doctrine.

In light of this revelation, I think it would be more appropriate for you to ask yourself the very same question.


And who said they were necessarily screwballs?

Are you attemting to say that an individual that believes such superstitious nonsense as Islam is not a screwball?

YKTMX
15th June 2006, 21:56
I know the moderators have removed our little spat, but still.

It&#39;s quite clear Bill is a racist - that&#39;s obvious. Perhaps he maintains a tankie belief in the superiority of the "Great Russian" people, who knows?

In any case, the persecution of Muslims by Western governments is something everyone should be concerned about. Quite frankly, as I&#39;ve discovered in my time here, Bill isn&#39;t the only member who is a racist.

The role of Marxists and socialists isn&#39;t to criticise this or that tenet of Islam. We understand that it&#39;s not "Islam" that&#39;s the "problem" - but the material circumstances that give rise to religion and "superstition". Religion is the supernatural expression of "real" oppression. In order to "get rid" of religion, we have to remove the social system that makes people look for "other worldly" answers to their problems.

Racists like Bill will never understand this.

EwokUtopia
15th June 2006, 22:13
I live in Canada, recently there was big news about 17 "terrorists" being arrested and, although they stull havnt undergone any kind of trial, most of the population instantly assumes that they are guilty of trying to kill Canadians in the name of Allah. I am far more skeptical about this, indeed, outright, i think it is played up propaganda in the greatest form. It is reminicient of the Reichstag burning, and especially of Kristallnacht, as what didnt make the front page was that a day after the arrests, racists ransacked several mosques in Toronto in "retalliation" to terrorist attacks that never happened. Canadian media, which has previously enjoyed a reputation as being far more neutral and less hotheaded than its American and British counterparts, is falling victim to the ever expanding neoliberal fascist machine. Islamophobia on the right is becoming a powerful, dangerous, and all together scary aspect of western society. We do not need Islamophobia on the left as well. There is a difference between Islam and Extremism, the latter being an extreme minority that, incidentally enough, is the only thing that allows the imperialist powers to continue their wars of aggression and buisiness of exploitation in the oil rich Middle East. Seems like Bin Laden is a very useful asset to the American Wealthy, makes you wonder who he really works for...

http://toronto.nooneisillegal.org/node/335

The Grey Blur
15th June 2006, 22:55
Originally posted by Bill Shatner+Jun 15 2006, 03:08 PM--> (Bill Shatner @ Jun 15 2006, 03:08 PM)
citizen zero
Persecution of Islamic population continues apace


You say that like it&#39;s a bad thing.

I can care less that two Islamic screwballs were persecuted or by whom they were persecuted by.

Just as as long as they, and every other religious cult, share this fate for many years to come.

In addition kids, if you for one minute think that the British Police organised a group of 250 knuckleheads for a raid (no small endeavor) based simply on a phone call from old granny needsadentist upstairs, then you&#39;re in need of a lobatamy. [/b]
What a surprise, a racist idiot is in the Commie Club

YKTMX
15th June 2006, 23:02
Originally posted by Permanent Revolution+Jun 15 2006, 07:56 PM--> (Permanent Revolution @ Jun 15 2006, 07:56 PM)
Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 15 2006, 03:08 PM

citizen zero
Persecution of Islamic population continues apace


You say that like it&#39;s a bad thing.

I can care less that two Islamic screwballs were persecuted or by whom they were persecuted by.

Just as as long as they, and every other religious cult, share this fate for many years to come.

In addition kids, if you for one minute think that the British Police organised a group of 250 knuckleheads for a raid (no small endeavor) based simply on a phone call from old granny needsadentist upstairs, then you&#39;re in need of a lobatamy.
What a surprise, a racist idiot is in the Commie Club [/b]
:lol:

Apparently there&#39;s a few Catholics in the Vatican as well.

Who knew?

Amusing Scrotum
15th June 2006, 23:31
Originally posted by Citizen Zero+--> (Citizen Zero)Here in the UK there has been over one thousand wrongful arrest of Asian Britons since 9/11. My question is this: has this repressive and paranoiac clampdown been happening in the States, Canada and other countries?[/b]

As far as I know, in America, the veil of "counter terrorism" has been used to disguise routine attacks on immigrants in general. That is, those affected, are not specifically Muslim....and though there are no doubt instances of the specific targeting of Muslims, the general practice just seems to be the targeting of "non-white" immigrants, regardless of their superstition or lack there of.

