Why do Republicans only......

[Kuro Morfos]

This just pisses me off&#33; Republicans are ignorant narrow-minded idiots&#33; <span style='color:red'>THE WORLD IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE&#33; The Republicans are very pro establishment, and are therefore authoritarian. Not all Communists hate freedom, Communists hate economic freedom, but not necessarilly other types of freedom. Republicans see the world in a narrow black and white and are thus incapable of seeing our colorful world. It is possible to hate freedom on some issues, and love it during others. This is very prevalent in the GOP, as they advocate economic anarchy alongside an unconstitutional moralistic police state. The GOP love the establishment on some issues, hate it during others. They of all people should be able to recognize that freedom is not a black and white term. Unfortunately the media spews this idea, when it is clearly untrue. GWB led the biggest expansion in government power since FDR. There is no way that the GOP is pro freedom, pro smaller government. GOP just want smaller government when it comes to helping people, but want bigger government when it comes to controlling our lives. They are brainwashed and believe in a total double standard. I hate Republicans with a passion, they make me want to key off all their rediculous bumperstickers&#33; THEY ARE MORONS&#33; AND A CONTAMINATION TO THE GENE POOL&#33;

By the way, GO TECHNOCRACY&#33;

DOWN WITH CONSERVATISM&#33;

DOWN WITH MORALISM&#33;

DOWN WITH TRADITION&#33;

DOWN WITH ROGUE CAPITALISM&#33;</span>

[Kuro Morfos]

Oh, and Democrats: FUCK YOU TOO YOU ARE A BUNCH OF WORTHLESS COWARDS GO WAVE YOUR WHITE FLAG ALREADY FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME&#33;

http://www.thefrown.com/player.php?/frowne...ecomerepublican (http://www.thefrown.com/player.php?/frowners/becomerepublican)

[Zingu]

Not all Communists hate freedom, Communists hate economic freedom, but not necessarilly other types of freedom.


So, working and making commodities for some person, and receiving nothing in return is economic freedom? :blink:

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 07:54 AM

Not all Communists hate freedom, Communists hate economic freedom, but not necessarilly other types of freedom.


So, working and making commodities for some person, and receiving nothing in return is economic freedom? :blink:
Well, yes, sorta. It means that you can have free enterprise, make what you want to make, and then sell it. At least, that is the concept of economic freedom. Of course, many could argue that in order to have true economic freedom, you have to limit monopolies, add regulations, etc... However, that is for another debate. My point is, many Communists love freedom, they just like a collective economy in an otherwise free society. I was defending you and attacking Republicans. Republicans seem to enjoy the freedom to exploit people, bribe the government, and leave the poor starving. They seem to hate the government when it helps people.

[Comrade-Z]

Well, yes, sorta. It means that you can have free enterprise, make what you want to make, and then sell it. At least, that is the concept of economic freedom. Of course, many could argue that in order to have true economic freedom, you have to limit monopolies, add regulations, etc... However, that is for another debate. My point is, many Communists love freedom, they just like a collective economy in an otherwise free society. I was defending you and attacking Republicans. Republicans seem to enjoy the freedom to exploit people, bribe the government, and leave the poor starving. They seem to hate the government when it helps people.

I am curious, Kuro Morfos, what would you think about a system that had democratic production (all workplaces and businesses were democratically controlled by the workers), but which also still maintained money and a market distribution system?

I can (sort of) understand why you like the market distribution system and why you think that entails freedom, but don&#39;t you think the production aspect of captialism is rather dictatorial (with the owner as authoritarian dictator over how his workplace is operated, and with the workers as the obedient tools/robots controlled by the boss)?

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by Comrade&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 07:00 PM

I am curious, Kuro Morfos, what would you think about a system that had democratic production (all workplaces and businesses were democratically controlled by the workers), but which also still maintained money and a market distribution system?

I can (sort of) understand why you like the market distribution system and why you think that entails freedom, but don&#39;t you think the production aspect of captialism is rather dictatorial (with the owner as authoritarian dictator over how his workplace is operated, and with the workers as the obedient tools/robots controlled by the boss)?
In many ways yes. With monopolies, FCC and other liscenes, we have little economic freedom. In order to protect economic freedom and Democracy, I think we should limit predatory market, abolish necessary liscensings that favor big industry, downsize the FCC, fund more public media, etc...

There is no doubt, that are critical thinking way of life is under siege by large media corporations, our authoritarian government, our biased education system, etc... The majority of Americans are at way with us. Ordinary people are the enemy, they want to force us to be like them. I will never be like them, I couldn&#39;t if I wanted to, but I don&#39;t. I want to be different, I am proud to be on the fringe&#33; I&#39;m sure we all are. Americans are insane right-wing moralistic fanatics. I will not have anything to do with the mainstream of this society, and there is nothing they can do to force me. I&#39;ll leave if they try, if they don&#39;t let me leave, I&#39;ll find a way to escape.

