PKK (Kurdish Workers Party)

[Xiao Banfa]

I would like to know what members know about Abdullah Ocalan and the PKK?

Are they genuinely Marxist?

[Nachie]

Last week a friend of mine was talking about "Aztlan" and I thought he was talking about "Ocalan".

Anyway Ocalan I am not so sure about, as he renounced armed struggle after being captured. There is also some degree of leader-worship in the group, though this may have been the inevitable result of their focused campaign to stop his execution.

The Workers Party of Kurdistan is a mixed bag, not least because it operates in four or more different countries with "supporters" in a lot of places, so I think it needs to be looked at individually in each area where it is active. I would say that in Iraq is has been exposed to more communist insurrections and had a chance to participate and react to broad revolutionary movements and workers' power within the Kurdish population as a whole, while in Turkey it has seemingly been more of a professional guerrilla army. In all cases it is at least as much "nationalist" as it is "Marxist".

More on the PKK can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKK)

[bcbm]

Extremely prone to hero/leader-worship in the worst Maoist traditions, very authoritarian communist (kills anarchists and the like), definitely more nationalist than communist and has (had?) an extremely incompetent military strategy that led to somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 deaths for basically nothing. Not my cup of tea, but I support the Kurds' right to self-determination in any case.

[Leo]

PKK is a quite interesting group. No, they are not Marxists, at least its leaders are not anymore. Ocalan claims that he exceeded Marx( <_< ). He calls his ideology &#39;Confederalism&#39;. Its leaders are really very nationalistic, and they know that it is nationalism and oppression where they get their support from.

Indeed, there is a great deal of hero-worship, Ocalan clearly intends to make people &#39;build&#39; his statues if he is succesful. I don&#39;t really know if it was like this before he was captured, they have been really trying hard to stop his execution, and Ocalan acted in a way that all PKK members should be ashamed when he was captured.( :angry: )


I would say that in Iraq is has been exposed to more communist insurrections and had a chance to participate and react to broad revolutionary movements and workers&#39; power within the Kurdish population as a whole, while in Turkey it has seemingly been more of a professional guerrilla army.

This is quite true... Yet despite being a professional guerilla army in Turkey, they have extremely strong bonds with the Kurdish masses. They also have a political wing that is trying to seem more moderate and even social-democratic actually (<_<).


Extremely prone to hero/leader-worship in the worst Maoist traditions, very authoritarian communist (kills anarchists and the like), definitely more nationalist than communist and has (had?) an extremely incompetent military strategy that led to somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 deaths for basically nothing. Not my cup of tea, but I support the Kurds&#39; right to self-determination in any case.

PKK doesn&#39;t have any connections with Maoism and Ocalan&#39;s cult is hardly Maoist, altough it is vanguardist. As for killing anarchists, well there aren&#39;t any Anarcihsts I know of in Turkish Kurdistan, but if there were, I would think other people would kill them first, it is a harsh environment, very feudal... As for 30,000 deaths for basically nothing, well that is a ridiculous propaganda by the Turkish government. Most of those 30,000 deaths for caused by the Turkish Military, it is really quite a disgusting army ( :angry: :angry: :angry: ), they&#39;ve been murdering and oppressing Kurds for decades. And that nothing part is also nonsense, like PKK or not (which I don&#39;t really), whatever rights Kurds got, they got it because of the PKK. Now they are &#39;at least&#39; able to speak in their language, listen to kurdish music, publicly say that they are Kurdish etc.

[bcbm]

PKK doesn&#39;t have any connections with Maoism and Ocalan&#39;s cult is hardly Maoist, altough it is vanguardist.

I said it was in the worst Maoist traditions, ie the hero-worshipping "great leader" kind of stuff, their ideology isn&#39;t Maoist, i know.


As for killing anarchists, well there aren&#39;t any Anarcihsts I know of in Turkish Kurdistan, but if there were, I would think other people would kill them first, it is a harsh environment, very feudal...

Anarchists are everywhere. :-P I&#39;m sure they&#39;ve been killed by other Kurdish outfits as well, as the others are even more reactionary.


As for 30,000 deaths for basically nothing, well that is a ridiculous propaganda by the Turkish government. Most of those 30,000 deaths for caused by the Turkish Military, it is really quite a disgusting army, they&#39;ve been murdering and oppressing Kurds for decades.

No disagreement here, and I&#39;m not blaming them on anyone else, although the PKK&#39;s military "strategy" wasn&#39;t exactly aimed at avoiding casualties.


And that nothing part is also nonsense, like PKK or not (which I don&#39;t really), whatever rights Kurds got, they got it because of the PKK.

