Which mainstream religious sect do you hate most?

[Cheung Mo]

Since this is a topic that bashes backwards religious organisations rather than a topic debating the merits of religion, I feel it belong here...

As for what I hate most, I'd definitely say the Southern Baptist Convention. Without even going into its endorsement of the same level of homophobia, misogyny, and theocracy that currently exists in Islamist hellholes like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Iran, it should be evident to everyone that that the SBC was created to be an evil hate cult that exists for the sole purpose of propagating fascism and other forms of racialism. The SBC was founded in the 1830s by dissident White southerners who were angry about the fact that the progressive-minded northerners that dominated the Baptist movement in the U.S. at the time refused to fund pro-slavery missionaries or congregations that promoted slavery or that were led by a slave-owning minister. Any Southern Baptist who learns this truth and refuses to recant their faith is no longer deserving of the rights and the dignity that are generally accorded to human beings: For they are not humans, they are fascist barbarians who exist solely to foster hate, bigotry, and theocracy!

[Ander]

I betcha can't choose just one!

I know I can't.:(

[Hegemonicretribution]

I would have to say the mainstream Roman Catholic Church, not because they are as extreme as other sects (I personally really hate the "god hates fags" movement) but because of their influence and potential for damage.

I have moved this to religion for now as it isn't really philosophy, but if it it turns out to be more about discrimination it can always be moved again..

[BobKKKindle$]

Islamist hellholes like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Iran

I don't think many people will appreciate that comment. Islam is an indispensible weapon in the struggle against American global hegemony, I firmly believe that we a socialists should support these movements so as to weaken the Imperialist ambitions of the Unied States. They may be somewhat oppressive, but Islam serves as a major impediment to the neo-colonialist ideals of the US, and therefore - until the collapse of the US - are good friends. The Ideas of Islam actually have strong correllations with moderate Socialism.

But which mainstream sect do i dislike most? Well, these guys are not exactly mainstream in the rest of the world (I live in Hong Kong) but the Falun Gong. There was a big debate here a few years ago surrounding the PRC's attempts to close them down and disband the religion. At first, I supported FG, on the premise that I believe in religous tolerance, but when I investigated their beliefs, I gave my full support to the PRC government. Here's why: For one, the consider Homosexuals not worthy of classification as Human beings! :o makes Buchmann look like a nice guy. They are also intensely Hostile to 'non-traditional' forms of medicine, even when the Cultist's life is at stake. Funnily enough, Pol Pot Shared that Second 'belief'! :lol:

In the interests of the people of China, I firmly believe this, and eventually all religions, should be severely discouraged. Yes, even Mainstream Christianity.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 02:53 AM

Islamist hellholes like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Iran

I don't think many people will appreciate that comment. Islam is an indispensible weapon in the struggle against American global hegemony, I firmly believe that we a socialists should support these movements so as to weaken the Imperialist ambitions of the Unied States. They may be somewhat oppressive, but Islam serves as a major impediment to the neo-colonialist ideals of the US, and therefore - until the collapse of the US - are good friends. The Ideas of Islam actually have strong correllations with moderate Socialism.

Atleast someone here appreciates us.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

My Shit List consists of the following:

1. Christianity - Crusades, the Inquisition, child raping priests and the slime who protect them, Creationism/ID, and the genocide of the Native Americans and other aboriginal people, among many, many other crimes against humanity.

2. Islam - Let's treat half of the world's population like dirt! While Islam is just as reactionary as Christianity, in terms of actual damage done it comes second place.

3. Hinduism - Dear oh dear. Hinduism has really made the "polytheistic religions are more tolerant" argument look stupid as fuck. Widow burnings, human sacrifice, and a generally primitive worldview not conducive to a free and fair society. Oh yes, and I almost forgot the extremely racist and classist Caste System.

