Mcdonald's

[R_P_A_S]

Some of you might of read my thread about leaving college because I felt all the lectures and classes were biased and directed towards a capitalist and conformist student. which I am not anymore. well i went back to class today and decided to suck it up and just use it to my advantage. To my good fortune the class was watching a video about Mcdonald's an on this video the company's high level executives were saying how Mcdonals helps local economies boom! specially in other countries. not only do they offer jobs and opportunities but they are fair to the local farmers for their product. bla bla bla bla.

The video focused on Mcdonals in other countries outside the U.S..

is there anything to say that contradicts this? or something that was left out?

[BobKKKindle$]

Well, this is not strictly Leftist, but you could point out the effect that aggressive (fast food especially) multinationals have on the traditional culture and cusine of the country in question. In the Numerous LEDCs where McDonalds has located, traditional Street Snacks (in many ways an important part of culture) are in rapid decline. This is bad because these foodtuffs were the result of thousands of years of rich cultural and historical development, and should be conserved as items of Cultural interest.

I would investigate the word 'fair' if I were you. Did the Video elaborate on what exactly 'fair' meant? It might also be cool to examine the working conditions and wages of those who work in the Mcdonalds outlets.

[R_P_A_S]

i dont really remember. i just felt it was all lies. kind of? I just want something to contradict this theory that Mcdonalds is good for countries like Mexico, Peru, etc

[which doctor]

I enjoy going to McDonalds....and writing subversive messages on the bathroom walls.

But, shhh! No on nows.

[overlord]

psychoboy:




Well, this is not strictly Leftist, but you could point out the effect that aggressive (fast food especially) multinationals have on the traditional culture and cusine of the country in question. In the Numerous LEDCs where McDonalds has located, traditional Street Snacks (in many ways an important part of culture) are in rapid decline. This is bad because these foodtuffs were the result of thousands of years of rich cultural and historical development, and should be conserved as items of Cultural interest.


Let people eat what they want. You gonna tell people what to eat now? What if no one wants to eat your crap?



I would investigate the word 'fair' if I were you. Did the Video elaborate on what exactly 'fair' meant? It might also be cool to examine the working conditions and wages of those who work in the Mcdonalds outlets.


No one's forcing them to work there. They can leave if they don't like earning money. What's the problem with mcdonalds anyway. Everyone loves mcdonalds. They are legends.

[Connolly]

Let people eat what they want. You gonna tell people what to eat now? What if no one wants to eat your crap?

Thats the point he made.

Fast food chains are more competitive than other "snack" shops selling more traditional foodstuffs.

Because of this, they have the ability to out gun and eventually monopolize them.

When something is monopolized, or in greater numbers than anything else - what choice do you have?

Sooner or later you will be told what to eat - due to the lack of anything else - by giant fast food chains.

What if no one wants to eat the crap?........even presently theres not much choice in the matter - if mc donalds isnt crap then i dont know what is.


What's the problem with mcdonalds anyway. Everyone loves mcdonalds.

Because Mcdonalds and other shit sellers are the only thing available for such a cost and convenience - its not that people actually like it. They have nothing else in Mcdonalds class to compare it to.

Did you know that all the worlds condoms are made by the one patent holding company?...............even though they market them as diffeent "products".

Just because everyone buys condoms made by this monopolizer - dosnt mean they like it - just have no choice.

[overlord]

redguy


When something is monopolized, or in greater numbers than anything else - what choice do you have?

Sooner or later you will be told what to eat - due to the lack of anything else - by giant fast food chains.

What if no one wants to eat the crap?........even presently theres not much choice in the matter - if mc donalds isnt crap then i dont know what is.


This is true. Good point. Still, the fact people go to fast food outlets over traditional stuff says something don't it?


Because Mcdonalds and other shit sellers are the only thing available for such a cost and convenience - its not that people actually like it. They have nothing else in Mcdonalds class to compare it to.

Yeah, but they buy it don't they? :P If I like something I buy it!


Did you know that all the worlds condoms are made by the one patent holding company?...............even though they market them as diffeent "products".

Did you know all of the world's umbrella's have components made by the same umbrella monopoly? Companies in the same sector always love to buy each other out, even to stupid extents, like airlines buying stakes in other airlines :rolleyes:



Just because everyone buys condoms made by this monopolizer - dosnt mean they like it - just have no choice.

If you need it, you buy it. I mean, do you have to like, fall in love with a condom? :rolleyes:

[BobKKKindle$]

If I like something I buy it!

This is based upon the assertion that we choose to purchase products based upon our conscious Personal economic wants and decisions. However, it is very often the case that wants are imposed upon us in Capitalist Society, through the use of Aggressive adveritsing, and the cultural hegemony exercised by corporations and the media. The most powerful and enduring form of repression is is the implanting of emotional, material, and intellectual needs by the establishement; for to do so binds us to Capitlaism under a system of False needs and False Satisfaction. Most of the prevailing needs in post industrial society to relax and have fun and consume in accordance with advertisements and our fellow humans, to love and hate what others love and hate, belong to this cateogry of imposed needs. Therefore, when we see people choosing Fast Food over traditional dishes, it is not because they consciously dislike traditional dishes, but rather because Large Multinational Corporations are able to change the habits of consumers - One could say because TNCs are Hegemonic and all encompassing


Still, the fact people go to fast food outlets over traditional stuff says something don't it?

