Christian Anarchism

[emma_goldman]

Me and my friend are talking back and forth about the merits of Christian anarchism. I thought I would reproduce our messages thus far here and see what you think. Overall, we both agree that we should not exclude christian anarchists from the anarchist spectrum, that we should stand in solidarity with them but we are also skeptical. Let me know how you feel....<3 Darby

Dave:
I&#39;m an atheist Darb....and I think that you know what I think about most
religious stuff. I also understand your skepiticism...and I share it with
you. I also understand your statement regarding "no gods no masters" and
I understand where you get that from. Also most historical socialist
radicals (be they anarchist, marxist, marxist-leninist or whatever) were
very critical and negative toward religion and its role in society.

However I&#39;ve become more open minded toward spiritual/religious issues as
of lately. Not that I&#39;m planning on bending my knees in prayer anytime
soon OR EVER...I&#39;ve just done some reading regarding both liberation
theology (primarily in Latin America...see Catholic Workers and the
Jesuits) and the role of religion in social movements....plus a little
Leo Tolstoy (Xtian anarchist).

I can no longer side with marx, engles, goldman, berkman, guerrin etc in
saying that ALL religion is rotten to its core and that it has no
positive use for humanity (thats what I used to think). It has become too
obvious to me that that analysis of religion lacks truth. I believe that
the type of religion that those old timer socialist radicals such as
Goldman and Marx were primarily exposed to was and still is pure
evil....however I also think that those same old timer radicals failed to
have a FULL understanding of religion (which was PROBABLY the result of
lacking a FULL exposure to religion) and the role that it has played in
human history.

To me it is NOW obvious that religion has not ONLY been a tool of state
oppression, slavery, war, capitalist exploitation and other evils. It has
not ONLY worked as a mind numbing opiate-like fog toward the masses
(although most of it has been guilty as charged&#33;). SOME religion
(although I admit it is a minority) has acted as an agent of strength to
fight against state oppression, has encouraged rebellion against
capitalist exploitation (see liberation theology), has promoted peace,
has united people to fight for a more egalitarian society, has stood up
for human rights and some has even endorsed socialism as the only
alternative to our capitalist model.....these are all things that I
believe in too...and they&#39;re all things that are compatible with
anarchism.

So should I integrate this into the anarchist spectrum?? I think so.
Anything that liberates people rather than oppresses them can be
integrated into anarchist thought I think. Plus if anarchy is the society
that I want and I just admitted to some forms of religion being positive
contributions to human society, then why would I want to leave religion
COMPLETLY out of anarchism? Afterall all religion is fundamentalist
slavery.

Oh, and one more thing....always remember that AS AN ANARCHIST it&#39;s OK to
disagree with old or new leaders of the movement on issues. Bakkunin&#39;s
anarchism was a little different than Johanne Most&#39;s and the
Anarcho-Communists (like berkman) were a little different than the
syndicalists (like Rocker). That&#39;s why we call ourselves anarchists and
NOT Proudonists, Bakuninists, Goldmanists OR MARXISTS. Its the beauty of
the anarchist movement...nobody is the ABSOLUTE prophet-like figure
(unlike most marxism)...it allows for growth and evolution. As long as
you agree on the basics of course, you&#39;re still an anarchist.

-DW

Darby:
Yeah, I mean I basically agree. I want to integrate them into the anarchist movement, I don&#39;t have qualms about that. But why must you be a "christian anarchist"? Isn&#39;t calling yourself this exclusionary? After all I doubt you call yourself an "athiest anarchist".

Christian anarchists believe there is a link between the Bible and anarchism how can this be when we have pointed out sexist, racist, and homophobic texts in the Bible?

How can they be christian & anarchists if they also trust the ten commandments? Namely, thou shall not covet and thou shall not commit adultery. Saying adultery is to be understood as sex with a married woman or a married man, what kind of marriage would there be in an anarchist society? Secondly, aren&#39;t anarchists for freedom of _expression, how can we have free _expression if we are forbidden to desire? How can we have free love if we are still shackled by marriage and by monogamy always and between a man and a woman? Not that all Christian anarchists subscribe to these beliefs but surely they do to some of them. And again why must you label yourself a christian anarchist if you aren&#39;t REALLY one?

Another point wrapped up in the 10th commandment is this: "One is forbidden to desire and plan how one may obtain that which God has given to another." If we are forbidden to plan a new society how can we equate Christianity with anarchism? Maybe it&#39;s just me but this seems reactionary. Should we not just be happy with what "God" has "given us"?

If anarchists are against restrictive social organizations how can we look at the 4th commandment through an anarchist perspective?

"Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you; that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which the LORD your God gives you."

Are there cases where this can be overlooked? Aren&#39;t there cases where anarchists have completely destroyed the familiy structure? And yet, if you are a Christian anarchist this commandment seems to emphasize the family as a part of God&#39;s design.

How can we believe in the good of mankind if we also believe in "original sin" and our need for "salvation"?