I am tired of being told what to think, I am tired for being persecuted because I am rational. I am tired of being told that collective interests are morally wrong. I am tired of being told that one philosophy is right, and all the rest are wrong. I am tired of being told that it is acceptable to persecute others that are misunderstood, it is wrong and I don&#39;t care if they say otherwise. I am tired of being considered evil. <span style='color:red'>THIS COUNTRY IS FULL OF SHIT&#33;

I hate ordinary people. They are brainwashed, hateful sheep unwilling to listen to the voices of reasons. They think because they are the mainstream, that they are instantly right. But, they are wrong. The greatest acheivments were acheived by the minority. To persecute the minority is to persecute progress. </span>

[theraven]

republica s care most about economc freedoms, beucase if you are economicaly free you can then get the other freedoms.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:53 PM
republica s care most about economc freedoms, beucase if you are economicaly free you can then get the other freedoms.
So if you&#39;re rich, you can have freedom, but if you are poor, you cannot?

[Enragé]

so you want "humane capitalism"?

Look at europe
it failed (believe me, I LIVE HERE)

You cannot make solidarity amongst people work while capitalism, which promotes selfishness, rages on.

Look at it like this
In capitalism the only reward you get for work is money (and little of it)
In your version of capitalism you can get that reward in a different way; by faking illness. And well, why wouldnt they? What more worth is there to work for yourself than the wage you earn? Why then should you work if you can have that wage in another way, in this case by faking illness? And so they did, in my country.
Result; the country in which your version of capitalism is implemented suffers economic setbacks due to being less competitive on the world market.
Result; the people turn to pro-market reforms since that is logically the only way to make the economy better again while retaining capitalism (and since you dont want a revolution this is the only way)
Result; full fledged capitalism OR people getting pissed off that their social security is taken away and revolt (but you dont want communism so what will that revolt accomplish? Controlled capitalism, your version of capitalism...and that makes this moronic circle complete so we can start all over again)

OR
we could just have a revolution and create a better world in which you work for society and society works for you.

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by ThisAnarchistKillsNazis+Jun 11 2006, 08:55 PM--> (ThisAnarchistKillsNazis @ Jun 11 2006, 08:55 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 09:53 PM
republica s care most about economc freedoms, beucase if you are economicaly free you can then get the other freedoms.
So if you&#39;re rich, you can have freedom, but if you are poor, you cannot? [/b]
That pretty much settles the GOP&#39;s pro freedom platform. <_<

[Enragé]

so you want "humane capitalism"?

Look at europe
it failed (believe me, I LIVE HERE)

You cannot make solidarity amongst people work while capitalism, which promotes selfishness, rages on.

Look at it like this
In capitalism the only reward you get for work is money (and little of it)
In your version of capitalism you can get that reward in a different way; by faking illness. And well, why wouldnt they? What more worth is there to work for yourself than the wage you earn? Why then should you work if you can have that wage in another way, in this case by faking illness? And so they did, in my country.
Result; the country in which your version of capitalism is implemented suffers economic setbacks due to being less competitive on the world market.
Result; the people turn to pro-market reforms since that is logically the only way to make the economy better again while retaining capitalism (and since you dont want a revolution this is the only way)
Result; full fledged capitalism OR people getting pissed off that their social security is taken away and revolt (but you dont want communism so what will that revolt accomplish? Controlled capitalism, your version of capitalism...and that makes this moronic circle complete so we can start all over again)

OR
we could just have a revolution and create a better world in which you work for society and society works for you.

edit:
double post :blush:

[emma_goldman]

Overall I don&#39;t think there&#39;s ever been a true "conservative" atleast as it was formulated in the late 70s. Even though supposedly they are for reducing the size of the federal government, they often only do this to a point and that is reducing restrictions on corporations.

Look at Reaganomics. :rolleyes:

[Comrade-Z]

THIS COUNTRY IS FULL OF SHIT&#33;

I heartily agree. :)

You sound like you rather detest religion, eh? And you support capitalism? I&#39;ve recently been musing over this idea for a programme of action centered around attacking various types of pre-capitalist superstition (such as religion, racism, and nationalism). My idea for a slogan was "Advance into the capitalist era&#33; Destroy pre-capitalist superstition." This programme of action would be aimed at creating a rational, atheist, advanced capitalist society. From a previous thread (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50356&hl=ultra-left&st=25) where I was discussing this:


I&#39;m talking about a combination of:
*antifa
*militantly interfering with all public displays of nationalism in schools, at sports games, at presidential events, etc.
*militant confrontation of religious leaders, furious debate with ordinary religious people, assaults on religious institutions

I thought of this programme of action with atheist supporters of capitalism in mind, thinking that they would agree with its aims and be willing to participate.

I am interested in this programme of action because it seems to me that an atheist, materialist, advanced capitalist society is necessary before communist revolution can become a possibility.

What do you think?