Yes, it certainly does. See above. It is clear evidence of the Hegemony of TNCs.

[Connolly]

Still, the fact people go to fast food outlets over traditional stuff says something don't it?

People buying honda civics or nissan micras says something too.

They cant afford a mercedes or bently.

You wont find Mr. Mcdonald or his children eating out of Mcdonalds.


Yeah, but they buy it don't they?

I dont see you picking berries off a tree.

Why - because something better is available.

People wouldnt eat Mcdonalds crap if someting else were affordable and available.


like airlines buying stakes in other airlines

Thats handy for price fixing aint it?


If you need it, you buy it

Thats sort of the opposite to what you said here...............


Let people eat what they want. You gonna tell people what to eat now? What if no one wants to eat your crap?

As if to be an argument against something like the Soviet Union.

If you need a crappy Lada, you buy it.

It dosnt have to be good or anything :lol:

[overlord]

People buying honda civics or nissan micras says something too.

They cant afford a mercedes or bently.

You wont find Mr. Mcdonald or his children eating out of Mcdonalds.


What's so good about driving a shitty Mercedes or Bently. Both cars are for disabled retards.


As if to be an argument against something like the Soviet Union.

If you need a crappy Lada, you buy it.

It dosnt have to be good or anything

Lada is an OK car. Why do socialists always expect the best? You guys are elitist and selective in your taste. Nothing is good enough for you. Is there anything you like about the capitalist system? Any products come up to your standards?

[Connolly]

What's so good about driving a shitty Mercedes or Bently.

They are fast.

And proletarians love speed.

They also have a large back seat for some hanky panky :lol:


Lada is an OK car.

4th best selling car in the world. ;)


Why do socialists always expect the best? You guys are elitist and selective in your taste. Nothing is good enough for you.

We know.


Is there anything you like about the capitalist system? Any products come up to your standards?

A nice rolex would be nice :)

[overlord]

They are fast.

And proletarians love speed.

They also have a large back seat for some hanky panky


They are not that fast. I would never buy either of those. The new Phantom sux and is overblown. Mercedes are getting really cheap and are almost a dime a dozen. Plus, you ever seen a happy face behind the wheel of a luxury car? NEVER I BET!


QUOTE
Why do socialists always expect the best? You guys are elitist and selective in your taste. Nothing is good enough for you.



We know.


Sure you're a socialist or are you just trying to get me to say something bizarre?



A nice rolex would be nice

Sure, but who needs a real one. There are EXACT reproductions which sell for $1400. Even socialists can afford. Experts can't tell the difference unless they disassemble and see the ETA movement.

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

This is based upon the assertion that we choose to purchase products based upon our conscious Personal economic wants and decisions. However, it is very often the case that wants are imposed upon us in Capitalist Society,
What drivel is this? With the exception of the mentally retarded, you can't get people to buy what they don't want.

through the use of Aggressive adveritsing,
"Buy it now...or we'll kick your ass!"

I can't say I've ever seen adverts like that.

and the cultural hegemony exercised by corporations and the media.
What's "cultural hegemony"? How are they excersing it?

Therefore, when we see people choosing Fast Food over traditional dishes, it is not because they consciously dislike traditional dishes, but rather because Large Multinational Corporations are able to change the habits of consumers - One could say because TNCs are Hegemonic and all encompassing
Or maybe it's because fast food is convenient for people who can't be arsed to cook. All encompassing hegemony my arse.

[Connolly]

Experts can't tell the difference unless they disassemble and see the ETA movement.

What is the ETA movement?

I heard a rolex can be seen to be genuine by the way the second hand "ticks".

On a rolex (I have been led to believe), the hand moves at a constant speed around - wthout stopping (or ticking).

Cheaper versions do not have this sort of technology do they?

[BobKKKindle$]

you can't get people to buy what they don't want

Ignorance must be Bliss for you. You are blatantly blind to the realities of the system. If firms cannot influence our perceptions, then why do they advertise?! You have utterly failed to understand the vast influence that Hegemony can have upon our mode of thought. The concept of 'false wants' originated from the Marxist idea of commodity fetishism (CF being the idea that commodities can assume human qualities, which is blatantly clear when you examine modern society) Members of the New Left (particuarly the frankfurt school) analysed the psycological effects of Capitalism

The Products indoctrinate and manipulate; they produce a false consciousness which is immune against falsehood. Thus emerges a system of one dimensional thought


can't say I've ever seen adverts like that

Read a little Deeper. Advertising gives the consumer a deep feeling of insecurity and self doubt, and compels them to buy the product so as to achieve a better sense of self worth and keep in line with their fellow class members. And dont be absurd; when I say aggressive I am obviously not referring to physical force. A betetr quote might be - "Buy this, or you will not love and hate as others love and hate and so will not achieve happiness and self fulfillment. You want this product!"


What's "cultural hegemony"? How are they excersing it

Hegemony is the dominance of one group of a series of groups over the Way we thing. Corporations exercise it through influence over the media, and through advertising.

[overlord]

What is the ETA movement?

I heard a rolex can be seen to be genuine by the way the second hand "ticks".

On a rolex (I have been led to believe), the hand moves at a constant speed around - wthout stopping (or ticking).

Cheaper versions do not have this sort of technology do they?

