Is child labor evil?

[overlord]

It has recently come to my attention that some softies on this board consider child labor to be some sort of evil injustice perpetrated by those who universally stomp on human rights, thats right, the capitalists. :rolleyes:

Personally, I consider there to be nothing morally wrong with the principle of child labor. Consider the ungrateful little brats who leave school at 15 to join the workforce. Can it not be argued that the nanny state has categorically wasted resources on these types? Exactly how will they employ their schooling in the workforce? Learning to read and count is something which can be accomplished in 2 years. Why waste ten? Consider the lost years of production whose use might lift many families out of poverty. In the socialist state, children have indeed turned from being an asset into a burden.

And now consider the benefits of this system. Think of the lost income acrued to parents whose children could otherwise be gainfully employed in the labor force. This could be an extra income stream to otherwise struggling single mothers who would otherwise have to rely upon an unhelpful and often callous buerocracy. Consider also the epidemic obesity endemic in the United States' children, whose sufferers will undoubtedly experience health problems - problems which could be alliviated if only capitalism is allowed to take its course and allow children into the workforce so that exercise and enterprise might take the place of laziness, perdition and truancy. Discuss.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Ok first of all work is not equal to work. alot of the child labor in the world happens to take place in mines, sweatshops of other facilitys that damage the childrens body alot, more than a grown up for example. Also the children cant defend themselves against it.


Also reading and counting might be accomplished in two years, but physics? higher math? biology? etc. i dont know if you live in a feudal society but if your kind of "education" took place in any of the industrialised countries, soon all houses will break down, nuclear facilities will go kaboom etc. because it takes years of study to really understand and be able to apply knowlegde about most modern work.

The work you dont have to study for is mostly being replaced by mashines more and more so there isnt any use for your argument.

Not to mention that children need friends, play time etc. to develop their personality and social abilities.

At last... why should we produce more with child labor when we can produce everything we need without it?

I guess your argument is plain provocation so i stop writting here and do something more fun ^_^

[Raisa]

CHild labor isnt really really bad.

Any labor in capitalism is bad, but I think labor is a learning experiance.
I see nothing wrong with kids cleaning their communities.
I think in a communist society everyone will do things that clean the area and of course children will participate if they want.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Cleaning the area around you is also today not considered child labor. its only child labor if you earn money for it

[BobKKKindle$]

Child Labour (Children producing commodities or providing a service - most commonly sexual intercourse - for a wage) exists primarily in the third world as a result of the system of Capitalism. Members of the Proletariat do not own or control the means of production, and so are forced to sell their labour power as a commodity to survive.The Wages payed by multinationals to Adult labourers are so limited, that children are forced to supplment the family income with their own earnings through selling their labour power in order to maintain a decent standard of living. It is very simple. Capitalism.

When Socialism triumphs, the wage labour system will be abolished, and with it, Child labour. Children will be able to spend their time as they wish - probably learning about the things that interest them. The parents would not have to worry about paying the bills every month because, again, wage labour does not exist. I think we can safely assume that Children will not choose to provide sexual favours to tourists They might be involved in some community aid work, but nothing as despicable as the Child labour we see exisitng

As RYV said, it appears that once again you are trying to gain attention with absrd statements that actually reveal the underlying inhumanity of Capitalism. Whether you consider Child labour to be Humane or Not depends on one simple choice - What is more important to you - Commodities and profit or Human needs, wants, and quality of living? We know the option you side with Overlord.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by overlord
Consider the ungrateful little brats...

Yeah, goddam teenagers who flirt with communism. :o


Consider also the epidemic obesity endemic in the United States' children, whose sufferers will undoubtedly experience health problems - problems which could be alleviated if only capitalism is allowed to take its course and allow children into the workforce so that exercise and enterprise might take the place of laziness, perdition and truancy. Discuss.

Yeah, that "perdition" stuff is a "serious problem", eh? :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bezdomni]

No way! Then JohnnyC (or whatever his name is) couldn't ever take his children to their little league games because they'd be too busy working in the coal mines.

[Tungsten]

bobantionette

Child Labour (Children producing commodities or providing a service - most commonly sexual intercourse - for a wage) exists primarily in the third world as a result of the system of Capitalism. Members of the Proletariat do not own or control the means of production,
There are no "means of production" to control in the third world. If there are any, they're extremely primitive and they'd be no better off if they did share them.

and so are forced to sell their labour power as a commodity to survive
If they're supposedly in the same position as us, why aren't our children selling themselves on the streets?

The Wages payed by multinationals to Adult labourers are so limited, that children are forced to supplment the family income with their own earnings through selling their labour power in order to maintain a decent standard of living.
Imagine what it was like before the multinationals arrived.

When Socialism triumphs, the wage labour system will be abolished, and with it, Child labour.
Let's hope it doesn't happen in the third world, otherwise we'll be seeing mass starvation caused by lack of people producing food. 43.5% of the African population are under 15 years old. Banning child labour would effictively halve the workforce.

Children will be able to spend their time as they wish
Eating cake, no doubt.

- probably learning about the things that interest them.
From who? There are hardly any schools and few people with the ability to teach in them.

The parents would not have to worry about paying the bills every month
The third world doesn't have much of an infrastructure to maintain, so that's unlikely to bother them.

Whether you consider Child labour to be Humane or Not depends on one simple choice - What is more important to you - Commodities and profit or Human needs, wants, and quality of living?
Reality or your utopian daydreaming- I know which one I consider more important.

[BobKKKindle$]

There are no "means of production" to control in the third world. If there are any, they're extremely primitive and they'd be no better off if they did share them.

The fact that you view the 'third world' as a desolate wilderness with not so much as a single factory shows just how ignorant and American you are Tungsten. Either that, or you do not understand simple economic concepts. Technically, a plough counts as part of the MoP. Even the poorest nations in the world have ploughs. However, In this context, I was referring to Machinery used to produce commodities China is part of the third world, yet produces a huge portion of the world's manufactured goods. Where do you think these goods come from?! Thin air?! No, they are produced through the use of machinery and labour power. And if the workers controlled the MoP, then they would be highly unlikely to extract their own surplus labour as occurs in Countries such as Vietnam and China on the behalf of TNCs. I will admit that Social ownership of the MoP is only effective with a certain level of development where the economy can support a socialist system, but TNCs are in no way 'required' to produce commodities. Just look at the government nationalisation of the Oil industry In Venezuela, or Copper in Chile. Now, I know that nationalisation does not = Socialisation. But thinking that western executives are necessary for the production process is simply condescending.


If they're supposedly in the same position as us, why aren't our children selling themselves on the streets

They are not in the same position as us. What ever gave you that idea? Are you and your parents payed 8 Cents an hour, as many Vietnamese Workers are? I think not. Child labour is caused by insufficent income to survive from the parent's labour. Our parents have sufficent income. This question is absurd.


Let's hope it doesn't happen in the third world

Socialism will not triumph in Countries that are primarily based in Agricultural production. This is clearly analysed in Marx's Historical materialism. Agricultural production rarely operates under Capitalism - it is genreally the case that farmers own the MoP, except in backward cases where sharecropping (landlords) is practised. Socialism will only triumph through the actions of wage labourers - In marx's time, the industrial proletariat. But when it triumphs in the First World, you can be sure that the third world will not languish in poverty for long.


From who? There are hardly any schools and few people with the ability to teach in them

Yes. The Government is often more interested in defence or attracting foreign investement than providing education. What is your point?! I accept that a Socialist society will not be achieved from day one, particuarly in LEDCs. Just as Lenin launched Literacy Programs, A Socialist government will immiedietely engage in a frenzy of construction to achieve an economy that can support a Socialist system - Public libraries, Production Complexes, Infrastructure - Stalin did it, so can we. Just without the absurd bloodhsed.


Eating cake, no doubt

Cake is a bourgeois extravagence! :lol:

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

The fact that you view the 'third world' as a desolate wilderness with not so much as a single factory shows just how ignorant and American you are Tungsten.
I'm not American, you fool. I've told you that already, assuming you bother to read my posts.

