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rioters bloc
13th June 2006, 03:25
another lil sumin sumin one of my friends wrote (printed in mutiny zine #2)

although i agree with most of her sentiments, i don't completely concur with some of her ideas and i'd like to know how others feel :)

peace out


Beyond Non-Violence

The ideas in this article have been going through my head for quite some time. The spark for their release was the May 12 student VSU/welfare demonstration, where the ‘official leadership’ of the student movement and sections of the so-called radical left actively discouraged collectively determined direct action, negotiated with police on behalf of the protest and denounced ‘violence’ from a soap box.

This article is not a personal criticism of those involved, or even of the student movement, but I think these examples are a useful springboard for looking at this broader political question.

The rally began at UTS politely listening to speakers where the Union President told us that we should make sure we are well-behaved at the demonstration and don’t let ourselves be triggered into violence. This was so we would not get ‘bad’ media coverage have our ‘message lost’. (We were also told “Student Unions built this country”… but I think that I just need to leave that alone for now).

These comments reminded me of being at primary school when we were told that if you are bullied you should not fight back because then you are just as bad as them. It’s as though if we resort to tactics thought of as ‘violent’, we are somehow reducing ourselves to a lesser form of resistance than if we were to stick to the standard respectable march down George Street.

There are two major strands - well maybe three strands - of criticism that I have about this way of thinking.

Firstly, when we disparage ‘violent protest’ we directly undermine a form of resistance that is the only avenue of resistance available to a number of oppressed groups across the world. The riots in Redern and Macquarie fields are examples where communities who have no access to the ‘legitimate means of change’ provided by the social democratic system resist through one of the only means they have available.

I’m not necessarily claiming these are ‘pure’ examples of highly politicised, democratic resistance, but are they are examples of people standing up together against systemic oppression. To undermine this form of resistance based on ‘violence’ I think illustrates confusion between violence as a means of domination; and physical resistance from oppression (whether in the form of a riot, direct action or defending yourself against police brutality).

Secondly, it illustrates a failure to acknowledge the success of movements for change, both contemporary and throughout history. If we restrict ourselves to the ‘legitimate’ forms of protest set out for us by the social democratic system, we will never get any further than a few short term concessions. We send a message that while we may be unhappy, we are prepared to keep our dissent within a framework decided by the system. This means we will only ever have wins when they sways the votes and pose no threat to the system at all.

This is particularly so when we compromise on collectively determined decisions under the pressure of the police. This can undermine an entire movement by suggesting that if we compromise on a rally route we will compromise on demands, and inevitably only push as far as the system lets us.

We end up supporting the system by providing the spectacle of democracy without any real pressure for change. This gives legitimacy to the system, enabling our protest to be used as an example of the success that social democracy can bring when people protest the ‘right way’. We are simply a vent to allow the stresses of social democracy to be relieved.

We contribute to this further when we cry that our legitimate, peaceful protests are hammered by the police. We leave space then to imply that if the demonstration was more violent or disruptive then police interference and violence may be justified.

This article is not claiming that the only useful form of resistance involves direct action or molotovs, but I wanted to get out that we need to think about our forms of protest and the associated language in the context of a broader struggle. This should mean that our means are much closer to our ends and that we build solidarity in the process.

rioters bloc
13th June 2006, 03:37
a lil bit of background info if it helps: there was a student march down one of the main roads in the city and back up to our unis. there was meant to be a sitdown at railway square which is a really busy intersection. the cops took us to the supreme court to get an injunction to stop it. the supreme court said we could march but not sitdown otherwise the two student reps would be prosecuted for contempt of court. a third of us sat down anyway. half walked away, the rest stayed around to help out. 26 people were arrested out of maybe 300. there were about 200 cops including riot police with dogs.

Hegemonicretribution
13th June 2006, 03:42
Good piece RB, but like you I don't completely agree with it all ;)


We contribute to this further when we cry that our legitimate, peaceful protests are hammered by the police. We leave space then to imply that if the demonstration was more violent or disruptive then police interference and violence may be justified.
Wasn't 100% on this, not sure what is being said exactly. If the demonstration was potentially more violent or disruptive would the "justification" of police interference be invoked anyway? Or is it saying that growing disenchantment with police interference is used to justify more police interference as the chances of giving up on "legitimacy" are higher?

Also:
This should mean that our means are much closer to our ends and that we build solidarity in the process.
Are the means not inevitably violent, and therefore further from our ends than "legitimate" protest? Or is it meant in terms of the rejection of "legitimate" means(justifying the state), and not referring to the violence as such?