Indeed, even in Britain, the people most affected by the "anti-terrorism legislation" have been young Black men. And, given immigration patterns, these men are not, generally speaking, Muslims. They are far more likely to be either Christians or atheists.

And really, the evidence in favour of the idea that there is routine targeting of Muslims, is pretty thin. Rather, the British State seems to just be doing "business as usual" and targeting immigrants in general....rather than Muslims specifically. Which is why examples such as the one above seem so shocking. (?)

Of course, the insistence of some people on the left to conflate Islam with anyone "non-white", doesn&#39;t make it any easier for "non-white" people....certainly promoting such a stereotype makes it far easier for the State to mask its attacks on immigrants under the banner of "anti-terrorism".


Originally posted by Bill Shatner+--> (Bill Shatner)I can care less that two Islamic screwballs were persecuted or by whom they were persecuted by.[/b]

Well, to be honest, I&#39;m not sure whether these two guys were actually Muslims. They were reported on suspicion of drug dealing if memory serves me correctly. But, still, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s wise for revolutionaries to support the State entering peoples homes and shooting them. After all, as I said, they were originally thought to be drug dealers....and I certainly would not be happy with the State started busting down the doors of the homes of folks who like to smoke a little weed.


Originally posted by YKTMX
It&#39;s quite clear Bill is a racist - that&#39;s obvious.

It&#39;s not at all "obvious", unless Muslims have become a "race". But we&#39;ve had this discussion before, and therefore, I know that your quite happy to link every "non-white" person with a primitive social paradigm.


[email protected]
In order to "get rid" of religion, we have to remove the social system that makes people look for "other worldly" answers to their problems.

Nope, we have to remove it from the public sphere.

Which would still make attacks on the Religious in their homes inappropriate, as removing Religion from the public sphere means we respect peoples rights to practice whatever stupid shit they want to in private.


EwokUtopia
We do not need Islamophobia on the left as well.

Yes we do. As the folks of the Iranian Worker Communist Party would gladly tell you.
_____

Plus, I&#39;ve seen two people link current events with past fascism in this thread now, which is really stupid. You can criticise the State interfering in the private lives of people without resorting to the daft sensationalism of calling said State "fascist". Fascism is a specific thing and you destroy its meaning by babbling on about it in this manner.

YKTMX
15th June 2006, 23:42
It&#39;s not at all "obvious", unless Muslims have become a "race".

You&#39;re always good for a bit of comic relief, AS.


I know that your quite happy to link every "non-white" person with a primitive social paradigm.


No, unlike some others, I&#39;m not afraid to give people their proper titles. If you and Shatner show yourselves to be rather vulgar racists, I&#39;ll call you it.


Which would still make attacks on the Religious in their homes inappropriate, as removing Religion from the public sphere means we respect peoples rights to practice whatever stupid shit they want to in private.


What means do you suggest to achieve this?

Vinny Rafarino
17th June 2006, 19:31
Originally posted by permanent absurdity+--> (permanent absurdity)What a surprise, a racist idiot is in the Commie Club[/b]

If you&#39;re a good little boy and drink all of your ovaltine, perhaps one day the capo di tutti capi of the commie club will open up the books and "make" a few more more "idiots" such as yourself.

Now go and get your shine-box Tommy.


Originally posted by Trot [email protected]
It&#39;s quite clear Bill is a racist - that&#39;s obvious. Perhaps he maintains a tankie belief in the superiority of the "Great Russian" people, who knows?


Back to your old tactics again I see. :lol:


AS
Well, to be honest, I&#39;m not sure whether these two guys were actually Muslims. They were reported on suspicion of drug dealing if memory serves me correctly. But, still, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s wise for revolutionaries to support the State entering peoples homes and shooting them. After all, as I said, they were originally thought to be drug dealers....and I certainly would not be happy with the State started busting down the doors of the homes of folks who like to smoke a little weed.