How can we forgo judgement if there is such a thing as "judgement day"? How can we liberate our minds if there is constantly the yoke of "heaven and hell" hanging above our heads?

What about the attitudes of Christians towards other religions? What about (atleast for the Baptists) the belief that all who do not believe in Christianity are doomed to hell? This includes those who only minorly disagree with them.

I ask a lot of questions. I don&#39;t have the answers, maybe you do. This is why I&#39;m so skeptical but again, ultimately, I think we should join them but maybe we should press for as Voltairine de Cleyre, "anarchism without adjectives."

<3 Darby

Dave:
You&#39;re speaking about fundeamentalist religion Darb......the same kind
of
religion that pisses me off too. Liberation theologists and most Xtian
anarchists (that I&#39;m aware of) don&#39;t even take the bible literal. There
are alotta xtians for instance that don&#39;t even believe in hell or a
fiery
judgemental God. Nor do they apply the sexist aspects of the Bible to
their life just like I don&#39;t apply the sexist side of Bakunin (whom
some
call the father of anarchism) to my life. There are also alotta xtians
that don&#39;t believe in the original sin and the sin nature of all of
mankind.

Hell....some people that profess to be Christians don&#39;t even believe
that
Jesus was crucified for their sins, nor do they believe that he was
raised from the dead. They believe that he was executed for being an
anti-roman marxist-like revolutionary. They justify calling themselves
"Christian" while NOT believing in the myths of the virgin birth,
original sin, ressurection etc by saying that they&#39;re still followers
of
Jesus as they believe he lived his life. In other words they have a
marxist-like out look on society, feel a responsibility to help the
poor
and revolt against empire etc and feel like they&#39;re being followers of
Jesus by doing all those things and are therefore in their own minds
Christians. Some don&#39;t even believe that Jesus was the son of god, and
I&#39;ve read literature written by Christians (and have also talked to
proclaiming Christians) that don&#39;t even believe in a higher power.

So see what I mean about how broad the issue of religion is? It&#39;s just
that unfortunatly the most vocal of religious people are the
fundamentalists and literalists...so it&#39;s easy to put ALL xtians or
muslims or whoever into the same box. But thats unfair.....because it&#39;s
just not ALL like that. All christianity isn&#39;t sexist because of sexist
biblical texts (that some christians don&#39;t even take literal or simply
DISAGREE with [yes some xtians think it&#39;s OK to disagree with the
bible]
They blame its sexism on the times that it was written in). Just like
not
all anarchism is sexist even though Bakunin was a sexist pig....and I
blame that on the times that he lived in too. Alotta christians look at
the bible the same way that I look at Proudhon, Most&#39;s and Bakunin&#39;s
writting....I take whats best and leave the rest. Thats what I mean in
that you can&#39;t put ALL religion into the same box....it&#39;s too diverse,
too large and too complex to do that. As I said before....not ALL
religion is fundamentalist bullshit.

Good point on "why call youself a Christian Anarchist....you don&#39;t
call
yourself an Atheist Anarchist" though. I agree with you in that there&#39;s
not much point in making a label or a whole other sect of anarchism for
xtian anarchists. I&#39;m just saying that DEPENDING ON THE SPECIFICS of
your
xtian belief system, that being xtian and being anarchist can be
compatible. ANd that maybe we can learn something from the good points
of
religion...while discarding the bad....just like I learn from the good
from Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and Bakunin while discarding the bad.

Sorry for repetition and long windedness ;-)
-DW

[emma_goldman]

Darby:
The way you are explaining christian anarchism doesn&#39;t seem as if it is religious at all. In order to be a religion it has to be centered around something supernatural. If Christ was merely a revolutionary than I don&#39;t see that being a religious perspective.

Maybe christian anarchists don&#39;t take the bible completely literally (which confuses the hell out of me already) but they certainly take the teachings of Jesus to be. And if Jesus is God and the Bible is God&#39;s word, well then they would if they are really "christian" anarchists, wouldn&#39;t they? And if Jesus is not God, then he is not divine and like I said, it&#39;s not religion.

Again, why call yourself a Christian if you aren&#39;t really one? Doesn&#39;t anarchism already validate the teachings of Jesus Christ that deal with the poor and dispossessed? If Christian anarchists aren&#39;t of the religious sort well then Dave you must be a Christian anarchist too and me too because I feel solidarity with the poor as well.

According to Wikipedia, a Christian is:
"a follower of Jesus Christ, believing him to be the Son of God and the savior of human souls from sin and death. Christians believe that Jesus lived a life befitting that of the creator of the universe, free of sin, and at the end of his earthly life was crucified. They believe that he was in the afterlife for three days, whilst he visited Hell and unlocked the world from sin, and then rose from the dead on the 3rd day, to give the message to his followers. Most Christians maintain that Jesus offers eternal life to anyone who believes in him and asks for this free gift. There are somewhat different interpretations of the exact meaning of salvation &#39;through&#39; Christ, although virtually all Christians agree that it is the perfect form of reconciliation to God, and that this is only possible because of God&#39;s becoming Christ. Christians, by definition, are a part of Christianity. Christians are monotheistic, believing that there is one God. Today, it is estimated that there are around 2.1 billion Christians in the world."