An electronic quartz movement which is found on all cheap watches is there the ticking second dial comes form. Cheap Rolexes use a battery! :lol: Hence the $2 Rolexes you get in Malaysia use this, and yeah, it ticks! HAH! Next up the scale of forgeries you get mechanical movements which are continuous, the famous Rolex "sweeping hand". The Rolex movement and the ETA are indistinguishable. Since Rolex makes their own movements, replica makers have to use the Swiss ETA which is sold separately and is just as good, and weighs the same, so it feels like a real Rolex. These start around $1500 as they use real jewellery as well.


Ignorance must be Bliss for you. You are blatantly blind to the realities of the system. If firms cannot influence our perceptions, then why do they advertise?! You have utterly failed to understand the vast influence that Hegemony can have upon our mode of thought. The concept of 'false wants' originated from the Marxist idea of commodity fetishism (CF being the idea that commodities can assume human qualities, which is blatantly clear when you examine modern society) Members of the New Left (particuarly the frankfurt school) analysed the psycological effects of Capitalism


Let me answer for Tungsten since he's not around, Or is he?
I am not blind to the realities of the system. I am in touch with them. And I know that intense capitalism has created communism. You should be greatful. As for Commodity fetishism and false wants, let me tell you that I am not like other people who blow hundreds of thousands on Mercedes and other crap only to end up unhappy. I drive a 20 year old car, feel no need to replace it. I don't spend much except on my hobbies. Swedish proverb: "If you buy what you don't need you rob yourself". One thing I have noticed is people concentrates on the negative aspects of their possessions, unless they appreciate that possessions, and the positive aspects of their experiences. In the long run, experience, not possessions is what makes people happy. I do want a palace though. :P

[BobKKKindle$]

let me tell you that I am not like other people

Unless you can prove to me that, for the majority of people, Capitalism does not create false wants and impose them upon the workers through a system of hegemony, I have no desire to hear your personal experiences. You say you are in touch with the system; so surely you cannot deny that Capitlaism imposes wants upon us? So, are you going to be blind to the system, or disagre with 'Tungsten'? As for your swedish proverb; thats exactly the point; Capitlaism makes people as if they need certain commodities, and attempts to turn everything into something that can be bought and sold (commodification)


In the long run, experience, not possessions is what makes people happy.

So a life experience of working on an assembly line all one's life as an occupaiton would not make one happy, right? Yet that is the kind of life that many people have to endure under Capitalism. You have already heard the comparison of Work as a means and Work as an end - Work as a means and Wage slavery as a whole is a fundamentally unsatisfying experience.

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

Ignorance must be Bliss for you. You are blatantly blind to the realities of the system.
Don't you think I've heard all this before?

If firms cannot influence our perceptions, then why do they advertise?!
Their influence amounts to "we're selling this stuff, it's good. Why don't you go and buy it."

You have utterly failed to understand the vast influence that Hegemony can have upon our mode of thought.
It doesn't have any, unless you're mentally retarded.

The Products indoctrinate and manipulate;
No they don't. Now comes the revealing part: What are you going to do about it?

Read a little Deeper. Advertising gives the consumer a deep feeling of insecurity and self doubt,
It may or may not; the consumer has a mind of his own.

Hegemony is the dominance of one group of a series of groups over the Way we thing.
They can't dominate the way you think unless you're retarded.

[BobKKKindle$]

It may or may not; the consumer has a mind of his own

No they don't

It doesn't have any

They can't dominate the way you think unless you're retarded


That is a false Consciousness that is a by-product of the hegemonic system. False consciousness is a Marxist hypothesis that material and institutional processes in capitalist society mislead the proletariat — and perhaps the other classes — over the nature of capitalism. This is essentially ideological control, which the proletariat (Ie You) do not know they are under. The Revolution will be quite an education!

I think it was the former leader of the Japanese Red Brigade that said - "We are being Farmed". She was right.

[overlord]

Unless you can prove to me that, for the majority of people, Capitalism does not create false wants and impose them upon the workers through a system of hegemony, I have no desire to hear your personal experiences. You say you are in touch with the system; so surely you cannot deny that Capitlaism imposes wants upon us? So, are you going to be blind to the system, or disagre with 'Tungsten'? As for your swedish proverb; thats exactly the point; Capitlaism makes people as if they need certain commodities, and attempts to turn everything into something that can be bought and sold (commodification)


Mate, capitalism is about freedom. It isn't actually the system imposing itself upon others. It's called keeping up with the neighbours. It's about jealousy and desire, things you think doesn't exist.


So a life experience of working on an assembly line all one's life as an occupaiton would not make one happy, right? Yet that is the kind of life that many people have to endure under Capitalism. You have already heard the comparison of Work as a means and Work as an end - Work as a means and Wage slavery as a whole is a fundamentally unsatisfying experience.


Hopefully one can actually save up enough money to get off that assembly line. Oh, and communist countries won't have assembly lines? :lol: :rolleyes:

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

Unless you can prove to me that, for the majority of people, Capitlaism does not create false wants and impose them upon the workers through a system of hegemony, I have no desire to hear your personal experiences.
I don't need to disprove any of your conpiracy theories. Proving them is your responsiblility.

You have already heard the comparison of Work as a means and Work as an end
"What are you building?"
"Nothing, I'm just building."
Work as an end Aka. Work for work's sake is a pointless waste of time. Yeah, I'm sure that'll be a really satisfying experience.