4. Buddhism - Of all the world's religions, this is the one I find most infuriating. Buddhists, in the West at least, tend to be hippies, and not in the good old-fashioned long messy hair and flower power vein either, but the sickly, nauseating modern sort who are totally middle class, vapid and fucking pretentious. The followers of Buddhism totally fall for the completely obscurantist bullfuckery that pretends to enlighten but in fact clouds the mind to a completely opaque fog with new-age gobbledegook. The Buddhists mastered the art of post-modern writing centuries before postmodern fuckwits in the West had second thoughts about the Enlightenment and it's strongly anti-solipsist tendencies. The above fact is evidenced by the fact that some followers of Buddhism, desperate to reconcile Eastern mystical nonsense with cold, unflinching reality, claim that some Buddhist texts predict the existance of the atom and quantum theory. Utter, utter, utter BULLSHIT! Aaargh!

5. Everything else - This includes that ultimate foe of rationality and logic, Postmodernist Philosophy and the inevitable solipsism, sophistry and subjectivity that follows. Yuck.

[backwardsbulldozer]

The actual basis of Judaism (the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament) is probably the worst of any religion, in terms of clear, violent racism, the belief that whole races of people must be wiped out, all other religions are not only inferior but must be destroyed, and no matter what you do, you still won't be good enough for your God, and odds are he'll end up killing you. Christianity has these texts as part of their Bible, but the New Testament has much less focus on that. Islam at least from the Quran, is extremely dogmatic, with the same message being repeated over and over again (believers shall have great rewards after death, disbelievers will have great shame and suffering) in different words. However, the rigidity is mainly focused on life after death, so if the religion is being followed faithfully it isn't that big of a problem.
In terms of practice, Judaism is one of the more tolerant and non-violent religions, despite it's past. Jews usually aren't killing anyone for their religion, and it's turned into a religion that actually has a lot of good ideas in it. I have no problem with what it is no. Christianity and Islam have done more harm than any other religions, but it's more because Christians and Muslims have had more power than other people to fuck up people's lives. Hinduism definitely has some customs to be ashamed of, but it's a huge religion. Other than that, most other religions don't have that much to answer for, and I don't really hate any full religions.

[Publius]

I don't think many people will appreciate that comment. Islam is an indispensible weapon in the struggle against American global hegemony,

'Indispensible' is right.



I firmly believe that we a socialists should support these movements so as to weaken the Imperialist ambitions of the Unied States.

Yeah, nothing says 'socialist movement' as 'stoning gays to death', right?


They may be somewhat oppressive,

"May be somewhat"?

What the fuck is wrong with you?


but Islam serves as a major impediment to the neo-colonialist ideals of the US, and therefore - until the collapse of the US - are good friends.

Are they now?

YOu do realize that Islamists would happily kill you for your socialist beliefs?


The Ideas of Islam actually have strong correllations with moderate Socialism.

:lol:

Oh, you're serious...


Here's why: For one, the consider Homosexuals not worthy of classification as Human beings!

But people who believe that and hate AMerica are 'OK'?


What does communism do to you people to make you think that fundamentalist Islam is anything other than the most disgusting ideology on the planet?

[Publius]

Atleast someone here appreciates us.

Your religion sickens me.

[More Fire for the People]

Ahh, shit. Wrong topic. Which mainstream group do I hate the most? the UPCI.
http://www.upci.org/ — women have to wear dresses, not cut their hair, and not wear make up. Men’s restrictions? No shorts.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 07:39 AM
5. Everything else - This includes that ultimate foe of rationality and logic, Postmodernist Philosophy and the inevitable solipsism, sophistry and subjectivity that follows. Yuck.
Postmodernism is hardly a religion. Communism is more of a religion than postmodernism is. Perhaps you were not trying to suggest that, but I interpreted it in such a way.

[EwokUtopia]