The point with you not agreeing fully with Most, Proudhon, Bakunin, et al is a good one however, do you refer to yourself as a Proudhon anarchist, a Bakunin anarchist or a Most anarchist? Doubtful. You take from them certain ideas and discard the others. I&#39;m sure many anarchists take certain ideas from Christianity but discard the rest. They&#39;re not christian anarchists though are they?

Thanks for your thoughts. Remember I&#39;m pretty hard-headed. ;D

I think this Gandhi quote is fitting, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

<3 Darby

[Comrade-Z]

The only thing that I hate more than capitalism is religion.

That&#39;s actually one way in which I think capitalism is positive/progressive--it gradually corrodes and destroys religion.

Yeehaw&#33; ;)

Edit:


There are alotta xtians for instance that don&#39;t even believe in hell or a fiery judgemental God

Yes, they&#39;re called "heretics." Real christians (you know, the fundamentalist ones) used to burn/stone/hang/kill heretics. Heretics are not only rationally bankrupt, but theologically bankrupt as well.

My question is, if these "Christian anarchists" treat the bible like any other book, why do they call themselves "Christian" in the first place? People who find some of Bakunin&#39;s ideas useful don&#39;t call themselves "Bakuninists." It is incredibly unfortunate that marxism is known as "marxism." I would rather it be known as "the materialist conception of history" or possibly just "materialism."


They justify calling themselves "Christian" while NOT believing in the myths of the virgin birth, original sin, ressurection etc by saying that they&#39;re still followers of Jesus as they believe he lived his life.

They are still followers, whichever way you slice it. Not the kind of people we are looking for for a revolutionary movement.


I&#39;ve just done some reading regarding both liberation theology (primarily in Latin America...see Catholic Workers and the Jesuits) and the role of religion in social movements....plus a little Leo Tolstoy (Xtian anarchist)

Let&#39;s see...con, con, con, and hopeless idealist.


however I also think that those same old timer radicals failed to
have a FULL understanding of religion (which was PROBABLY the result of
lacking a FULL exposure to religion

"FULL exposure" meaning childhood indoctrination, right? :o

I&#39;m curious, has anyone ever gone from being an ardent atheist to being religious after having never been religious before?


Hell....some people that profess to be Christians don&#39;t even believe that Jesus was crucified for their sins, nor do they believe that he was raised from the dead. They believe that he was executed for being an anti-roman marxist-like revolutionary

These people this person speaks of certainly are idiots&#33; If there was one thing that Jesus was, it was most certainly not "marxist." Being a marxist entails being familiar with the scientific method of inquiry and the materialist conception of history and human behavior. Such idiocy&#33; People just fling the phrase "marxist" around as if it were synonymous with "communist"&#33;

I&#39;m sorry, that&#39;s all I have to say about that...unless my blood gets boiling some more after reading through more of this, and I just can&#39;t help myself. :)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Anarchism is messed up in the first place. Christian anarchism is like whoa...messed up.

[Johnny Anarcho]

But whatabout the PLO which was and is a mainly Islamic organization?

[Janus]

But whatabout the PLO which was and is a mainly Islamic organization?
What does that have to do with Christian anarchism

Leo Tolstoy was one of the most famous Christian anarchists. They rejected government only because they thought that god was more important. Definitely wouldn&#39;t want to live under a society based on that even if it was peaceful.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:49 AM

But whatabout the PLO which was and is a mainly Islamic organization?
What does that have to do with Christian anarchism

Leo Tolstoy was one of the most famous Christian anarchists. They rejected government only because they thought that god was more important. Definitely wouldn&#39;t want to live under a society based on that even if it was peaceful.
You guys are always preaching all this crap against religion but no one is forcing you to believe in it and you can be religious and still be revolutionary, remember Malcolm X?

[violencia.Proletariat]

but no one is forcing you to believe in it

Tell that to the kids at your local church/mosque/synagog


and you can be religious and still be revolutionary, remember Malcolm X?

Malcolm X wasn&#39;t a marxist or an anarchist, we aren&#39;t interested in his revolution.

[Brekisonphilous]

People who think you cannot be revolutionary and still believe in a higher power are pretty oppressive. Anyone who calls themselves an anarchist and wants to abolish religion is not an anarchist because it makes them the authority against the majority of the world, repressing them saying they cannot believe what they want.
Abolishing religion is NOT in the proletariats interest and goes against materialism seeing as how the majority are religious and have been since as far back as history goes. Thats just the way it is, and I am unconvinced that any revolution could ever change that.

