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apathy maybe
11th June 2006, 10:25
An essay I wrote for a Philosophy class. All the footnotes are gone, but they were just references. Some of the formating is fucked, I blame MS Word (I use OpenOffice.org normally). Ideas on this essay or the general topic are welcome. And like my other essays, if you want a referencable site, PM me and I'll give it to you.


This essay will discuss the "brain in a vat" and similar hypothesis (such as computer simulations and the idea that we are dreaming), and discuss whether it is something that people should worry about. It will firstly explain what these hypotheses are, before exploring possible problems and advantages of such scenarios. It will then examine the plausibility of them (using Ockham's razor, and by examining the problem of reference) and the actual impact on ones life if any of them are actually true. The essay concludes that if we cannot tell the difference, and have no knowledge, then it does not matter.

The basic conception of a "brain in a vat" is that an individual is no more then a mind that is being stimulated by an external force, and that the world, as the individual understands it, does not exist, except as stimulations in that individuals mind (or perhaps in a computer simulation). These ideas are skeptical hypothesis, the aim of which is to raise doubt about the existence of anything. If you do not know that you are not a brain in a vat, then you can not know anything about the external world. This conception of limited knowledge is not a new idea and traces back to at least Descartes.

Descartes imagined an evil demon that "employ[ed] all his industry in misleading [him]" . This demon could not, however, mislead Descartes about the existence of himself. Which lead to Descartes to the conclusion that "I think, therefore I am". He then went on to 'disprove' his own hypothesis, based on proofs of the existence of God.

Descartes came to his idea that an evil demon might be manipulating his world, from thoughts on dreaming and hallucinations. Other philosophers have considered the possibility that we are dreaming rather then living a real life. Chuang Tzu after a night in which he dreamed that he was a butterfly, asked, if he was in fact a butterfly dreaming that it was Chuang Tzu. Dreaming is different to other skeptical hypotheses as it does not include an external, potentially 'malevolent', actor. However, like other skeptical hypotheses it is not possible for (most) people to realize that they are dreaming.

A more modern variant on Descartes idea is that an individual is actually a brain in a vat that is being stimulated by electronic impulses from a giant supercomputer. This computer is able to create a 'virtual reality' based on impulses from the brain. If the brain attempts to move an arm, the computer sends back impulses that make it seem as if the arm has been moved.

However, there are other ideas that conceive of not just one individual being 'deceived', but rather everyone. These have come more into prominence since the creation of computers. Computer simulations have been used to simulate various things, from cities to weather to life itself. These have given rise to thoughts that perhaps people are not actually living in a real world, but rather living in a simulation. Variations on this include everyone being in vats connected up to the same computer.

Science fiction such as William Gibson's book Necromancer discusses the idea of computer simulations that are indistinguishable from real life. One variant has the body of a person still alive while it is simply their mind that is occupying the virtual reality, and another type where it is the mind alone that exists, inside the simulation, the body having died.

Because there is so much thought given to such possibilities, it is not surprising that some philosophers have problems with living in such scenarios. Some philosophers feel that a simulated life is un-authentic, that real life is somehow 'better'. In his book Anarchy, State and Utopia, Robert Nozick mentions that "the experience machine" is not as 'real' as real life, that experiences in the machine are not connected with actual events or actions. He does not, however, give a reason for this beyond that a person in the machine is not actually doing what is going on in the machine (though that person is experiencing without knowledge that what they are experiencing is not real, and thus for the person they are doing that activity).

This and similar objections are merely these philosophers valuing an 'objective' experience beyond the subjective experience of the individual concerned. If an individual cannot have knowledge that they are not part of a simulation, then it does not matter to them what the 'objective' truth is, as it has no impact on them.

Just like there are potential problems with living in a 'fake' world, there are advantages in not living in the real world. These come down to the idea that the virtual world is potentially 'better' then the real one. Even if the experiences are not 'real' objectively, to the person experiencing them they are real and that is all that matters to that person. The only other advantage is that in certain scenarios (e.g. computer simulations), life might be longer then otherwise. However, in this world, it does not appear that this is the case. Though in most cases the person is unable to choice if anymore then anyone else if they are going to have a good life.