Either that, or you do not understand simple economic concepts. Technically, a plough counts as part of the MoP. Even the poorest nations in the world have ploughs.
Here's more proof that you don't read my posts.

However, In this context, I was referring to Machinery used to produce commodities China is part of the third world, yet produces a huge portion of the world's manufactured goods.
An industrialised nation is not the third world.

They are not in the same position as us. What ever gave you that idea?
You said that capitalism was to blame for child prostitution. I asked why, in this country, we do not have it, even though this country is capitalist.

Are you and your parents payed 8 Cents an hour, as many Vietnamese Workers are? I think not.
The cost of living in proportionally lower.

Our parents have sufficent income.
How come we do and they don't?

[Comrade-Z]

And now consider the benefits of this system. Think of the lost income acrued to parents whose children could otherwise be gainfully employed in the labor force.

British capitalists found out through practice that a lot of their child labor was, in the long run, harmful to profit-making because it created a prematurely crippled, diseased, exhausted workforce. Productivity dropped. Labor could not reproduce itself. Some of these primitive capitalist reforms were, in fact, enacted in order to benefit the capitalist class (as well as, incidentally, the working class).

Children doing what they want--the horrors! :o

Actually, it's rather unfair that compulsory child labor is singled out as particularly bad. It's not very different from any other kind of compulsory labor.

And under capitalism, laboring for some master is, for all practical purposes, compulsory for the working class.

What we're really interested in is a society where children and adults can be free of compulsory labor and labor in a self-directed and non-hierarchical manner.


You said that capitalism was to blame for child prostitution. I asked why, in this country, we do not have it, even though this country is capitalist.

During our "age of reform," we in the advanced capitalist countries have been granted temporary concessions on the issue of child labor partly because productivity was increasing at a great enough rate that the ruling class could afford these concessions in order to hedge against revolt.

However, there are signs that the ruling class can't afford some of these reforms any more. Perhaps overlord's comments are straws in the wind of what to expect under late, decaying capitalism.

Do you think children (or their parents) will find this turn of events "fun"?

[Tungsten]

Comrade-Z

During our "age of reform," we in the advanced capitalist countries have been granted temporary concessions on the issue of child labor partly because productivity was increasing at a great enough rate that the ruling class could afford these concessions in order to hedge against revolt.
I know where you got this from, but there was never any danger of revolt- at the time child labour was considered normal and few people made a fuss over it. Considering the amount of time these laws have been in place, I'd hardly call them temporary either.

However, there are signs that the ruling class can't afford some of these reforms any more.
What makes you think that and what proof do you have that repealing these laws is on the cards?

[Comrade-Z]

I know where you got this from, but there was never any danger of revolt

Oh? :lol: Perhaps if you've learned a "sanitized" version of American and European history around the turn of the century, you might think that.

So the Paris Commune of 1871, the "Great Upheaval" and St. Louis Commune of 1877, the Chicago general strike and Haymarket Riot of 1886, the Seattle general strike of 1919, the Sparticist Uprising in Germany--these were all insignificant events that didn't frighten the capitalist class in the least?


What makes you think that and what proof do you have that repealing these laws is on the cards?

Well, all the other kinds of labor reforms are rapidly being dismantled in the advanced capitalist countries. Business is being de-regulated. Privatization. You know, the whole neo-liberal paradigm? Evidently, if we are to judge by overlord's comments, the question of child labor has become "fair game" too.

[Janus]

The problem wasn't just with child labor itself but the whole institution. Child labor quickly became the most evidently terrible part because the employers were exploiting them so much and subjecting them to such torturous conditions.

I thought most capitalists recognized that. This has to do with the whole rhetoric about giving every child an equal opportunity.

Besides, if you consider those below 18 to be children, then, some of them are working in the US.

[overlord]

RaiseYaVoice:



Ok first of all work is not equal to work. alot of the child labor in the world happens to take place in mines, sweatshops of other facilitys that damage the childrens body alot, more than a grown up for example. Also the children cant defend themselves against it.

All work damages peoples bodies in minor ways. Shouldn't some of the burden be taken off adults who have enough on their plate? And what do you mean children can't defend themselves? We're off at work not a boxing ring?


Also reading and counting might be accomplished in two years, but physics? higher math? biology? etc. i dont know if you live in a feudal society but if your kind of "education" took place in any of the industrialised countries, soon all houses will break down, nuclear facilities will go kaboom etc. because it takes years of study to really understand and be able to apply knowlegde about most modern work.

I don't mean scrap education altogether. Just scrap compulsory socialist education. Its a shocker having to learn 3 years of work stretched over 12 years. Learning the same stuff year after year after year.


The work you dont have to study for is mostly being replaced by mashines more and more so there isnt any use for your argument.

And someone needs to operate those machines? Production lines still exist?


Not to mention that children need friends, play time etc. to develop their personality and social abilities.

:wub: :wub: AWWWWWW! The poor itsy-cutie kiddies need some fun time! :wub: How sweet? Let them goof of until they're adults and then throw them into work without any skills?


At last... why should we produce more with child labor when we can produce everything we need without it?

We need to pay lower wages to survive and adults don't like lower wages.

COMRADZ:


British capitalists found out through practice that a lot of their child labor was, in the long run, harmful to profit-making because it created a prematurely crippled, diseased, exhausted workforce. Productivity dropped. Labor could not reproduce itself. Some of these primitive capitalist reforms were, in fact, enacted in order to benefit the capitalist class (as well as, incidentally, the working class).

Compassionate capitalism eh? Who woulda thought?


Children doing what they want--the horrors!

Children working! :o --the horror! The sheer terror of it numbs me with grief!! :o


And under capitalism, laboring for some master is, for all practical purposes, compulsory for the working class.

What we're really interested in is a society where children and adults can be free of compulsory labor and labor in a self-directed and non-hierarchical manner.

Excellent! Lets all starve to death! YAY!



During our "age of reform," we in the advanced capitalist countries have been granted temporary concessions on the issue of child labor partly because productivity was increasing at a great enough rate that the ruling class could afford these concessions in order to hedge against revolt.

Actually, keeping the whole family in the factory stopped revolt. Families were the most reliable workers. This system survived for generations. Its as soon as they started banning child labor that everything went pear-shaped and this socialism thing started.



However, there are signs that the ruling class can't afford some of these reforms any more. Perhaps overlord's comments are straws in the wind of what to expect under late, decaying capitalism.

Oh yeah, not again! :rolleyes: Capitalism is decaying! Evidence?



Do you think children (or their parents) will find this turn of events "fun"?

It doesn't matter what they think. It will be up to the parents. Children don't want to go to school. Do you think they find it fun under your system?

And how can we ignore the untapped resource in terms of potential energy latent in obese kiddies? Put them to work! What's more productive, a factory or boot camp?


EDIT: Oh and how come i've been warned for 'homophobic language' hedgehog? If I'm a homophobe that's news to me... :huh: Can't you give me a warning for a proper reason?

[Tungsten]

Comrade-Z

Oh? Perhaps if you've learned a "sanitized" version of American and European history around the turn of the century, you might think that.

So the Paris Commune of 1871, the "Great Upheaval" and St. Louis Commune of 1877, the Chicago general strike and Haymarket Riot of 1886, the Seattle general strike of 1919, the Sparticist Uprising in Germany--these were all insignificant events that didn't frighten the capitalist class in the least?
A commune is hardly a revolt. Why would that frighten anyone? What makes you think that the strikes were about child labour?

Well, all the other kinds of labor reforms are rapidly being dismantled in the advanced capitalist countries. Business is being de-regulated. Privatization. You know, the whole neo-liberal paradigm?
No, I'm not familiar with it. All I've noticed is taxation going up instead of down and the welfare state and government getting larger instead of smaller.

[BobKKKindle$]

Why would that frighten anyone

It Represents a threat to the established system and the interests of the ruling class. That is why some would consider it frighteningly. Both the Shanghai and Paris communes were demolished through the use of military force - the fact that the the ruling class was willing to use its armed wing clearly signifies a threat to Capitalism

Some Examples of the reforms under the Paris Commune:

The right of employees to take over and run an enterprise if it were deserted by its owner
The abolition of night work in the hundreds of Paris bakeries
The separation of church and state

Pretty Radical at the time, and even now.