[SanPatricio&#39;sSoul]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 04:52 AM

but no one is forcing you to believe in it

Tell that to the kids at your local church/mosque/synagog


and you can be religious and still be revolutionary, remember Malcolm X?

Malcolm X wasn&#39;t a marxist or an anarchist, we aren&#39;t interested in his revolution.
Actually Malcolm X moved towards Socialism later in his life, but your statement seems Horribly troubling to me. So basically you just said that you have no interest in a revolution just because it doesn&#39;t meet the standards of an ideology. Thats like saying we don&#39;t give a fuck about you cause your not in our social club, the revolution isn&#39;t about who fits what ideology and does this according to Marxist principles, its about freeing the prolateriat.

[apathy maybe]

Christian Anarchists are anarchists, they believe in the fundumental principles of anarchism. (Non-Hierarchy, Voluntarism, Due Process, ...)

However, they are obviously not revolutionary anarchists, nor (I don&#39;t think) do they have a seperate economic theory. The main reason for them existing is that God is the only authority to them. I don&#39;t think they even accept Jesus as divine.

Just because you&#39;re an anarchist, does not mean you have to be rational (see primitvists for another example).

(See http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=6421 and http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=28053 for some general infomation on anarchism.)

[redstar2000]

Simply ask your self what is it about religion that you want to preserve?

Do any of you imagine that there "is" a "God" that actively intervenes in the real world? Do we require supernatural assistance? Like the reactionaries, do we need "God on our side"?

Christian anarchism is an oxymoron. Why would any self-respecting anarchist want to have anything to do with anything gas self-evidently authoritarian as Christianity?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 08:48 AM
Simply ask your self what is it about religion that you want to preserve?

Do any of you imagine that there "is" a "God" that actively intervenes in the real world? Do we require supernatural assistance? Like the reactionaries, do we need "God on our side"?

Christian anarchism is an oxymoron. Why would any self-respecting anarchist want to have anything to do with anything gas self-evidently authoritarian as Christianity?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif
Everything is pretermined, Allah will assist whom He will and be on the side of whom He will. Militarily speaking he&#39;d be on the side of whoever it was that was fighting a just war, so he isnt on Bush&#39;s side =D

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Everything is pretermined, Allah will assist whom He will and be on the side of whom He will. Militarily speaking he&#39;d be on the side of whoever it was that was fighting a just war, so he isnt on Bush&#39;s side chacha.gif

So the Muslim God is getting pawned by the Christian God?

Coz Iraq may not be pretty right now, but the americans have taken the country under their own control, like it or not.

Every religious person believes "god" is on their side. Its simply a tool people have used to control you.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:27 AM
Anarchism is messed up in the first place.
Congratulations, you&#39;ve just earned your first warning point for useless sectarian trolling flamebait.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 PM

Everything is pretermined, Allah will assist whom He will and be on the side of whom He will. Militarily speaking he&#39;d be on the side of whoever it was that was fighting a just war, so he isnt on Bush&#39;s side chacha.gif

So the Muslim God is getting pawned by the Christian God?

Coz Iraq may not be pretty right now, but the americans have taken the country under their own control, like it or not.

Every religious person believes "god" is on their side. Its simply a tool people have used to control you.
No one controls me but me, I wasnt born Muslim I converted of my own free will as my own desicion. America may look like it has Iraq but they&#39;ll need to beat out the Insurgance and the more America kills the more people will fight the US. Mao said that the people are the most valuable and most important weapon in war, more powerful then the A-bomb and to get the people you have to win their hearts & minds. People all over the world oppose America being in Iraq, Americans oppose America being in Iraq, and Iraqis oppose America being in Iraq. According to Mao&#39;s Little Red Book this will be the force that will beat the US. The Christian god and Muslim god are one in the same except Christians also worship the Prophet Jesus as God&#39;s son and we dont worship him at all.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by NoXion+Jun 12 2006, 02:09 PM--> (NoXion @ Jun 12 2006, 02:09 PM)
[email protected] 12 2006, 03:27 AM
Anarchism is messed up in the first place.
Congratulations, you&#39;ve just earned your first warning point for useless sectarian trolling flamebait. [/b]
Funny how this only happens when someone cracks a joke at the expense of anarchism and yet the ludicrous slurs against so-called Leninists or Trotsyists go unpunished. It&#39;s also quite amusing that an Anarchist forum uses such an authoritarian device as warning points.

Back on point:

I don&#39;t see why there should be a huge contradiction between being a Christian and being an anarchist. Both systems of thought are based on a supernatural belief:

One believes in the miracle of the incarnation; the other believes in the miracle of a spontaneously self-organising society.

[emma_goldman]

Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 12 2006, 04:42 PM
One believes in the miracle of the incarnation; the other believes in the miracle of a spontaneously self-organising society.
Anarchists believe in a spontaneously self-organising society? News to me&#33; Actually the anarchist spectrum is so broad, you can&#39;t really make many definitive statements about it and certainly not one so absurd. ;)

[violencia.Proletariat]

People who think you cannot be revolutionary and still believe in a higher power are pretty oppressive.