I don&#39;t know about that. The PKK has been a very important part of the Kurdish struggle, but I don&#39;t think one should attribute all gains to them, and its hard to say what could&#39;ve been won without the PKK (or if the PKK had a more effective strategy).


Now they are &#39;at least&#39; able to speak in their language, listen to kurdish music, publicly say that they are Kurdish etc.

I think most of those 30k died seeking far more than that.

[Nachie]

Hey Leo, I was wondering if you could clarify some stuff for us:

I think Turkey is one of the only places in the world where I have heard about leftists using suicide bombing as a tactic. If I recall it was being done by the TKP-ML, but this might be totally wrong. Of course there are other groups like the PFLP and maybe Shining Path (is this just a rumor???) that have used suicide bombers, but in Turkey do you know what&#39;s up with this?

I haven&#39;t heard of it happening for several years but basically I guess I&#39;m asking are these people just leftwing Islamists who are blowing themselves up in the name of secular organizations, or are they just really desperate cadres who are engaging in armed struggle by any means necessary? I know the TKP-ML lost over 60 members to hunger strikes in prison, so they&#39;re not shy about dying for the cause.

My main question: is the use of suicide bombing by left-wing organizations in Turkey based in religious fundamentalism, or anti-capitalist ideology?

[PRC-UTE]

Interesting question...

The Tamil Tigers have done it as well, and they&#39;re secular.

[Nachie]

Yeah I was actually on the verge of mentioning the Tamils, I&#39;m glad you brought them up.

Right now the BBC has a REALLY INTERESTING ARTICLE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5051652.stm) about their "martyrdom cult".

[emma_goldman]

I would say definitely not. After all they are a terrorist organization. They use socialism and worker&#39;s rights to appeal to the poor & dispossessed about as far as say Hitler used the same.

The PKK has killed thousands of people including women, the elderly, children and infants. They have also murdered school teachers seeing their ideas work best on the uneducated and ignorant. :ph34r: This is interesting for what has been called on this thread a "vanguardist party."

I asked a friend of mine from Turkey about what happens when ya know they see a Kurdish person that they are wary of. He says they ask them first "Are you peaceful? Are you part of the PKK?" If they are not a member they leave them alone (according to him :unsure: )

I highly doubt Kurdish rights in Turkey are due to the PKK. If anything, I would think, it would cause more repression. People hate the PKK and Ocalan. Turkey seems to be a very nationalist state. I think this would most increase vigilante justice not more rights for the Kurds.

[Leo]

I said it was in the worst Maoist traditions, ie the hero-worshipping "great leader" kind of stuff, their ideology isn&#39;t Maoist, i know.

There certainly is all that &#39;great leader&#39;, &#39;savior&#39; etc. stuff which is pretty disgusting, yeah, and it&#39;s much worse than all Turkish groups, including Maoists, but I don&#39;t think it can actually match other Maoist traditions in the rest of the world, it is more defensive.


Anarchists are everywhere. :-P I&#39;m sure they&#39;ve been killed by other Kurdish outfits as well, as the others are even more reactionary.


I think Turkey is not the best place for Anarchists, it is in general harsh, the state would be probably the first group that would kill Anarchists... I didn&#39;t meet many, I think (and hope) they are acting kind of sneaky, maybe a little like Russian Anarchists...


No disagreement here, and I&#39;m not blaming them on anyone else, although the PKK&#39;s military "strategy" wasn&#39;t exactly aimed at avoiding casualties.

Agreed.


I think most of those 30k died seeking far more than that.

Agreed.


I don&#39;t know about that. The PKK has been a very important part of the Kurdish struggle, but I don&#39;t think one should attribute all gains to them, and its hard to say what could&#39;ve been won without the PKK (or if the PKK had a more effective strategy).

PKK is all there is for the Kurds now, unfortunately. I don&#39;t know if more could have been won without them, yet it is possible. It maybe would have if there it wasn&#39;t for the Military Coup in 1980.


Hey Leo, I was wondering if you could clarify some stuff for us:

I think Turkey is one of the only places in the world where I have heard about leftists using suicide bombing as a tactic. If I recall it was being done by the TKP-ML, but this might be totally wrong. Of course there are other groups like the PFLP and maybe Shining Path (is this just a rumor???) that have used suicide bombers, but in Turkey do you know what&#39;s up with this?

I haven&#39;t heard of it happening for several years but basically I guess I&#39;m asking are these people just leftwing Islamists who are blowing themselves up in the name of secular organizations, or are they just really desperate cadres who are engaging in armed struggle by any means necessary? I know the TKP-ML lost over 60 members to hunger strikes in prison, so they&#39;re not shy about dying for the cause.