To be fair, most mainstream religions have very non-mainstream branches which I deeply respect. Islam, for instance has branching from it Sufism, which I respect quite staunchly. Judaism has Kaballah which would be much better if it wasnt so popular. Even Christianity has some cool sects in it, for instance there are sects in Ethiopia who use Cannibus as the eucharist. However, Mainstream religion usually means organized theological bullshit, and as far as that goes, Roman Catholicism is probably the most organized and theological religion out there. So much that if you want to save your soul, you have to tell all of your misdeeds to an agent of theirs in a little wooden box. But as bad as all of catholicism's grievances are, they are not as bad as Evangelical christianity as is rampant in Modern America. This is probably the scariest, as these are the people who support imperialism and capitalism for religious reasons. These are the Christian Zionists who support Israeli Aparthied because it coincides with biblical prophesy. There are many corruptions of Judaism that do the same thing. On the other side, Wahabism is a rape of Islam, "Islamic" oppression of women and Gays is a new phoenominon, it was far safer to be a woman, homosexual, or jew in the Islamic world than it was to be that anywhere else for centuries, until accursed Imperialism bred poverty and contempt in the Islamic world. I have a deep respect for Hinduism, though I hate and fear the caste system. Buddhism seems to me to be the most innocent world religion, as it is based on the concepts of inner harmony and self understanding not based completely on the words of others, but on ones own self-realization. Any belief system can be good and any belief system can be corrupted. When a religious belief gains political power, there is almost allways trouble. It is the same for atheism. Persecuting people because they believe in a god/gods is just as bad as persecuting people for not believing god/s. When it comes to matters of religion, the best thing to be done is to not listen to what others have to say so much as you listen to yourself. I am neither religious, nor am I an atheist, but rather I have my own beliefs about the nature of existance and mankind (and by extension, my) role in the universe. I take influences from certain other spiritual beliefs, none of which could be labelled as mainstream religion, and I am happy with that.

Scientology is the creepiest religion however, it is a trademarked corporation.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I agree with NoXion.

Christianity.
Islam are the two worstest.

I think Judaism is also bad because they force young babies to be circumcised. I think thats really sickening!

Also Daism or Deism. Thats a load of shit, however its spelt.

[Publius]

Also Daism or Deism. Thats a load of shit, however its spelt.

Err, I presume you mean Taoism?

Deism is actually quite good, as far as religions go.

[rouchambeau]

The theistic ones.

[Raisa]

Hinduism!

I was born poor for a reason?!
Fuck YOU!

[Raisa]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 10 2006, 05:32 AM--> (Johnny Anarcho @ Jun 10 2006, 05:32 AM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 02:53 AM

Islamist hellholes like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Iran

I don't think many people will appreciate that comment. Islam is an indispensible weapon in the struggle against American global hegemony, I firmly believe that we a socialists should support these movements so as to weaken the Imperialist ambitions of the Unied States. They may be somewhat oppressive, but Islam serves as a major impediment to the neo-colonialist ideals of the US, and therefore - until the collapse of the US - are good friends. The Ideas of Islam actually have strong correllations with moderate Socialism.

Atleast someone here appreciates us. [/b]
Hahahahaha :lol:

Thats what it looks like these days. What a capitalistc thing to say. " Islam can be used as......" It doesnt matter what you complete that with. It sounds funny

[redstar2000]

They're all totally despicable! :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[LSD]

Islam is an indispensible weapon in the struggle against American global hegemony

Tell that to the people of Saudi Arabia.

Islam, like all relgions, is a tool; one which can be wielded by anyone in a position of hierarchical dominance. Occasionaly, it can be used by local bourgeois and/or peasant forces in opposing imperialism; but just as often it is used by imperialist stooges to bolster their oppressive regimes.

Remember, the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan were trained by the United States; the Islamic governments in Saudi Arabia and Jordan are "key allies" of the United States.

Average people in the middle east are angry with the west because of what the west has done to them. "Islam" is just a convienient means of expressing that anger; if it was not available, they'd chose another ...maybe even a progressive one.

As leftists we should not "support" any religious movement; no matter how oppressed its adherents happen to be. Rather we should encouraged all workers everywhere to join a secular and practical international movement against imperialism and capitalism.

"Faith in Allah" has never resulted in a proletarian victory; it's sure resulted in a lot of death and suffering, however.


They may be somewhat oppressive

:blink:

"Somewhat oppressive"? Islamic law "may be somewhat oppressive"??

Holy homophobia, what the fuck are you smoking???

Islam today is probably the most destructive and oppressive ideology in the world. Sure, capitalism has practically killed and exploited far more; but the victims of capitalism are "collateral damage".

The victims of Islam are intentional and directed.

The boss who underpays his workers doesn't exploit them because he's sadistic or "evil"; he does it because he wants profit. That doesn't excuse him of his crimes, nor does it mean that he should not be taken round the factory and beaten come revolution day.