Is it oppressive to think that if you jump off a cliff you will fall because of gravity? Being a revolutionary materialist and being a theist at the same time IS A CONTRADICTION of deffinitions. There is nothing "oppressive" about it.


Anyone who calls themselves an anarchist and wants to abolish religion is not an anarchist because it makes them the authority against the majority of the world, repressing them saying they cannot believe what they want

So the Spanish anarchists weren&#39;t really anarchists eh? :rolleyes: I guess shooting fascist priests and having the people of the communities destroy the religious institutions themselves is really oppressive.

Here it is plain and simple. We wish to destroy the organized religious institutions. If people want to godsuck in their homes, thats fine and they are free to do it without interruption.


Abolishing religion is NOT in the proletariats interest and goes against materialism seeing as how the majority are religious and have been since as far back as history goes.

Abolishing religion has always been in the interest of the proletariat. Religion is a reactionary social force that always wishes to tone down or eradicate any radical behavior.

Do you even know what materialism is?&#33; A materialist society can not be a religious society. Materialists accept material reality, theists do not. IF materialists are to let religion go unchallenged whats the point of this whole "communist" thing if we aren&#39;t actually going to change society.

Your "majority" is declining each and every year. The advanced capitalist countries, where communist revolution will happen first, have declining religious rates. About 25% of their populations are atheist/non religious, this number grows each year.


Everything is pretermined, Allah will assist whom He will and be on the side of whom He will

Fuck Allah. If that asshole actually existed we&#39;d execute him.

[RedAnarchist]

Christian Anarchists sound strange - they want a society free of hierarchy and authority, yet they want to keep in place one of history&#39;s most oppressive and hierarchical authorities? I&#39;m sorry, but I cannot consider them to be anarchists.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 05:05 PM

People who think you cannot be revolutionary and still believe in a higher power are pretty oppressive.

Is it oppressive to think that if you jump off a cliff you will fall because of gravity? Being a revolutionary materialist and being a theist at the same time IS A CONTRADICTION of deffinitions. There is nothing "oppressive" about it.


Anyone who calls themselves an anarchist and wants to abolish religion is not an anarchist because it makes them the authority against the majority of the world, repressing them saying they cannot believe what they want

So the Spanish anarchists weren&#39;t really anarchists eh? :rolleyes: I guess shooting fascist priests and having the people of the communities destroy the religious institutions themselves is really oppressive.

Here it is plain and simple. We wish to destroy the organized religious institutions. If people want to godsuck in their homes, thats fine and they are free to do it without interruption.


Abolishing religion is NOT in the proletariats interest and goes against materialism seeing as how the majority are religious and have been since as far back as history goes.

Abolishing religion has always been in the interest of the proletariat. Religion is a reactionary social force that always wishes to tone down or eradicate any radical behavior.

Do you even know what materialism is?&#33; A materialist society can not be a religious society. Materialists accept material reality, theists do not. IF materialists are to let religion go unchallenged whats the point of this whole "communist" thing if we aren&#39;t actually going to change society.

Your "majority" is declining each and every year. The advanced capitalist countries, where communist revolution will happen first, have declining religious rates. About 25% of their populations are atheist/non religious, this number grows each year.


Everything is pretermined, Allah will assist whom He will and be on the side of whom He will

Fuck Allah. If that asshole actually existed we&#39;d execute him.
I&#39;d report this but the CC play favorites despite their "revolutionary" mask. So...fuck you.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 12 2006, 08:24 PM--> (Johnny Anarcho @ Jun 12 2006, 08:24 PM)
[email protected] 12 2006, 05:05 PM

People who think you cannot be revolutionary and still believe in a higher power are pretty oppressive.

Is it oppressive to think that if you jump off a cliff you will fall because of gravity? Being a revolutionary materialist and being a theist at the same time IS A CONTRADICTION of deffinitions. There is nothing "oppressive" about it.


Anyone who calls themselves an anarchist and wants to abolish religion is not an anarchist because it makes them the authority against the majority of the world, repressing them saying they cannot believe what they want

So the Spanish anarchists weren&#39;t really anarchists eh? :rolleyes: I guess shooting fascist priests and having the people of the communities destroy the religious institutions themselves is really oppressive.

Here it is plain and simple. We wish to destroy the organized religious institutions. If people want to godsuck in their homes, thats fine and they are free to do it without interruption.


Abolishing religion is NOT in the proletariats interest and goes against materialism seeing as how the majority are religious and have been since as far back as history goes.

Abolishing religion has always been in the interest of the proletariat. Religion is a reactionary social force that always wishes to tone down or eradicate any radical behavior.

Do you even know what materialism is?&#33; A materialist society can not be a religious society. Materialists accept material reality, theists do not. IF materialists are to let religion go unchallenged whats the point of this whole "communist" thing if we aren&#39;t actually going to change society.

