13 de Marzo massacre

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What is your opinion regarding the 13 de Marzo?

Do you support this action by the Cuban government?

Would you support similar massacres today?

[WUOrevolt]

What exactly happened?

[Marx_was_right!]

I support revolution but not brutal killings. Capitalism is already in rather a late stage. Hopefully it will naturally fall into decay soon once the Imperialist U.S overreaches itself.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Capitalism is already in rather a late stage. Hopefully it will naturally fall into decay soon once the Imperialist U.S overreaches itself.

What has this to do with the 13 de Marzo incident?

[Vendetta]

What is the 13 de marzo massacre?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_de_Marzo_Incident

[Operation Red Flag]

:lol: You use wikipedia as a source?

That just doesn't cut it

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by Operation Red [email protected] 12 2006, 01:55 PM
:lol: You use wikipedia as a source?

That just doesn't cut it
I don't see what's wrong with wikipedia.

But, interesting.

I wouldn't support any of that kind of action, considering.

Unless of course it's in the early days of the revolution and those being targeted are among the ranks of Sam Walton and Ann Coulter. ;)

[Operation Red Flag]

I don't see what's wrong with wikipedia.
There's nothing "wrong" with wikipedia (it's an excellent site) my beef is that you can't cite it as a source on contentious issues because of it's editable nature

If NWOG was to present pictures of bodies, documents, witnesses, etc we could have a debate - otherwise, I think we can accept that this is probably Cuban-exile BS


Ann Coulter. ;)
Totally; some of her views make me sick


Do you support this action by the Cuban government?

Would you support similar massacres today?
I would never support any 'massacre', no true Socialist would.

I personally believe these people may have died in a tragic accident as they were attempting to leave in an antiquated boat with no proper sailors but I think more evidence is required NWOG.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I presented that article because it would give you a clue, and is pretty much the same story you will hear elsewhere. Don't complain if you are too lazy to not find a better source yourself.


otherwise, I think we can accept that this is probably Cuban-exile BS

Thats just silly. Shall we say everything negative happening in Cuba, every abuse is Cuban-exile BS? That's just paranoia and a poor excuse. Are you afraid of discussions and debates?

Is there anything to support that this was not an attack on innocent people?

[WUOrevolt]

From what I have read, it was nothing but an attack on civilians, nothing short of a massacre. I don't see how anyone can support an action like this.

[Operation Red Flag]

I presented that article because it would give you a clue, and is pretty much the same story you will hear elsewhere. Don't complain if you are too lazy to not find a better source yourself.
I found many sources. They all describe the attack as you say but I still do not trust them, especially as they are all pro-American


Thats just silly. Shall we say everything negative happening in Cuba, every abuse is Cuban-exile BS?
Of course not, if we can find a reliable source for the evidence. Cuba is no utopia but it is nowhere near as bad as the exiles would have you think.


That's just paranoia and a poor excuse
Hardly, the Cuban exiles are horribly prejudiced against Castro's Cuba, mainly because they lost the priveliges they enjoyed under Batista. Here is a sample of a Cuban exile


Although I hate him, I offer this quick biography of the man/devil to merely provide insight into his life and help users attain a better grasp of the heinous man.
Fair and balanced? Or irrational and stupid...


Is there anything to support that this was not an attack on innocent people?
As I couldn't find any coverage of this 'massacre' in the mainstream media or Socialist journals I'll make do with this from a humanrights website (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cases/1996/cuba47-96.htm) which actually gives both sides of the story.


"We know exactly what happened: one boat positioned itself in front to try to slow the speed, another boat positioned itself behind, and another boat went to the side, but none of the crews had the intention of sinking that boat. They were attempting something very difficult, actually, that is, to stop a boat. All of this happened at night, on a dark night, in rough seas; in these conditions there were trying to stop it until the Coast Guard patrol boats arrived. This is how the accident happened: the one that went behind collided with the stern--and sailors and everyone who knows anything about the sea will realize that this is perfectly possible--of the stolen tug, the one that had been taken, with the 13 de Marzo, and that is how the collision occurred that led to the sinking; that's how it was; it was really an accident, and this was thoroughly investigated by the authorities, the Ministry of the Interior investigated and there was not the slightest intention to sink the boat. What are we going to do with those workers who did not want them to steal their boat, who made a truly patriotic effort, we might say, to stop them from stealing the boat? What are we going to say to them? Listen, let them steal the boat, don't worry about the boat, and they went out to try--even though it was not their job--to keep them from stealing the boat."
That is an official Cuban governemnt statement.