I like the piece, but these bits seemed a little vague.

rioters bloc
13th June 2006, 03:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:13 AM
Wasn't 100% on this, not sure what is being said exactly. If the demonstration was potentially more violent or disruptive would the "justification" of police interference be invoked anyway? Or is it saying that growing disenchantment with police interference is used to justify more police interference as the chances of giving up on "legitimacy" are higher?
i think that what she meant was that often when cops get violent at peaceful protests (like they did in this one) we tend to go "and they started slamming us against their vans! and we weren't even doing anything wrong, it was a peaceful protest!"

and by saying that, we're basically saying
1. violence is 'wrong' even when it's for a legitimate cause, and
2. had we been violent, the cops would have been justified in hitting us with batons or setting dogs on us or whatever.

which i can kinda understand. but at the same time i think that while we shouldn't be appealing to the lowest common denominator of the 'left' (that is bourgie pacifist liberal hippies) it is sometimes useful to get the public on our side, especially for something like this where altogether people are facing about 18 000 in fines :blink: so if the public are aware that it was a peaceful protest, and the cops were being violent, the cops are less likely to actually want to press those charges cos well, they were being complete fuckers.


Are the means not inevitably violent, and therefore to further from our means than "legitimate" protest? Or is it mean in terms of rejection of "legitimate" means, and not referring to the violence as such?

i'm not sure what you mean, sorry lol :( getting confused.. too many words everywhere :P

Hegemonicretribution
13th June 2006, 04:02
I get the first bit now ;)

The second bit I typed was a mess, I have edited it now so it should make sense, sorry about that :P

rioters bloc
13th June 2006, 04:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:13 AM
Are the means not inevitably violent, and therefore further from our ends than "legitimate" protest? Or is it meant in terms of the rejection of "legitimate" means(justifying the state), and not referring to the violence as such?
i think that what she meant was not legitimising the state rather than the actual violence itself. so if we want a stateless society, we should be fighting the state on all fronts now, rather than just waiting til 'the revolution'.

which is funny, cos she's studying law :P

Hegemonicretribution
13th June 2006, 04:20
Hehe, I thought it was what you said, it just wasn't totally clear.

I don't think there is much there I can disagree with although my emphasis would probably been different.

Also a little vague with some of the wording, practicing for law schoold most likely :lol:

rioters bloc
13th June 2006, 04:33
i guess the bit i disagree with is this part


Firstly, when we disparage ‘violent protest’ we directly undermine a form of resistance that is the only avenue of resistance available to a number of oppressed groups across the world. The riots in Redern and Macquarie fields are examples where communities who have no access to the ‘legitimate means of change’ provided by the social democratic system resist through one of the only means they have available.

well not so much disagree as don't think that paralells can be drawn. i guess you kinda need to know what the behind our demo were (fighting for higher youth allowance, concession cards for all students including part timers and international students, no tax on textbooks, etc), and what the redfern riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfern_riots) and macquarie fields riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Macquarie_Fields_riots) in sydney were about. vastly different. and i think that while in many cases violence is fine, this pretty docile, boring, 'centre-left' rally was not one of those cases. particularly when you're not the only one who could get into trouble (which is fine, if thats what you want) but your actions could potentially get two other comrades jailed/fined as well, simply cos they were the ones who had to actually go to the supreme court.. not much solidarity in that :/

apathy maybe
13th June 2006, 06:44
Originally posted by Article+--> (Article) This article is not a personal criticism of those involved, or even of the student movement, but I think these examples are a useful springboard for looking at this broader political question.[/b]It should be a criticism of activism in Australia ("shouldn't be appealing to the lowest common denominator of the 'left' (that is bourgie pacifist liberal hippies"- I agree).


Originally posted by Article+--> (Article) Secondly, it illustrates a failure to acknowledge the success of movements for change, both contemporary and throughout history. If we restrict ourselves to the ‘legitimate’ forms of protest set out for us by the social democratic system, we will never get any further than a few short term concessions. We send a message that while we may be unhappy, we are prepared to keep our dissent within a framework decided by the system. This means we will only ever have wins when they sways the votes and pose no threat to the system at all.

This is particularly so when we compromise on collectively determined decisions under the pressure of the police. This can undermine an entire movement by suggesting that if we compromise on a rally route we will compromise on demands, and inevitably only push as far as the system lets us.