My main question: is the use of suicide bombing by left-wing organizations in Turkey based in religious fundamentalism, or anti-capitalist ideology?

Hmm, I&#39;ve heard of such stuff, I think they are mostly rumors, I remember a DHKP-C member accidentally blowing herself up with a bomb she was going to use, I&#39;m not sure she was a suicide bomber though. TKP-ML, well I haven&#39;t heard of them for a long time. They are &#39;supposed&#39; to be active, but guess not... Most Turkish leftists are desperate cadres (or desperate politicians) however, I know that much more people than 60 died overall in hunger strikes in prison. In Turkey, suicide bombing in general is not common actually.


I would say definitely not. After all they are a terrorist organization. They use socialism and worker&#39;s rights to appeal to the poor & dispossessed about as far as say Hitler used the same.

In Turkey there is one terrorist organization, and it is the military controlled state. Trust me, I don&#39;t enjoy defending PKK, but they are nothing compared to the state. And they (PKK) use the situation Kurds are in, but again, the only organization that can be compared to Hitler is the Turkish government.


The PKK has killed thousands of people including women, the elderly, children and infants. They have also murdered school teachers seeing their ideas work best on the uneducated and ignorant.

And this is not true either... As violent as they are, most of their targets were military targets, and school teachers, women, children etc. were being murdered by the state, villages were being burned, helicopters were passing through firing at Kurds, killing mostly children. Of course the state has total controll over the press, and naturally they are going to blame the PKK.


I asked a friend of mine from Turkey about what happens when ya know they see a Kurdish person that they are wary of. He says they ask them first "Are you peaceful? Are you part of the PKK?" If they are not a member they leave them alone (according to him)

I wonder what your friends affiliation is, might he be, say, a Greywolf maybe? I would advise you to chose your friends caredully, PKK is a dangerous organization, but anyone who &#39;messes&#39; with them is obviously more dangerous then them.


I highly doubt Kurdish rights in Turkey are due to the PKK. If anything, I would think, it would cause more repression. People hate the PKK and Ocalan. Turkey seems to be a very nationalist state. I think this would most increase vigilante justice not more rights for the Kurds.

As I said, like it or not, they are due to PKK... Turkey is a disgusting state who would not give anything to Kurds if they weren&#39;t under some kind of threath. Of course people hate PKK, not that there is much to love about them, but the state is responsible for that hatered against them. Otherwise people wouldn&#39;t care, it&#39;s not their fight.

Here&#39;s an example to what the Turkish government have been doing to Kurds from memoires of a prisoner in 1980, before PKK.

"There was torture in every hour of the day. They used electricity. Pardon me but they did bad things too, like using batons and sticks with ones anus. There were other kinds of tortures. Like louse, serum, toilet... They would pour olive oil in your head and throw louses, or they would tie you up tightly and put a serum on top of your head, that serum would stay there for days, a drop falling on your head every three seconds, to the same spot&#33;...When they were torturing us, they wanted us to regret (being a Kurd), they made us say "We are not Kurds, we are dogs&#33;"... Doctors were there to torture, torture continued even if you were sick or went crazy... It wasn&#39;t ordinary soldiers who tortured us, it was psychologists, people who knew the soul of men... They changed the torture every week to prevent you from getting used to it. They were putting us to sewers for example, and they would say "This is your bath, you won&#39;t leave before cleaning up." The next week they would make us eat shit. There were holes for watching in the doors... Glasses were all painted in red and white turkish flag... The prison wasn&#39;t heated during the winters, they forbade us opening the windows during the summers..."

This was on a Turkish magazine called Express. I heard stories like this from people who actually experienced them. They are common stories...

One must know what one is talking about, right Emma?

Turkey is a disgustingly nationalist state, yes, the military has full controll over the state, the state has full controll over the press... Even bourgeoise democracy is a huge &#39;joke&#39; in Turkey.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 11 2006, 10:43 PM
I think Turkey is not the best place for Anarchists, it is in general harsh, the state would be probably the first group that would kill Anarchists... I didn&#39;t meet many, I think (and hope) they are acting kind of sneaky, maybe a little like Russian Anarchists...
Just going to quote this bit, nothing to really argue with the rest. There are definitely Turkish anarchists, and from what I&#39;ve read, a decent amount of them. Anarchist speakers attract crowds, lots of solidarity work is being done around the political prisoner Mehmet and there was a big Green Anarchist convergence recently.