Your "majority" is declining each and every year. The advanced capitalist countries, where communist revolution will happen first, have declining religious rates. About 25% of their populations are atheist/non religious, this number grows each year.


Everything is pretermined, Allah will assist whom He will and be on the side of whom He will

Fuck Allah. If that asshole actually existed we&#39;d execute him.
I&#39;d report this but the CC play favorites despite their "revolutionary" mask. So...fuck you. [/b]
report what? This is a revolutionary leftist board. If you haven&#39;t got it yet, most if not all of us reject religion as much as we reject capitalism.

[Johnny Anarcho]

I got that, I just cant see how on an Anarchist board I&#39;m getting restricted because of a link on my sig and then you go say fuck God and nothing happens. Where is the justice in that? You arent revolutionaries your hypocrites. Saying that we should have no government and should have complete freedom then restrict me because I dont conform to the athiest mold.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by redstar2000+--> (redstar2000)Christian anarchism is an oxymoron. Why would any self-respecting anarchist want to have anything to do with anything gas self-evidently authoritarian as Christianity?[/b]I think that some of the Christian anarchists are not actually Christian in the sense of accepting Jesus as saviour. As they also reject all earthly authority on anything (dogma or secular) I think they qualify as anarchists. However, some of them do accept an Earthly power. Obviously these are not anarchists.


Originally posted by Citizen Zero+--> (Citizen Zero)One believes in the miracle of the incarnation; the other believes in the miracle of a spontaneously self-organising society.[/b]And that is just silly. Read a little about anarchism before making comments like this. If it is a troll, please refrain.


[email protected]
Is it oppressive to think that if you jump off a cliff you will fall because of gravity? Being a revolutionary materialist and being a theist at the same time IS A CONTRADICTION of deffinitions. There is nothing "oppressive" about it.But being a revolutionary and being a theist is not a contradiction of terms. May not be rational, but it&#39;s not a contradiction.

ThisAnarchistKillsNazis
Christian Anarchists sound strange - they want a society free of hierarchy and authority, yet they want to keep in place one of history&#39;s most oppressive and hierarchical authorities? I&#39;m sorry, but I cannot consider them to be anarchists.They want a society on Earth that is free of hierarchy and authority.
On a different but related question, do you have a template that you use to determine if someone is an anarchist or not? Or do you just know them when you see them?

[FinnMacCool]

I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but christian anarchists are my comrades. I don&#39;t care what they believe so long as they don&#39;t try to shove their beliefs down my throat. I think a lot of you need to excercise a bit more tolearance. I do, however, think that anarchists should keep religion sepeate as an idealogy. Remember, in anarchism religion wouldn&#39;t be abolished but certainly there would be no more ORGANIZED religion, and thats a very very good thing.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:13 AM
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but christian anarchists are my comrades. I don&#39;t care what they believe so long as they don&#39;t try to shove their beliefs down my throat. I think a lot of you need to excercise a bit more tolearance. I do, however, think that anarchists should keep religion sepeate as an idealogy. Remember, in anarchism religion wouldn&#39;t be abolished but certainly there would be no more ORGANIZED religion, and thats a very very good thing.
Well if were living in Anarchy we can do anything, so whats to prevent me from establishing a mosque.

[FinnMacCool]

Well if were living in Anarchy we can do anything, so whats to prevent me from establishing a mosque

I don&#39;t really see how a mosque has anything to do with it.

But thee is something in your post I should address concerning your view that anarchy means you can do whatever the fuck you want. Such is not the case. Its true that in anarchy people are going to have very very large freedom but you have to understand that since anarchism is extremely progressive, it is very difficult to see how anyone could be compelled to help out something that seems to be authoritarian. And since anarchism wishes to challenge injustice and authoritarianism, it is natural that there will be actions taken against things which breed those two unfortunate things.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:30 AM

Well if were living in Anarchy we can do anything, so whats to prevent me from establishing a mosque

I don&#39;t really see how a mosque has anything to do with it.

But thee is something in your post I should address concerning your view that anarchy means you can do whatever the fuck you want. Such is not the case. Its true that in anarchy people are going to have very very large freedom but you have to understand that since anarchism is extremely progressive, it is very difficult to see how anyone could be compelled to help out something that seems to be authoritarian. And since anarchism wishes to challenge injustice and authoritarianism, it is natural that there will be actions taken against things which breed those two unfortunate things.
You said there would be no organized religion, would that mean no mosques? Anarchism is basically the end of the rule of man over man so if people made interferences like your saying then wouldnt that be suppressing someonelse&#39;s free will.

[FinnMacCool]

You said there would be no organized religion, would that mean no mosques? Anarchism is basically the end of the rule of man over man so if people made interferences like your saying then wouldnt that be suppressing someonelse&#39;s free will.