What makes you think that the strikes were about child labour

They Were Against Capitalism. Capitalism involves Wage labour. Wage labour involves child labour. CHild labour was of course not the only factor, rather it was a revolt against an entire economic system, not a small part of it.

[Comrade-Z]

AWWWWWW! The poor itsy-cutie kiddies need some fun time! How sweet? Let them goof of until they're adults

You call having fun and developing a personality and friendships "goofing off." I guess you really do want all kids and workers to be nothing more than mindless robots.

Because, hey, robots can work 24 hours a day. They don't need "fun." They don't get "uppity" and go on strike. All they need are electricity and maintenance. Every capitalists dream.

It reminds me of a cartoon about WWI where this army inspector is looking over a huge, muscular soldier which doesn't have a head (and thus a brain). The caption reads something like "Every general's dream soldier."


No, I'm not familiar with it. All I've noticed is taxation going up instead of down and the welfare state and government getting larger instead of smaller.

Most of the spending increases are going towards the military sector, though. With the social services and labor sector, spending is either declining, stagnant, or barely keeping up with inflation and population increase.

[red team]

What's more we already have the technical capability to develop robots to do repetitive mindless tasks. All this is off the shelf stuff done in the 70's and 80's. No new R&D is needed. What we can do is develop robots and force former cappies to work along side them in the automated factories of the future. A robot can work 24 hours as long as electricity is supplied. Similarly, if the former cappie slacks off we can increase the voltage on the attached electrodes to his body.

Just a thought...

[KC]

There are no "means of production" to control in the third world.

http://www.country-data.com/frd/cs/pakistan/pk03_07a.jpg

[Tungsten]

red team

What's more we already have the technical capability to develop robots to do repetitive mindless tasks. All this is off the shelf stuff done in the 70's and 80's. No new R&D is needed. What we can do is develop robots and force former cappies to work along side them in the automated factories of the future. A robot can work 24 hours as long as electricity is supplied. Similarly, if the former cappie slacks off we can increase the voltage on the attached electrodes to his body.

Just a thought...
It must be so difficult for you to type whilst wearing a strait jacket.

Khayembii Communique
Pakistan, like India is semi-industrialised.

[KC]

Pakistan, like India is semi-industrialised.

Both of which are "third world". Both of which contain means of production that aren't "extremely primitive".

[Tungsten]

Khayembii Communique

Both of which contain means of production that aren't "extremely primitive".
Then they're not really the third world. Perhaps the second.

[BobKKKindle$]

Then they're not really the third world. Perhaps the second

India is located 127th on the HDI listing, and has a GDP per Capita of $3,344 (122nd). I would not describe that as anything other than the third world.

A Picture of 'extremely primitive' MoP in Vietnam:

http://www.whitemountain.com.au/images/Factory_Photos/factory_2_floor.jpg

[overlord]

Hmmmm, looks pretty efficient to me. When I was 18 I was thinking of moving to indonesia to spend around AU$400,000 starting an outsourcing factory in Indonesia for fashion labels and labour was only 20cUS/hour. Then s11 happened and now the bastards hate Aussies. Oh well, let them be unemployed.

My factory was going to be the best and I would have made big bucks if I could start my own label like the Bennaton family. Oh well.

Anyway mate, that place looks pretty efficient to me. That's how you make clothing in a cheap country.

[Ian]

Indonesians don't hate Australian's, they hate your kind, what kind of a sick dream is it to set up a factory to pay people 20 cents an hour in a job you would never do?

Tell them you are a descendant of a WW2 Australian veteran and you will be accorded respect by the older Indonesian's for various reasons.

[overlord]

F%$# YOU. I am Ruling Class. I will do what I want thank you very much. Now those Indonesians can get nothing. I am into Sharemarket now since it is about to collapse hence bargains, but if I did set up that factory I would hire only 18 year olds so I could screw them twice. Haha.

[Ian]

Are you from Double Bay or something? you seem like a wanker

[ummProfessional]

if i had a shoe company for example, it would be the smart thing for me to set up a factory in say freaking Bangladesh or something, obviously because labor there is cheap, and it should be..

1st. because they have no skills, they are pretty much performing jobs that can be done by anyone here and in the moon, and plus IT'S CHEAPER!! and it should be like this also because they are from BANGLADESH!! obviously if i set up my factory in say Scotland i should be paying the Scots more because you can't compare the labor force of a 3rd world country with one of the 1st world..plus i would feel great about setting up a factory in a 3rd world country, because i know i would be employing people who need employment, and i know even if it was 20 cents a day it still would be more than what they earned if i wasn't there...now since im a generous person i would pay them higher because i care , but if Overlord doesn't want to pay them more thats his choice, its his fucking company, he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants with it, just like i have the right to pay my workers 100000000k a day he has the right to pay them 1 cent a day , i just don't understand why you guys think you have the right to decide on private businesse it's ridiculous...

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 01:12 AM
if i had a shoe company for example, it would be the smart thing for me to set up a factory in say freaking Bangladesh or something, obviously because labor there is cheap, and it should be..

1st. because they have no skills, they are pretty much performing jobs that can be done by anyone here and in the moon, and plus IT'S CHEAPER!! and it should be like this also because they are from BANGLADESH!! obviously if i set up my factory in say Scotland i should be paying the Scots more because you can't compare the labor force of a 3rd world country with one of the 1st world..plus i would feel great about setting up a factory in a 3rd world country, because i know i would be employing people who need employment, and i know even if it was 20 cents a day it still would be more than what they earned if i wasn't there...now since im a generous person i would pay them higher because i care , but if Overlord doesn't want to pay them more thats his choice, its his fucking company, he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants with it, just like i have the right to pay my workers 100000000k a day he has the right to pay them 1 cent a day , i just don't understand why you guys think you have the right to decide on private businesse it's ridiculous...
Its absurd that you would start the factory, the workers would make the stuff, and yet you would get most of the money selling stuff that you did not even make in the first place.

[red team]

What's more we already have the technical capability to develop robots to do repetitive mindless tasks. All this is off the shelf stuff done in the 70's and 80's. No new R&D is needed. What we can do is develop robots and force former cappies to work along side them in the automated factories of the future. A robot can work 24 hours as long as electricity is supplied. Similarly, if the former cappie slacks off we can increase the voltage on the attached electrodes to his body.

Just a thought...

It must be so difficult for you to type whilst wearing a strait jacket.


Not at all. This is not as insane as it sounds. It's a well known fact that muscles respond to electrical stimulation by contracting. If an electrical current is applied to a disected frog leg the muscles in the frog leg twitches. That laboratory session in biology class taught me well. Now if we generalise a bit, what can induce involuntary muscle contraction in frogs can also induce involuntary muscle contraction in human cappies.

With enough electrodes attached to enough muscles of the human body and the appropriate current to induce muscle contraction we can virtually turn the human body into a electrically stimulated string puppet. computer systems to regulate the amount of current fed into each muscle of the body can take care of the rest. If the subject opposes the current by attempting to autonomously move his/her muscle themselves, a stronger current can be applied to drown out the electrical stimulation provided by the human nervous system thus making autonomous movement very difficult to nearly impossible.

As for biological inputs and outputs, this can be simplified with feeding tubes inserted directly into the stomache and output waste tubes connected to the anus and penis/uretha thus rendering the need for manual nutritional intake or waste expulsion unnecessary.

Quite a brilliant technical solution wouldn't you say BioMech. production unit #30416? which will be your official machine number designation once you are fully outfitted and installed into our new manufacturing plant.