I think we should go over the established facts.

1) The escapees had disabled the communications from the port, communications to the coast guard were actually cut off

2) It was at night, on the rough Cuban seas

3) No water-cannons are mentioned in any neutral sources

4) 31 people were saved, despite the Cubans supposedly sinking the tug "on purpose".

Let me just add one final comment; why were these people travelling like this - In dangerous conditions, on an old tugboat in the middle of the night? It is because the US government refuses to grant visas to Cubans who wish to leave the island. Then, when tragedies like this occur the US hypocritically condemns Castro.

I will accept that the Cuban authorities ordered that the boat be sunk if you can provide non-biased evidence. I am no ardent supporter of the Cuban government and my opinion is open to change but I will not accept the word of Batistanos or American cheerleaders.

[Operation Red Flag]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:22 AM
From what I have read, it was nothing but an attack on civilians, nothing short of a massacre. I don't see how anyone can support an action like this.
Here's a bit on anti-Castro terrorist Luis Posada from a pro-American source

Anti-Castro terrorist seeks asylum in US (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/09/148243)

Blowing up an airliner with 73 people on board? Yes that is indeed an "attack on civilians, nothing short of a massacre".

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Of course not, if we can find a reliable source for the evidence. Cuba is no utopia but it is nowhere near as bad as the exiles would have you think.

And not as good as you would have us to think.

Operation Red Flag, you must realize that Cuban exiles are not everywhere. And those who are, not everyone of them are monsters. Blaming everything and claiming the cuban-exiles write everything except what the cuban government writes, is a stupid notion.

[Operation Red Flag]

And not as good as you would have us to think.
:huh:

I haven't even mentioned Cuba's domestic policies, I have simply critiscised your sources and provided alternatives. If you read my posts you'll realise I've been critical of Cuba througout.


Operation Red Flag, you must realize that Cuban exiles are not everywhere
Of course. Some of the sources were also pro-American garbage.


And those who are, not everyone of them are monsters
Of course not, I apologise if I over-generalised the exiles but the majority of Cuban exiles are anti-Castro and pro-American.

Now if you could refute any of my previous argument please

ORF

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I haven't even mentioned Cuba's domestic policies, I have simply critiscised your sources and provided alternatives. If you read my posts you'll realise I've been critical of Cuba througout.

OK. Point taken.


Now if you could refute any of my previous argument please

What arguments? Regarding the Cuban official story?

[Cheung Mo]

That most Cuban-exiles are right-wing goons who constantly spew pro-Washington garbage is an estbalished fact.

Making inferences from this fact is no different than saying (for instance that an overwhelming majority of Russians are either complicit or openly supportive of the atrocities occurring in Chechnya because virtually all of them back political parties who are responsible for it (which, in Russia, is pretty well every relevant party other than social liberal Yabloko and the market liberal Union of Rightist Forces...I probably wouldn't vote if I were Russian...From a civil liberties perspective, the only Russian parties I can stomach also disagree with me on just about every econoic issue.).

[Karl Marx's Camel]

That most Cuban-exiles are right-wing goons who constantly spew pro-Washington garbage is an estbalished fact.


However, not all of them.

[pcb]

2 sides of a story that resulted in deaths of the innocent. Cuba is not a paradise but with the embargo and the radio waves being swamped by US propaganda will encourage people to defect to a life of, for the majority, poor hispanic neighbourhoods in Florida. The US has tried by dirty means to undermine the Cuban Revolution resorting to bombings, poisonings, biological warfare and selective murder. This does not give the Cuban Government the right to do what they do, but, don't pontificate without giving the other side reasons.