The plausibility of these scenarios, regardless of desirability or otherwise, is brought into question when one considers three arguments against them. The first is the use of Ockham's razor. While it is not apparently found in any of William of Ockham's writings it bears his name. The razor states that "Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity". This means that given two equally valid hypotheses we should select the simplest one, the one that has the fewer assumptions.

A simple example of this is that the Earth is the center of the universe, or it is not. For the Earth to be at the center of the universe, there is the requirement of very complex mathematics for the planets to orbit the Earth. For the alternative, that the Earth and other planets circles the Sun, the mathematics are much simpler (and it just happens to fit with observed facts). Similarly for aliens to have visited Earth requires many assumptions, such as they have very advanced technology (possibly enabling them to travel faster then the speed of light), are interested in Earth and so on. The alternative, that aliens do not visit Earth* can be explained by stating that some people have seen things that they simply think are aliens or that they are in an altered state of consciousness, or that people are simply lying. All these are much more plausible compared to the first set of assumptions.

As with God, fairies and aliens, there is no evidence that an individual or humans as a whole are being feed a simulated existence. This is due to the nature of the problem. So faced with two alternatives, one humans are part of a computer simulation (or an individual is a brain in a vat), or two that they are not, the first requires an added assumption that the second does not, therefore the second should be preferred. There is no evidence that we are part of a simulation (due to the nature of the problem) and we should rationally choose the simpler of the two alternatives. That is, we are not living in a simulation and are not a brain in a vat.

Another argument is that of reference. In none of these scenarios is it possible to tell if you are in one of them, from the inside (which is the only reference point). Because this is the case, we cannot refer to objects or things outside the simulation. If I am a brain in a vat, then I cannot consider my self to be a brain in a vat, therefore I am not a brain in a vat (at least for me). If you were living in a brain in a vat, "nothing in your experience could possibly reveal that you were; for your experience is ex hypothesi identical with that of something which is not a brain in a vat."

Ultimately it does not really matter if a person is a brain in a vat or not. It is not possible to tell from the individual who's brain is in the vat that it is the case, and in the more general case of everyone being part of a simulation there is no way for anyone to tell.

As such, while it is impossible to 'know' if you are doing something (such as reading this essay), and all your beliefs maybe false, it is impossible to 'not-know'. From your perspective anyway, you are reading the essay, and you cannot perceive yourself from another perspective.

It does not matter if we are being manipulated by an 'evil' demon or are living in a computer simulation. There is no way of knowing if we are or are not, and there is nothing we can do in either case. Worry in such cases is pointless, and discussion or thought about such matters does not directly produce anything of value.

Another argument for it not mattering is that for the universe to exist inside a supercomputer (either with humans inside it as well, or existing as 'brains in vats') requires a set of physical laws that do not exist in this universe. This is because it is not possible to simulate this universe inside it self. So even if we are living in a simulation, the laws of the universe in which the simulation exist (the 'real world') are radically different to this ('virtual') world. As such, it would not be desirable to live in the non-simulated world, even if we could.

The idea of a "brain in a vat" is not new, and while it is an interesting hypothesis, it is impossible for an individual to know if they are actually living in the 'real world' or if they are living in a simulated world. If they were living in a simulated world, they would have to treat it as the 'real world' as they would have no other reference point. While they may feel that it might not be real there is no way to show one way or the other, and nothing could be done in either case. It is also more simple, if humans are not living in a simulated world. For these reasons while it is an interesting idea to day dream about, discussion can ultimately do nothing in determining one way or the other if people are living in a 'real world' or not, and it is more likely that people are.