But it does make him quite morally different from the cleric who orders the death of a woman for "adultery". This cleric, you see, has zero to gain from her death. His sole interest is in "punishing" her for "daring" to be female.

Accordingly, his "evil" is exponentially worse than the self-interested boss ...and so should his punishment be.

Despite the hysterical insistance of various cappies on this board, I have absolutely no desire to see every capitalist killed. Some of them will undoubtably have to be disposed of and revolution is messy business by nature; but in the vast majority of cases, owners, managers, supervisors, etc... can get off with a warning.

Religious "leaders", however, especially those who have enforced "religious law", deserve nothing but death.

Anyone who forces human beings to cover themselves in shame or to humiliate themselves on the honour of religious "tradition" has conceded their right to live in civilized society.

And that you could support "Islam" as in any way progressive is frankly despicable.

Get your fucking head straight. :angry:


The Ideas of Islam actually have strong correllations with moderate Socialism.

The "ideas" of Islam have a "strong correlation" with 12th century butchery. They have nothing to do with socialism. :angry:

[Cheung Mo]

What I forgot to say in my tirade against Southern Baptists: I am even more disgusted by the fact that a majority of SBC congregations in my home province -- Ontario -- are Korean. As a White male, I feel uncomfortable throwing terms like "Uncle Tom" around, but these people are either extremely ashamed of their skin colour or extremely ignorant of their faith. (I'm thinking the latter, given how dumb the average person in general seems to be.)

That being said, I hope our Islamist "comrade" is soon relegated to opposing ideologies.

[EwokUtopia]

If religion and political power were completly divorced, I would have no problem with any religion, to each their own. but unfortunately good spiritual beliefs have been corrupted into systematic methods of control, Jesus would not have listened to Pat Buchannon, nor would Muhammad have stoned gays. Both of their teachings have been corrupted immensly in the last millenia. Christianity was good until Roman Imperialists took it for their own, and made the bible in the 4th century. people allways corrupt good beliefs to get more power, Just look how corrupted Marx's beliefs were made in the Soviet Union, or even worse, the Peoples Republic of China. I have little problem with the spiritual aspects of religion, my beef is with theology. Theology turns a metaphorical view on higher existance into some story about why we should belong to a certain institution over any other. to me "god" is not some divine superbeing, but rather an abstract notion of a higher existance to which everything is a part, and I can appreciate teachings in almost any religion as a metaphorical look on this concept. I hate when these views are taken as the only explaination and people get so sucked into their own belief that they rule anyone else as a heretic, a blasphemer, and ultimately wrong. Every religion, including institutionalized Atheism, is guilty of this.

In the end, I dont hate religion, indeed I love many things in various spiritual beliefs around the world. I absolutly despise however, institutions based on theological belief. I trust Christian institutions least because of their historical ties to imperialism and its clerical nature.

[Janus]

Let's see, in no particular order:

Christians, especially the Baptists who think everyone except them will burn in hell.

Roman Catholics, their policies have major repercussions particularly in Latin America and Africa.

Islam, some of their reactionary ideas, particularly the fundamentalist ones, are despicable.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 05:13 PM


Atleast someone here appreciates us.

Your religion sickens me.
Whatever you say to me I will respond, "May the same be upon you".

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 12 2006, 03:19 AM--> (Johnny Anarcho @ Jun 12 2006, 03:19 AM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 05:13 PM


Atleast someone here appreciates us.

Your religion sickens me.
Whatever you say to me I will respond, "May the same be upon you". [/b]
Atheism isn't a religion my Islamic pal.

[Brekisonphilous]

I have respect for people of all faiths, but despise most institutions.
I'm agnostic.