[overlord]

F%$# you all. :angry: I want child labor and its because of bastards like you that this world has gone soft and If I don't get my child labor, well, I'll just have to learn French properly and go to Vietnam where I only have to pay like 8c and hour and then you'll all be sorry you messed with the social system. Losers. Why has the world abandoned this in first world countries? Do I have to move to some shithole dictatorship or run a fucking backyard sweatshop hiring illegals to actually run a successful textile industry from a first world country? Do any of you know how competitive it is? Its a 6% a year industry. Why not just leave the cash in the fucking bank? I hate you all. :angry: :angry:

[red team]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 06:21 AM
F%$# you all. :angry: I want child labor and its because of bastards like you that this world has gone soft and If I don't get my child labor, well, I'll just have to learn French properly and go to Vietnam where I only have to pay like 8c and hour and then you'll all be sorry you messed with the social system. Losers. Why has the world abandoned this in first world countries? Do I have to move to some shithole dictatorship or run a fucking backyard sweatshop hiring illegals to actually run a successful textile industry from a first world country? Do any of you know how competitive it is? Its a 6% a year industry. Why not just leave the cash in the fucking bank? I hate you all. :angry: :angry:
Mmmm.... You should be my prime experimental subject for developing an electrically-stimulated, computer-controlled string puppet... :D

[overlord]

Mmmm.... You should be my prime experimental subject for developing an electrically-stimulated, computer-controlled string puppet...

All due respect Redteam but the results of your experiment will be superfluous when you realise you could have just used a whip.

[peaccenicked]

I reckon the world has gone soft but not on kids but on our very own home made variety of village idiot-Overlord- pity we dont have a bog you can splash about in.

[overlord]

You know what's wrong with you people? Its what's wrong with the world. Youre all WEAK! Weak as water. There was recently a capitalist in the south pacific who kidnapped 50 workers from asia and kept them chained up him his factory working them continuously whilst having them whipped and starved. Now That's the kind of enterprise i'm talking about. The world needs more of it. No messing around with wages or any of that nonsence.

Oh and RedTeam, ur an evil genius like me. :) But i'm not as evil. You an engineer or something? You stay away from me pal! :o

[Tungsten]

red team

Quite a brilliant technical solution wouldn't you say BioMech. production unit #30416?
Uncle Adolf would be proud. Now hurry back to which ever padded cell you escaped from before they cut off your internet access.

[Comrade J]

Cappies. Imagine this.
You were born in the Democratic Republic of the Congo 8 years ago, you have an 11 year old brother and you had a baby sister, but she died the year before of disease. You live in a hut your father created for you out of metal sheets and mud, and he is now dying and cannot work, in fact he can hardly even walk, and your mother struggles to feed you all, care for her dying husband and she prays and cries over her baby's grave every morning. She does not have an easy life.
Every morning at about 5am, you and your brother walk for just over 2 hours to work for the day. On the way, you past some school children carrying bags, whose parents can afford to send them to school, which ironically is very close to your house.
You arrive at your destination, which is an old 'copper mine,' though it is nothing more than a huge mound of rock beside a toxic lake. You climb up, barefooted, as you have done for the past 5 days in a row, and begin to dig with your bare hands, alongside hundreds of other children. Some children fall down and break bones, yet can recieve no medical help, so their families do not get to eat as they have no money. Fortunately this hasn't happened to you yet. The intense African sun is beating down your back from then until 6pm when you finish. You take the rocks you have collected and on a sheet of metal, you wash them in the knee-deep grey toxic lake, full of carcinogenic chemicals. There, you extract the bits of copper you have accumulated through the day, and you take it to the site leader, who will pay you the equivalent of 50p (92 US Cents) if you have collected enough. If you have not collected enough, as is often the case, you don't get paid enough to have an evening meal, and you go to bed hungry. You hope the next day will be better, but it becomes even harder as you have had no food.
The company you work for is Canadian, and the copper is used in televisions, computers, televisions, etc. for which they make billions. Soon your father will be dead, a man you have idolised for as far back as your memory goes, and on his deathbed he tells you to take care of your mother, and wants you to be happy.

Now think back to what sort of life you had when you were 8. Did you have to get up every morning to dig with your hands into rock for a whole day, every day? Did an injury or bout of sickness mean you didn't get to eat that day?

This is the result of capitalism, and how the f**k you can justify it with any argument at all is beyond me, you must be incredibly deluded or sick in the head.

[Tungsten]

Comrade J

Cappies. Imagine this.
I live in a relatively capitalist country- far more so than Congo. If capitalism "caused" the scenario you describe, then why should I need to imagine it? I should, in theory, be living in it but I'm not. Your argument doesn't add up.

[red team]

Uncle Adolf would be proud.

Wrong dictator. I prefer Uncle Joe.

Hope to see you on my operating table...

And the worst part of this is you knowing the fact that turning you into a string puppet to work in the factory is totally unnecessary. I've seen how robotics work and learned about implementing them in advanced college level courses. But, it would be an interesting experiment in developing the totally unnecessary for the transformation of human being into a machine. Quite suitable for cappies (as victims) actually.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 06:21 AM
F%$# you all. :angry: I want child labor and its because of bastards like you that this world has gone soft and If I don't get my child labor, well, I'll just have to learn French properly and go to Vietnam where I only have to pay like 8c and hour and then you'll all be sorry you messed with the social system. Losers. Why has the world abandoned this in first world countries? Do I have to move to some shithole dictatorship or run a fucking backyard sweatshop hiring illegals to actually run a successful textile industry from a first world country? Do any of you know how competitive it is? Its a 6% a year industry. Why not just leave the cash in the fucking bank? I hate you all. :angry: :angry:
You are a mature one, aren't you? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: What are you anyway? Some kind of Randite cretin?

[ummProfessional]

Its absurd that you would start the factory, the workers would make the stuff, and yet you would get most of the money selling stuff that you did not even make in the first place.

i provide the materials, i provide the everything in the factory, i give them employment and pay them, and all they have to do is put the damn shoe together with freaking machines i bought with my own damn money, and some how they should have control over a company i started and that i run? :rolleyes: you think the damn construction workers should get more than the architecture ? you think they have the skills to design a damn building, know how much gravel should be used, how long something has to be and so on? you think those workers working for me know how to run a damn international business? give me a break man!!

i take it the people who paint airplanes should also have ownership of the damn plane huh? hahaha :lol:


You are a mature one, aren't you? What are you anyway? Some kind of Randite cretin?

WOW!!! that ought to piss someone off :huh: or was it an insult? eitherway King Overlord probably will put you in the dungeons for a while...

[Comrade J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 03:46 PM
Comrade J

Cappies. Imagine this.
I live in a relatively capitalist country- far more so than Congo. If capitalism "caused" the scenario you describe, then why should I need to imagine it? I should, in theory, be living in it but I'm not. Your argument doesn't add up.
Please tell me you're not serious....... :huh:

I've heard some laughable stuff from the Restricted Members on here, but this pretty much takes the Gold medal.
I live in a capitalist country as well, and I have not experienced this either... how in the world does that constitute for a logical argument? (With you being a bit simple, I should point out that this question is rheotorical)
Things can be different in other countries... ever been on a plane?

You live in a capitalist country, and see some of the effects of capitalism, and perhaps you benefit from some of them. However, in other countries, there are different effects of it! Labour is cheap and regulations are not tight, so the capitalists can make more money, which is all they care about! :o

These children work all day, every day for a meagre wage, and there is no escape from it. They do not own the land or the tools they use, yet the people who do not do the work, but sell the commodities, earn billions. This is capitalism. I'm sure even some of the brighter restricted members would admit this, only they would probably in favour of it.

[JimmyC]

It's really simple:

Where the work is something to earn a living, it's evil in that it deprives a child a childhood.

Where the work is community oriented, it's fine.

Where it's to make a little money to learn the lesson of responsibility and the value of hard work to achieve an end, gradual inclusion (a few hours a week) is a good thing.

What we have now in New York is this sort of thing. It's the best of both worlds. Which pretty much sums up NY anyways!

Ha!

[overlord]

These children work all day, every day for a meagre wage, and there is no escape from it. They do not own the land or the tools they use, yet the people who do not do the work, but sell the commodities, earn billions. This is capitalism. I'm sure even some of the brighter restricted members would admit this, only they would probably in favour of it.

That's right. That's the way it should be. The strong exploit the weak. The weak are destroyed. The beautiful people survive. Something wrong with this? Under communism, the strong and beautiful capitalists are destroyed and the weak as piss inbreeds swamp the genetic population. GREAT!