[overlord]

Kissy Kittens has gone somewhere to find evidence Socialist countries don't have assembly lines, just watch and see.

[Connolly]

Overlord

The watch genius. :lol:

where do you work - a jewelers or something :D

Thanks for that.


Their influence amounts to "we're selling this stuff, it's good. Why don't you go and buy it."

Why do most schools (here in ireland anyway) still have school uniforms?

Why are Nike so popular amongst young people?

Because they are the best?..........even though most of its products are made in child sweatshops amounting to a low quality, even though they are massivly overpriced in comparison to cheaper alternatives.

Social pressure. FACT.

Many young children these days wouldnt be caught dead wearing a pair of St. Bernards runners.

Advertising influences society. Society influences the individual. And things are bought on a daily bases, not of need, not of want - but to fit in.


It may or may not; the consumer has a mind of his own.

How that consumer uses this "mid of his own" is determend by external reality.

A person having a mind of their own is highly over-rated.

[overlord]

Overlord

The watch genius.

where do you work - a jewelers or something


I'm a genius in everything except maths. This is my weakness, jack of all trades is a master of none.

[BobKKKindle$]

Social pressure. FACT

Thanks for backing me up on that comrade, not all Leftists agree about the importance of Consumerist society and Hegemony. For me, its really imporant. Its always a tough topic to express clearly...have you read any Gramsci or Marcuse out of interest? Great stuff on Consumerism.


Kissy Kittens has gone somewhere to find evidence Socialist countries don't have assembly lines, just watch and see

Of course I acknowledge that for some time after the revolution (until boring work is completely mechanized through intensive scientific research) there will be some boring labour, such as assembly lines job. But unlike Capitalist society, an individual will not spend their entire lives working in a Corporate Factory, performing the same meaningless job day after day, and never gaining the full benefits of the finished product. This extract from the May 1968 events might be of interest to you:

The Economist described the production line at Renault as a 'sight from Hell.' Workers talked of 'les cadences' - the intense rhythm of the line, the pressure, the strain, the sweat

Capitalism. You subject workers to that. :( And You will pay.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:31 PM
"What are you building?"
"Nothing, I'm just building."
Work as an end Aka. Work for work's sake is a pointless waste of time. Yeah, I'm sure that'll be a really satisfying experience.
Your example makes no sense, one cannot build "nothing" and still be building. You may ask what the final goal of their endeavors is, or why they are building in the first place, but this changes the scenario.

Where are some of the hardline capitalists to speak against Mcdonald's and monopolies when you need them?

Should people have the choice to fill themselves with this crap? Sure, just as they should be allowed to fill up on meth or heroine.

Should they be near forced to accept this garbage once all competitors have been forced out of business? No, that isn't acceptable for communists or even free-marketers when you consider the specific example.

[overlord]

Actually, its really funny. The good replica makers take the trouble to incribe microscopic 'Rolex' words between the lugs, so a guy in a jewellery shop who knows this may simply examine this and pronounce it a genuine Rolex only to open the back and see a big fat ETA font.

[overlord]

Where are some of the hardline capitalists to speak against Mcdonald's and monopolies when you need them?


I don't think you'll find more of a right wing ultra-capitalist than me or a libertarian than tungsten.

[Connolly]

have you read any Gramsci or Marcuse out of interest? Great stuff on Consumerism.

I havnt.

I havnt read anything specific about consumerism. Some books I have read briefly touch on the subject, nothing major though.

[overlord]

Of course I acknowledge that for some time after the revolution (until boring work is completely mechanized through intensive scientific research) there will be some boring labour, such as assembly lines job. But unlike Capitalist society, an individual will not spend their entire lives working in a Corporate Factory, performing the same meaningless job day after day, and never gaining the full benefits of the finished product. This extract from the May 1968 events might be of interest to you:

Of course the hated assembly line will be there. Communism won't eliminate it if it wants to stay advanced.



The Economist described the production line at Renault as a 'sight from Hell.' Workers talked of 'les cadences' - the intense rhythm of the line, the pressure, the strain, the sweat

I once read a poem on "Dark Satanic Mills". "And who would beleive Jesusalem was once here?" Indeed, no one except me and a few others actually likes industrial architechture.



Capitalism. You subject workers to that. And You will pay.

They were working like that before I was born. It's human nature to want to earn something for one's labour. And How will I pay?

[Tungsten]

The RedBanner

Why do most schools (here in ireland anyway) still have school uniforms?

Why are Nike so popular amongst young people?

Because they are the best?..........even though most of its products are made in child sweatshops amounting to a low quality, even though they are massivly overpriced in comparison to cheaper alternatives.

Social pressure. FACT.
Social pressure isn't hegemony. It can't force you to do anything.

Many young children these days wouldnt be caught dead wearing a pair of St. Bernards runners.

Advertising influences society. Society influences the individual. And things are bought on a daily bases, not of need, not of want - but to fit in.
Do you think people buy cars to "fit in", or to get around more easily and quickly?

How that consumer uses this "mid of his own" is determend by external reality.
In other words, you don't believe they have minds of their own. I bet you see yourselves as an exception to the rule, though. :rolleyes:
bobkindles

The Economist described the production line at Renault as a 'sight from Hell.'
Are you sure he wasn't talking about the cars?