Bibliography.
Dancy, Jonathan. Introduction to Contemporary Epistemology in 'Philosophy: Brains in Vats and The Evil Demon', http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_c...phil_brain.html (http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/new_phil_brain.html) (accessed 27/04/2006)
Gibson, William. Neuromancer. London: Grafton, 1986.
Hicke, Lance P. 'The ÅgBrain in a VatÅh Argument', The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, http://www.iep.utm.edu/b/brainvat.htm (accessed 27/04/2006).
Nozick, Robert. Anarchy, State, And Utopia. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1974.
Russell, Bertrand. History of Western Philosophy. London: George Allen & Unwin Ltd, 1961.
Zipoli, Richard. 'Chuang TzuÅfs Butterfly Dream', http://www.haianpagoda.org/Andrew/newsletter/Chuang.htm (accessed 26/04/2006)

RebelDog
11th June 2006, 15:57
I have always found the brain in a vat theory interesting. There is no way of knowing if one is a brain in a vat, I think thats a given. One interesting point that occured to me when I was reading your piece about the likellyhood of being a brain in a vat; Say we do live in the real world right now, we (humans) could one day be in a technological position to carry this out on animals or other humans. We talk about the brian/vat today but I think there would be scientists who (given the technology) would carry this out right now. It could be used to extract information from enemies forinstance. The whole concept of a lifetime from birth to death could be simulated with the time you feel passing just a few minutes in the lab. Those who controlled the brain in a vat would need to be in a real world to do it. Maybe those contolling the brain in a vat are actually a brain in a vat themselves and are being controlled to think they control a brain in a vat!

emma_goldman
12th June 2006, 03:05
Wonderful essay. I agree wholeheartedly. Gah, skepticism is horrid, mainly because it's useless thinking. You can't really ever disprove it, it's like fighting with Christians over the idea of "faith". I like the way you went with the article though. Great job. :D

Janus
12th June 2006, 05:51
So, you're basically talking about solipsism, which is simply a extreme form of idealism?

I have to agree that we should remain skeptical of our surroundings and that there is no such thing as absolute reality since our perceptions are basically a bunch of signals processed by our brains.

Of course, it really can't be proven or disproven.

apathy maybe
12th June 2006, 10:29
The Dissenter: The point is, even if the technology is available, anybody in that situation would not know that they were. (Actually at this stage we could not simulate sufficiently the universe so that a simulation would be 'perfect'.)

And in this universe we cannot simulate the entire universe as it is basically too large.

emma_goldman: Glad you liked it. I did make the link to 'proving' the existence of God in the essay.
I agree that trying to work out if we are living in a simulated world is a waste of time. Mental masturbation, fun, but produces nothing.

Janus: I don't know what solipsism is. This was for a first year philosophy class, I have not done much advanced stuff in philosophy yet.
I actually do think there is such a thing as absolute reality, but it exists apart from thoughts etc. If a tree falls in a forest, it makes a sound, even if there is no one to hear it. But I cannot prove it :)

RebelDog
12th June 2006, 19:32
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 12 2006, 07:30 AM
The Dissenter: The point is, even if the technology is available, anybody in that situation would not know that they were. (Actually at this stage we could not simulate sufficiently the universe so that a simulation would be 'perfect'.)

And in this universe we cannot simulate the entire universe as it is basically too large.


I don't understand how this is a problem. The reality for the brain in the vat would come entirely from messages sent to it by its controller. The controller would live in the real world and the brain in a virtual reality which could include anything the controller desired it to. This virtual reality would exist within the real universe and be entirely subjective. I'm not arguing that you or I are brains in a vat, I think the idea is absurd, its just a thought experiment to show how some things can never be proved/disproved.

emma_goldman
12th June 2006, 19:40
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 12 2006, 07:30 AM
Janus: I don't know what solipsism is. This was for a first year philosophy class, I have not done much advanced stuff in philosophy yet.
I actually do think there is such a thing as absolute reality, but it exists apart from thoughts etc. If a tree falls in a forest, it makes a sound, even if there is no one to hear it. But I cannot prove it :)
Solipism is a form of skepticism. It states that nothing but the self exists or atleast that you cannot trust anything existing but the self. :)

I agree with the Dissenter though, just look at the Socratic dialogues by Plato. :P

apathy maybe
13th June 2006, 06:07
The Dissenter: Umm... So the whole thing is absurd. That is what I concluded too.

emma_goldman: Thanks. So Descartes started from solipism?
And while I have read the Republic, I don't remember what relation it had with this topic?

mikelepore
13th June 2006, 14:26
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 13 2006, 03:08 AM
So Descartes started from solipism?
I'd say no. Descartes didn't doubt that the world is real. He only presumed that the big questions about reality are answered by thinking about them with mathematics-like reasoning, and not from experience. I think solipsism is at the other extreme. Descartes, somewhat like Plato, proposed rationalism -- if you want to discover things, just sit down and think real hard. But solipsism is an idealist form of empiricism. It focuses on the senses. I view Berkeley as the big solipsist, where he would say that having a sensation is no indication that what we think is out there causing it is actually out there. Somehow this sensation of "there's a tree" has been plugged into us, but there's no basis for supposing that it was a tree that did it. All we know is that it's some form of input. (So he claimed.) Maybe it's the holodeck from Star Trek.