We end up supporting the system by providing the spectacle of democracy without any real pressure for change. This gives legitimacy to the system, enabling our protest to be used as an example of the success that social democracy can bring when people protest the ‘right way’. We are simply a vent to allow the stresses of social democracy to be relieved.[/b] Agree. By working within the bounds of the system we legitimise it. But as an anarchist, I feel that the available options do not allow real change, and I do not wish to legitimise the system at all.

Peaceful protest, even violent protest is just a pressure release. The might be fun, but what does that actually achieve towards a better society and world?


Originally posted by rioters bloc
which i can kinda understand. but at the same time i think that while we shouldn't be appealing to the lowest common denominator of the 'left' (that is bourgie pacifist liberal hippies) it is sometimes useful to get the public on our side, especially for something like this where altogether people are facing about 18 000 in fines :blink: so if the public are aware that it was a peaceful protest, and the cops were being violent, the cops are less likely to actually want to press those charges cos well, they were being complete fuckers.Why should we necessarily want the public on our side? This is used to justify pacifism in Australia almost without regard to the protest or situation. But I guess in this case it is worth it.


[email protected]
Are the means not inevitably violent, and therefore further from our ends than "legitimate" protest? Or is it meant in terms of the rejection of "legitimate" means(justifying the state), and not referring to the violence as such?I do not know. We reject "legitimate" means, but we want a peaceful end result (anarchism in my case). Umm...


rioters bloc
well not so much disagree as don't think that paralells can be drawn. i guess you kinda need to know what the behind our demo were (fighting for higher youth allowance, concession cards for all students including part timers and international students, no tax on textbooks, etc), and what the redfern riots and macquarie fields riots in sydney were about. vastly different. and i think that while in many cases violence is fine, this pretty docile, boring, 'centre-left' rally was not one of those cases. particularly when you're not the only one who could get into trouble (which is fine, if thats what you want) but your actions could potentially get two other comrades jailed/fined as well, simply cos they were the ones who had to actually go to the supreme court.. not much solidarity in that :/Umm... I see your point. In this case violence might not be the answer. But in regards to activism in general, it should be open as a tactic. (I get in to trouble when going to non-violent direct action workshops when I call pacifism a tactic, something that can be discarded.)

rioters bloc
14th June 2006, 01:37
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 13 2006, 01:15 PM
Why should we necessarily want the public on our side? This is used to justify pacifism in Australia almost without regard to the protest or situation. But I guess in this case it is worth it.
well it really depends on what it is you're fighting for. a lot of the time, it isn't necessary or even desirable to have public support to effect change. but like you said, in this case it was the best method, i felt at least. i know that seeing the footage of cops bashing students on the news slightly radicalised a couple of my centre-left/apathetic friends who were basically like " :blink: they can do that?!" and i've seen it before too. sometimes it takes something like that to politicise people, and i'm tired of apathy in australia and worldwide.


I do not know. We reject "legitimate" means, but we want a peaceful end result (anarchism in my case). Umm...

i like what malatesta says about this in anarchism and violence (maybe i'll post up the full article later):

Anarchists are opposed to every kind of violence; everyone knows that. The main plank of Anarchism is the removal of violence from human relations. It is life based on the freedom of the individual, without the intervention of the gendarme. For this reason we are enemies of capitalism which depends on the protection of the gendarme to oblige workers to allow themselves to be exploited - or even to remain idle and go hungry when it is not in the interest of the bosses to exploit them. We are therefore enemies of the State, which is the coercive, violent organisation of society.

...

This revolution must of necessity be violent, even though violence is in itself an evil. It must be violent because a transitional, revolutionary, violence, is the only way to put and end to the far greater, and permanent, violence which keeps the majority of mankind in servitude.


Umm... I see your point. In this case violence might not be the answer. But in regards to activism in general, it should be open as a tactic. (I get in to trouble when going to non-violent direct action workshops when I call pacifism a tactic, something that can be discarded.)

i agree. violence and non-violence are both tactics, and part of our struggle should be trying to guage which tactics are appropriate and most productive for the purpose of that particular action. i actually really find it offensive to equate the conditions of people who live in redfern and macquarie fields (respectively largely indigenous population and poor working-class population) with those of the majority of uni students. yes, the government treats us like shit. yes, youth allowance is below the poverty line. yes, not giving concession cards to all students is unfair. but we're all still somewhat privileged if we can choose to go to uni rather than work full-time, and none of our mates was killed as a result of government policy on universities recently.

maybe that's unfair as well. i'm not trying to say that many, many students don't face oppression, but i just think that we're undermining violence as resistance if we say that it was the way to go in this particular case.