1. Catholicism (inquisistion, about as reactionary as they come)
2. Fundamentalist Christianity
3. Islam

[CrazyModerate]

You are all racists.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 02:15 AM
If religion and political power were completly divorced, I would have no problem with any religion, to each their own. but unfortunately good spiritual beliefs have been corrupted into systematic methods of control, Jesus would not have listened to Pat Buchannon, nor would Muhammad have stoned gays. Both of their teachings have been corrupted immensly in the last millenia. Christianity was good until Roman Imperialists took it for their own, and made the bible in the 4th century. people allways corrupt good beliefs to get more power, Just look how corrupted Marx's beliefs were made in the Soviet Union, or even worse, the Peoples Republic of China. I have little problem with the spiritual aspects of religion, my beef is with theology. Theology turns a metaphorical view on higher existance into some story about why we should belong to a certain institution over any other. to me "god" is not some divine superbeing, but rather an abstract notion of a higher existance to which everything is a part, and I can appreciate teachings in almost any religion as a metaphorical look on this concept. I hate when these views are taken as the only explaination and people get so sucked into their own belief that they rule anyone else as a heretic, a blasphemer, and ultimately wrong. Every religion, including institutionalized Atheism, is guilty of this.

In the end, I dont hate religion, indeed I love many things in various spiritual beliefs around the world. I absolutly despise however, institutions based on theological belief. I trust Christian institutions least because of their historical ties to imperialism and its clerical nature.
Right on.

[LSD]

You are all racists.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate?

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:20 AM

You are all racists.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate?
I think he's talking about the anti-religious discrimination.

[LSD]

Then he shouldn't use the word "racism" since it refers solely to discrimination based on race.

[BobKKKindle$]

As leftists we should not "support" any religious movement

You Cannot relegate Islam to a religous movement alone. Like Many forms of ideology, it has a political aspect as well. Yes, Political Islam (sharia) is oppressive, homophobic, and genreally exploitative the same as Capitalism. I will not deny that. But the greatest force preventing the occurance of Revolution is not religion; it is the political and economic hegemony of the United States. You no doubt know what happened in Chile when Allende Came to power. The Same thing could happen again.

Now, Let us be pragmatic. Revolutionary leftism is hardly considered to be feasible Course for the vast majority of the World's population. So Surely we should take advanatge of any allies that we come across? In the Same way as Many Reds choose to side with Greens, because both worker exploitation and enviornmental destruction are the results of Capitalism, it is naturally for us to side with Islam, because both Islamic States and Revolutionary leftists want to see the overthrow of American imperialism, and American Imperialism is itself linked to Capitalism.


They have nothing to do with socialism

Zakāt (also Zakaat or Zakah; Arabic: زكاة‎ Classical Arabic: زكوة, Turkish: Zekât, English:tax, alms, tithe) is the third of the Five Pillars of Islam in Sunni Islam and one of the Branches of Religion in Shi'a Islam. Zakât refers to spending a fixed portion of one's wealth for the poor and needy in the society.

Aiding the Disposessed? Sure, its Not Revolutionary, but Helping those who are disenfranchised under Capitalism sounds like Socialism to me LSD. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion.


Rather we should encouraged all workers everywhere to join a secular and practical international movement against imperialism and capitalism.

However, if that is not possible, and religion was the only means through which these workers would gain an anti-imperialist standpoint, then Radical Islam is fit for support. Do not think I am pro-Organised Religion. After the revolution, I will happily stand shoulder to shoulder with you in stamping out all superstition. But do you really think saying 'We hate Islam and all religion' will allow the Proletariat to unite as a unified body and overthrow western Capitalism? That is What the Capitlaists want to happen ; it is in their interests to maintian religous and nationalistic strife so as to prevent fundamental Class struggles from emerging over these other antagonisms. The Best way to combat imperialism is through a United Front.


imperialist stooges

I would never support something unconditionally, like the Communist parties in Western Europe did with Stalinism. But Surely States like Iran who let their voices be heard and oppose US Hegemony should be supported? By all means, once again, when the US has withdrawn its Imperialist hold on the Nations of the world, let us crush religion with no mercy. But until then, lets not create yet more disagreements amidst the anti imperialist camp.


Islam today is probably the most destructive and oppressive ideology in the world

No, Imperialism and Capitalism (which are of course inextricably linked) are far more destructive and oppressive. We are living in an age of a clash of civilizations - A Clash of Western Capitalist and Hegemony and Islam. Which Side would you rather triumph LSD? Are you going to side with Imperialism?