And as for this....


You were born in the Democratic Republic of the Congo 8 years ago
There's a shining example of capitalism for you.


, you have an 11 year old brother and you had a baby sister, but she died the year before of disease.
So what's that got to do with capitlaism?


You live in a hut your father created for you out of metal sheets and mud, and he is now dying and cannot work, in fact he can hardly even walk, and your mother struggles to feed you all, care for her dying husband and she prays and cries over her baby's grave every morning.
So what? Boo fucking Hoo. :lol:



She does not have an easy life.
What do you expect in the middle of the jungle?



Every morning at about 5am, you and your brother walk for just over 2 hours to work for the day. On the way, you past some school children carrying bags, whose parents can afford to send them to school, which ironically is very close to your house.
Oh how evil is the United States! :lol:


You arrive at your destination, which is an old 'copper mine,' though it is nothing more than a huge mound of rock beside a toxic lake. You climb up, barefooted, as you have done for the past 5 days in a row, and begin to dig with your bare hands, alongside hundreds of other children. Some children fall down and break bones, yet can recieve no medical help, so their families do not get to eat as they have no money.
Nice to see some hard work finally. Your scenario needs some overseers though to complete the picture.



Fortunately this hasn't happened to you yet. The intense African sun is beating down your back from then until 6pm when you finish. You take the rocks you have collected and on a sheet of metal, you wash them in the knee-deep grey toxic lake, full of carcinogenic chemicals. There, you extract the bits of copper you have accumulated through the day, and you take it to the site leader, who will pay you the equivalent of 50p (92 US Cents) if you have collected enough. If you have not collected enough, as is often the case, you don't get paid enough to have an evening meal, and you go to bed hungry. You hope the next day will be better, but it becomes even harder as you have had no food.

If their work gives them nothing why did they trudge 2 hour to get there?:huh:



The company you work for is Canadian, and the copper is used in televisions, computers, televisions, etc. for which they make billions. Soon your father will be dead, a man you have idolised for as far back as your memory goes, and on his deathbed he tells you to take care of your mother, and wants you to be happy.

Boo hoo, mommy wonts us to be happy. AWWWWW :wub: HOW SWEET! NO REALLY, You're killing me! Someone pass the kleenex..please. HAHAH! LMAO

Well, I just can't stop laughing! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sounds quite efficient as well. I hope to run a mine as efficeintly as this one day using free labour and no expensive machinery. Funny post man. :lol: :lol: :lol:

and as for you..


You are a mature one, aren't you? What are you anyway? Some kind of Randite cretin?

F%$@ You and F##$ Rand. I am an ultracapitalist and I only care about making money and enjoying myself. In doing so I recognise that by participating in a competitive marketplace, I will enrich the lives of those who may choose to do business with me. Refer yourself to my dungeon in the Baron Overlord, King Raven, Emperor ummProfessional Lord Tungsten thread.

[Tungsten]

Comrade J

I've heard some laughable stuff from the Restricted Members on here, but this pretty much takes the Gold medal. I live in a capitalist country as well, and I have not experienced this either...
Point proven. There is evidently no correlation between capitalism and the effects you describe, otherwise we'd be experiencing them too. More so. Congo evidently does not have a capitalist government. The world isn't capitalist by default, you know.

(With you being a bit simple, I should point out that this question is rheotorical)
Oh hahaha. I&#39;m amazed by your wit. <_<

overlord

So what&#39;s that got to do with capitlaism?
Everyone knows that death, diseases, starvation and poverty didn&#39;t exist before capitalism.

[red team]

You are a mature one, aren&#39;t you? What are you anyway? Some kind of Randite cretin?

F%&#036;@ You and F##&#036; Rand. I am an ultracapitalist and I only care about making money and enjoying myself. In doing so I recognise that by participating in a competitive marketplace, I will enrich the lives of those who may choose to do business with me. Refer yourself to my dungeon in the Baron Overlord, King Raven, Emperor ummProfessional Lord Tungsten thread.

Oh, you do serve a useful purpose afterall, as human organ providers...

So you see cappies aren&#39;t all that bad.

[theraven]

Originally posted by Comrade J+Jun 17 2006, 01:21 AM--> (Comrade J @ Jun 17 2006, 01:21 AM)
[email protected] 16 2006, 03:46 PM
Comrade J

Cappies. Imagine this.
I live in a relatively capitalist country- far more so than Congo. If capitalism "caused" the scenario you describe, then why should I need to imagine it? I should, in theory, be living in it but I&#39;m not. Your argument doesn&#39;t add up.
Please tell me you&#39;re not serious....... :huh:

I&#39;ve heard some laughable stuff from the Restricted Members on here, but this pretty much takes the Gold medal.
I live in a capitalist country as well, and I have not experienced this either... how in the world does that constitute for a logical argument? (With you being a bit simple, I should point out that this question is rheotorical)
Things can be different in other countries... ever been on a plane?

You live in a capitalist country, and see some of the effects of capitalism, and perhaps you benefit from some of them. However, in other countries, there are different effects of it&#33; Labour is cheap and regulations are not tight, so the capitalists can make more money, which is all they care about&#33; :o

These children work all day, every day for a meagre wage, and there is no escape from it. They do not own the land or the tools they use, yet the people who do not do the work, but sell the commodities, earn billions. This is capitalism. I&#39;m sure even some of the brighter restricted members would admit this, only they would probably in favour of it. [/b]
the copper itself is not worth billions, only when it is put in Tv&#39;s and such. cooper has gone down substantily in value recently i beelive

[overlord]

QUOTE
QUOTE
You are a mature one, aren&#39;t you? What are you anyway? Some kind of Randite cretin?



F%&#036;@ You and F##&#036; Rand. I am an ultracapitalist and I only care about making money and enjoying myself. In doing so I recognise that by participating in a competitive marketplace, I will enrich the lives of those who may choose to do business with me. Refer yourself to my dungeon in the Baron Overlord, King Raven, Emperor ummProfessional Lord Tungsten thread.



Oh, you do serve a useful purpose afterall, as human organ providers...

So you see cappies aren&#39;t all that bad.
You do hate capitalists don&#39;t you? Where does this hatred come from? Is it something capitlaists have done to the world which is so bad? I guess I&#39;ll have to start searching my soul to find out why. :mellow:

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:17 AM
It has recently come to my attention that some softies on this board consider child labor to be some sort of evil injustice perpetrated by those who universally stomp on human rights, thats right, the capitalists. :rolleyes:

Personally, I consider there to be nothing morally wrong with the principle of child labor. Consider the ungrateful little brats who leave school at 15 to join the workforce. Can it not be argued that the nanny state has categorically wasted resources on these types? Exactly how will they employ their schooling in the workforce? Learning to read and count is something which can be accomplished in 2 years. Why waste ten? Consider the lost years of production whose use might lift many families out of poverty. In the socialist state, children have indeed turned from being an asset into a burden.

And now consider the benefits of this system. Think of the lost income acrued to parents whose children could otherwise be gainfully employed in the labor force. This could be an extra income stream to otherwise struggling single mothers who would otherwise have to rely upon an unhelpful and often callous buerocracy. Consider also the epidemic obesity endemic in the United States&#39; children, whose sufferers will undoubtedly experience health problems - problems which could be alliviated if only capitalism is allowed to take its course and allow children into the workforce so that exercise and enterprise might take the place of laziness, perdition and truancy. Discuss.
Children= Individuals under the age of 18, who are considered children due to a lack of ability for judgement and/or the capability for consent.

This vulnerability is why we have laws against statutory rape. Against pedophilia.

Allowing children to take actual jobs at any age below 16, and allowing them to leave school, is in principle, the same as allowing statutory rape. "If the children want to do it, let &#39;em do it&#33;"

If you hate NAMBLA, which I do, then you cannot at the same time NOT oppose child labor. Children are not capable of reasonable consent or judgement to take a serious job OR leave their educational environment. As well, they shouldn&#39;t have to need to: people ought to be able to afford to maintain this lifestyle in a healthy way. Which I know, Lord Vader, you do not support.