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by Comrade&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 11:45 PM

THIS COUNTRY IS FULL OF SHIT&#33;

I heartily agree. :)

You sound like you rather detest religion, eh? And you support capitalism? I&#39;ve recently been musing over this idea for a programme of action centered around attacking various types of pre-capitalist superstition (such as religion, racism, and nationalism). My idea for a slogan was "Advance into the capitalist era&#33; Destroy pre-capitalist superstition." This programme of action would be aimed at creating a rational, atheist, advanced capitalist society. From a previous thread (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50356&hl=ultra-left&st=25) where I was discussing this:


I&#39;m talking about a combination of:
*antifa
*militantly interfering with all public displays of nationalism in schools, at sports games, at presidential events, etc.
*militant confrontation of religious leaders, furious debate with ordinary religious people, assaults on religious institutions

I thought of this programme of action with atheist supporters of capitalism in mind, thinking that they would agree with its aims and be willing to participate.

I am interested in this programme of action because it seems to me that an atheist, materialist, advanced capitalist society is necessary before communist revolution can become a possibility.

What do you think?
I think about that all the time. Sometimes I wonder what a Capitalist society would be like if such pre-Capitalist superstitions did not exist, such as religion, nationalism, etc... It would be a lot friendlier.

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

I think about that all the time. Sometimes I wonder what a Capitalist society would be like if such pre-Capitalist superstitions did not exist, such as religion, nationalism, etc... It would be a lot friendlier.


And it would be even friendlier without the capitalism :)

[Osman Ghazi]

pre-capitalist superstition (such as religion, racism, and nationalism).

Well, i think of Immanuel Wallerstein&#39;s view that racism, nationalism and sexism developed in order to allow capitalism to advance (by allowing for a gradual, as opposed to sudden, widening of priveleges for different social classes). I would say that racism (as opposed to xenophobia) and natinoalism as well are post-capitalist inventions.


And it would be even friendlier without the capitalism

I really don&#39;t think that capitalism or communism is the factor on which the friendliness of peoples hinges. I think that if I had to work 12 hours a day I&#39;d be an asshole whether production was controlled democratically or in authoritarian way. If capitalism can shorten the workday (and it can) to 4 hours a day, 4 days a week, pretty much everyone would be nice, no matter what.

BTW, where I live, in a suburb north of Toronto almost everyone is &#39;polite&#39; if not genuinely nice.

[Comrade-Z]

I would say that racism (as opposed to xenophobia) and natinoalism as well are post-capitalist inventions.

How could that be the case, though? These phenomena have all became less prominent since the beginning of the capitalist epoch.

Of course, capitalism doesn&#39;t just unilaterally attack these phenomena. Some sectors of the ruling class try desperately to foster these phenomena and keep them going because they are useful to the ruling class, in some ways.

But even so, the material conditions of capitalism continues to eat away at them.

I explained it once to a friend in this way:


Capitalism is a rational system of social relations centered around the pursuit of profit. Consequently, capitalism:

Gradually destroys pre-capitalist irrational thought such as racism, nationalism, and religion. Productivity demands that the capitalist hire the best worker, regardless of his/her race. Likewise, productivity demands that people of different races in heavily integrated capitalist societies be able to work with each other. One can especially see examples of this during wartime, when calls for "national unity" are expressed by the ruling class.

The capitalist class in the advanced capitalist countries is so thoroughly international now that nationalist foreign policy increasingly makes no sense. For instance, having the U.S. invade France would entail the U.S. bombing U.S. investments in France&#33; That&#39;s one of several reasons why you won&#39;t see any of the advanced capitalist countries going to war with each other anytime soon. Their ruling classes are too heavily economically integrated. In fact, it is difficult to talk about “national capital” in these countries at all, pretty much. Ever since globalization has really kicked in, all of the really pivotal capital in these countries is international in scope. And the proletarians of the respective countries recognize this. Why should they be full of nationalistic fervor when their corporations have none? Additionally, technological development entails greater contact between nationalities, increasing internationalism.

Technological advancement and productivity&#39;s need for a rational, sophisticated proletariat gradually eats away at religious conviction and fosters secularism and atheism.

Capitalism promotes hedonism, selfishness, rational thought, and materialism.
Hedonism sells. Sex sells. Selfishness sells. Furthermore, the educational apparatus and technological development encourages rationality and a materialist outlook.

These are actually progressive developments. Communism will come about due to the rational self-interest of the proletariat—because the proletariat will see that communism offers more opportunities for self-gratification than capitalism does. Furthermore, a class that lives for itself (hedonism and selfishness) is a class that is capable of acting for itself and ruling for itself.

Capitalism also gives rise to an increasingly skilled and sophisticated proletariat (it must for productivity&#39;s sake).

Through economic development and the creation of superabundance, capitalism provides the material foundations for communism.

[Osman Ghazi]

I guess the dispute is more about when &#39;the capitalist epoch&#39; begins. I usually place it around the beginning of mercantilism around the 1650&#39;s. But you&#39;re right about capitalism destroying superstition. I think it&#39;s because of capitalist production&#39;s ability to bring together such diverse groups of people. But that&#39;s why I&#39;m not a communist, because I know capitalism has to run its course. All this bullshit about revolution is just deluded bullshit. I think Trotsky put it best when he said "Revolution is impossible until it is inevitable." And when it comes, it will come, without anybody&#39;s help, nor as the result of any kind of planning.