Workers talked of 'les cadences' - the intense rhythm of the line, the pressure, the strain, the sweat
Excuses excuses. The production line's mechanised now and they're still producing awful-looking cars.

And where are the responses to my previous posts?

[Hegemonicretribution]

Overlord I thought you were a minarchist (is that right), there used to be a few radical "anarcho-capitalists." Almost had some of them agreeing that revolution and not reform was a necessary path for their beliefs to be implemanted.

Most of them realise that the mixed economy mess we have is far from capitalist.

[Connolly]

Social pressure isn't hegemony. It can't force you to do anything.

I you folow the "trail" of thought, you might find that advertising significantly affects the nature of social pressure.

Advertising can be hegemonic. And therefore, social pressure, to a limited extent, can "force" people to do things they might not have necessarily done otherwise.



Do you think people buy cars to "fit in

Yes, some people do buy cars to fit in.



In other words, you don't believe they have minds of their own. I bet you see yourselves as an exception to the rule, though.

No, I believe peoples thoughts and actions are defined/restricted by material circumstances.

I am not an exception. If I were, and if born two thousand years ago, I would be a Marxist.

Something which is clearly obvious :rolleyes:

[BobKKKindle$]

I decided that giving a full response to your absurd vauge analogy about building was not worth my time, because several others had responded to it, it was so utterly vauge and divorced from reality, and most importantly because it fails to show that work is only performed for a distinct material reason, for example, to earn an income. Work (if defined as something that an individual chooses freely) can be something that we do just because it is fulfilling and enjoyable! Many (indeed most) hobbies do not produce distinct material rewards, but we still do them right? Because they are acts of self expression, and pleasurable! Socialists believe there should be no divide between leisure and work, to put it simply. Work should be a form of leisure unto itself - but that can only be the case when we choose work, instead of being forced into it, and we do not simply go to work to produce commodities for a capitlaist and to earn a living income . What opposition do you have to this?


The production line's mechanised now

Socialists hope that all menail and disatisfying labour will eventually be mechanized so that people can do the 'work' that they find interesting. yet those Renault workers were no doubt chucked into the street with no oppurtunities, instead of being able to freely choose to develop as individuals in occupations of their choosing now that they were released from the physical toil of the assembly line.

[overlord]

Overlord I thought you were a minarchist (is that right), there used to be a few radical "anarcho-capitalists."

I sort of am. I admit libertarianism tends to aristocracy. Yet I very much admire aristocracy and its grandure, so I support aristocracy. An aristocracy of plutocrats will hopefully provide themselves with low taxes and conditions in which their businesses and those of others can prosper. A precedent for this is the Venetian Republic and eighteenth/nineteenth century England. I do think everything should be privatised as I see no rule for people to run things without the stimulant of greed over things they own to ensure efficiency.



Almost had some of them agreeing that revolution and not reform was a necessary path for their beliefs to be implemanted.

Sounds like nineteenth century US social reformers who verged on socialism in an effort to guarantee equality of capitalistic land ownership which would in turn guarantee equality of man after the revolution so all men indeed would be created equal.

Heheheh, this is quite an interesting debating club we have here. Don't you guys have other commitments? How's your phone bill Mr RedDialUP?
Hehehehhehe.

[Connolly]

How's your phone bill Mr RedDialUP?

:lol: I dont want to think of it right now. Ill be slaughtered in a month :(

[overlord]

HAHAHAH still here eh man. Its after midnight here. Listen to just 4 letters, ADSL. You won't regret it.

[overlord]

Socialists hope that all menail and disatisfying labour will eventually be mechanized so that people can do the 'work' that they find interesting. yet those Renault workers were no doubt chucked into the street with no oppurtunities, instead of being able to freely choose to develop as individuals in occupations of their choosing now that they were released from the physical toil of the assembly line.

But aern't capitalists attempting to do the same thing? Is revolution really necessary? No one wants more staff than is necessary. Robots can surely perform greater quality menial work than a bunch of grumpy workers who want to kill their boss? In fact, aren't robots doing this already?

[overlord]

I can't take it anymore. I've been coming back to this forum and debating for like seven hours. I'm near collapse. Goodbye.

[BobKKKindle$]

See, Socialists have no need of Sleep...Sleep is for the Weak ;)


But aern't capitalists attempting to do the same thing?

The Effects of advances in technology and Mechanisation are very different under Socialism/Capitalism. We believe Technologicla advances should be liberating for workers! Under Capitalism, an advance in technology will allow the Capitalist to substitute labour costs for the mere cost of Upholding the Machinery, which will allow him to lay off workers and therefore achieve a higher rate of productivity and competitivness. THese workers would then be cast into the reserve labour pool and all the povery of life on the dole, and all the stress of trying to find a new Capitalist to sell his labour to. Under Socialism, we would still encourage the replacement of Labour with technology. But the dissappearence of the wage labour system means that the worker would not become 'unemployed' . Instead, once released from the back-breaking hardship of menail labour, and would be able to choose the type of l'abour' he wants to perform without fear! Liberation through technology! There is in fact an entire school of leftism dedicated to this concept : techno-marxism.