[overlord]

Children= Individuals under the age of 18, who are considered children due to a lack of ability for judgement and/or the capability for consent.

This vulnerability is why we have laws against statutory rape. Against pedophilia.

Allowing children to take actual jobs at any age below 16, and allowing them to leave school, is in principle, the same as allowing statutory rape. "If the children want to do it, let &#39;em do it&#33;"

Yeah i&#39;m starting to rethink this child labor thing I had going. Maybe it is evil after all?

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:37 AM

Children= Individuals under the age of 18, who are considered children due to a lack of ability for judgement and/or the capability for consent.

This vulnerability is why we have laws against statutory rape. Against pedophilia.

Allowing children to take actual jobs at any age below 16, and allowing them to leave school, is in principle, the same as allowing statutory rape. "If the children want to do it, let &#39;em do it&#33;"

Yeah i&#39;m starting to rethink this child labor thing I had going. Maybe it is evil after all?
It&#39;s the reason most capitalist countries, Europe, the US and Canada, Argentina, to name a few, have child labor laws. That&#39;s the particular reasoning. It&#39;s not distinctly a "communist" thing to oppose child labor; most nations that are developed want an educated workforce or specialized one that goes to graduate school, etc. so as to be able to intellectually and scholastically compete with other nations in various markets.

[BobKKKindle$]

Many cappies in this thread are asking why they do not encounter Child labour in their own countries (which are all More economically developed countries -MEDCS) or are saying they cannot relate to the examples that have been offered. The Reason for this is very simple.

Capitalism is a system of winners and losers. For a time, in the early stages of Capitalism, this systen of winners and losers was confinded and concentrated in the first countries were Capitalism developed - France and Britain. There were huge divides between Capitalists and workers. These countries did, as you may be aware, have child labour, during the earlier stages of development. However, as Capital and enterprise became increasingly more global and as the forces of production expanded beyong the threshold of their domestic markets, a new system of winners and losers has emerged. Not based upon classes inside states, but an international system whereby some States own and control the means of production (by which we mean that Multi nationals are based in and operated from these states) and some other states sell their raw materials, and most importantly, their labour to the winners in this internaitonal Capitalist mode. In short, exploitation has not dissappeared, but has instead been exported abroad through globalisation, in order to better the lot of workers in the advanced nations at the expense of their comrades in the less developed countries.

In one episode of the twlight zone, a militant racist finds himself in Nazi germany as a jew because of his actions. Would it not be great for overlord to wake up tommorrow as a Vietnamese child factory labourer? It would be interesting to see if he supported child labour when he has lost his bourgeois Capitalist position. You think we are soft because we place humans above profits? Just wait - you will see how bloodthirsty and vicious we can be :angry:

[overlord]

In short, exploitation has not dissappeared, but has instead been exported abroad through globalisation, in order to better the lot of workers in the advanced nations at the expense of their comrades in the less developed countries.


I suppose this is true. Big corporations move over to the third world where they can get cheap labor and there are fewer controls and worker protections and they can fall into the pockets of corrupt third world rulers who enjoy exploiting their people.


Would it not be great for overlord to wake up tommorrow as a Vietnamese child factory labourer? It would be interesting to see if he supported child labour when he has lost his bourgeois Capitalist position.

Now that you put it that way, I suppose I can see where you&#39;re coming from. :( Makes me ashamed at some of the things I have written. :blush:

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:05 PM

In short, exploitation has not dissappeared, but has instead been exported abroad through globalisation, in order to better the lot of workers in the advanced nations at the expense of their comrades in the less developed countries.


I suppose this is true. Big corporations move over to the third world where they can get cheap labor and there are fewer controls and worker protections and they can fall into the pockets of corrupt third world rulers who enjoy exploiting their people.


Would it not be great for overlord to wake up tommorrow as a Vietnamese child factory labourer? It would be interesting to see if he supported child labour when he has lost his bourgeois Capitalist position.

Now that you put it that way, I suppose I can see where you&#39;re coming from. :( Makes me ashamed at some of the things I have written. :blush:

Look, personally I&#39;ve disagreed with you in some places, but...

but do not be ashamed. Apologize, but don&#39;t ever be ashamed to question someone or something. As well, you have every right to voice your opinion, given that opinion is open-minded and well-grounded, which it seemed to me they were, however misguided.

We&#39;re all here to learn.

[ummProfessional]

dude overlord c&#39;mon man&#33;&#33; lmao don&#39;t let these fools trick you... this is flawed because you are putting yourself on the Vietnamese boy&#39;s shoes from your perspective, since you live in extreme comodity, and you put yourself in his shoes it looks pretty fucked up, but if you really were on that kids shoes you would say to yourself: "Shit at least this is a whole lot better than working 18 hourse in the bare sun in the rice fields, for 10 times less than in this factory" ;)

cheers King Overlod..Australia did good against Brazil dude, by the way why was the WC thread closed? i guess the comrades are anti-sport as well :rolleyes: gee reason 102390130928409 why communism won&#39;t work again lol

[Tungsten]

bobkindles
Is this list of cliches the best you can do?

You think we are soft because we place humans above profits?
Yeah, soft in the head. I&#39;ve had my fill of your lame chest-beating for one lifetime.

Oh, and multinationals aren&#39;t "state owned".

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:34 PM
dude overlord c&#39;mon man&#33;&#33; lmao don&#39;t let these fools trick you... this is flawed because you are putting yourself on the Vietnamese boy&#39;s shoes from your perspective, since you live in extreme comodity, and you put yourself in his shoes it looks pretty fucked up, but if you really were on that kids shoes you would say to yourself: "Shit at least this is a whole lot better than working 18 hourse in the bare sun in the rice fields, for 10 times less than in this factory" ;)

cheers King Overlod..Australia did good against Brazil dude, by the way why was the WC thread closed? i guess the comrades are anti-sport as well :rolleyes: gee reason 102390130928409 why communism won&#39;t work again lol
My God.


It appears that some deranged Zookeeper in an English speaking country has given internet access to some of the exhibited creatures.


In short, you&#39;ve made no valid argument, and no sense.

[ummProfessional]

My God.


It appears that some deranged Zookeeper in an English speaking country has given internet access to some of the exhibited creatures.


In short, you&#39;ve made no valid argument, and no sense

and somehow you have proven me wrong with this exquisite piece of deliberating data in your post above right? lmao :lol: hahahah thanks for the laugh

[overlord]

Look, personally I&#39;ve disagreed with you in some places, but...

but do not be ashamed. Apologize, but don&#39;t ever be ashamed to question someone or something. As well, you have every right to voice your opinion, given that opinion is open-minded and well-grounded, which it seemed to me they were, however misguided.

We&#39;re all here to learn.

Thanks man. I appreciate it.


dude overlord c&#39;mon man&#33;&#33; lmao don&#39;t let these fools trick you... this is flawed because you are putting yourself on the Vietnamese boy&#39;s shoes from your perspective, since you live in extreme comodity, and you put yourself in his shoes it looks pretty fucked up, but if you really were on that kids shoes you would say to yourself: "Shit at least this is a whole lot better than working 18 hourse in the bare sun in the rice fields, for 10 times less than in this factory"


I suppose I started to ponder, &#39;what sort of a world do we want to be living in where someone like that Vietnamese kid has to be exploited and lose his childhood slaving away for a far away fat bourgeoise who doesn&#39;t know of his existence and doesn&#39;t even really care?&#39;

Should I just accept what therefore seems to be an injustice? Do I really want to be living in such a world without taking action?

And now I&#39;m starting to think, if its evil for children to be exploited, why is it not evil that the workers in third world countries are similarly exploited in that they do not receive the full pay for their labour thanks to bourgeoise ownership of the MoP?

[Comrade J]

So surely by working so hard every day for their entire lives just so they can eat, they should at least own the means of production? What gives the capitalists the right to rake in billions, whilst the ones doing the actual work earn next to nothing, and live in appalling conditions with barely enough to survive?

Personally it would depress me if I had a child and had to send him/her to work in a (potentially dangerous) factory, I&#39;m sure it&#39;s the same for the Vietnamese and Chinese parents.