Just as much as they have the freedom to believe what they want to believe withouto the thread of being shot, we have the right to live without having to be subject to relgious bullshit.l I see no harm in them simply being there but if they push it, they will be gone very quickly.

And I&#39;m not certain of what churches or mosques have to do with organized religion. I mean organized religion is like an updown type thing so having a place of worship doesn&#39;t neccesarily imply an updown hiearchy, does it?

[Comrade-Z]

Abolishing religion is NOT in the proletariats interest and goes against materialism seeing as how the majority are religious and have been since as far back as history goes.

One of the foremost "rules" of materialism is that things change. What exists now may not always exist forever.

In the advanced capitalist countries, the trend is unmistakably towards non-religious/atheism.

And it is in the proletariat&#39;s interest to abolish religion. The proletariat must be rational, sophisticated, and not plagued by unnecessary divisions (such as religion) if it is to be successful in emancipating itself from wage-slavery and class society.


the revolution isn&#39;t about who fits what ideology and does this according to Marxist principles, its about freeing the prolateriat.

Or, rather, helping the proletariat free itself, which it cannot do when it is crippled with superstition and the usual corresponding leader-worship.


Just because you&#39;re an anarchist, does not mean you have to be rational (see primitvists for another example).

Well, you&#39;re right, primitivists certainly aren&#39;t rational. :lol:

That&#39;s one reason why I don&#39;t accept them as comrades. Ditto with Christian "anarchists."

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Funny how this only happens when someone cracks a joke at the expense of anarchism and yet the ludicrous slurs against so-called Leninists or Trotsyists go unpunished. It&#39;s also quite amusing that an Anarchist forum uses such an authoritarian device as warning points.

Are you actually going to demonstrate how LeftyHenry&#39;s comment was anything other than unnecessary flamebait, or are you going to ignore the enormous fuss made over RAAN and whinge about "oppression" on the internet of all places?

And please, how are warning points authoritarian? The don&#39;t restrict one&#39;s ability to post or anything like that. I suppose you would prefer it if I bought up his behaviour in the CC as an example of trolling?


I got that, I just cant see how on an Anarchist board I&#39;m getting restricted because of a link on my sig and then you go say fuck God and nothing happens. Where is the justice in that? You arent revolutionaries your hypocrites. Saying that we should have no government and should have complete freedom then restrict me because I dont conform to the athiest mold.

Governments control societies and nation-states, RevLeft is neither of those.


I think that some of the Christian anarchists are not actually Christian in the sense of accepting Jesus as saviour. As they also reject all earthly authority on anything (dogma or secular) I think they qualify as anarchists.

OK, if they don&#39;t accept Jesus has as a saviour, how the hell can they be Christian? That&#39;s one of the central tenets of Christianity.
Also, they may reject any earthly authority (And in doing so go against the Bible by the way) but they accept a heavenly authority, the rule of god. A non-human master. How is that even remotely anarchist?

[emma_goldman]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 13 2006, 04:00 AM--> (Johnny Anarcho @ Jun 13 2006, 04:00 AM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 03:30 AM

Well if were living in Anarchy we can do anything, so whats to prevent me from establishing a mosque

I don&#39;t really see how a mosque has anything to do with it.

But thee is something in your post I should address concerning your view that anarchy means you can do whatever the fuck you want. Such is not the case. Its true that in anarchy people are going to have very very large freedom but you have to understand that since anarchism is extremely progressive, it is very difficult to see how anyone could be compelled to help out something that seems to be authoritarian. And since anarchism wishes to challenge injustice and authoritarianism, it is natural that there will be actions taken against things which breed those two unfortunate things.
You said there would be no organized religion, would that mean no mosques? Anarchism is basically the end of the rule of man over man so if people made interferences like your saying then wouldnt that be suppressing someonelse&#39;s free will. [/b]
I think there would still be organized religion as in organized worship but it would be different because it wouldn&#39;t be an entity. :P

[emma_goldman]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 13 2006, 03:15 AM
Well if were living in Anarchy we can do anything, so whats to prevent me from establishing a mosque.
Anarchy doesn&#39;t necessarily mean no rules. ;) I&#39;m not saying that you wouldn&#39;t be able to...but just consider that.... :blink:

[STI]

Well if were living in Anarchy we can do anything, so whats to prevent me from establishing a mosque.

Unlike the self-professed anarchist who posted above me, I will say that you won&#39;t be able to build a mosque.

Anarchy doesn&#39;t mean "you get to do whatever you want", and I&#39;m wondering what ideological kitchen you visited to cook up that notion.

So, what would stop you? The fact that any attempt at a mosque in a communist society would be torn down as per the decision of the collective decision-making assembly for the community.

Why? Because rational, progressive people recognize the anti-progressive and anti-human influence that religion has, and would rightly see it as nothing but a potential breeding-ground for reactionary counter-revolutionaries.

Now, should you decide to make too much of a nuisance of yourself, you can always be executed.



You&#39;ll note the absence of "joking smilies".