There is no doubt at all that these kats are Muslim.

The article never mentions anything about drug dealing, so I&#39;m not really picking up what you&#39;re laying down with that jazz.

In any case, "caring less" is a far cry from "supporting".

Ander
17th June 2006, 22:36
Don&#39;t worry guys, Bill is just a prejudiced Stalinist; you don&#39;t have to listen to him.

Forward Union
17th June 2006, 22:55
It seems YTKMX is quick to call anyone a racist if they seem to oppose some form of nationalism or religion he likes. However on this occasion I agree with him.

Bill, your comments are completely inappropriate. As revolutionaries, we don&#39;t want to destroy people for their religious beliefs, we just want to destroy the religious institutions, and faith, or the conditions that lead to this misunderstanding of the world, as YTKMX said.

The fact that anyone can support this kind of prejudice state-terror is far beyond me. And what&#39;s more, these victims, as it turns out were absolutely nothing to do with Islamic extremism. So regardless of what (mis)information the state had that lead to the raid, It&#39;s the guys appearance that led to his shooting. It didn&#39;t matter to the policemen who did the shooting what was inside that mans head, just what he looked like. It&#39;s disgusting and this form of police repression should be opposed fiercely by the working class.

So perhaps it&#39;s hasty to call you a racist, but you certainly seem to be supporting a racist campaign of state-terror and repression.

I wouldn&#39;t like to wake up to a police raid followed by a bullet wound to the torso. My sympathy goes out to the poor guy.

Andy Bowden
17th June 2006, 23:43
So far there is not one shred of evidence these men were Islamist terrorists, therefore the shooting can only be condemned by Socialists - to take any other line is to tacticly condone it.

Vinny Rafarino
18th June 2006, 03:04
Originally posted by Jello+Jun 17 2006, 12:37 PM--> (Jello @ Jun 17 2006, 12:37 PM) Don&#39;t worry guys, Bill is just a prejudiced Stalinist; you don&#39;t have to listen to him. [/b]
What makes you think I am a Stalinist? Try thinking before you speak.


additives free
Bill, your comments are completely inappropriate. As revolutionaries, we don&#39;t want to destroy people for their religious beliefs, we just want to destroy the religious institutions, and faith, or the conditions that lead to this misunderstanding of the world, as YTKMX said.


Luckily for me, opinions from bleeding heart liberal "leftists" are not worth air that carries them.

Revolutions are won through violence, period.


So perhaps it&#39;s hasty to call you a racist, but you certainly seem to be supporting a racist campaign of state-terror and repression.


State-terror and repression of a primative superstition? You betcha&#33;


So perhaps it&#39;s hasty to call you a racist

Only a fool with an IQ under 40 would call me a racist.

Forward Union
18th June 2006, 12:35
Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 18 2006, 12:05 AM
Luckily for me, opinions from bleeding heart liberal "leftists" are not worth air that carries them.

Revolutions are won through violence, period.

Im normally accused of being somewhat too radical, opposing political parties, reform, and any halfway measures, this insult is a refreshing change :)


State-terror and repression of a primative superstition? You betcha&#33;

So you admit support for capitalist state repression?


Only a fool with an IQ under 40 would call me a racist.

And I didn&#39;t call you one, but I can understand the sentiments.

Kamraten
18th June 2006, 16:08
Your disgusting, a innocent man get shot to death infront of his wife, someone probably lost a father and someone else a son. what the fuck is wrong with you. Are you saying that the elimination of religion should go threw massgraves, your saying that millions of children deservs to die becouse they are born into a muslim belief? whats your middle name Adolf or hitler?

For the topic, all theese storys is just to remind us that all muslim/arabs are potential terrorists, its propaganda, or mayby police practice.
Example, the london raid where some arabs acording to the police and media were producing chemical weapons, were highlighted as breaking news&#33; on the tv, but when it accualy turned out that there were no kind of explosives nor chemicals to be found it was hardly reported. And they even shot one of them.

People will remember that there were an raid on terrorists producing chemical weaponds, not that they were innocent. its just a mind game.