Praying to Allah never aided the Proletariat

Creating Disagreements amongst those who opposse imperialism will not aid the Proletariat. And the worst thing we can do in our struggle against Imperialist dominance is to start a war on two fronts, so to speak; one against Islam, the other against the US. Every American Solider that dies in Iraq is a Victory for Both Socialism and Islam, every 'Al Zarqawi' that dies is a Loss for both Socialism and Islam.

[LSD]

Yes, Political Islam (sharia) is oppressive, homophobic, and genreally exploitative the same as Capitalism. I will not deny that. But the greatest force preventing the occurance of Revolution is not religion; it is the political and economic hegemony of the United States.

Undoutably, but that does not mean that we should support any oppressive ideology that happens to oppose it.

I've used this example before, but it bears repeating: what if a neo-nazi group were to vandalize a McDonalds because it hired immigrants? Should we support that "attack" against our "collective enemy" or should we condemn it as the racist filth it is.

Political Islam is no different. It may view the US as its enemy as well, but that is merely due to the unavoidable nature of American imperialism. That is, it's so blatantly obvious that it's Americans and American corporations at the heart of the middle easts' problems, that no moement even claiming "liberate" legitimacy could ignore it.

Despite that, though, political Islam actually manages to still relegate American imperialism to a "product" of a "greater problem": specifically, the "abandonment of Allah's word" and the "defilement of his holy places". If only the Islamic world were to adopt Salafic "law" and unify as one Islamic empire ...the problems of Imperialism would "dissapear".

Not only that, but even the US is often portrayed as some sort of "puppet" of the true enemy, namely the "Jews".

So while, superficially, Islam is fighting the same imperialist enemy, in reality it is merely using an anti-imperialist line to support its own ultimately imperialist and theorcratic aims.

That makes Islam as much an enemy of communism as any other regressive "traditionalist" ideology present or historical.

Remember, "National Socialism" was also predicated on mock-"socialist" principles and in 1918, Germany was a defeated nation; occupied by foreign governments, crippled by imperialism. And so one could make the argument, and indeed many did, that an ideology like National Socialism was "progressive" for its time.

Even more dangerously, one could make the argument that Naziism could be "used" to fight a "common enemy". That's what the KPD thought, after all, when they allowed the Nazis to combat the liberals without serious challange.

Indeed, the KPD even removed "Jewish-sounding" candidates from their slate so that the Nazis would have less to attack them on. Better, they figured, to let the Nazis and the socialist (or "social fascists" as they called them) duke it out than to get involved.

I think we all know how that turned out. <_<

So why weren&#39;t the Nazis ultimately progressive? Why didn&#39;t their, initially, anti-imperialist stand turn out "for the best"? Because class relationships are more important than ideological "convictions".

The Nazi party for all its bluster about "German workers" was primarily a petty-bourgeois party which promised the traditional order and stability of "German life" against the "decadence" and instability of rapidly rushing modernity.

That is precisely that political Islam is offering to the middle east. In the arab world, of course, there is also something which Germany did not have, namely a significant peasant population which is, in large part, playing the part of the German artisans.

The leaders of political Islam are all decidely petty-bourgeois or bourgeois, while the rank and file is virtually all peasant and serf.

The proletariat, however has nothing to gain from it and so the international proletariat movement cannot support it.


Now, Let us be pragmatic. Revolutionary leftism is hardly considered to be feasible Course for the vast majority of the World&#39;s population. So Surely we should take advanatge of any allies that we come across?

Absolutely, but political Islam is not an ally, potential or otherwise.

There are many ideologies which oppose the present socieconomic order, but only those which do so in a progressive direction can be supported.

Fascists, after all, oppose the bourgeois state as presently constructed; primitivists oppose the political and economic foundations of industrial society; and political nihilists oppose any society whatsoever.

Does that mean that we should "unite" with fascists and nihilists in the first world? Should we "tolerate" racist attacks on black communities or antisemitic attacks on Jews?

Well, why not? They&#39;re not doing anything significantly worse than political Isalmists and they are certainly fellow "enemies of the state".

You see this is where "enemy of my enemy" thinking gets you; allied with fascists and jew-baiters for the "greater good". That may sound appealing to you, but it&#39;s a road I am not willing to go down.


Aiding the Disposessed? Sure, its Not Revolutionary, but Helping those who are disenfranchised under Capitalism sounds like Socialism to me LSD.