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by NoXion
OK, if they don&#39;t accept Jesus has as a saviour, how the hell can they be Christian? That&#39;s one of the central tenets of Christianity.
Also, they may reject any earthly authority (And in doing so go against the Bible by the way) but they accept a heavenly authority, the rule of god. A non-human master. How is that even remotely anarchist?
I don&#39;t know how they can be Christian. And the reason that I accept at least some as being anarchist is that they reject all authority over them. While they may say that they accept the rule of God, in reality (because there is no God) they accept no rule.

Just because I accept them as anarchists, does not mean I accept them as comrades however.



Note to those who had not already realised: STI is really quite authoritarian in a strange way. I bet he even thinks the community will make people work&#33;

[STI]

Originally posted by Apathy Maybe
While they may say that they accept the rule of God, in reality (because there is no God) they accept no rule.

They&#39;ll still accept the what they think is "God&#39;s rule", and you don&#39;t need to look any further than Deuteronomy to see just how "anarchist" "God&#39;s rule" is.


STI is really quite authoritarian in a strange way.

I am authoritarian... against reactionaries&#33;.

Not in any "personal" sense. I don&#39;t plan on fighting for a society where any one person, much less myself, has the ability to do that.

But oppression of class enemies by the entire class is not only "permissible" in my books, but altogether necessary. Otherwise, they&#39;ll just organize and start a civil war... then another... then another. Wiping their ideology out by making sure it isn&#39;t disseminated seems like a more prudent move on our part.


I bet he even thinks the community will make people work&#33;

Just so that it&#39;s established, it was AM who started the mudslinging.

Onwards and upwards, no. No I don&#39;t think that. Voluntary labour is a necessity for a functioning classless society.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by STI+Jun 14 2006, 07:57 AM--> (STI @ Jun 14 2006, 07:57 AM)
Apathy Maybe
While they may say that they accept the rule of God, in reality (because there is no God) they accept no rule.

They&#39;ll still accept the what they think is "God&#39;s rule", and you don&#39;t need to look any further than Deuteronomy to see just how "anarchist" "God&#39;s rule" is.


STI is really quite authoritarian in a strange way.

I am authoritarian... against reactionaries&#33;.

Not in any "personal" sense. I don&#39;t plan on fighting for a society where any one person, much less myself, has the ability to do that.

But oppression of class enemies by the entire class is not only "permissible" in my books, but altogether necessary. Otherwise, they&#39;ll just organize and start a civil war... then another... then another. Wiping their ideology out by making sure it isn&#39;t disseminated seems like a more prudent move on our part.


I bet he even thinks the community will make people work&#33;

Just so that it&#39;s established, it was AM who started the mudslinging.

Onwards and upwards, no. No I don&#39;t think that. Voluntary labour is a necessity for a functioning classless society. [/b]
Everything Jesus said counters Deuteronomy and Christian Anarchists go by Christ&#39;s teachings. Thats why they say that there is no authority except God, so if they believe Jesus is God (which they do) then you can expect them to follow directly what Jesus said. This being the case thats why they dont believe in violent revolution because Jesus said turn the other cheek.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

*Ahem*


Originally posted by The Bible

Ephesians 6:5
Servants be obedient to them that are your masters.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves uto your own husbands.

Colossians 3:20
Children, obey your parents.

Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters.

1 Timothy :1
Let as many servant as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor.

Titus 2:9
Exhort servants to be obedient totheir won masters, and to please them in all things.

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Yes, very anarchist indeed...

[apathy maybe]

I&#39;m not really trying to defend the beliefs of religious anarchists, just to argue that some of them are anarchists (even if it means that they are not really the religion they claim, such as Christianity). If they fight my loose definition, then I&#39;ll accept them as anarchists, not necessarily comrades however.

And as to being authoritarian, I guess STI and I just have different opinions on freedom. Diversity is good.


Originally posted by STI
Just so that it&#39;s established, it was AM who started the mudslinging.

Onwards and upwards, no. No I don&#39;t think that. Voluntary labour is a necessity for a functioning classless society.
Yes I started the "mudslinging" and I apologise. I should not have made such an un-justified statement. I personally see certain other things (ability to freely worship to a limited extent) as also essential to a classless society. Again diversity is good.

[STI]

Originally posted by Apathy Maybe
Again diversity is good.

I&#39;m down with diversity so long as that diversity doesn&#39;t include reaction.

In the case of mosques and churches, I look forward to using a diversity of methods to see them destroyed. :D


, just to argue that some [Christians] are anarchists

That&#39;s one of the problems with "the anarchist movement" - pretty much anybody can find a place where they will be accepted as legitimate anarchists... but that&#39;s a problem with "anarchism", not useful anarchism.

[apathy maybe]

Sure I won&#39;t argue with that. I didn&#39;t say that they were rational or comrades or even useful, just that they were anarchists (if they fit the definition provided (I did provide a definition didn&#39;t I?)).