Hit The North
19th June 2006, 01:00
Example, the london raid where some arabs acording to the police and media were producing chemical weapons, were highlighted as breaking news&#33; on the tv, but when it accualy turned out that there were no kind of explosives nor chemicals to be found it was hardly reported. And they even shot one of them.

To be honest, the brothers got a lot of press coverage after the shooting and their release.

Many parts of the bourgeois press in the UK are worried about these kind of police actions, and there is a debate taking place in the country between the bigots who want to unleash the police on any &#39;suspect&#39; immigrant population and those more liberal elements who want to safeguard citizens rights against unusual police aggression.

Seems that Bill wants to side with the bigots. He may not be a Stalinist and he may not be a racist, so I&#39;d love to know what his excuse is.

Severian
19th June 2006, 01:22
Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 15 2006, 02:32 PM
As far as I know, in America, the veil of "counter terrorism" has been used to disguise routine attacks on immigrants in general. That is, those affected, are not specifically Muslim....and though there are no doubt instances of the specific targeting of Muslims, the general practice just seems to be the targeting of "non-white" immigrants, regardless of their superstition or lack there of.
Actually, the reverse is true.

Workplace raids by the INS, for example, are way down since 9/11. The Bush administration policy is to increase enforcement at the border, but mostly leave alone those already here. Even to look for some way to regularize their status and maybe start up a guest worker program.

The increase in border control and decrease in internal deportations flows logically from the ruling class&#39; need for cheap labor combined with its desire to increase police control during the "war on terrorism."

It&#39;s people from the Middle East and South Asia - that is, from mostly-Muslim countries - who were rounded up and held without trial in the wake of 9/11, and have been the target of a number of highly dubious prosecutions since. I&#39;m not aware of any non-Muslims attacked in the same way.

The only U.S. citizens detained without trial were definitely Muslims - one of them a convert (Padilla), so clearly it wasn&#39;t even his national origin which was the issue.

(I might point out, as a side point, that your constant use of "superstition" is an irrational argument. You&#39;re trying for a negative emotional response to it, or you could just use "religion." Either the two words mean the same thing, in which case your insistence on always using "superstition" adds no rational argument. Or if there is any difference, it may even reduce accuracy since "superstition" would apply more to earlier beliefs than to the main world religions.)

****

More importantly: does it matter why exactly they were targeted? Does it matter exactly which kind of discrimination is involved here? No.

All kinds of discrimination must be opposed. Those targeted for persecution must be defended, for the sake of the unity of the working class.

Whether "racism" is exactly the right word...is a pretty minor quibble.

Severian
19th June 2006, 01:24
Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 17 2006, 02:44 PM
So far there is not one shred of evidence these men were Islamist terrorists, therefore the shooting can only be condemned by Socialists - to take any other line is to tacticly condone it.
As you say, but I&#39;d add: Even if there was, execution without trial is unacceptable.

Andy Bowden
19th June 2006, 03:50
As you say, but I&#39;d add: Even if there was, execution without trial is unacceptable.

Yeah thats correct. The Brit security forces started in Gibraltar with 4 IRA volunteers - they&#39;ve now progressed to innocent people on tube trains.

Vinny Rafarino
19th June 2006, 17:59
Originally posted by additives free+--> (additives free)So you admit support for capitalist state repression?[/b]

Since you missed it the last time, I will restate it: there is a big difference "caring less" about an issue and "actively supporting" it.

So, quit attempting to bait me into another asinine argument.


Originally posted by the worst speller in [email protected]
Your disgusting, a innocent man get shot to death infront of his wife, someone probably lost a father and someone else a son. what the fuck is wrong with you. Are you saying that the elimination of religion should go threw massgraves, your saying that millions of children deservs to die becouse they are born into a muslim belief? whats your middle name Adolf or hitler?

It appears that your level of reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired. I suggest you re-read the article, that is if you even bothered to read it at all....

I was waiting for some kid to start tossing around the "fascist" crap. Now that the other kid&#39;s "racist" trip has been scoffed at by his "comrades", what&#39;s left?


severian
All kinds of discrimination must be opposed. Those targeted for persecution must be defended, for the sake of the unity of the working class.

The ruling class thanks you for your support. Make sure the executioner gives you a hearty handshake before the axe falls.