It really links back to what diffrentiates Capitalism and Socialism. We are about Humans and Human needs. You are about Profits. Period

Now I really have to go to bed... :blink: Oh thank you Lenin for giving me the strength to march onwards.... :)

[JimmyC]

you could point out the effect that aggressive (fast food especially) multinationals have on the traditional culture and cusine of the country in question

Is this a bad thing?

Living in the U.S. am I to fear a Greek restaurant because of the effect it will have on my "native and cultural food"?

Does anyone believe that people will stop eating their daily fare because a Micky Ds is down the road?

Should non-locals not live in an area because of the effect it has on others?

[Tungsten]

Hegemonicretribution

Your example makes no sense, one cannot build "nothing" and still be building. You may ask what the final goal of their endeavors is, or why they are building in the first place, but this changes the scenario.
I know it makes no sense: "Work as an end" makes no sense. You're right putting a goal at the end of it changes the scenario- it changes it to "work as a means to an end".

Where are some of the hardline capitalists to speak against Mcdonald's and monopolies when you need them?
McDonalds is a monopoly? You are joking aren't you? Burger king? Wimpy? KFC? Pizzahut?
bobkindles

I decided that giving a full response to your absurd vauge analogy about building was not worth my time, because several others had responded to it, it was so utterly vauge and divorced from reality, and most importantly because it fails to show that work is only performed for a distinct material reason, for example, to earn an income.
Be careful, Bob. It sounds like you're advocating "work as a means to an end" aka wage slavery.

Many (indeed most) hobbies do not produce distinct material rewards, but we still do them right? Because they are acts of self expression, and pleasurable!
So you do hobbies (work) for the purpose of pleasure (an end).

Socialists believe there should be no divide between leisure and work, to put it simply. Work should be a form of leisure unto itself - but that can only be the case when we choose work, instead of being forced into it,
They're not being forced into it. I'm sure I've covered this before.

[BobKKKindle$]

So you do hobbies (work) for the purpose of pleasure (an end)

Perhaps I was not quite clear in my terminology here. A "Material end' might be a better description. Sorry about that, my mistake.

However, 'ends and means' is an issue that stretches far beyond the type of labour that we perform under Capitalism. Capitalims is a system in which people use others for their own material ends. That is indisputable, you cant refute it - by hiring somebody you are using them for an end. Humans are turned from, well humans, into objects that have an exchange value and act as commodities to be used in the production process; essentially, walking stores of labour. This dehumanization is further enhanced through commodiety fetishism, whereby distorted social relationships cause us to invest human qualities into commodities. All this is a fundamentla result of the private ownership of the means of production.


They're not being forced into it. I'm sure I've covered this before

Wage Slavery exists. Deal with it. Despite what you think, it is not economically possible for everyone to be a small-buisness owner in your libertarian Capitalist paradise. Nor can workers freely 'choose' their jobs. Why? because it is impossible to survive under Capitalism without a job! Especially under the Anarcho-Capitalist system that you envisage where there is no measly welfare support system.


"work as a means to an end" aka wage slavery

Don't be silly. Use Marixst Terminology correctly.

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 04:26 AM
Some of you might of read my thread about leaving college because I felt all the lectures and classes were biased and directed towards a capitalist and conformist student. which I am not anymore. well i went back to class today and decided to suck it up and just use it to my advantage. To my good fortune the class was watching a video about Mcdonald's an on this video the company's high level executives were saying how Mcdonals helps local economies boom! specially in other countries. not only do they offer jobs and opportunities but they are fair to the local farmers for their product. bla bla bla bla.

The video focused on Mcdonals in other countries outside the U.S..

is there anything to say that contradicts this? or something that was left out?
Thats biased, they shouldn't be doing that in college! College classes should present both points of view! Thats bullshit!

[BobKKKindle$]

Thats biased, they shouldn't be doing that in college! College classes should present both points of view! Thats bullshit!

"The means of communication and the irresistable output of the entertainement industry carry with them certian preconditioned intellectual and emotional habits, attitudes and habits that bind the consumers to the producers and to the entire social system. This results in a false consciousness and a pattern of one dimensional thought"

Thats How Capitalism works I am afraid - through controlling the way we think! Postmodernists/Post-marxists point out that the society in which we live is 'hyperreal' - we very rarely come into contact with reality, but instead gain our experiences and views of the world through spectacle and the unreal. This is a result of the rapid growth and commodification of entertainement and media

What the sociologist Baurdillard said was "Televisual communication and its signs have come to dominate global reality so that people have great difficulty in deciding what is real. Television is like looking at a goldfish bowl and thinking that is what the sea is like - Hyperreality"

Freaky Sociology :o

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

Despite what you think, it is not economically possible for everyone to be a small-buisness owner in your libertarian Capitalist paradise.
That doesn't matter to whether you're free or not.

Nor can workers freely 'choose' their jobs. Why? because it is impossible to survive under Capitalism without a job!
You mean we won't need to work under communism? Great.

However, 'ends and means' is an issue that stretches far beyond the type of labour that we perform under Capitalism. Capitalims is a system in which people use others for their own material ends. That is indisputable, you cant refute it - by hiring somebody you are using them for an end. Humans are turned from, well humans, into objects that have an exchange value and act as commodities to be used in the production process; essentially, walking stores of labour. This dehumanization is further enhanced through commodiety fetishism, whereby distorted social relationships cause us to invest human qualities into commodities. All this is a fundamentla result of the private ownership of the means of production.
So after the revolution, you're going to produce all your own food, make all your own clothes, build your own house, make your own car and drill your own oil for it to run on? Or will you rely on other workers to provide these? Oh no...then I guess you'll be "using people as an end" and turning "humans into objects that have an exchange value and act as commodities to be used in the production process" too.