[RebelOutcast]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:39 AM
If you hate NAMBLA, which I do, then you cannot at the same time NOT oppose child labor.
He hates NAMBLA because he&#39;s a homophobe, if it was NAMGLA he&#39;d be all for it. It&#39;s not the age that&#39;s a problem, but the gender.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by RebelOutcast+Jun 20 2006, 02:17 PM--> (RebelOutcast @ Jun 20 2006, 02:17 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 01:39 AM
If you hate NAMBLA, which I do, then you cannot at the same time NOT oppose child labor.
He hates NAMBLA because he&#39;s a homophobe, if it was NAMGLA he&#39;d be all for it. It&#39;s not the age that&#39;s a problem, but the gender. [/b]
Maybe, I&#39;m not him so I can&#39;t really say one way or another.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 05:58 AM

My God.


It appears that some deranged Zookeeper in an English speaking country has given internet access to some of the exhibited creatures.


In short, you&#39;ve made no valid argument, and no sense

and somehow you have proven me wrong with this exquisite piece of deliberating data in your post above right? lmao :lol: hahahah thanks for the laugh
You make no claims, use impossible numbers, and use the term "lol" in a formal discussion.

[overlord]

That&#39;s it. I&#39;m done with capitalism. I&#39;ve had enough of this &#39;dog-eat-dog&#39; shit. Why can&#39;t we live in freedom and harmony rather than chains?From now on i debate the greedy cappies. Prepare to suffer the death of a thousand cuts cappies&#33;

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 06:20 AM
That&#39;s it. I&#39;m done with capitalism. I&#39;ve had enough of this &#39;dog-eat-dog&#39; shit. Why can&#39;t we live in freedom and harmony rather than chains?From now on i debate the greedy cappies. Prepare to suffer the death of a thousand cuts cappies&#33;
I&#39;m not sure what to think of this.

I&#39;m kind of tempted to say it...


God I&#39;m sorry I HAVE to say it.





...O RLY?

[RedAnarchist]

YA RLY

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 07:20 AM
That&#39;s it. I&#39;m done with capitalism. I&#39;ve had enough of this &#39;dog-eat-dog&#39; shit. Why can&#39;t we live in freedom and harmony rather than chains?From now on i debate the greedy cappies. Prepare to suffer the death of a thousand cuts cappies&#33;
If you really have become a communist, then congratulations. :D

[overlord]

If you really have become a communist, then congratulations.

Thank you comrade. It is good to be a communist again. Havn&#39;t been this way for 10 years.

[Comrade J]

How... interesting. Glad you&#39;ve &#39;seen the light&#39; so to speak, I see no reason why you would lie about it anyway, though it all seems a bit of a sudden decision.

[overlord]

EDIT: double post.

[overlord]

though it all seems a bit of a sudden decision.

I got screwed by the bank for &#036;75 today for an annual fee on a student credit card even though I&#39;m still a student hence exempt and i&#39;ve had enough. Time to destroy capitalism&#33;

I&#39;ve alwyas admired certain commie regimes however. Look at Hoxha&#39;s Albania. That guy had panache. Even bicycles were banned. Imagine the sence of community there with a guy like that in charge. To be fair however, you guys type of communism is kinda too &#39;lefy&#39; for me.

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

Child Labor is clearly evil and this overlord seems to be one of the most sick bastards of all time.


I&#39;ve alwyas admired certain commie regimes however. Look at Hoxha&#39;s Albania. That guy had panache. Even bicycles were banned. Imagine the sence of community there with a guy like that in charge. To be fair however, you guys type of communism is kinda too &#39;lefy&#39; for me.

Enver Hoxha was hardly a communist. Communism is a classless stateless society, clearly something totalitarian Albania was NOT.

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

Child Labor is clearly evil and this overlord seems to be one of the most sick bastards of all time.


I&#39;ve alwyas admired certain commie regimes however. Look at Hoxha&#39;s Albania. That guy had panache. Even bicycles were banned. Imagine the sence of community there with a guy like that in charge. To be fair however, you guys type of communism is kinda too &#39;lefy&#39; for me.

Enver Hoxha was hardly a communist. Communism is a classless stateless society, clearly something totalitarian Albania was NOT.

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

Child Labor is clearly evil and this overlord seems to be one of the most sick bastards of all time.


I&#39;ve alwyas admired certain commie regimes however. Look at Hoxha&#39;s Albania. That guy had panache. Even bicycles were banned. Imagine the sence of community there with a guy like that in charge. To be fair however, you guys type of communism is kinda too &#39;lefy&#39; for me.

Enver Hoxha was hardly a communist. Communism is a classless stateless society, clearly something totalitarian Albania was NOT.

[red team]

Whatever may be debatable about how to achieve progress toward a better society. Whatever may be debatable about whether or not labour can be compensated directly instead of traded for subjective, fluctuating value tokens. Whatever may be your opinion on whether or not a high-tech society of common abundance in which all significant productive labour is done by machines is achievable at present, one thing is clear.

Once you introduce the policy of abolishing child labour laws along with the privatization of education and healthcare and the repeal of estate taxes which ultra-capitalist "Libertarians" are all in favour of doing, you&#39;ve just introduced policies that would inevitably lead to a permanent underclass of frail, ignorant wretches just ripe for exploitation and even enslavement.

Just think about this for a moment. With private education, private healthcare and hereditary ownership of assets, what do generations of the poor have to look forward to except being poor, ignorant, ill-health wretches working in factories and farms owned by the wealthy few? With millions of illiterate and innumerate workers who&#39;s going to challenge the authority of these "Libertarian" princes and princesses.

The wealthy elite would answer back to the poor that won&#39;t be able to manage the affairs of society and production and they&#39;ll be right because generations of people will have no education and be ill-health from not being able to afford the prices for these services that is set by the wealthy elite so as to be reserved solely for members of this elite. You can also kiss technical progress goodbye. Why should the sons and daughters of the wealthy wrack their brains on hard practical subjects like science and engineering for improving machinery and production methods when so many untermensh workers who are fit only for manual work are available? Constantly frail, sick, ignorant and exhausted from manual labour will be their lot. Education will again be disdained for being practical, but rather revert back to an abstract gentlemanly pursuit of reading poetry all day and lamenting about broken romances (aww, how sad&#33;).

The picture of this future would surely be a picture of a boot heel stamping on a human face forever...

[red team]

Whatever may be debatable about how to achieve progress toward a better society. Whatever may be debatable about whether or not labour can be compensated directly instead of traded for subjective, fluctuating value tokens. Whatever may be your opinion on whether or not a high-tech society of common abundance in which all significant productive labour is done by machines is achievable at present, one thing is clear.

Once you introduce the policy of abolishing child labour laws along with the privatization of education and healthcare and the repeal of estate taxes which ultra-capitalist "Libertarians" are all in favour of doing, you&#39;ve just introduced policies that would inevitably lead to a permanent underclass of frail, ignorant wretches just ripe for exploitation and even enslavement.

Just think about this for a moment. With private education, private healthcare and hereditary ownership of assets, what do generations of the poor have to look forward to except being poor, ignorant, ill-health wretches working in factories and farms owned by the wealthy few? With millions of illiterate and innumerate workers who&#39;s going to challenge the authority of these "Libertarian" princes and princesses.

The wealthy elite would answer back to the poor that won&#39;t be able to manage the affairs of society and production and they&#39;ll be right because generations of people will have no education and be ill-health from not being able to afford the prices for these services that is set by the wealthy elite so as to be reserved solely for members of this elite. You can also kiss technical progress goodbye. Why should the sons and daughters of the wealthy wrack their brains on hard practical subjects like science and engineering for improving machinery and production methods when so many untermensh workers who are fit only for manual work are available? Constantly frail, sick, ignorant and exhausted from manual labour will be their lot. Education will again be disdained for being practical, but rather revert back to an abstract gentlemanly pursuit of reading poetry all day and lamenting about broken romances (aww, how sad&#33;).

The picture of this future would surely be a picture of a boot heel stamping on a human face forever...