Actually, it sounds like tithe. You know, religiously mandaded "charity" and idealist theocratic nonsense about "kindness" being same sort of "solution" to the inherent disparity of class society.

Well, the reality is that rich people are not "charitable" as otherwise they wouldn&#39;t be rich. Oh, they might give out a few bucks now and then, but imagining that "tithes" can compensate for wage-slavery is pure and absolue delusion.

Not that Islam even really cares.

Implicit in Islamic law is the acceptance of political and economic hierarchy and an overt endorsement of "natural" inequalities.


But do you really think saying &#39;We hate Islam and all religion&#39; will allow the Proletariat to unite as a unified body and overthrow western Capitalism?

No.

I think that a strong and broad internationalist class-war approach will do that.

Opposing Islam, like opposing fascism and primativism, is merely an aspect of defending the workers against their political enemies.

Look, I am not proposing that we excluse Muslim workers from the internationalist agenda or any such idealist nonsense. Merely that we be honest in our assesment of the social role of religion and not "sugar coat" politics so that the "brown people" don&#39;t get offended.

Lying to the third world is patronizing and paternalistic. Communism is not compatible with religion and we cannot claim any differently. If that means that the third world is not ready for communism, so be it.

There are many more pressing reasons why that is so anyway.


But Surely States like Iran who let their voices be heard and oppose US Hegemony should be supported?

Define "supported".

Certainly, their anti-imperialist endeavours should be encouraged and endorsed; but their reactionary theocratic policies should not.

"Support" for a nation need not be absolute; on the contrary it can and should be entirely context dependent. As political leftist, we need to recognize the complex reality of the real world and never fall into the all too easy black-white trap.

The government of Iran is despicable and its policies must be opposed by any leftist worthy of the name. But if the US were to invade here, our support must be with the invaded.

Yeah, it&#39;s complicated, but that&#39;s life.


No, Imperialism and Capitalism (which are of course inextricably linked) are far more destructive and oppressive.

Capitalism and capitalist imperialism are indeed highly exploitive and, indirectly, oppressive; but in a definitively non-ideological sense.

That is, capitalism&#39;s inherent oppression stems from its practical enactment, not its ideological underpinings. So in terms of practicality, capitalism is by far the worst culprit; but from a solely ideological sense, Islam takes the cake.

Islam, after all, actualy advocates the oppression that it manifests. The suppression of dissidents, women, gays, minorities, etc.. is not a "by-product" or "natural consequence" of Isalmic aims; they are Islamic aims.

In other words, it&#39;s the same reason as why Naziism was more despicable than American "manifest destiny". Both were predicated on exploitation and racism and both resulted in some of the worst genocides in history.

But in the American case, it was as a result of policy; whereas in the German one, it was policy. That doesn&#39;t make 19th century America "moral", but it does make it more moral than the Nazis.

The same is true for capitalists.

The bosses and their state are oppressive bastards who profit at the misery of the world. But their motivation is self-serving. The Imams and Mullahs who enslave their female populations, however, have no interest but that oppression.

So while some capitalists should be permitted to live following a revolution, no punnishment is too harsh for the "clerics".


Creating Disagreements amongst those who opposse imperialism will not aid the Proletariat. And the worst thing we can do in our struggle against Imperialist dominance is to start a war on two fronts, so to speak; one against Islam, the other against the US.

No one is proposing a "war against Islam". At this point in time that simply would not be productive.

But that does not mean that we should "support" Islam either practically or ideologically.

Islam is an enemy of the working class and, next to imperialism, has done more damage to the middle east than any other social force in the world today. That doesn&#39;t mean that we should persecute Muslim workers or that Muslims do not have a role to play in combating imperialism. It merely means that we must recognize the social role that religion plays in the present class-struggle. And that, in the middle east especially, it acts as a barrier against true consciousness.

The workers of the world are being sieged from all sides and, yes, one side is definitely the bigger danger right now. But to ignore the other enemies, because they haven&#39;t done quite as much damage is suicidally naive.

Islam, political Islam, and social Islam are oppressive, exploitative and imutable enemies of the working class. Accordingly, they must be enemies of the working class movement.

There is simply no alternative.