Funny thing - there actually was a case, in the 1960s or 1970s I think, where a solipsist professor sued the college that didn't pay him his salary. The judge remarked jokingly that the complaint could be heard only if the plaintiff would admit the existence of the defendant.

I think the bottom line is that this brain-in-a-vat concept has no consequences. Real or a dream, either way, if you build a bridge out of tissue paper across a canyon, the solipsist isn't going to step on it. (Why not? Probably because they don't sincerely believe their own "theory.") A hypothesis that has no consequences can be played with as a conjecture, but it can't go any further. Same problem with the parallel universe hypothesis -- no consequences for making any decision in life.

The "praise God" practice of religion is another idea without consequences. You're suuposed to praise God. But what should I do? Well, say "Praise the Lord" a lot, and occasionally "Hallalujah." Yeah, but what should I actually do? Well, sway back and forth, and wave your arms around, and just say it. Yeah, but what should I _do_? -- Clearly this self-referential idea has no practical consequences (except to waste one's time by doing something stupid).

Mike Lepore
email lepore at bestweb dot net
http://www.deleonism.org/

emma_goldman
13th June 2006, 16:20
Actually I think he did.

Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am.
Descartes said that we cannot doubt that that the self but he could doubt the existence of the body, separate from the self (as Descartes was a dualist).

In other words, the things that are without a doubt sure are the only things we should consider to exist. This is how solipism and Descartes agree. However, Descartes is not a solipist. :)

RebelDog
13th June 2006, 23:03
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 13 2006, 03:08 AM
The Dissenter: Umm... So the whole thing is absurd. That is what I concluded too.

emma_goldman: Thanks. So Descartes started from solipism?
And while I have read the Republic, I don't remember what relation it had with this topic?
I said it was absurd incase anyone thought I thought I was a brain in a vat. I know you think its absurd too, I did read your whole article.

SocialistGenius
25th June 2006, 07:41
I found the theory intruiging. What if in the future we have the technology to do this, and we decide to do so because the world has been decimated from capitalism and we can no longer live any happy lives in it? Or maybe there's another reason such as simply wanting to create a socialist, egalitarian society in a world of oppressive states.

Perhaps we'd put our own brains into 'vats' connected to supercomputers (in which we'd all be connected to eachother together), in an attempt to live in a more preferrable reality, or even a utopian reality. Another advantage to this would be the ability to "start over" if any permanent damage were done to the virtual world.

There would be the obvious disadvantage of not living in the real world, of course.

encephalon
25th June 2006, 11:17
Perhaps we'd put our own brains into 'vats' connected to supercomputers (in which we'd all be connected to eachother together), in an attempt to live in a more preferrable reality, or even a utopian reality. Another advantage to this would be the ability to "start over" if any permanent damage were done to the virtual world.

Been there, done that. See Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc.

There's no escaping the real world; only prolonging the inevitable.

emma_goldman
25th June 2006, 21:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 08:18 AM
Been there, done that. See Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc.

There's no escaping the real world; only prolonging the inevitable.
The Matrix....

BurnTheOliveTree
26th June 2006, 15:54
I agree. It is immaterial whether the world is virtual or real, because the reality is qualitatively identical. It absolutely doesn't matter. :)

Pretty cool food for thought though.

-Alex

BurnTheOliveTree
26th June 2006, 15:57
Also, I have a theory on the computer simulation version of the argument. If we were, in fact, just simulations, we would quickly become out of date. Over say, 100 years, we would be forgotten. After this point, there would be no point for the "External force" to keep us in existence, as it would have new and improved simulations. By virtue of the fact that we continue to exist on any level, we can conclude that we are at least not a computer simulation.

-Alex