[red team]

Whatever may be debatable about how to achieve progress toward a better society. Whatever may be debatable about whether or not labour can be compensated directly instead of traded for subjective, fluctuating value tokens. Whatever may be your opinion on whether or not a high-tech society of common abundance in which all significant productive labour is done by machines is achievable at present, one thing is clear.

Once you introduce the policy of abolishing child labour laws along with the privatization of education and healthcare and the repeal of estate taxes which ultra-capitalist "Libertarians" are all in favour of doing, you&#39;ve just introduced policies that would inevitably lead to a permanent underclass of frail, ignorant wretches just ripe for exploitation and even enslavement.

Just think about this for a moment. With private education, private healthcare and hereditary ownership of assets, what do generations of the poor have to look forward to except being poor, ignorant, ill-health wretches working in factories and farms owned by the wealthy few? With millions of illiterate and innumerate workers who&#39;s going to challenge the authority of these "Libertarian" princes and princesses.

The wealthy elite would answer back to the poor that won&#39;t be able to manage the affairs of society and production and they&#39;ll be right because generations of people will have no education and be ill-health from not being able to afford the prices for these services that is set by the wealthy elite so as to be reserved solely for members of this elite. You can also kiss technical progress goodbye. Why should the sons and daughters of the wealthy wrack their brains on hard practical subjects like science and engineering for improving machinery and production methods when so many untermensh workers who are fit only for manual work are available? Constantly frail, sick, ignorant and exhausted from manual labour will be their lot. Education will again be disdained for being practical, but rather revert back to an abstract gentlemanly pursuit of reading poetry all day and lamenting about broken romances (aww, how sad&#33;).

The picture of this future would surely be a picture of a boot heel stamping on a human face forever...

[fitzcarraldo]

wow, the people on this forum are so full of hatred and rage. :o


Just think about this for a moment. With education, healthcare and hereditary ownership of assets, what do generations of the poor have to look forward to except being poor, ignorant, ill-health wretches working in factories and farms owned by the wealthy few? With millions of illiterate and innumerate workers who&#39;s going to challenge the authority of these "Libertarian" princes and princesses.

That doesn&#39;t stop the people of South America holding God in their hearts and love in their spirit. I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

[fitzcarraldo]

wow, the people on this forum are so full of hatred and rage. :o


Just think about this for a moment. With education, healthcare and hereditary ownership of assets, what do generations of the poor have to look forward to except being poor, ignorant, ill-health wretches working in factories and farms owned by the wealthy few? With millions of illiterate and innumerate workers who&#39;s going to challenge the authority of these "Libertarian" princes and princesses.

That doesn&#39;t stop the people of South America holding God in their hearts and love in their spirit. I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

[fitzcarraldo]

wow, the people on this forum are so full of hatred and rage. :o


Just think about this for a moment. With education, healthcare and hereditary ownership of assets, what do generations of the poor have to look forward to except being poor, ignorant, ill-health wretches working in factories and farms owned by the wealthy few? With millions of illiterate and innumerate workers who&#39;s going to challenge the authority of these "Libertarian" princes and princesses.

That doesn&#39;t stop the people of South America holding God in their hearts and love in their spirit. I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

[KC]

I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

Which way is that?

[KC]

I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

Which way is that?

[KC]

I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

Which way is that?

[Herman]

That doesn&#39;t stop the people of South America holding God in their hearts and love in their spirit. I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

Oh i&#39;m sorry&#33; I must repent&#33; The power of Christ compels me&#33; I&#39;ll wip my butt with butter and ice cream. I&#39;ll take a piece of paper and salami and roll it on my belly. And i&#39;ll recite two poems and 5 prayers to god. I hope I will go to heaven. :) :
) :)

[Herman]

That doesn&#39;t stop the people of South America holding God in their hearts and love in their spirit. I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

Oh i&#39;m sorry&#33; I must repent&#33; The power of Christ compels me&#33; I&#39;ll wip my butt with butter and ice cream. I&#39;ll take a piece of paper and salami and roll it on my belly. And i&#39;ll recite two poems and 5 prayers to god. I hope I will go to heaven. :) :
) :)

[Herman]

That doesn&#39;t stop the people of South America holding God in their hearts and love in their spirit. I think it is just sad that you people can&#39;t accept the world the way God designed it.

Oh i&#39;m sorry&#33; I must repent&#33; The power of Christ compels me&#33; I&#39;ll wip my butt with butter and ice cream. I&#39;ll take a piece of paper and salami and roll it on my belly. And i&#39;ll recite two poems and 5 prayers to god. I hope I will go to heaven. :) :
) :)

[Zero]

RedHerman are you being a Communist again? Do you need to be saved? Aren&#39;t you tired of being wrong all the time? Don&#39;t you want to be accepted by Jesus? If you do want to be saved, you have to pay me &#036;10. If you pay me, you can rest assured that you will survive forever in heaven. If you think you can cheat yourself by not paying me, you&#39;ll go and burn in the firey pits of hell forever and ever.

And besides, even if I&#39;m wrong, statisticly its better to pay me &#036;10 now and feel happy&#33;

Trust me&#33; Would I lie?

[Zero]

RedHerman are you being a Communist again? Do you need to be saved? Aren&#39;t you tired of being wrong all the time? Don&#39;t you want to be accepted by Jesus? If you do want to be saved, you have to pay me &#036;10. If you pay me, you can rest assured that you will survive forever in heaven. If you think you can cheat yourself by not paying me, you&#39;ll go and burn in the firey pits of hell forever and ever.

And besides, even if I&#39;m wrong, statisticly its better to pay me &#036;10 now and feel happy&#33;

Trust me&#33; Would I lie?

[Zero]

RedHerman are you being a Communist again? Do you need to be saved? Aren&#39;t you tired of being wrong all the time? Don&#39;t you want to be accepted by Jesus? If you do want to be saved, you have to pay me &#036;10. If you pay me, you can rest assured that you will survive forever in heaven. If you think you can cheat yourself by not paying me, you&#39;ll go and burn in the firey pits of hell forever and ever.

And besides, even if I&#39;m wrong, statisticly its better to pay me &#036;10 now and feel happy&#33;

Trust me&#33; Would I lie?

[SocialistGenius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 02:03 PM
bobantionette

Child Labour (Children producing commodities or providing a service - most commonly sexual intercourse - for a wage) exists primarily in the third world as a result of the system of Capitalism. Members of the Proletariat do not own or control the means of production,
There are no "means of production" to control in the third world. If there are any, they&#39;re extremely primitive and they&#39;d be no better off if they did share them.

and so are forced to sell their labour power as a commodity to survive
If they&#39;re supposedly in the same position as us, why aren&#39;t our children selling themselves on the streets?

The Wages payed by multinationals to Adult labourers are so limited, that children are forced to supplment the family income with their own earnings through selling their labour power in order to maintain a decent standard of living.
Imagine what it was like before the multinationals arrived.

When Socialism triumphs, the wage labour system will be abolished, and with it, Child labour.
Let&#39;s hope it doesn&#39;t happen in the third world, otherwise we&#39;ll be seeing mass starvation caused by lack of people producing food. 43.5% of the African population are under 15 years old. Banning child labour would effictively halve the workforce.

Children will be able to spend their time as they wish
Eating cake, no doubt.

- probably learning about the things that interest them.
From who? There are hardly any schools and few people with the ability to teach in them.

The parents would not have to worry about paying the bills every month
The third world doesn&#39;t have much of an infrastructure to maintain, so that&#39;s unlikely to bother them.

Whether you consider Child labour to be Humane or Not depends on one simple choice - What is more important to you - Commodities and profit or Human needs, wants, and quality of living?
Reality or your utopian daydreaming- I know which one I consider more important.
Only a capitalist, this day in age, would view children not having to work as a "utopian" ideal.

In the 19th century, when child labor still existed in the U.S., I&#39;m sure many capitalists were complaining about "the damn workers unions that are putting an end to our beloved child labour and *GASP* instituting an 8 hour work day."

And these unions were not even a revolutionary force. They simply held the view that under capitalism, corporations, which are the organization of capital, must be balanced by the organization of labor.

Imagine what a changes a true revolutionary force could bring about.