How is this therefore a "fundamental result of the private ownership of the means of production"? It isn't.

"The means of communication and the irresistable output of the entertainement industry carry with them certian preconditioned intellectual and emotional habits, attitudes and habits that bind the consumers to the producers and to the entire social system. This results in a false consciousness and a pattern of one dimensional thought"
There's a recurring theme in every piece of Marxist dreck you post: No one has any power over their actions or beliefs. The entertainment industry is "irresistable". People have "preconditioned" intellectual/emotional habits (I'll admit, this is possible but it's always self inflicted- take a look in the mirror). "False consciousness". Why are you not "preconditioned" to all of this aleged brainwashing, or are you "special".

Thats How Capitalism works I am afraid - through controlling the way we think!
Through mind-control waves, no doubt.

Postmodernists/Post-marxists point out that the society in which we live is 'hyperreal'- we very rarely come into contact with reality,
From what I understand, neither do the postmodernists.

[BobKKKindle$]

Oh no...then I guess you'll be "using people as an end"

Thats an interesting point actually. However, the difference will be that Commodities that are produced will be produced for their Use Value, not because of their exchange value, as under Capitalist society. And as commodities are stores of labour; if commodities are not produced for exchange, neither will the labour inputs, so to speak. This is an integral part of commodity fetishism, which is the distortion of Social relationships through Capitalist production. In addition, the fact that the Workers themselves will control the means of production means that they will not become alienated from the products of their labour; the commodties; because they recieve the full benefits and will own the commodities.


Why are you not "preconditioned" to all of this aleged brainwashing, or are you "special".

This is what Leninism places great emphasis on - Endowing the proletariat with a concsciousness of their own class, alienation, and, in the Modern age, their 'preconditioning'. I would say we socialists are not 'special' persay, but rather we are conscious of the way in which society works. We have a revolutionary consciousness! We are revolutionaries! I am sure there were some people who said in 1917 that the workers were not exploited through surplus value, etc, and lenin was pretending he alone was 'special'.


You mean we won't need to work under communism? Great

We Will work, but we will not have jobs.

"In a Communist Society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of Actvity, society regulates the general production and this makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another thing tommorow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner; just as I have in mind, without ever becoming herdsman, hunter, or critic."

Capital (Karl Marx, aka 'Big Daddy')

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

Thats an interesting point actually. However, the difference will be that Commodities that are produced will be produced for their Use Value, not because of their exchange value, as under Capitalist society.
Hogwash. Values are subjective- their use value is their exchange value, as far as the consumer is concerned.

And as commodities are stores of labour; if commodities are not produced for exchange, neither will the labour inputs, so to speak.
What's the point in producing a commodity, surplus to personal use, that isn't used for exchange?

This is an integral part of commodity fetishism, which is the distortion of Social relationships through Capitalist production. In addition, the fact that the Workers themselves will control the means of production means that they will not become alienated from the products of their labour; the commodties; because they recieve the full benefits and will own the commodities.
Put away the book you're copying this out of and use your brain. Who on the prodiction line has ever felt "alienated from their labour" and who, other than a tiny minority, has honestly felt the desire to "own the commodities" they produce? I'm sure workers in a toilet seat manufacturing plant will be over the moon to hear they're now own their commodities. What a load of crap.

This is what Leninism places great emphasis on - Endowing the proletariat with a concsciousness of their own class, alienation, and, in the Modern age, their 'preconditioning'. I would say we socialists are not 'special' persay, but rather we are conscious of the way in which society works. We have a revolutionary consciousness! We are revolutionaries! I am sure there were some people who said in 1917 that the workers were not exploited through surplus value, etc, and lenin was pretending he alone was 'special'.
That doesn't explain how you managed to slip through the "brainwashing" net.

"In a Communist Society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of Actvity, society regulates the general production and this makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another thing tommorow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner; just as I have in mind, without ever becoming herdsman, hunter, or critic."
Take a closer look at the occupations listed there. They're anachronisms, completely divorced from the laws of supply and demand- how does being a fisherman, hunter, critic or a herdsman involve the use of "means of production"? Do you want a more up to date example to see how unworkable this is?
"I want to be a politician, brain surgeon, astronaut, computer programmer, airline pilot and research scientist without being any of them." Rubbish.

[BobKKKindle$]

What's the point in producing a commodity, surplus to personal use, that isn't used for exchange

'Use' Value does not just involve Personal use. Why not produce commodities for people to use the item in question, instead of to generate a profit.? That would be puting use value over Exchange Value. Under Capitalism, a shirt factory produces shirts because it is profitable. Under Socialism, the factory would produce shirts to ensure everyone was fully clothed. Yes, even those proletarians who cannot 'afford' it. Again: We Want to put Human needs over Profits, that is what socialism is all about.