[Leo]

Just going to quote this bit, nothing to really argue with the rest. There are definitely Turkish anarchists, and from what I&#39;ve read, a decent amount of them. Anarchist speakers attract crowds, lots of solidarity work is being done around the political prisoner Mehmet and there was a big Green Anarchist convergence recently.

Theoretically speaking, I see a great potential for an Anarchist movement in Turkey. I know some forums, but I have never heard of organizations or a political prisoner, but I&#39;ve been away for a while, it is quite possible though, Turkish prisons host thousands of political captives. In Turkey, the revolution was being held back for hundreds of years, Turkey did not have a real bourgeoise revolution, therefore by constant suppression of historical tensions, the Turkish Government became the most disgusting and oppressive governments in the world and people deep down don&#39;t like it despite all the government propaganda. All those suppression can explode with an Anarchist movement and finally a revolution reaching victory. I certainly hope it does :) Can you show me a resource for that movement by the way?

[bcbm]

Can you show me a resource for that movement by the way?

But of course&#33;

http://www.mehmettarhan.com/index.php

http://www.anarsi.org/otonoma/declaration.php

That&#39;s all I&#39;ve really got. Most of what I know about anarchists in Turkey I&#39;ve picked up from reading magazines and newspapers, so it&#39;d be difficult to cite. :-)

[emma_goldman]

Actually part of the PKK plan IS to use to use force against military & civilian targets and they do just that. They have also kidnapped many Western tourists. See: http://www.ict.org.il/articles/abductions.htm

You&#39;re quote is NOT before the PKK as the PKK was established in 1978.

Consider this:
"Following the collapse of the USSR, the PKK largely abandoned its communist roots, attempting to better accommodate Islamic beliefs. In the mid 1990s, they also began to shift from conventional bombing to suicide bombing, launching fifteen such attacks between 1995 and 1999."

Furthermore, the PKK has targeted enemies of all classes. Interesting for a supposedly Marxist organization. :P

Refer to some of these pictures: http://www.pkkgercegi.net/unutulanfotograflar/default.htm

I have a question as well, if the PKK is Marxist-Leninist why are they for establishing a "independent,democratic Kurdish state?" Are they true Marxists or are they just as racist as the Turkish state?

No doubt the atrocities against the Kurds in Turkey are horrid but I don&#39;t see the PKK as being a valuable organization for Kurdish rights. If anything it makes Kurds look bad by proclaiming such radical militancy. But my views are subject to change if you give me good documented evidence. :)

Oh and btw the name isn&#39;t Emma, it&#39;s Darby. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_goldman

[Operation Red Flag]

First let me state I am completely clueless on this conflict though I do support the Kurd&#39;s right to self-determination. I simply wanted to pointed out a few things in your post Emma (or Darby).


Actually part of the PKK plan IS to use to use force against military & civilian targets and they do just that
They are a terrorist organisation, that&#39;s what terrorists generally do - use force against military and civilian targets to bring concessions from the state


They have also kidnapped many Western tourists. See: http://www.ict.org.il/articles/abductions.htm

That group is a right-wing "counter-terrorist" (in the CIA sense) organisation. I would not trust anything from their website or publications.


Consider this:
Where is this quote from?


In the mid 1990s, they also began to shift from conventional bombing to suicide bombing, launching fifteen such attacks between 1995 and 1999."
And?


I have a question as well, if the PKK is Marxist-Leninist why are they for establishing a "independent,democratic Kurdish state?" Are they true Marxists or are they just as racist as the Turkish state?
It&#39;s been pointed out two times (off the top of my head) that the PKK aren&#39;t Marxists - I believe that&#39;s what the initial debate was about. Hell, they apparently aren&#39;t even Maoists


If anything it makes Kurds look bad by proclaiming such radical militancy
Radical militancy is surely a positive thing, any Anarchist will tell you that


But my views are subject to change if you give me good documented evidence
I hope Leo Uilleann can provide some sources that might explain in depth the origin of the PKK and why a Kurdish state should be created because I believe you are being slightly emotional and not materialist enough about this issue.


Oh and btw the name isn&#39;t Emma, it&#39;s Darby. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_goldman
Good woman :)

ORF

[Leo]

Actually part of the PKK plan IS to use to use force against military & civilian targets and they do just that.

This is not entirely true either, PKK is a huge organization with many other wings, currently they are focusing on their political wing and trying to get into the national assembly in the elections <_<

Also, PKK did not really target civilians, they had sabotages that harmed civilians, but most of their targets were Military forces and more importantly landlords. Naturally, it is always the poor who is sent to Kurdistan in Turkey by the military, and army service is not an option in Turkey :angry: so the fighting between Kurdish guerillas and Turkish soldiers is always a tragedy, but I am in fact quite glad that they assasinated the landlords.


They have also kidnapped many Western tourists. See: http://www.ict.org.il/articles/abductions.htm

That group is a right-wing "counter-terrorist" (in the CIA sense) organisation. I would not trust anything from their website or publications.


The kidnappings actually seems to be true, I didn&#39;t hear much about it but simply because it is believable, after all they were apparently released short time after their capture, those are quite minor events, it seems more like several misunderstandings.


You&#39;re quote is NOT before the PKK as the PKK was established in 1978.

Doesn&#39;t matter, no one knew their name, they had not done anything yet. They gained strength after the coup.


Consider this:
"Following the collapse of the USSR, the PKK largely abandoned its communist roots, attempting to better accommodate Islamic beliefs. In the mid 1990s, they also began to shift from conventional bombing to suicide bombing, launching fifteen such attacks between 1995 and 1999."

This is wrong, PKK members are mostly atheists, there isn&#39;t any islamic tendency going on. I heard that they used suicide bombs but I don&#39;t remember a specific example, they might have used for several times but I don&#39;t think it is common practice though.


Refer to some of these pictures: http://www.pkkgercegi.net/unutulanfotograflar/default.htm

Of course, I know about that site... Most of the children murdered there were in fact victims of the Turkish government, and I think this became a huge scandal in Europe.


I have a question as well, if the PKK is Marxist-Leninist why are they for establishing a "independent,democratic Kurdish state?" Are they true Marxists or are they just as racist as the Turkish state?


I didn&#39;t ever say they were Marxist-Leninist, I said Confederalist or some stupid thing like that. They are not more &#39;racist&#39; than ETA or IRA, it is that &#39;popular&#39; national independence and nationalism of the oppressed nation thing. They are basically seperatists, they don&#39;t really have much to do with capitalism, nor do they understand it beyond empty rhetoric.


No doubt the atrocities against the Kurds in Turkey are horrid but I don&#39;t see the PKK as being a valuable organization for Kurdish rights. If anything it makes Kurds look bad by proclaiming such radical militancy. But my views are subject to change if you give me good documented evidence.

Valuable or not, PKK is the only organization working for Kurdish rights. And that &#39;looking bad&#39; thing is not really important because the Turkish Army is far more disgusting than PKK, but they are looking better, because they controll the media.

If anything actually makes Kurds look bad it is the Turkish press.

Things aren&#39;t always the way they seem to be.

As for &#39;documented&#39; evidence, it is very hard to find a something from a neutral perspective. PKK has its own press, Turkish press is completely subject to the will of the state. What&#39;s more, there isn&#39;t detailed and deep anaysis written by either side that isn&#39;t in Turkish or Kurdish. I&#39;ve been around when most of those events were happening so I have my own analysis.

It seems like you read enough from the side of the Turkish Government in this issue. Maybe you should check out PKK&#39;s site, see what they have to say about things, and then develop your own analysis.


Oh and btw the name isn&#39;t Emma, it&#39;s Darby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_goldman

Of course I know Emma Goldman, she is one my favorite anarchists, I was reffering to you with your nickname.


I hope Leo Uilleann can provide some sources that might explain in depth the origin of the PKK and why a Kurdish state should be created because I believe you are being slightly emotional and not materialist enough about this issue.

Now, I am not trying to make anyone think a Kurdish state should be created. In my opinion, not much will be better if Kurds change their Turkish masters with Kurdish ones, and if they replace statues of Ataturk with statues of Ocalan. I am against the concept of nation-state, period. I want to abolish states and countries, so the liberation, the real liberation Kurds need will come with the World Revolution. Nothing less will suffice.

[Operation Red Flag]

The kidnappings actually seems to be true, I didn&#39;t hear much about it but simply because it is believable, after all they were apparently released short time after their capture, those are quite minor events, it seems more like several misunderstandings.
Ah, alright


Now, I am not trying to make anyone think a Kurdish state should be created.
Well this is true but if the Kurds are a genuine dispossessed nationality then they have a right to self-determination


not much will be better if Kurds change their Turkish masters with Kurdish ones
Agreed, that&#39;s why I would not support the PKK&#39;s individual terrorist methods, a genuine movement of the Turkish and Kurdish working-class would be required to resolve this conflict

I just want to re-iterate my view that a Socialist alternative is what I would support in relation to the Kurds and that I am pretty uneducated on this whole conflict.


the real liberation Kurds need will come with the World Revolution
:D