That doesn't explain how you managed to slip through the "brainwashing" net

I was lucky enough to have the oppurtunity to look beyond the obvious. What can I say? Some of us naturally look at our surroundings objectively. You'd have to ask everyone on this site individually. For me, it started with a dislike of the educatoonal system/


They're anachronisms

They were pretty much anachronisms in Marx's time as well. They demonstrate a principle and an idea, not a real life situation. The example you gave is absurd, there are of course some types of labour that people would concentrate especially on. Not to mention the fact that there would be no politicians after the revolution. A real life example? That depends on the individual. I would probably do a little agricultural labour in the morning every day (presuming it had not been completely mechanised, in which case I would not have to) because Agrichemistry has always fascinated me, and I admire the 'camraderie' that sometimes comes with manual labour. Around Lunchtime, I would concentrate on writing Novels - maybe an account of the revolution? Then later on, I would like to do some teaching - History and economics. Debating in the evening might be fun.Now I want the revolution to happen more than ever! :)


Put away the book you're copying this out of and use your brain. Who on the prodiction line has ever felt "alienated from their labour"

Firstly, the bits where I am quoting Marxist literature are in italics, in case you did not realise that. Not everyone has their face glued to Milton Friedman or the equivalent as the Capitalists are. Obviously assembly line workers are not aware of the marxist analysis of their situation. They do not have a class consciousness so to speak. Thats our job - to awaken the masses. When consciousness is awoken...the result is incredible! In May 1968, a third of the workforce occupied or abandoned their places of work! Such work would have to be bloody alienating and shit for that to happen. But I am sure that all assembly line workers feel the constant stress, repetition, and undulating exhaustion of the line without being socialists. The more intellectually insightful might express disatisfaciton about not recieving the full benefits of their work. Or is the assembly line suddenly fun and relaxing Tungsten?

http://mv.lycaeum.org/M2/ventura.html You might find this interesting

[overlord]

In May 1968, a third of the workforce occupied or abandoned their places of work! Such work would have to be bloody alienating and shit for that to happen. But I am sure that all assembly line workers feel the constant stress, repetition, and undulating exhaustion of the line without being socialists.

So You hate hard work. Hell, it seems you hate work full stop. Why don't you go to the vet and have yourself put down so you don't have to work anymore? :lol:

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

'Use' Value does not just involve Personal use. Why not produce commodities for people to use the item in question, instead of to generate a profit.?
Because there's no point. Forcing me to do this would be exploitation.

That would be puting use value over Exchange Value. Under Capitalism, a shirt factory produces shirts because it is profitable. Under Socialism, the factory would produce shirts to ensure everyone was fully clothed. Yes, even those proletarians who cannot 'afford' it.
So the shirt manufacurers are going to be essentially working for nothing? How are you going to cope with scarcity (one of the reasons we have a price system in the first place)?

Again: We Want to put Human needs over Profits, that is what socialism is all about.
I don't think you appreciate the implications of doing that.

You'd have to ask everyone on this site individually. For me, it started with a dislike of the educatoonal system/
You're going after the wrong target.

They were pretty much anachronisms in Marx's time as well. They demonstrate a principle and an idea, not a real life situation. The example you gave is absurd, there are of course some types of labour that people would concentrate especially on. A real life example? That depends on the individual.
Just as I thought- no account whatsoever for supply and demand.

I would probably do a little agricultural labour in the morning every day (presuming it had not been completely mechanised, in which case I would not have to) because Agrichemistry has always fascinated me,
I can see your society being a society of "soft option" workers, just as ours is now-which we're beginning to suffer for.

and I admire the 'camraderie' that sometimes comes with manual labour.
Only a non-worker would have said something like that.

Firstly, the bits where I am quoting Marxist literature are in italics, in case you did not realise that.
That's what I was referring to.

Not everyone has their face glued to Milton Friedman or the equivalent as the Capitalists are.
I'm not quoting anything out of books.

Obviously assembly line workers are not aware of the marxist analysis of their situation. They do not have a class consciousness so to speak.
Ridiculous. Of course they're class conscious. Ask any worker what class he's in and he'll tell you.

Thats our job - to awaken the masses. When consciousness is awoken...the result is incredible!
The consiousness has been awake for some time. Nothing's happened.

In May 1968, a third of the workforce occupied or abandoned their places of work! Such work would have to be bloody alienating and shit for that to happen.
Not necessarily. Twenty five years ago In my country, people would strike for the stupidest of reasons.

But I am sure that all assembly line workers feel the constant stress, repetition, and undulating exhaustion of the line without being socialists. The more intellectually insightful might express disatisfaciton about not recieving the full benefits of their work.
I know you're just a student, but there's no excuse for this level of cluelessness.

[R_P_A_S]

wow. got off topic there a bit. I would like to know how Mcdonals hurts people. as opposed of helping them,

[overlord]

wow. got off topic there a bit. I would like to know how Mcdonals hurts people. as opposed of helping them,

:o How? :huh: Don't they help people if they have so may customers? And why do youse place so much attention on Macdonalds as the symbol of capitalism? Have you heard of Burger King, Pizza Hut, Dominos Pizza, KFC? They exist too.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 06:52 AM

wow. got off topic there a bit. I would like to know how Mcdonals hurts people. as opposed of helping them,

:o How? :huh: Don't they help people if they have so may customers? And why do youse place so much attention on Macdonalds as the symbol of capitalism? Have you heard of Burger King, Pizza Hut, Dominos Pizza, KFC? They exist too.
because if you read my first post I mentioned that the video we watched in class was about Mcdonald's